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DEFENCE OF THE CHURCH

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DEFENCE OF THE CHURCH ANTI DISESTABLISHMENT CAMPAIGN OPENS AT CARMARTHEN. GREAT ENTHUSIASM AT CROWDED MEETING. CANON CAMBER-WILLIAMS REPLIES TO THE REV. EVAN JONES. The campaign against the Disestablishment Bill, in the Diocese of St. David's, was opened on Mon- (4aw night with a town meeting at Carmarthen, and if "Carmarthen is typical of the diocese at large the eampaign bids fair to eclipse anything seen before in connection with the subject of Disestabhshntent, or anv other phase of the Church question. A tort night." ago the Rev. Evan Jones, president of the National Federation of Free Churches, with all the eclat of his office, and his far-famed eloquence, had in the same town to content himself with a chapel not more than a quarter full; and this experience waA repeated elsewhere. As one of the speakers put it: "Instead of a tr.umphal progress the visit of the President seemed more like the tramp of a packman whose wares were not in demand." The contract 011 Monday night was significant. Long be- fore the hour for the meeting to commence the large Assembly Rooms, floor and gallery, were full, and aiill people forced their way in till at the com- mencement of the proceedings the building was packed to suffocation, every inch of standing room being occupied, and the crowd of d.aappointed People thronged the ante-rooms, landing, and tho staircase leading up from the street, »nd Ghat though the speakers were no strangers but two veil-known gentlemen, one of whom resided in the town while the other, till recently resided there as well viz., the Rev. Griffith Thomas ami the Rev. Canon Camber-Williams. The ventilation of the room is none of the best at any rime. On Monday night, after the broiling heat of the dav, it was reminiscent ol the Biac»< request to keep the doors open was met by the reply. "The pol cemen say they cannot keep out the lóurging- crowd outside if the doors are once opened. Yet the sweltering audience, standing and sitting, for two hours and a half, keenly followed the al)oakers, bursting out into tumultuous applause at each .lativ or point made, their enthusiasm render- ing them" oblivious to the discomfort of the situation. One oS tho occupants of tho crowded ladies gallery •rood throughout on the back ra.l of ft seat holding on to a gas bracket with one hand, while she bea„ her applause on the wall with the otner hand. The floor of the room was mostly occupied by men. -_J.J +- A -Teat many Dissenters were present^ out uisheut was none. The speakers as tney r» «j •ddrw* the meeting, had to stand mute ior social minutes, while the audience fheered and roared their reception. The Rev.. Griffith Thomas sub- jected tho Bill to a searching criticism, and his style, w.th homely local illustrations whicn drove every noint home, raised tho audience to a hi<rh >r pitch of enthusiasm. The Bill proposes to go-liti.,icate endowments given prior to 1662 on the ploa that what was given before that date was given to the whole people. a portion of whom have now <1 e, left the Church." One Baptist chapel hero has an endowment of two houses, suppose a split, occurred and a portion of the members left, did the remain- der sav, "Here take one of these houses." The meeting did not wa't for the application. No point in Cenon Camber-Williams' close examination of the ReT. Evan Jones' historical blunders, though some- what technical, was missed. We have. heard many strati' conceptions of religious equality, ancient and modern, but surely this is the most. bizarre. The Welsh Dissenter, wh Je in power under Cromwell, turned seven hundred Welsh clergy out of their under the Act of 1649, and loud shouts of "h,tme" drowned the sneaker's voice. "The Welsh Church under the Act of 1662 turned sixty-one of tha intruding speakers out from their livings, there- fore in tho came- of religious equality the Church Was to be robbed of he1* property and the Dissenters to retain theirs." And the shouts of "Shan-io" were redoubled. One of the most striking features of th's very '■narkable meeting was the intense earnestness and Power with which the laymen spoke. The most noint in the whole meeting was maae by Mr. Brigstocke in his short speech. "Last week I tttw tiie original deed which bestowed JB7 out of the tithe rent-charge to the Vicar of St. Peter's. As <'hur('hwardens wo have the custody of the Church Pinto, among others of a chalice, and the date on it- 1574. Our ormonents are ashamed to rob us of the but they propose to take away the J67 for proTidinsr a man to use it." A strong Tesolution against the Bill, passed amid *xtr»()r(linary enthusiasm, and with, as the Chairman declared, half-a-dozen dissentients, brought to a the best meeting, according to the