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DEVOLUTION OF POWERS SCHEME.

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DEVOLUTION OF POWERS SCHEME. PROPOSALS CRITICISED. INTERVIEW WITH Mil M. WARREN. In the event of tha scheme for conferring upon a Welsh central body-composed of delegates from County and County Borough Councils- certain powers now exercised by the Local Government Board and other State Departments, the bodies mostly affected in Wales and Mon- mouthshire would be the Urban and Rural Sani- tary Authorities, who would then have to go to* the proposed Welsh Central Council instead of to the Local Government Board for sanction to loans, for provisional orders and for other various matters. This being so, one of our representative3 sought an interview with Mr M. Warren, clerk to the Llandaff and Dinas Powis Rural S-initary Authority, the largest Rural Authority in the whole Principality. Mr Warren, when first seen, was by no means disposed to pass any opinion upon the scheme as framed by the Shrewsbury joint committee of county councillors and Welsh M.P.'a, regarding the movement In the' present stage as oue affecting policy rather than administration. Yielding, however, to pressure, Mr Warren consented to go carefully through the proposals, aDd to give the Pressman some idea of-how they would work out in practice. The interview whiuh follows took place a couple of days later. This Welsh scheme," suggested our represen- tative, is, I take it, very much more comprehen- sivethEm anything contemplated under Section 10 of the Local Government Act, 1888, which permits of devolution of powers ?" That is so, undoubtedly," replied Mr Warren, because that section contemplates only the transfer of those powers to existing authori- ties. that id to say. to individual County Councils, or to a group of County Councils, and in the latter case a joint committee must be appointed to execute those powers, and the powers would relate only to matters arising within the respective counties, and would be strictly of an administrative character, Now, the transfer would be granted by means of a provisional order, issued by the Local Government Board, but that provisional order would have to be confirmed by Parliament." And is this not the procedure that will apply to-the Welsh scheme ?" What is apparently now contemplated is the formation of a new Welsh Central Council which is to be representative of all the County Councils of Wales and Monmouthshire and of the county boroughs of Cardiff, Newport, and Swan- sea. These Councils are to send so many repre- sentative s. each to the new Council. Now the point that arises there is this- Who is to appoint these representatives ?" But does not Section 10 provide for that ?" No," answered Mr Warren, because, you see, Section 10 relates to existing Councils. whereas what is now proposed is to confer these powers upon an entirely new body." "'How so ? A new body it may be, but to all intents and purposes it would merely be a joint committee of grouped County Councils as con- templated by the Act ?" I doubt whether you could bring in county boroughs within that section. That is a very nice point. Bat, assuming for a moment that delegates) from County Borough Councils could be elected on this joint committee or Central Council, then this objection would arise—that these representatives of tha municipal bodies would necessarily have to Bit in judgment upon applications for loans and various othec matters emanating from their own bodies." And would not the same objection apply to representatives of County Councils ?" No, certainly not, for Connty Councils are not Local SanitaryAuthorities under the Public Health Act, and would never need to make any applica- tioas under the powers that are now proposed to be transferred to the new Central Council. If you include County Borough Councils, then 1 repeat the point will arise, how are their representatives to be appointed, for it does not appear that the Local Government Act under which this joint committee would be elected includes these municipal bodies for this particular purpose." A, But this, I take it, could be remedied by a clause in the special Act of Parliament, the intro- duction of which is contempiated in the Shrews- bury scheme ?" Oh, of course; but the anomaly I have pointed out would still exist; and if special representation is to be given to County Borough Councils, which are Sanitary Anthorities, it may be asked why other Urban Authorities and Rural District Councils are to be excluded ?" Then in what respects does this scheme differ from the scheme of a joint committee of Connty Councils contemplated under Section 10 ?, Well, I should say there is no difference if you exclude the county boroughs." But even if county boroughs were excluded, an Act of Parliament would still be necessary to confirm the provisional order granting the transfer of powers." Yes that is so." Now, Mr Warren, as to that schedule of the powers to be asked for. Does that schedule con- tain any powers in excess of the powers contem plated for trprihfer under Section 10?" I do not think it does but I should say, at the same time, in respect of one or two of these powers that are sought, that they are powers the transfer of which many local authorities might not be prepared to support. Take the powers to sanction loans and to grant provisionaJ orders for various purposes," But," urged the Pressman, if these powers are excluded, the proposed Central Council would be a very useless body indeed ?" Mr Warren agreed; and added :—" I should say that without these two powers it would be matter for very serious consideration whether the existence of such a central body-which would, in