Wrexham and Denbighshire Advertiser and Cheshire Shropshire and North Wales Register

<?EAT MBE?AL  DEMONSTRATION AT CARNARVON. A demonstration, representative of the Liberal constituencies of North Wales, took place at Carnar- von on Monday, in connection with the annual meeting of the < ounty and Boroughs Liberal Associa. rtion of Carnarvon, and also to mark the inauguration of the Carnarvonshire Reform Club. At noon there was a public luncheon, at which there were present some 250 guests. Mr Jones-Parry I presided, the principal speaker beintr IVfr W. Kathbone, M.P. The annual meeting of the delegates of the Carnar. vonshire Liberal Association was held in the after- noon ui the pavilion. Mr Jones-Parry, M.P.. and Mr iRathbone, M.P., were amongst those present. The great public meeting in the pavilion, which seats About eight thousand persons was ifxed for half. past five, but long before that hour the doors were beMCKed by a large and impatient crowd. About five odock a procession,was f°rmed opposite ?eRoyS Hw otel, and beaded by the Nantlle brass band. M?ed the pavilion. The vast huHding filled ?apSy and  those parts of it from which the ?peakeM?Sd be best beard was most incon?niently c?wded. Th« ?ted_mm of waiting was relieved in 'theU8udwayby the smg.? of elecMon refrains, and cheer. ?,nSv2 w the L!herat leaders. As regards the attendee Ih. demonstration was quite equal to that??Sa!<f week, and in point of enthusiasm far exceeded it Upon the eleven Liberal representati? .f Wales making their appearance on the platform, the vast audience rose to their feet and greet;d them witb !Qud and entbusiasticcheedng. Mr W A. Darbishire (chairman of the Carnarvon. ?"r« Llb^ Association), presided, and amongst ?osepr?ntwere Lord Richard <?rosvenor?R Sir R. A. Cunliffe, M. P., the Right Ho?. George  the Ron. F. S. A. Hanbury-l'racy, M.P., Messrs SSaWf-iw-»» M.P.. «&3 U°Ye ''ones-Parry, M.P., John Roberts. MM .I P SCj amue1 l Holland, M P., and Morgan Lloyd, J\i.P., Captain Verney, R.N,, &c. rhe chatrman.haMnghrieny opened the meeting '?StX" R. ?' ?""?? ? move the fir43t I'e!'olution. A' Culifie' T was received with loud cLheers. Be said the last great meeting of tt o ? d ? cheerhy ich he attended was the conference at .Leed?cheers)-and the day after that meeting he had a few wordJ s of conversation with Mr Bright, who .poke of Sir .gtaSord Northcote's fo?mT?? trying to convert the Welshmen in??ies Laughter.) He told Mr Bright that they were ?? to answer Sir Stafford that they were n?Sn? ♦ have any Cabinet Mmister. but were :oingto ha? the members of North Wales to Stand before thpir E'rTeSf" "»«"«-»«» of Wales. ,(!Hear, hear. ) 'MrBrihtsaidhe thought that was ithebestanswer !they could give to Sir Stafford North- f0*- T1»eresolution he had to propose was as follows. (That this meeting, believing the extension of the franchise and the reform of locll government tncount?tobemea?.f paramount ?orSce ,to the ^.untry, desires to urge on the Government the ad?atnhtyofd?ealmgw.th these queens the ensuing Session. With reference to the first part, it needed but little to com?n? i?th?. 'u<r-iM rhej w ere, he thought aH practicaMy agreedu?onthat point (applause)—and so strong was the case in iS favor that last week when Sir Stalford & £ cote was there, he said that he did not so much object to the extension of the franchise as to something terrible which he thought was going to foUow it. He (the speaker) did not think it a ?ery j, ood reason why they should objecttoatbing in VJCUSe soraethi"? else might happen to be M What difference would it make that they should give to householders in counties the vote which was now possessed by the householders in boroughs. It was calculated that the proposed change would add one million electors to the present number. These he might (livide very roughly into two classesthe .arrrip.nlt-.nval A\. ° ogiu nn; operanves and other working men who lived in populous districts but who were outside the limits of the Parliamentary borough. With regard to the agricultural laborer, he did not think there was any one who would deny the advisability, especially in these times of agricultural depression, of giving so large and so important a class of working men the full rights of citizenship. {Loud i cheers.) It had been sometimes argued that agri- cultural laborers were already siifficientl-v represented in i arnament because landlords, and even tenant farmers, found seats there; but the essence of representation, in his opinion was, that those whose