testimony of c old Ciarmarthenite«5, ever held in the town, a meeting which a few years ago could not have been thought of. THE MEETING. A public meeting in connection with Mr. A-quith'o Disestablishment and Disendowinent Bill was held at ;he Assembly Rooms on Monday evening last, ■)!" T. Dowdeswell; Llanstephan, presiding over a ci:j.vded building. The gallant Major was supported on the platform >*v the Rev. Canon Camber-Williams, the vicar of /!a»ipeU-r, and the Rev. Griffith Thomas,- diocesan Wch Defence lecturer (tho two speakers of the e.yeninK) ■ rs. Dowdeswell; Mrs. Griffith Thomas; jh<« n0Y 4 E. Parry (Principal of the South Wales fj'aining College); the Rev. J. Marsden, vicar of kWlhvch; Capt. E. C. Harries, Bryntowy; Mr. D. Thomas, Starling Park; Rev. T. Thomas, Aber- Rov. D. D. Evans, Llangunnor: Mr. Walter ?f>«rre!l; Mr. T. E. Brigstocke; Mr. Albert Harries; A. LI. Davies; Mr. W. V. Howell Thomas; Mr. ft. Arthur; Rev. D. Morgan, Newchurch; Mr. E. Collier; Mr. Wm. Thomas, Hall-street; Rev. D. Alban; Rev. Aldred Williams; Rev. D. W. 1'H mas; Mr. E. Colby Evans; Mr. E. Ham; Mr. T. Bland Davies; Rev. T. Thomas; Rev. J .Evans, Merthyr; Rev. Owen Jones; Mr. James Davies, t-'cheldir; und other local clergy and prominent townspeople. The. Chairman said thai it was 14 yeavs since Mr. ■^(uith introduced a Disestablishment and Disen- dowmoin Bill, when Churchneople in England and aies had had rallied together to repel it. Each attaek that had been made had been the means of strengthening the Old Church, and that day they Wer« ■l)]^ tQ congratulate themselves that she had 20.000 more communicants than the strongest religi- ons body in Wales outside her communion. In Conclusion, the Major alluded to the Old Church *iii?h they all loved, and which even the Noncon- forming must revere because she was the Mother of them all, and they never tired of her "yr Hen Fam" (applause). LIGHTING SPEECH BY THE REV. GRIFFITH THOMAS. Tiit. Rev. Griffith Thomas, who was received with »ou;i cheers, said that after 14 years of quietude Mr. Asqiuth had launched a Disestablisment and Dis- fc"iiwment Bill upon them. After all those years, they expected that the Bill would be much most just thaii (he other one, but, unfortunately for him and the parry to which he belonged, Mr. Asquith's Bill, exqc, t)t for the clauses dealing with th tour Welsh fj^tliedrais, was identical with h.s firt~t one. Air. Thomas felt sure that the Bill would never bo l^orded on the Statute Book of the Realm. The was an attempt to cut them off from the great historic oast which went back before there was an ^'igH.-ihman walking on English moil (applause). If ''is Biil passed, tney would be in just the same as Ireland was, and would have no voice in a.tirig the terms of their liberty, but would have act "in a. constitutional way as the Act allowed ilium ("rihamo"). Dealing with the. question of the OUr Welsh Bishops, Mr. Thomas said that they did 1101 get their seats in the House of Lords as the J^uii of a preference shown them over Noncon- They were there 500 yearn before there a single Nonconformist in Wales (applause), iiiey were not put there by law, but sat in the '{1 Courts with the English Bishops before Parlia- ment was constituted or dreamt of. It wTas not a ^•"ivilege but a national right for which they ought si and up. This was also an atteifipt to deprive t*U' nation of its national recognition of God. Even Rev. Evan Jones had confessed at Whitiand that the j,,wlsh Church was the mouthpiece of the nation, v that were so, they must be logical, as they were 'Wling with a God who was unchangeable, and ^hat v.as true in one age could not be false in pother. Let them disestablish the devil if they l!*(,d. but. it was a. mark of the decadence of a Ration when one beheld it clamouring for the dis- ^Hblishment of God. Instead of the Church being j»dyiri<r one, she was so strong and vigorous that x?<\V Wanted to erinnle her in future. Mr. Llewelyn L Shams'had said that the Church in Wales joined kV^S with the Church in England as the result of a Jf'ticaj trick. Now in 1120, David, Bishop of j *nffor> was selected to take the oath of obedience \r1''e Archbishop of Canterbury. He would ask Op. Llewelyn Williams, who was the ruler of ales years ago? Why, Gruffydd ap Cynon, who was />T tVio man to be joked with. He stormed Rhudd- Castle, and cut oil' the head of its Norman lord ft lth one blow of his sword. If the Bishop of ^"gor 1,;)<1 gone un to Westminster Abbey to be L.