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The Welsh Scandal,

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The Welsh Scandal, II ACTION AGAINST A PONTY- PRIOD MINISTER. The Defendant Goes Into the Witness- Box at the Resumed Hearing of the Case at Shrewsbury Yesterday. Mir. Abel Thomas, Q.C., M.P., resumed the hearing of evidence in the alleged Welsh ministerial slander at Shrewsbury on Wednes- day. The action was brought by the Rev. G. J. W illiams, of the Congregational Church ai; firyjiteg, near \V rexhan1, to reCOVBr from the Rev. W. I. Morris, also a Congregational minister, at Pontypridd, the sum of j3500, damages for a slander said to be contained in a letter written about the plaintiff in March last. Mr. J. P. Cart-wright, of Chester, was for the plaintiff, and Mr. S. T. Evans, M.P. (instructed by Mr. W. R. Davies, Pontypridd), for the defendant. On the Arbitrator taking his seat on Wed- nesday he stated that he had received a very improper letter from the Rev. Vyrnwy Morgan, and was surprised that a gentleman in his posi- tion should write in such a way. He would take no further notice of the letter, but destroy it at once. DEPENDANT IN THE BOX. The defendant was then further examined by Mr. S. T. Evans, and said: i attended a meeting of the East Glamorgan Congregational Association, and attended a meeting on the 12th of April. I proposed a resolution, which was seconded by the Rev. J. Davies, and car- ned. The resolution was to urge the vacant Congregational Churches of the denomination throughout Wales to be on their guard in view of applications being made by a person who recelltlv left the denomination to wIuch he "belonged and became a member of a Gongrega- tionai Church for pulpit engagements as a can- didate for the ministry. 1 had nothing to do with putting a paragraph about the meeting in the newspapers. It was in the newspapers on the 14-th. Another minister suggested to me that it would be to the interest of the Church at Brynteg if a copy of the newspaper report were sent to Brynteg, to Mr. Ellis Roberts. I sent the cutting, with- out any comment. I thought it very desirable that the Church at Brynteg should know what was done at the meeting. I had no malice whatever towards Mr. Williams in what I did in the matter. I received a letter from Ivlr. Roberts, and, in reply, sent him the telegram already referred to, saying chat i. sent the cut- ting. I wrote to him on April 27 and May 26 the letters which were read yesterday. 1 had no malicious motive in writing the letters. I believed all that I stated in them to be true. I sent a. certificate from the Rev. J. R. J ones to show that Mr. Williams had re-joined the Baptist Church. I had heard before that lie had returned to it, and i went to the Rev. J. R. Jones, the pastor of the Church, for his certifi- cate. To Mr. Cartwright: I have been connected with the Congregacionalista all my life. 1 have been at Pontypridd 26 years. 1 iiave had some trouble at the Church—some divisions. I be- Calllb acquainted with NIL VV Il113,llld in 18SS. I wrote a letter to him in that year—a friendly letter. We had no correspondence after that until he joined the Congregationalists. After that other letters passed. i was not aware at that time that he was seeking supplies. Be ssked for a book in which to find the names of vacant Churches. Mr. Williams was bank- rupts and I knew of it. 1 never remonstrated with Mr. Williams or had any communication with him as to Brynteg. The àiS30ciatlOll to which the plaintiff was refused admission was not the one with which I am connected. I am not a member of the English Associa.ticn and never attend their meetings, except 11l a friendly way. 1 was at one the other day. 1 have Mended the services conuucted by the Rev. Vyrnwy Morgan years ago. 1 resided near Mr. Williams, but not in the same street. We have met in the street several times. After the two letters (March 6 and 8) were written, tlie. subsequent letters were written in con- sequence of Mr. Ellis Roberts's letter. My belief was that plaintiff was not a proper per- son for a pastor of a. Church. There was a meeting of the Welsh Association m January. That W;18 the last meeting before the one ou April E. When Mr. Jones wrote his certificate 1 was in one room and he was in another. 