interest was concerned should have the power, if their representati ve forfeited their confidence, to turn him out. When we had given them the franchise, which we certainly should, then depend upon it their interest would obtain attention in the House of Commons, which he thought would be a great gain to the country. As to the operative and working men who, ashefiad said, lived in populous districts because their houses were on the other side of a street or a road which was the limit of the Parliamentary borough, but had not the same political (privileges as their friends who lived on the other side, these men were equal in intelli- j gence, social position, and habits of life as those who had a vote. He would ask where would they find a more industrious population of working men than the miners of Northumberland, Yorkshire, or the operatives of Lancashire; or, to come nearer home, than the miners of Denbighshire. Why was John Jones in one place not equal to John Jones in another place ? (Laughter and applause.) Or where could he find a better illustration than the quarrymen I of Carnarvonshire. (Applause.) They knew the (great interest these men had taken in the establish- ment of the College for North Wales, a£ nd if be were epe?ing from a local point ofv"iew? b?°"Jshtaay that he would much prefer  arbitrators ?? fixed Ion Denbigh town as the site. Wben he saw their &ry a carnarvonshire contribntin 80 I largely as they .baddone totefund for their Co egre, I he felt that their zeal for higher education was most bOOf)rbleto them. He therefore asked 2Hrhey wios ulldt that these men bave not the franchise. He would ¡ give them one fact whicb would give them an idea of the existing state oaf t th5i™f« 'a™ to the last I census there  Wales 154 urban daSt trS S? ? ?????°"? E"? g!Mdand ¡ Festiniog,each with a porm'lation ofoleJ To WO wiT Mn?. each Sth a?ulaS???? ? total pai)ulation Was close unon 3 '000,000. Tbe ssaasraSSSW-A iSr tbeaffairs of the country to a share in tbe election of men who were to make S' laws under which they lived as thST.h!, m.w i,av„^ in r,i'r »hich thj. hear.) The .present Parliament was elected to carry this  and they must carry it. (" Hear, hear and .) 'rheywere sometimes told that t?e House of Lords might reject it. It was  they would be too wire to reject it twice. (Hear, bear.) Theywnuld remember the well-known story irtthree^to R4Dbert Stephenson, the great • when he was contemplating making his first railway sS ^=^*s53r!rS5 Committee asked him wbat would bappen if a cow got upon the line when a train was coming, and sjsztts. "-I" s "cow." '(Lauhter and cheers.) He hoped the Lords would not plam themselves in the position of the cow. (Loud cheers.) He trusted and he believed they would have too much wisdom and too much patriotism to reject a measureaffectintbe House of Commons, which might have been twice passed by a ¡majority of that House. (Hear. hear.) When thev ihad cleared the road by passing such a measure as i that they could come to the other part of the resolu- tion i which referred to the question of the reform of Iloca governments. <He*r' W) Any of them who badta.ken an interest in the working of local institu- Itionrs coutdnot I1 to have observed the growing iml)ortance of Incal representative bodies in countie? iat this titiae. They misbt find a Proof of that in the fmmin V^8 f ^°ne 8pent by them annually, if SvstemS ft? hl eountrI all over. They had a diffiient 8ystem  boroughs from the system wMchpr vaSi the counties. ? municipat?ies, as thev all knew, there was an annual election of men who were ¡to manage local aSair? and just in proportion at ¡ towns were large and their affairs were important, i so they would always find men of ability and I _& .2 1 UL gooa standing coming forward to give ? i the.r hme and their best action to the welfare of the community amongst which they lived. Th?t ??vsSte?? !ontbewhole had answered admirably, and the time bad now come when oeople asked themselv?, why be^exlcfenndSLed e freprf entative P""c'P? of government  extended through all the counties ? (Hear, hear.) He read a year or two ago a very interesting speech by a man who was more competent than ?most any other man to speak on that .?ject-Mr Goschen. SS??? referring to the confusion which existed in !this country, and ? gave amusing instances ) Swh'? Mhcamew.thmhM own individual experience. Mr ?OMhpn aatd?at mone year he received 87 demand Afferent bodies of a total value of £ 1.100, andtbatonesingle parishha..t sent him eight