°'is<»crated bishop, "and afterwards gone down on P"5 kn<M?s in a servile manner and taken tho oath of p nonioa) obedience, and then come back and told c!ruff>-dd an Cvnon that lie had taken tho oath of Corii-al obedience to the Archbishop of Canter- Kry. and so merged the Diocese of Bangor into :;nSland he would have seen that sword come out of L",tt I iand his head would have been cut off as H <'ut,s of a cockerel's head on Saturday mght for VoLS;i!'d^v dinner (laughter and applau.se). Ho «ntured to say that the union of the two Churches tlr. a spontaneous act 800 years ago, and they had lv^T'°r'x right to break that union than to break the fv of a man and woman united m holy wedlock. en- enomies said they were in the majority, and C going to dictate io them, as if we were not v0: In Wales, and had not Welsh blood in our fu Hnreiy we understood our own feelings bettei t. People outside? (annlllu;.t.). Where was ihe Th -of thc Bill? Why* in the money (applause), th 'Endowment, question was quite as illogical as fof C>0ri and more so really. Their opponents had tnp. °ut a kind of dividing line when all the honest alln WtM"° born, and all the rogues died, and that d Pr°Perties given to the Church previous to that 9 was to be taken away from her. They wished r to take aW3.1 from the Church what had been given to her for a sacred purpose, and they were trustees over a heritage which they had no right to barter away. He contended that as trustees for future generations, it was their duty to hand on unimpaired the properties now in their hands. Pro- pert es that were never given by the State should surely not bo taken away by the State and devoted to purposes for which they were never originally given. They wero given to carry on in the parishes of Wales tho service of God in a language that every man could understand. Every parishioner had a right to worship God and no one asked him how wide he was. as if they could buy God by the cubic foot (laughter and applause). At present they received from the Ecclesiastical Comm ssioners a sum of L74,000 per annum, and the amount received by the Commissioners from Wales every year was about £ 54,000 a year, so that they were indebted to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in this matter alone for a sum of E40,000 a year. If the Bill was passed, not only would they loss that amount, but also the £ 34.000. Wa-; it then to be wondered that they opposed the excuse of plunder on the flimsy pretexts of a so-called political majority? (applause). The Church was not living on what was left her, but had revived, and was more alive than ever. Sho was a living Church, going on from elevation to elevation (applause). FREE CHURCH STATISTICS. Canon Camber-Williams, who received an ovation, congratulated most heartily the organizers on the magnificence of their meeting. It was such a con- trast to the meeting which Mr Evan Jones, the president of the Federation of Free Church Coun- cils of England and Wales, addressed at Carmarthen a fortnight ago, when, according to the JOUHXAL, one chapel was about a quarter full to listen to him, and that according to a very eminent authority they had in many of the Nonconformist churches of the town "the blood of fishes, the backbone and the flabby disposition of the flat-fish, and the wriggling characteristics of the eel" (laughter). He begged to heartily congratulate them on tho fact that there did not seem to be anything fishy about that meet- ing—(laughter and applause)—and in the powerful sneech they had heard there was not very much of tho wriggling of the eel about the speaker (laugh- te- and applause). Instead of a triumphal progress, the visits" of the president of tho Free Church Council to that district seemed to have been more like the tramp of a packman whose wares were not in demand (renewed laughter). The meeting at Whitland, ho was informed, was more flabby and flat-fishy than the meeting at Carmarthen, while at I Aberystwyth a conference grandiloquently descr bed as "Progressive citizens of Merionethshire and Cardi- ganshire' wan such a farce that the righteous soul of he Liberal agent revolted, and he said it was a piece of impertinence for them to call themselves by that title. Some years ago he (the speaker) had occasion to teach Mr. Evan Jones some Scripture history. Mr. Jones, speaking from a Liberahomst platform twenty years ago. said that there were no tithes among the Jews after the return from the captivity in Babylon. Speaking from thc presiden- tial chair at Swansea the other day, however, it (lid not do to give vent to his feelings in the same way as ho did from a Liberatiomst platform. In his soeech at. Carmarthen, Mr. Jones replied to some criticisms of the Canon's upon his (the presi- dent's) Swansea speech. He was forced to admit the "great, and inestimable obligation of Wales to the Church in the post, and to find some other justifica- tion for her proposed dismemberment and spoliation he made an excursion into the realms of history, unfortunately for him with disastrous results. Ho asserted that the Church persistently and invariably drove out and persecuted faithful Churchmen, who desired to reform the- Church