1 did not dictate the certificate to him; nothing of the sort. Mr. Cartwright: Now I will call your attention to this. Mr. Jcnes says in* his eeninoate ( desire to say to all con- cerned and who desire to know that the Rev. G. J. Williams, who joined the Inde- pendent. deruomiua1ti.or1 in this town, returned ■ 11 Sunday night with great repenta-nee, and upon special request the Church agreed to receive him dn Sunday night." And then he adds the words that "no words have been said about the story that he could preach 11P to nüw" Did you suggest these words? —Defendant I did not. 1 have heard what the Rev. Vyrnwy Morgan said about the admission of ministers into the Church. My experience relates to the Welsh only. To Mr. Evans: There is no difference between the two except what is superficial. I did 1wlp to start a new Congregational Church at Pontypridd, and I did it at my own personal loss, for many members left me. My Church is the Mother Church of Ponty- ■priad. There is another Chmch-Ziou. it has been formed about 24 years. I have officiated in the other church, and a friemEy feeling exists between the two Churches. The rejection of Mr. Williams's application for membership of the English Association took place twelve months before ibs rejection bv th", vF 813h Association. I teak 110 part whatever in the rejection .;f Mr. Williams; by the. English Association. EVIDENCE BY DEPENDANT S SOLICI- TOR. Mr. William R. Davies, solicitor, Ponty- pndd, said: I am acting for the defendant iu this matter. 1 am secretary and. deacon at the English Congregational Church at Pontypridd, and one of those who were for- merly members OIl IvlT. Morris's Chure:h, and who helped to start the new Church. In January. 1893, plaintiff wanted to become a member of the Congregational Church. The matter was discussed by the deacons. The Rev. V VlllWY Morgan mentioned the matter, and it war; disclosed in consequence. Two letters in support of it were also read. I was at the first Church meeting when it came forward. His name was submitted to the meeting, but there was no settlement at that time. The matter was adjourned. He was :on probation. That as the rule. No transfer letter was produced by him. Mrs. Williams became a member, and the same course was adopted in regard to her as to her husband. -Mr. Mor.gMi and Mr. W. M. Jones proposed Mr. Williams as a full member of the ChlFCh. .Not a syllable was said about his béin9' accepted as a preacher. On the following Sunday Com- munion Service took place, and, according to Usual custom, the new members would be announced. Mr. Williams was there. Mr. Morgan said nothing- more then than on any other similar occasion. He said he hoped Mr. Williamij's settlement amongst us would be a happy one. He made no reference whatever to }fr. Williams having bæn a Baptist. From the first to the last of Mr. Williams's connec- tion. with the Church there never was a sug- gestion of his being a preacher. In fact, he never was anything but an ordinary member of •our Church. I have had some experience of Congregational Churches. A Church meeting would be called to consider the matter if he wished to be a preacher, and they would decide tfie matter. Mr. D. Edwards and Mr. -Tames Thomas are local preachers. They had been connected with the Church at Pontvpridd. They have frequentlv taken part in the ser- vices of the Church, and while Mr. V. Morgan was there. Mr. Moreran WB th8re about fif- teen months. H# resigned. Mr. Williams never took the slightest part in the conduct of any of the services of the Church. I do not think his voice wa.s heard in the Church from the time he came to the time he leit us. I do not think he ever attended a week-niWht meet- •.ncr. The Church never authorised any of ■he notepaper of the Churoh to be used by the plaintiff for writing his letters. I never tuthorLserl him to use my name as it an¡lP;1,c,3 n "hs document, or in any way whatever. heard that it was being used Jftfore June. 5893—before Mr. V. Morgan left, and I complained to him about it. Some time after Mr. Morgan left the plaintiff called lqJOn me ft was on a Saturday morning. He said he had been misled by Mr. Morgan, and wished me to advise him :1.< to what he was to do. He did not wish to go to the Church as pastor if he was not one. I told him he had no more right to be preaching than I had. I mentioned thB letters he had sent around with IFY name. and he said he onlv did what he had been advised by Mr. Morgan. He a.sked what he should do In reference to an engagement in the North. I said he had bitter fuifil it, as it was too late then for 'he Church to obtain mother supply, but that he should make known his real position to the Churches. He then asked what steps he should take to be recognised a,s a preacher. I told him he knew perfectly well that the first step was to consult the Church of which he was a member. In the same interview he told me Mr. Morgan had disappointed him in not going to the meeting of the association. He said he knew that he had been refused, and I sald, Could you have expected anything else, seeing that your proposal was not supported by your awn Church., I told him I should be glad to see him another day, when I was less busy, md he left me. :Hr. S. T. Evan*: Did Mr. Williams know lhat he was not recognised as a, preacher?— .Witness: CertainK- he must. And t?wt he had been, rejected b-' associa- .fiin —Certainly he did. i. Now, the whole time he was at Pontypridd did you ever hear of his doing anything in the Church as a preacher ?