rating r the splendid sum of 125 4d. Let them look how many of those localhodiestbev might have if they were living in a rural parish. They might find that thevwere being governed by half-a-dozen different bodies at the same time. They mizht be under a Vestry, under a School Board, under a Burial Board. under a Highway Board, under the Guardians. and under the Justices at one time. He (the speaker) ventured to say that where there was so much sub- division of work and of authority they had waste of time and waste of money. (Hear, hear.) He did not pretend to sketch out a scheme of reform, but he would suggest to them as worthy of consideration that if they Were to give to those who were to elect mem- bers to Parliament-that was to say, to the house- holders-the power of electing members to local bodies to manage local affairs, those same local bodies OQignt in a large degree help. by sending up representa- ™ a cencrarcounty board, to manage in a most efficient and admirable way the affairs of the whole county. His belief was that if they did establish county boards, from their importance and the authority they would have. they would have attracted to them the best men in each county. If measures something like the two he had referred to were to be passed, they would give fresh life and vigour to all our institu- tu ns. But there was one thing of which they might he quite sure. They could only get those measures from the Liberal Administration. (Cheers.) Even if a Conservative Government were willing to bring i in those measures, their friends would never let them; and if they wished Mr Gladstone—(cheers)— and his colleagues to do the work, he would ask them to support them by showing what was the feeling of a great meeting like that, and therefore it was with the utmost confidence that he now asked them to give their heartiest assent to the rssolution he had the honor to propose. (Cheers.) The resolution wm seconded by Mr Jones-Parry, M.P. Lord Richard Grosvenor, M.P., in supporting the resolution, said there was one wish uttered by Sir i Stafford Northcote in that hall which was the only one he cordially agreed with, and that was the expression of his regret that he could not address them in their own fine language. Under the circumstances, he must ask them to put up with language which was, more or less accurately, spoken in the House of Commons. (Laughter.) He was glad to hear that many of those whom he saw before him were present at the Tory meeting, because it showed that all good I Welshmen were willing to hear both sides of an argument, and he was certain that when they had heard both sides they would not deviate from the I position they had taken up before. (Cheers.) He I K&ne"23  "?? » He believed worfMl lfelrf J* the rpsolutions which tey would pass Xh, 3 ?' evenin?. (Hear hear.) He bdle\ed they now had that confidence i,, the Government which ea'. a^° ina^e th^m send nothmg but T ih!»r'a.i members to 't. (Cheers.) Their confiden ee was still unshaken. ''l-or ?cheers) :STheir ??'?? ??????? 'IUk'°; 'S" Government wnnl /p^t „ fM■ 1G.?laJds,rtone and the Government would carry  their wishes in the way best calculated for lnti erests "? t'? country best calculated for the in' ,erest.? of the countrv. (Hear, hear.) The magnificent meeting at 1^ed^ and ¡ be?t cahlceualrat?e?d Th????? 'I (Hea?r the nrnr^-r J?,lr 9SI.?n upon the (;' Ween- ?. (Cheers 1 ment. frobm e Londorf n^1 « \me?tlon that he travelled down from London ll Sa.turday ?'?'n?. ?? thev ♦whl. health was jiiit what they would all wish it sh°uld he when tley were about to enter a such as thy %vere likely to undergo. (Cheer",) The principal topic Hkely to undergof (CheiiT Thp upon which Sir Word N^hJLte aEeif thff fhLht\Te upon which he preSUmed Sir Stafford thought he made the best 'T- a subjecL 011 which L wS Jery neSv Eh" iiiaster. He Zndtrf* Upf> a 8°od 8chool ofitnancf^toJ he* studied at one time under Mr Gladstone Tt W:t." a matter for regret that he did not?ary ou» the lessons rf bVeJpooTinnt t then instilled iot.. him. The "ue remark- able point in Air Gladstone'.s careet- from be'irmV. to end  masterly way in which he had deali with the ^nam ^TH^ "y country, and the statem?.t made by Sir Stafford Northcote was that the diHer. dwin^ expenditure between ? two Gon? s d?n?the?ir last ? three years was against the Liberal to t c amount of H48'000' but he ? not make it balf enough-the differ?nce was ?,648,000. They had got t6 account for that, and how did they dui? K,?l ,n (™e sent1ence, namely, that they inh rited a war expenditure of 1:7,200-000 (Cheers.) Now, the !ate Government closed theic !ast three yers with a de?t of ?,770.000, which h?d to be met byth? Liberal party, ?nd in addition to thi sum of in- herited war expense there was 1:1,650,000 which !?