Carnarvon and Denbigh Herald and North and South Wales Independent

UMIV»F.RS^TY V0R WALES. DEPUTATION TO THE TREASURY. GRANT OF £ 3000 PROMISED FOR THIS YEAR. ON Friday afternoon Sir William Harcourt, Chancellor of the Exchequer, received at the Treasury in Whitehall an exceptionally large and influential deputation from Wales (introduced by Lord Aberdare), who attended to make an Appeal for a Government grant, on behalf of the new Welsh University. Tao members of the deputation were Lord Aberdare, president of the University College of Wales, Aberystwyth, chair- man of the University Conference, and vice- president of the University College, Cardiff; the jiarquis of Bute, president of the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire Lord Swansea, chairman of the County Council of Glamorgan, and treasurer of the University College, Cardiff; Lord Kensington; Lord Bishop of Bangor; Mr W. Ratubone, M.P., president of the University College of North Wales; Mr T. E, Ellis M.P., Sir G. Osborne Morgan, M.P., Mr S. T. Evans, M.P., Mr C. F. E. Allen, M.P., Mr Rees Da vies, M.P., Mr Frank Edwards, M.P., Mr Bowen Rowlands, Q.C., M.P., Mi Brynmor Jones, Q.C., M.P., Mr Lloyd Morgan, M.P., Mr Samuel Smith,.LA.P-, Mr D. Lloyd-George, M.P., Mr Alfred Thomas, M.P., Major E. R. Jones, M.P-, Mr R. D. Bumie, M.P., Mr W. Pritchard Morgan, M.P., Aix Edwin Grove. J,P., chairman of tie County Council of Monmouth; Mr Trounce, the mayor of Cardiff; the mayor of Swansea, Mr D. Cameron; the mayor of Bangor, Colonel Savage, the deputy-mayor of Bangor; Dr Iambard Owen, London; the Hon. W. N. Bruce, Charity Commission; Mr Alderman A. Davies, Glamorgan Mr Alderman R. ^Martin, Swansea: Mr Alderman William Sanders, Cardiff; Mr Councillor Freeman, Swansea; Mr Councillor J. C. Carter, Radnorshire Principal Jones, University College, Cardiff; Principal Reichel, University College, Bangor; Principal Boberts, University College, Aberystwyth Prof. Augus, University College, Aberystwyth Mr B. Daniel, chairman Ahersychan Local Board, Monmouthshire Rev W. Hanker Hughes, Jesus College, Oxford; Rev G. Hortwell Jones, Jesus College, aud Nuttield, Surrey; Air S. D. Orme, keadmaster Beaumaris Grammar School; Mr T. E. Morris Temple, Mr William Davies (Myn- orydd), London Mr William Evans (Board of Trade), Mr T. Merchant Williams, London; Professor T. W. Rhys Da vide. London; Dr Frederick T. Roberts, London; Dr Yeats, Chep- stow; Mr W-. Cadwaladr Davies, joint secretary University Conference Mr Ivor James, joint secretary University Conference; Professor Powel, secretary of the Senate, Cardiff; Mr H. Bulkeley, J.P., chairman Bangor University College Council; Rev J. illorgan Jones, Cardiff; Mr Edward Davies, Llandinam ltty D, Rees, Anglesey; Rev D. P. Davies, Penmaenmawr; Mrs Verney, Anglesey Rev Richard Roberts, London; Dr John Roberts, Chester; Mr Isaac Roberts, Crowborough, Sussex; Rev Gwynoro Davies, Barmouth Mr S. C. Evans-Williams, Radnorshire; Mr T. J. Thomas, London; Mr Stephen Evans, London; Rev T. T. Lucius Morgan, Miss Armstrong, London Mr P. Mostyu Williams, Rhyl; Mr W. Morgan, J.P., Tre- herbert; Mr Alderman Robert Scourfield, Lian- stephen; Mr Oavid Leysbon, Pontypridd Mr T, W. W. Idris, J.P., Mr Deputy Hughes, Mr Aaron Davies, Mr John Daniel, chairman West Uni- versity School; Mr L- A. Taylor, chairman School Board, Risca Mr Robert Evans, governor University College, Aberystwyth; Mr F. J. Moffatt; London; Mr W. G. Williams, Bed- ■Wellty; Rev John Morgan Jones, Cardiff; Mr R. Martin, Swansea; Mr D. Williams, High- sheriff, Aberdare, &c. LORD ABERDARE INTRODUCING THE DEPUTATION. Lord Aberdare said: I have the honour, sir, of introducing to you a deputation which on my own authority I may venture to say is as thoroughly representative of Wales as any that could have been selected, If the numbers appear to you insufficient, I may inform you that at least 30 gentlemen whom we expected to see here have been struck down by influenza. However, I think you will be of opinion that it is amply representative of Wales, and shows that we come upon a matter of the greatest possible interest to the Principality. You are well aware that for many years past we have been labouring, not without a great deal of encouragement from srcceseive Governments, to found a system of education for Wales. The elementary school system rests on a broad basis and in no part of the British Empire [do the returns show a more eager desire to profit by that education than throughout Wales. In other itespects our condition was truly wretched. The number of our intermediate schools was very small. There were three or four really good ones, but they were lost in the great district of country for which the supply was necessary. We felt thr need of higher education, of collegjf** and, o8 you know, a Royal