from within; and that those reformers who remained inside were frowned upon while living, and that their work was allowed to die after their day. The examples of faithful Churchmen which he gave were Vavasour Powell, John Penry, and the so-called Two Thousand. The question was whether those persons, as he had rashly asserted, faithful Churchmen, desiring to re- form" the Church from within, the resistance of whose efforts could be described as a resistance to the spirit? One might just as well call Dr. Clifford or Mr Evan Jones faithful Churchmen who wished to reform the Church from within to-day (laughter and applause). The State Papers Domestic of Charles II. showed that whatever the reason for the imprisonment of Vavasour Powell by Cromwell, he was imprisoned after the Restoration, not for preach- ing the Word, but for being tho head of a wide- spread plot to inurdei- the King and overthrow his two brothers (hear, hear, and applause). He was the man whom the Rev. Evan .Jones regarded as having a special manifestation of the spirit of peace (laugh- ter). Because Vavasour Powell had been kept in prison by the State for the safety of the State, the Church was to be robbed and spoiled, he (the speaker) failed to set* the connection (laughter). The Rev. Evan Jone.s did not trouble to search any records. All he could offer in reply, after three weeks' time, was the argument generally, but erroneously, supposed to be favoured only by female disputants—(laughter)—a flippant- repetition of his former statement (applause). The second example was John I'enrj, and here again Mr. Jones had no reply to make to his (the speaker's) quotation from Penry's own words that lie had laboured to secure the complete overthrow and destruction of the Church. Was he a faithful Churchman? (laugh- ter). He was the man who had no better names for Bishop Morgan and his co-workers in the work of translating the Bible than "swinish rabble." The Canon recommended wl Mr. Evan Jones to read same of Penrv's writings and then to see whether ho still considered him a man who in a superior degree manifested the spirit of charity and peace (laughter and applause). But because, three hundred years ago, in a court with which the Church had nothing to do, three judges and a jury of twelve London citizens found Penry, the anti-Churchman, guilty of felony against the Queen, the Church of Wales was to be dismem- bered. With regard to the so-called two thousand ministers, which were supposed to have been ejected from their livings in 1!662 under the Act of Uniformity, the speaker ventured to suggest in criticising Mr. Jones' Swansea speech, that he should look who these men were. They were the men whom Dr. Owen, the Puritan, had implored Parliament to restrain and put a curb on them, be- cause of them men were going over to Rome. There were conscientious men among them, but they were anti-Churchmen. Would the Rev. Evan Jones allow a Methodist pulpit to be used for the teaching of Baptist or Armenian tenets? The speaker thought not. Those were the men who turned cathedrals into cow-sheds and pig-styes, and made the reading of the Prayer-Book, even by a child, by its sick mother's bed, an offence punishable by a year's imprisonment, if done more than three times over. These were the men who hounded the clergy from their livings and made it an offence for a dispossessed clergyman to go within 20 miles of his living. They were specimens of faithful Church- men, whose efforts at reform the Church had con- tinually resisted. There was one thing at which he (the speaker) felt bound to protest. When he charged Mr. Jones with having said that the 2,000 were excommunicated, Mr. Jones denied every say- ing so, but brought them forward to show that the Church had tried to stop reform. Unfortunately he forgot to look at the translation of his speech in the "Goleuad" and the "Baner." evidently inspired articles, of which not a line was different, and in which the word ''excommunicated" ( 'diaelodi") ap- pears constantly, and yet lie said he did not say so, why, the very basis of his argument demanded that he should say so. That was a sample of Free Church Council controversial ethics (laughter and applause). Now let them look a bit at Free Church controversial logic. The Welsh Dissenters, under the Act of 1649, cast out 700 Welsh clergy, and the Welsh Church, under the Act of 1662, cast out 61 of these intruding Welsh preachers; therefore the Welsh Church was to be deprived of her property and the Welsh Dissenters were to retain theirs (shame). This wa-s religious equality, of a new order —the Free Church Council fashion (laughter). Mr. Jones' attitude towards statistics reminded him of the chameleon which changed with changing sur- roundings. Speaking at the conference of the Na- tional Free Churches of England and Wales at