—No. Anything in ths town as such?—Nothing but i what a layman may do. Some time in 1294 applic,Hiüü1 wa", made by him to the mcnthly meeting of the Church for a transfer, aud it was not granted because he was not then a member. He had then re-joined the Baptists. To .31r. C'i twright: I had a conversation with Mr. Williams about his being a member of the Church, but not 3<3 to his being a preacher. Except what I have stated, I did not tell him that his position would be the same as that of James Thomas, and Danid Evans. J. knew that he was obtaining supplies, or filling! vacancies. I did not bring it before the Church. I was !)re8ent when he was made a member by Mr. Vyrnwy Morgan. Mr. Cartwright: And heard what he said about being- a preacher. Mr. Evans: He never said anything about being a preaoher.. The Arbitraitcr What he said was that he hoped Mr. Williams would be as successful among the Congregationalists as he had been among the Baptists. Mr. Cartwright: How many members are there of the Church a-t Pontypridd? Witness: About 130. I heard of Mr. Wil- liams's application to be admitted a member of the English Association after it. was made. I did not know that he had. been a member of the Baptist Association. I knew he had been a Baptist preacher. To Mr. Eyaus: He did not resign from the association by a notice to the secretary, Mr. Davies. I have made inquiries on the point. Mr. Evans: Have you received a telegram from Mr. Davies about it?—Yes. The telegram was ruled to be inadmissible. Witness: I knew that Mr. Williams was getting supplies, and that he was doing so ir- regularly. I told him he had better cease. AN ORDINARY" MEMBER AN 1) NOT A PJ.VXJ~V.CHER. Thos. S. Jones, commercial traveller, Ponty- pridd, said From the time of the founding of the new Congregational Church at Pontypridd I have been a member. I was formerly a mem- ber of Mr. Morris's Church, and left to start. the new one. I was not at the Church meet- ing when Mr. Williams was received as a mem- ber. Nothing was said at the Communion Ser- vice about Mr. Williams being a preacher. He II was never recognised by our Church as a preacher that I know. No application wa.s made by him or on his beha.lf that he should be recognised fuy a preacher. He came to me m August, 1893. He said he wanted an inter- view as to his position and his being a preacher, and I told him that the question of his being a preacher had never been before the Church in any form—that he was simply received as an ordinary member by the vote of the Church. This was on a Saturday, and he came to see me on the Tuesday after. He then said that Mr. Morgan had misled him as to his position, and that he desired it to be put- right by the deacons. I told him that Mr. Morgan had never mentioned him as a preacher. He said Mr. Morgan had helped him to get supplies and the deacons could put him right by bringing it t-efore the Church. He said he had been refused by the association. Then I asked him how he obtained the supplies and who recommended him, and he said Mr. V. Morgan had written him a oirculacr lett.er. I asked him if he had a copy of the letter which Mr. Morgan had written, and he said no. I then aisked him if he had written any of the :1]1plica,tions on the notepaper of the Church, and he said he only used what had been given him. He said he sent one letter to Oswestry. I to.ld him that letters were sent wjth the Church heading and Mr. Mor- gan's riame attached, but not in Mr. Mor- gan's writing'. Mr. Williams said he had nDt sent any. He said a young man had written some letters for him. I a^ked him who the young man was, but he declined to give me the name. I told him I could not bring his (Mr. Williams's) name before the Church unless he gave me a better ex- planation. I advised him not to make any fuither use of the notepaper of the Church and to put him.-elf right with the Church before he obtained any further supplies. I did not lead him to believe that I would brine; the matter before the Church on his behalf; certainly not. To the Arbitrator: I gave him my own advice and without, having consulted anybody at all. I was all through on friendly terms with Mr. Williams. To Mr. Evans: Mr. Williams has never been recognised by our Church a.s a preacher. I So far as I am aware, a.fter the advice I gave him he did not try to get supplies. If he had done so I should have known of it. in 1894 M". Williams met me on May 11 near the Post-office at Pontypridd. On May 8 application was made by him or on his behalf for a transfer, and on May 11 he said he wanted to see one of the officers about the transfer. I said the application came before the Church meeting- t.he pre- vious Tuesday, but I was not pre- sent and he would hear the result from the secretary. I said, "Between you and me, Mr. Williams, I