Commit o. fcisu'ed and a thorough inquiry was wan tlje results of which I need not trc/uoii. because in the brief aad pithy memorik petition with which you have been furnished ak the ;main facts are set forth. It rests with you? air, whether or not we are able to complete the edifice of which the foundation has been laid. If we are entirely unsuccessful to-day we retire baffled and beaten without having before us any clear means of availing ourselves of the advantages we have derived from the grant of the charter. You cannot admit that in asking for a sum of E3000 for the present year we have shown very re- markable moderation. There is another reason why I should ask you not to disappoint us. Wales has suffered grievously in the past, and in nothingl more, I Jthink, than the absence of one common centre of light and education such as the other three portions of th« Empire enjoy in abundance. When Scotland first had its four Universities—the effect of which on the Scotch character and on their careers all over the world is so strikingly felt-the population of Scotland Was nothing like what the population of Wales is now, and we had at that time a very inferior elementary system, and next to no intermediate system. In the dismal history of Ireland the one bright page—almost the only one I can recollect —is the institution of the University of Dublin- Trinity College-wliicii produced some of the greatest men that do honour to their common country. Wales has had no centre of that sort. Tbeywere told to go to the English universities and they went, and anyone who examines the records Will see to what good purpose they went. But that did not furnish what we wanted. Men like Archbishop Williams and others went there and obtained a good education, but remained in Bogland to avail themselves of it. They did not return home to be centres of light in Wales, Which would have been the case had there been j a university, and I am sure you will fed in a moment that we may havo been able to produce a great number of considerable men-smalie,- iiiiakespeares and smaller Miltons—who have disappeared into obscurity f"r the want of a local university (hear, hear). In the very hort time that our colleges have been established- the oldest a little over twenty years, and the others just over ten years-we have already produced some remarkable men. For in- stance, the gentleman chosen to report to the Government on the state of higher education in Wales—Mr Oweu Edwards—was a pupil of Aberystwyth, and we have present amolig us no less remarkobla 11 inaa—the present. president of Aberystwyth—who was himself also a pupil of that college (hear, hoar). And when you look about among the Welsh members to find an > adequate representative you cannot find a better man than Mr Ellis (hear," hear). It would be end if for want of a small sum of money the realisa- tion of all our hopes should be You my ask us. If it is 1'0 small, why don't you find it yourselves." Tiisj petition shows that for the three colleges we have since 1863—and mainly during the last two or three years— collected a Bum little dl.Jrt. of £ 20,00; aud we have other branches of education for which Wales has had to fin i about '£:W'J,O!JO more. When we had the advantage of having a local taxation grant given to us, Wales did not do as Some other places did, and did not hesitate at once to apply that sum to the purposes of educa- tion. We iiavrt now provided an intermediate system of education. We have collected some £ 50,000 or £ 30,000 in addition to that sum appropriated out of the local taxation grant, and there are various other institurio-is—the theo- logical and Nonconformist. colleges—all of which J have to be provided for our of the resources of Wales. Moreover, all this has to be do-ria, not over an extended period of years, as in some other districts, but with-ui a short time. I think the most generous of our supporters find them- selves exhausted. Yet such is the demand for knowledge that at ail tho toreo colleges large expenditure must be incurred to enable us to ful- fil our ergag-nneuts ro our students. This is done, although effectively, y-at. very shabbily, If you bad to g(-, over the buildings at Cardiff, you would say, all the meant, oi teaching may be excellent, but these are woodea structures more like the thirteenth or fourteenth century than like the present century, or like, a town each as Cardiff." Wo nuist, however, find the means of working the colleges, and we | have large sums to pro viae. I behove the case is if it i, happened^ at all. where universities ha vt» not iece:ved assistance from the State. T: io interests of the -university are bound up wj'ih the interests of the country (he.?, ho-vr). avo doing a areat work-a greut national work—which is already producing a great influet; ee