Swansea he rested his case upon statistics. When t, it was pointed out by the, Bishop of St. David's that the correct figures disproved his contention, Mr. Jones considered the statistical argument a low and unworthy one, and said that the Church statis- tics were utterly unreliable. At Carmarthen Mr. Jones rested his claims to Disestablishment upon the unalienable rights of man, his enunciation of which, reduced to every-day language, amounted to a right to form or to belong to any sect he might choose, and these rights, he said, the National Church utterly denied. If that were so where did the .300 and odd sects at present existing come from 9 Let Mr. Jones form a new sest of Buddhists if he likes, who will interefere with him? The National Church he says. He (the speaker) would like to ask Mr. Jones in what iota the Bill would give him liberty? Would it give the Calvinistic Methodists the right to discuss, much less change their con- fession of faith ("Cyffes Ffydd) which they were at present strictly forbidden! to do, or to make the General Assembly the head of the body. Mr. Jones had said that the State controlled the Church alone. The Dissenters Act of 1874 decided what should be taught in the old Presbyterian Chapels, now occu- pied by the Unitarians, and had done so in many other caies. He also said that the steadily supported the Church at the expense of the poor Free Churchmen." When challenged by the Bishop to prove It, he said. "Does the Bishop mean to deny it?" (laughter). Although the president had made that statement in an assurance of infallibility which must have made the Pope turn green with envy cnuld he have heard it, the Canon would not argue on the subject, but would do as had been done in the past, and offer a sum of JE5 to anyone who could prove to the satisfaction of two justices of the peace that ho contributed a single farthing towards the Church, except by way of rent (laughter and ap- plause). So far from attempting to establish an equality, the present Bill proposed different treat- ment for tho Church as distinguished from the other religious bodies. The Welsh Weslevans, Inde- pendents and Baptists, were integral parts of the same bodies for England and Wales. The Bill pro- posed to allow that union to continue, but to rend tho Church in Wales from the Church in England. and to forbid its representatives to attend the Con- rocation of the whole Church, which they had been doing for so many centuries. In attempting to main- tain his assertion that the Church was a Church of a dwindling minority, the president cut a sorry figure. When challenged by tae Bishop, he first said that he did not mean a numerical minority, but a mino- rity generally, lie (Lit) Canon) was not sufficiently conversant with higher mathematics to understand a minority which was not a numerical minority. Then the President said that what he meant was a minority compared with the increase in the popu- lation, but unlortunately for him the Church had in- creased at a vastly higher rate than the increase of population, then the pres.dent stated that tho Church statistics were utterly unreliable. After li. ing figures which he did not understand, and after being corrected, he charged the Bishop with a charge so abhorrent that it was a wonder that every man in the meeting did not shout him down. He charged the Bishop with falsifying the communi- cants' lists, lists for which the whole of the clergy and churchwardens of Wales were respnosible, Speak- ing at, Swansea, in the presence of leaders of Noncon- formity throughout England and Wales, he gave them figures which he had not taken the trouble to verify at first hand. He presented an incomplete list of tho number of communicants, in which he made.a mistake of 20,000 in addition. He also made a mistake of 338,650 in giving the Sunday School figures, a mistake which a glanco at the official year-book would have enabled him to avoid. But, worse than that, in all his peregrinations througn empty chapels, he had never once expressed his re- gret for those mistakes in his figures, or attempted to withdraw them. There were dwindling minorities nearer home, which the president might well take the trouble of enquiring into. He, the speaker, asked them to condole with the Government—was there ever such a blind bat of a Government as this? (No, no and laughter). Three years ago they appointed a Welsh Church Commission, with a judge of the High Court as chairman, and they had not presented their report yet (laughter). He had at- tended almost all the sittings of the committee, and listened to the evidence from both the Church and Nonconformists points of view, and he would venture to advise the Rev. Evan Jones to withhold his criticisms upon the relative statistics until the Com- missioners' Report was published. He had examined the