<! been charged on the new sinkmg fund under an ar- rangement made by the late Government He had no doubt many of them had read Dick .ns' Creat Expectations, in which there was the character "f Pip, a young man who was very much in debt, f.s youn? men often were. (Lau7btr,) In dealing with the balance, Pip took all his bIlb together, wrote L amounts carefully upon apiece of paper, ticked ^e <aoun?,and after he had done this put the biBs all "'? a ??' and don^ S .t? here. (Laughter.) Now, i„ ,n?kin? up thdr accounts, that was very much Hk.- uhat Uw latf Government did with their bills. They put them all away in a drawer and left them for ?" -sucep-or.; to pay. (Cheers.) We ha l not only p?id the e^i of :f:hA." ii«n«.r. L. t UUL we naa paiu the cost of our u.vn wars in Egyvt. From Soulh Africa we had recei ved 2470,000, and besides tlii. %ve had paid q,tit of taxes £10,100,000, and had not l..ft any arrears of the cost of our wars. (Cheers.) During the six years the latt- I Government were in Power they had only paid about I ZXi8,000a year of debt, whereas the present Govern- iinent had paid off £ 17,668,000, or over it year. Sir Stafford Northcote had told them to go I home and think what had been done. He (lor-i Richard) would ask them to compare what had been done. (Cheers.) Sir Stafford told them the present Government had spent 4:1 182,000 a year more than the lories in respect of the Civil Service. Well, it was inevitable that the Civil Service expenditure must increase as our country went on to increase in prosperity. (Cheers.) What had been the great 'cause of some of their Civil Service expendi- I ture? Mr Fawcett in the Poit Office had added ?1.000,000, hut that would be not back again, and nut. only so, but it would add to the convenience and the comfort ot the people in a thousand ways. Then there was the money spent on education, and with respect to that they might be sure that mouey "iJent on education was money saved to the country. Again, Sir Stafford Northcote made an increased charge in the Government estimates as regarded the cost of the prisons. That was now an Imperial charge. It was a matter of centralisation, and he thought they would agree with him that that was a step in the wrong direction. (Applause.) Then, as they were all aware, they had had great difficulties in I Ireland. That also involved tin additional charge upon the Exchequer, and he did not think the late Governmllt were free from blame for having put that on their shoulders when they had an able politician like Mr Lowther-(Iaughter)-inatiagiii- the affairs of Ireland. They need not be surprised if, sooner or later, the country had to pay a heavy charge for the Government of any country which he presumed to superintend. (H. ur, hear.) Sir Stafford Nortbcote asked them how they were better off now than they were three years auo. He would suggest an answer. They might take off more than of debt incurred by their predecessors out of ordinary income. Had it not been for that burden of debt there would have been a remission of taxation to :t great extent. They had returned to a sound system of finance, by which they paid their way honestly as they went on. He once heard it said that they should pay their way even if they borrowed monev to do it. (Laughter.) They might be sure that that principle would not be adopted by Mr Gladstone or any Liberal Government. (Applause.) He would give them a comparison of Sir Stafford Northcote's career in a few sentences. He found an expenditure of £ 75^ .488,000, and he left an expenditure oi £ K3,H20,000, and then he did not pay his bills. He actually left a deficit of £ 2,840,000. He found a balance at the bank of £ 7.443,000; he left a balance of t3,273,(K)(1. He inherited an estimated surplus of £ 5,500,000, he left an estimated surplus of 184,ooo. After these tigure", he did not think he need say more to them as to the success of his finances. Sir Stafford told them about a visit he paid to Snowdon, and finding himself in a mist, and suggested that the present Government were in a mist. He thought Sir Stafford ought to have carried the simile further. The mist in the case of the Government was composed of Tory opposition in the House of t'omntons. iC heers.) He did not