in Wales, and we are sure we shall not appeal to you in vain to give 1 us what assistance you Can. We wish to acknowledge most warmly the assistance we have had from the Government. We got a grant from Mr Gladstone's former Government and from Lord Salisbury's Government, and now the pissing of the charter 1111.1 been greatly I assisted by the goodwill showu to us by her I Majesty's preseut Government (cheers). BPKKCH BY LORD BUTE. The Marquess of Bute, who was next called upon, said he had been asked, as president of the University College of South Wales, to sup- port the request which had been ?et forth by Lord Aberuare. He did so with all the more pleasure because he was able to do so without troubling the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a speech, since all that he could have said, either on the general question or on the details, had been, or would be, more ably preseuted by others. He desired only to call attention to the parallel case of the Scottish Universities, and the subsidies they had habitually received. These cases included, for instance, the University of St. Andrew's, with which he (the marquess) had at present the honour of being officially connected, and now the total number of students there was less than that of the aggregate number in attendance at the three Walsh colleges how incorporated into a university. Yet these Scotch universities enjoyed fund? which were the result of old benotactions-pn advantage which it was, of course, by the very nature of things, impossible that the new Welsh university could at present enjoy. All that was asked by the deputation at the present moment was a comparatively small subsidy to enable them to get the now university into working order (hear, hear, and applause). SPIUCff BY THR SENIOR WBL8H M.P. Sir G. O. Morgan said that as the senior member for Wales, and as one who for 40 years had taken a deep interest in the educational movement which had just culminated in the establishment of a National Welsh University, he had been asked to say a few words. He was aware that the present was not a very propitious time for approaching a Chancellor of the Ex- chequer, but their requests were modest, and the ground on which they were based were substantial. Put into a few words, the voluntary efforts of Wales in the cause of higher education might be summed up thus :-Under the Intermediate Education Act which had been adopted by every county in Wales, they had initiated a system of secondary education which was breathing new life into the old and decaying grammar schools of the Principality. For this purpose, independently of the rate authorised by the Act, they had collected between £ 50,000 and £ 60,0u»0. They had established three uni- versity colleges, all of which were doing admirable work, and were, moreover, eacte acquiring a distinctive character of their own. Thus Cardiff, in the heart of t'ae great industrial counties of Glamorgan and Monmouth, was becoming an important school of engineering, and Bangor, in the midst of a rural district, had at a cost of XSOO a year developed a scheme of scientific agricultural education, which the central chamber of agriculture had in its report pronounced to be a model for every other scheme in the Eingdom. For the establishment and support of these three colleges they had collected a sum ot nearly £ 230,000—not merely in large sums, but by collections at chapel doors in half-crowns, in shillings, and even in pence. One instance would suffice, At a time of great depression, thePenrhyn quarry men had collected out of their hard earnings a sum of S1004, aad handed it over to the treasurer ot Bangor College without any condition as to the class or the locality which was to be benefited by it. For many years past a national university had been first the dream and then the settled object of the Welsh educationalists, who felt, not without reason, that university colleges without a university were something like a solar system without a sun. Now the dream had been realised, and this university was an accomplished fact. It was needless to remind so distinguished a university man as the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer that a university could not be carried on without funds. It might be invidious to refer to the very large capital sums which from time to time had been granted to Scotch and Irish universities for building and other purposes. For Wales they asked no capital grant, but the very modest annual sum of X3000, and where such extraordinary efforts had already been made by a very poor country, it was surely not unreasonable to expect the State to supplement what Mr Acland a day or two ago very kindly, but at the same time very truly called the splendid generosity of private individuals of every class, from the