Sunday-school lists from the Diocese of St. David's himself, and the lists of communicants had been in the possession of the Commissioners in Lon- don for the last 18 months to do just as they liked with them, but of course they were not such com- petent men as the Rev. Evan Jones (laughter). On the other hand, not ono single Nonconformist com- municants' list had been laid before the Com- missioners. Repeated requests had been made by members, and had been met with promises that they would be forthcoming, but they had never been furnished. Mr. Jones had said that three-quarters of the population were Nonconformists. That was a categorical statement which ought to be capable of proof. As a matter of fact, not quite half of the population (2* millions according to Mr. Asquith) were Nonconformists. They had examined Mr. Jones' history, and found it bad, they examined his statistics and found them worse, now where was his justification for disestablishment and disendow- inent? He (the speaker) had come to the conclusion that when the report of the Commission is pub- lished, the Rev. Evan Jones will be sorry he spoke (laughter). He was certain that the country would accept neither the figures of the Church or the Nonconformists, but demand what was done in Ire- I land and other parts of the Empire—a religious census (applause). The Nonconformists, however, had a rooted objection to a religious census. Con- tinuing, the Canon said that the clergy were offered a handsome bribe to lteeo quiet over this Bill, and barter the vested interests of the laity by retaining their livings all their lives, but it was not their vested interests which they had to safeguard, but the vested interests of the laity. What was to become of them after the deaths of the present incumbents? In conclusion, he hoped that that meeting would record its solemn protest against any proposal of that kind. Mr. T. E. Brigstocke, in proposing a resolution protesting against the Bill, said that he wa3 ac- quainted with a great many Nonconformists in Car- marthen who, he knew did not agree with the Bill, and would repudiate the suggestion that the Church in Wales was an alien Church. He asked those pre- sent whether it was? (No, no). He said that last week he saw _the original deed which bestowed £ 7 out of the tithe rent-charge on the Vicar of St. Peter's, not for him, or his sons, but "for ever (ap- plause). The churchwardens had the custody of Church plate, amongst others being a chalice, bear- ing the name of the parish and the date 1574 on it. Their opponents were ashamed to take away the chalice, but they proposed to take away the 1;7 for providing a man to use it (shame). Mr. E. Colby Evans seconded, and Mr. T- Smith supported the resolution, which, on being put to the meeting, was carried with only about half-a-dozen dissentients, amidst loud and continued applause. Canon Camber-Williams then proceeded to answer a question which had been sent up, as to why the bishops were not allowed to vote on financial matters in the House of Lords. He first of all wished to express his sympathy with the friends who had had to listen for so long to what was not exactly sweetened sugar (laughter). He complimented them on the very gentlemanly way in which they had conducted themselves. He wished to say that, every- thing which he had said that night, or at any time, applied to the people who for political reasons ad- vocated the Bill. It was not meant for the many thousands of pious people who really and sincerely believed in it, and among whom he had not only relations, but very many dear friends. With regard to the question which had been asked him. The reason why the bishops could not vote on financial matters was not, as the questioner evidently thought, because they would have to vote for their own salaries. The historical reason was the same as that why a clergyman could not sit in the House of Commons, while a Nonconformist minister could. It was because they used to meet and tax them- selves. At this luncture, the Rev. A. E. Parry whispered something to the speaker, who said he was informed that the Bishops could vote. Mr. T. Bland Davies, who proposed a. vote of thanks to Major Dowdeswell, the late high-sherffi, for the splendid way in which he had conducted the meeting that night, said that he had gone there prepared to find a good many dissentients from the resolution, but he was glad to find so many wise, and so few, to him, foolish people in the town. The meeting was one of the best and most orderly ever seen in Carmarthen. Major Dowdeswell was a staunch Churchman, and a true gentlemaV (applause). Mr. Walter Spurrell seconded, and the vote was carried with acclamation. The meeting terminated with the singing of "God save the King."

THE LATE MR. ARTHUR LEWIS

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