do not see what grounds you have to ask for a transfer, seeing that you have left the denomination and gone back to the Baptists," 3B I had heard, en January 20. He said. "Who told you so?" I said, "You were not received in a corner, but before all the Church." He I said, "T11:t ha»i nothing to do with it you can't refuse me a transfer." I said, "I :1111 surprised at you saying this. You must know that as soon as you are received by the Baptists you are as dead to our denomination. You are only one person, and you can only be a, member of one place." He said. "I was at your church the last Communion Service. I said. "You were there the hot Communion Sunday in the evening, but the Communion Service was in the morning." He said. "I was present at the Communion Service before that, and you were not there." I said- "You must only speak. Mr. Williams,, of what you knmv." and that was all. The last time I wa.s absent- from the Communion Service was in August. 1893. I was present at the service from which he said I was absent. He then said, "I can see that you are determined to ruin me. I sat-i, "There is onlv one man that can ruin you, Mr. Williams, and that is yourself." To the Arbitrator: If he had come to the Communion Service he would have been entitled to partake. To Mr. Cartwright: It was the second Sun- day in March that I was at the service and the plaintiff was not. I did not write down what he said at the time. It is quite clear to me to-day what was said. I never took any action after what he said to bring the matter before the Church. I told him distinctly I would not. I mentioned it to the other deacons. W p did not think it a suitable thing to bring before the Church. Mr. Evans Nor did Mr. Williams himself. Mr. Cartwricht: Mr. Williams did what he thought- was the best thing—he mentioned it to the witness. Did you (witness) see more than one of the circulars ?—No. I believe there were more. I have never been bankrupt. In 1876 I made an arrangement with my creditors. They accepted what I proposed. To Mr. Evans: I do not know much about Mr. Williams's handwriting, but I thouvrhrt- the writing of the letter I saw was Mr. W'lkams's. Tt was not Mr. Morgan's. THE CIRCULARS FOR SUPPLIES. The Rev. John Williams said I am an Inde- pendent minister at Havod,near P.ontypridd.and have been there two years, and I am secretary of the Welsh Association. The meetings are held quarterly. I was present at the meeting on the 12th of April last, and produ-e the minute-book, which contains the resolni m pro- posed by Mr. Morris, and which was unani- mously passed. The resolution was supported bv several members of the association. Not one spoke against it. After that the resolu- tion came into my custody. Mr. Morris had nothing to do with putting it in the newspapers. A reporter called at my house the day after the meeting, a,'1d I gave him all the report which he wrote down. I had the booit and all the papers before me v; hen he called. I gave him the minutes. I heard the plaintiff give evidence. I heard him say that since he joined the Congrega- tional Church at Pontypndd he had had no ct n- versation with ma in reference to his position as a preacher I was astonished to hear him say so and to give the other evidence he did an the subject. In fact, Mr. Williams did coil upon me in August, 1893, or the end of Jtly. He called at my house by appointment at his own request. I had met him on the day before, and then made the appointment. When he came to my house he wanted to have a talk with regard to The irregularity that he was sending circulars about fur supplies to the Welsh Churches, and not being recognised, so far a4 I knew, as a preacher by ordination. He told me that Mr. V, Morgan had misled him, and that it was owing to that he had sent thtm. I told him not to do anything more in that direction until he had put himself right. He asked what he must do, and I told him that there was hardly any difference between us and the Baptists in that respect. The onlv important difference was as to bap- tism. He replied that he had always thought so, only Mr. Morgan had misled him. I alluded to his rejection by the English Asso- ciation, and said that the proper way would be for him to go to the Church of which he was a member and get a resolution passed by them. and get a ¡;upply, if possible, on eh", following S'1ndav. 1 also gave hIm ether and said I was S11re hp could bsive every heln from Mr. Morris and the other rnMiistefrs. He did not denv at all that he had been rejected by the association. I have been threatened with pro- ceedings, but have heard nothing more of them. The proceedings will be continued at the Angel Hotel, Cardiff, a,t nine a.m. to-day; (Thursday). j nmnpi 1 __n_

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Conservatism at Cardiff.

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