richest to the poorest" (loud applause). ADDRESS BY LORD SWA NIB A. Lord Swansea, who next spoke, thought he might say that he appeared there as one who was able, from personal contact with the peoplo of a very large nortion of Wales, to represent that their educational LHe could confirm de by Lord r occurred t extent to educational the Local 'jk M once, and wi Alxovl, devoted ents JPs (hear, hear). The^w^ fRhondda Valley, district, had been from the eager to have.in- termediate schools established. They had now nearly finished their intermediate schools; he believed they in Glamorgan go ere quite as far advanced, if not further advanced, than any portion of Wales. Now they hoped and desired that the Government would see its way, althovfgh he admitted under somewhat adverse circumstances but, still, see its way, to complete the good work which former Goverments and the present Government had done in furthering Welsh education. Wales had not been backward in providing funds. A very large amount was contributed annually by Wales, and a Vt'ry large capital amount, some- thing like £ 400,000, had been raised in Wales-a poor country—for the advancement of higher education. Their earnest prayer now was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would, by the grant of a comparatively small sum, enable the Welsh people to crown the work which this Government and other Governments had so liberally contributed to. They in Wales would be proud to feel that a Liberal Government that thtli were so earnest in siipporting-(hear, hear) —had really put the crowning stone to the educational ed;!ice (cheers). MAJOB JONEB'S SPKHCH. MAJOR JONES'S SPKHCH. Major Jones, U,P" said tliert3 was no part of their imtury that they were so proud of HS that which recounted the ptruortjle of their people for higher education. The first demand for the three national colie^as ctme from the Welsh people, and it cams in the Welsh language. In sutisfaciion of that demaud the colleges were established The machinery was now about 1., he completed by the educationalists txp'-r.'s in ed'icition, but that could not I)a •ii.ti.^ui'roniy done without furds. They looked UpOIJ the granting of the charter as a declaration ot we. on the side of e'luce.tion, and they ventured to Imp* thas the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer woul i remember the arrears that were Ii I\ t them the arrears that reflected in- different credit upon past Governments. SIlt WILLIAM HAQCOUBT'S REPLY. Sir William Harcourt then rose to reply, and was coMiali'y received, He said: Lord Aber- rtare, ixr; Lor-is and Ge-tlenexl,-j need not cummouae 1)y assuring this deputation of the really sincere sympathy whicti f and tha Government fael with the objects of this depu- tation (hear, he;r). It is true, as several speakers have said, and it is recognised that this is not the most propitious or favourable moment to assemble in the board room of the Treasury (laughter). I do not know whether you tmvd o >rue to spy nut the nakedness of the land (mors Uughter). I una afraid, if you aro spies, you will not carry back great heaps of grapes from this cb«*mbe (renewed lau.rhter). It i* "Il oi l saving t!vj.t it is difficult for an empty sack to tmri upright (laughter). But still, gentlemen, iti wiiich, I thtok. commend it really with pressing fince upon the consideration of the Government (cheers). We recognise the great necessities of advance of education in Wales. We recognise that W'ile-1; is rot a country of great resources io. p tint of wealth, aad we h's ) recognise that it bl made considerable—I may say great — evenions; in this cause, which I will take liiii liberty of saying is one of the fit-at on- dition up'<n which a Government oupht to iii-tat, before briugiug in tne 1i 1 of the funds of i:State. I think the gentlemen who have sp .ken have recognised that the Govern- ni'Uitfc; of all parties in recent days ;i.ve not been careless of the cause < Wehh education. They bad not been care- ,õ1 a1.} of r!.1 fact that "\?aI4s i-3 les* 1.:1., than I-otsier parts of the country to cont.nbi.ue co its is toe fact that the eon. r.rhntiori to th^se Welsh colleges oil a iru- iii^hec .sc-iie ;han that to the colleges Ül England. There hre three colleges m Wales which receive now £ 12 000 which is at tlie rate of £ 4000 for each college, and I think that none of the colleges of England receive more than and most of them only £!20n, as It con- tribntion from thn funds of the State, Besides' that, I need not remind you that, as regards 'intermediate education. is bu additional grant amounting to a year, which was not given in England for similar purposes. Now I mention that circumstance for the purpose of pointing out that the Government has not been indifferent to the wants aud needs of Welsh education, but