effect, be a State Department—would be justified." But why should local authorities not support the transfer of these particular powers ? Would not applications of thb nature—for loans and pro- visional orders—be very much better adjudicated upon by a Central Council such as is proposed than by a Sta.te Department composed mainly of permanent officials ?" So is is claimed by the promoters of the scheme. I observe that Sir John Jones Jenkins, M.P., ia his interview with you remarked— The scheme is one that will undoubtedly prove of very great advantage to Wales, especially in passing Bills for tramways, electric lights, water works, etc., for the new central body would have power to grant provisional orders for such purposes, and so the enormous expense incidental to going to London for these powers would be avoided. Many local under- takings are now stifled at their birth by this initial expense, and a lessening of this expense will give a stimulus to local enterprise. Further, a central body of that kind, composed of repre- sentatives elected by County Councils, would be much better able to gange local requirements than any official sent down from London to hold inquiries." And is that not a contention with which yon would agree ?" Well, so far as my experlence goes, as clerk to this authority, the largest of its kind in Wales, we have no complaint to make of any nnneces. sary delay under the present system. I find that our loans sanctioned during last year represent one-thud of the total loans sanctioned to Rural Authorities for the whole of Wales, and they were principally loans for water supply and sewerage The system is this. The schemes for such works, when submitted to the Local Government Board, are examined by their expert engineers, one of whom holds a local inquiry, visits the spot, taKes local evidence, and satisfies himself generally as to the necessity for the works. The Councils making the application alfto get the value of the experienced supervision of these engineers. Were it not for such supervision local authorities, in some instances, would find it necessary to "submit their schemes to expert engineers and incur con- siderable expsnse in that way before submitting them to the Department." These are advantages undoubtedly, but would these advantages not still be within reach of RuraJ Councils were the proposed change made ?" That, of coarse, would depend upon whether the Central Council engaged an experienced engineering staff for such a purpose, or whether it would adopt the methods now adopted by County Councils of holding local inquiries by three of their own members." II But does it not follow, Mr Warren, that if these powers are transferred to a Central COUD" oil the Government must of necessity provide that body with the wharewithal in the form of a State grant to enable it to execute these powers, and so engage an experienced engineering staff to do the work now done in London ?" Well, if th%t is so, the objection to a certain. extent would b8 removed," But not entirely removed." No, not entirely, because it is now only pro- k. 50,J;1¡dCt .frora tluriijjeftf Gflyewnwint a Board the power relating to the sanction of I loans the power of seeing that the loans are properly applied, when granted, would still re- maio with the Local Government Board," But is that so ?" I think so and my point is that the body that sanations the loans should also be the body to see that the loans are properly applied. This power of supervision is not proposed to be trans- ferred." Then as to Sir John Jones Jenkibs's arga- ment of economy—it would be an advantage, would it not, to have a body at home to giant provisional orders, and so save the expense of going to London ?" Let us look at the scheme," replied Mr War- ren. and see how it would work out. The only powers that are sought to be transferred to the Central Council arc the administrative powers of the Local Government Board, the Board of Trade, and other Departments, which extend only i to the making of provisional orders. These pro- j visional orders would still require the confirma- tion of Parliament, and if opponents of these orders petition Parliament; to be heard aga,inst them the orders would take the form of private Bills, and would be referred to a Committee of the House. The position, then, in this respect would be entirely unaffected by the transfer." Then your point is this, that what expense there is in connection with provisional orders is I incurred, not so much iu getting them made, as in getting them confirmed by Parliament ?" That is the main source of expense." And so the saving in this respect would not be great ?" It would net be affected at all, either in the making or in the confirmation," Then there would be no advantage in a change ?" None, I should say-not, at any rate, from the point of view of expense. Some of the powers which are now proposed to be transferred to a Central Council might, perhaps, with advantage be transferred to the existing bodies." 4< And might they not with equal a,d vantage be transferred to a central body ?" Well, you see, it would mean the constituting of a. new body, with the expense connected with it. Ai a matter of fact, in their present form it is very difficult to value the proposals of the pro- moters of the scheme. Thay may, perhaps be grasped better when the rcheme is incorporated in a Bill, as suggested it will then be in a more concrftte form." Then, as to the broad question of the desira- bility for such a change-are you prepared to express any opinion ?" No," replied Mr Warren warily, I don't think so That is a question of policy which I would. rather not discuss."

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