when you come to the question ot the new university that is to be established, certainly no man who has derived the advantage and blessing to the degree that I have which Cd-n be afforded by a university, will be wanting in a sense of what this advaut'tges ) so conferred are. I had the very great advantage in early life of being brought up, I may sty. under the roof of perhaps the most distinguished Welsh scholar—perhaps one of the greatest scholars of modern tunes-I mean Sir John Cornwall Lewis-who was certainly one of the highest products of English university education, and %ho always remained in his home and heart a Welshman in Radnorshire, where I spent many of the happiest of my early days. Therefore, I recogatse that in the uni- versities you have, in fact, the crowning edifice of the system of education. Well, therefore, I certainly would make, even under great difficulties, an effort to supply the wants of Wales m this respect (cheers). You ask me—and 1 ci no further than the request you make for (he present year, as I understand-to contribute E3000 to the Welsh University. J. am prepared to do tbrat (loud cheers). In doing that, I have followed the example which has been followed with respect to the colleges, because it is one half more, and I wish you to consider the real amount of my generosity -(laughter) -the effort I am making when I tell you it is one half more than is given to the Victoria University iu Lancashire. Now, of the future, 1 can say nothing. Human life is uncertain. Official life is still more un- certain—(laughter)—and, therefore, I can make no promise that will bind the future or that will bind my successor, but I am bound to call your attention to the fact that I think you ought to consider what are the estimates of your tuture expenditure, and, comparing these with the expenditure of the Victoria University, I am rather struck by the fact that you apprehend that your university is to cost three times as much as the Victoria University. I find, for instance, that for the whole staff you put down here the administrative expenses at £ 3,60J, which are, in point of fact, equal to the whole expenditure of the Victoria University. I find that the official salaries—a delicate subject, undoubtedly, for persons in my position to deal with—put down at X725. Then, I find it put down in the estimate cf your university the stipend of the registrar at £ 300. Now, these are matters which I think are deserving of your consideration. I am not, of course, in a position to deal with these matters, because I do not understand the details, but I should hope, con- sidering the large contributions that are made to the colleges in Wales, that it might not be impossible for the colleges in Wales-I do not mean money, but at all events, by assistance in persons-to very much relieve the expenditure on the staff of the university. I would throw out the suggestion whether it might not be pos- sible to get an official of the university colleges ts act as registrar of the university at a less cost than X600 a year. I see again, here, put down for the Victoria University in Lancashire, the examiners' fees and expenses at X1600. and the stipend of the examiners alon., upon this esti- mate of the Welsh University, without fees and expenses, is put down at £ 5^40 (laughter). Those seem to me to be comparative figures, highly deserving of the careful revision of the persons charged with these expenses. I put this forward for your consideration to see how far. in starting this new enterprise of what is, as I understand, an examining university, very much on the model of the University of London, you might not be able to get at a very moderate rate assistance from the existing university colleges. It is a new enterprise. You have made what seemed to me under the circum- stances a reasonable demand. For the present I have great satisfaction in being able to grant it. I think it is one of the few things that in this year of office I am granting to anybody (laugh- ter). I have felt the necessity of using that most useful of monosyllables "No" to every request almost that has been made to the Treasury. But, gentlemen, under th3 present circumstances, for so great and worthy an object, I will, at all events, make an effort to supply your present demand, in granting you a sum of X3000 to start the University of Wales (loud cheers). Lord Aberdare, in proposing a vote of thanks to Sir William Harcourt, said they could not admit the parity in all things of the conditions of the colleges between which Sir William had drawn a comparison, At the same time, a fresh demand would be made upon the Treasury without a most exhaustive re-considcration of future expenses. Mr Rath bone seconded the vote of thanks. which was cordially adopted, and the deputation withdrew.