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Detailed Lists, Results and Guides

IMPORTANT VESTRY MEETING AT BANGOR- ,t A very numerously attended vestry meeting of the ratepayers of Bangor was, hold at the Vestry-room, in the Cathedral Church, on Thursday last, to take Into consideration a proposal for a compromise made on be- half of Colonel Pennant in the matter of the rating of Port Penrhyn, the Rev. D. Evans, senior vicar of the parish, in the chair. The members of the Bosrd of Health being engaged in consultation with their legal adviser, sent a messenger reouesting the chairman to deter, for a short time, the consideration of the question for which the Vestry was specially convened. This being done, Mr. LLOYD JONES rose to improve the occasion, by making a few observations upon the manner in which the proceedings of the Local Board were reported in the local paper. He had noticed that very meagre and condensed reports were given in the paper of even the most important matters discussed and transacted at the Board of Health. To prove that such was the case, he need not go further than the very last meeting of the Board, at which an important dis- cussion took place respecting an offer made by Colonel Pennant upon the rating of Port Penrhyn. One would have wished to see what the members, in their capacity as representatives of the town, said of the proposal. (Hear, hear.) But no; after giving Captain Iremonger's letter in small type, the whole is condensed into a corner, and it says:—"This proposal was very fully discussed, and after mature deliberation, it was unanimously re- solved, that the handsome offer of Colonel Pennant be accepted." The editor's own remarks occupied fairly half- a-column, which was the first to attract his (Mr. Jones's) attention, and when he went to look for an account of the meeting, it was with some difficulty he came across it. He should like to see the accounts also published in the paper, for which—and he knew lie spoke the minds of other ratepayers upon that point-I r, Douglas should be paid, as an advertisement or otherwise, and he should be asked to give a fair and full report in return. (Hear, hear.) Mr. George James—With reference to Mr. Jones's observation that Captain Iremonger's letter was put in small type in the paper, it only reminds me of an old saying, "that good articles are lapped in small parcels." (Laughter.) Mr. Jones-I question very much whether that which you refer to is a good article at all; but we shall see presently. The Chairman then read the following notice, conven- iag the vestry "Parisl of Bangor. Notice is hereby given, that a vestry will be heM in t'he Vestry-room, in the Cathedral Church of Bangor, oil Thursday next, the 28t,n day of April, 1865, at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, to consider a proposal for a compromise made on behalf of Col. the Hon. E. G. Douglas Pennant, ,&I Procee d ings now M.P., so as to put an end to the Legal Proceedings now pending in the matter of the Rating of Port Pearliyn. Also, for the purpose of examining the Accounts of the Overseers of the Poor, and Surveyor of Higkways for the above-named parish. Dated the 13th day of April, 1865.. "EVAN EVANS, ) Lrhhlu, r,cwb RRrdens "THOS. THOS. PARRY, ChuTekwEtrdens. I "WILLIAM WILLIAMS, ) OT,werr33eeeerrss- GE&RGE SIMPSON, ( ér8eer8." Mr. Kennedy, Chairman of the Loedl Board, then rose and said—Sou are all aware of the objects of this meeting; and as we have the advantage of the presence of the Board's legal adviser, I shall only request him to state the case as it now stands. Mr. T. GOUT, EDWARDS, of Denbigh, said he felt he would not then be justified in doing more than simply reading to them the terms of the agreement proposed to be entered upon between the Board and Colonel Pen- nant. Hethen read the following:- Terms of Compromise of the difference hetiveen (folonel Ilen,nar.t and the Bangor Lrreal Pra?,d of Heati,t. It is arranged (without prejudice to the rights or to the present position of either party, in the event of the following terms, or any of them, not being approved of and carried into legal effect) as follows, that is to say— "1. That the Local Board shall, as soon aa conveniently can be,-petition one of her Majesty's Secretaries of State, under the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1858, to separate, for all purposes, from the district of the Lccal Board, so much of the parish of 'Llandegai (hereinafter called the "digpiitea premises'') as lies with- in the Parliamentary Borough of Bangor, and shall use their best endeavours to get the disputed premises so well and effectually separated from the said, district. "6. That Colonel Pennant shall use his best endea- vours to obtain (so far as inay be necessaryj'the consent of the ratepayers within the same premisestto such sepe- ratton, but no such petition orconsent as mforesaid, nor any act to be done by any party in, about,. or in relation to'the premises, shall in any way prejudice or affect him orthem in the event of either party being compelled to im.ke good his or their position at law. 3. That all costs with relation to the «iid difference hitherto incurred by Colonel Pennant shall be borne by him, and so incurred by the Local Board; shall be borne by them—each party to bear his or their own expenses to be incurred in carrying out or in -w.deavouring to carry out the proposed compromise. "4. That the Local Board shall, iipm-imuch separation being effected as aforesaid, revoke and TBBcind, as far as they lawfully can, any resolution or proaeeding on their part inconsistent with tbie present arrangement. "5. That when and eoxsoon as the disputed premises ^hall have been so separated as aforesaid, and the Board .shall have complied with the terms un their part to be performed as aforesaid, 'Colonel Pennant shall give to the said Local Board the sum of £ 4,968 to be applied by them after payment ef all legal expenses as aforesaid, in extinction of the capital debt now remaining due from the Board, and to be in full -satisfaction of all claims and demands by the Local Board on or with reference to the disputes premises. "Bangor, 20th April, 1865." Mr. OWEN Evus, City Vaults, --said he thought Colonel Pennant wanted to buy his rigbts in the parish at too cheap a rate. Could he buy a farm or a house in the same proportion as that which he proposed to buy the rating of Port Penrhyn ? Nothing of the sort. In accepting the offer, they got up a very bad precedent for other people to follow. (Hear, hear.) Supposing some ratepayer came forward and proposed a compro- mise in the same manner, would he be Allowed to do as the Colonel proposed doing ? It was a-aerioua thing for them to consider before accepting any terms to com- promise the rights of any ratepayer. Let them not swallow an offer, hastily and without mature considera- tion but demand a fair understanding, and a fair price. However much he admired the liberality of Colonel Pennant, he really thought the amount'he offered was too cheap, and he advised them to pause before they finally accepted the offer. (Hear, hear.) Mr. G. JAMES said he was again reminded of a saying about an old Welshman, however much wos offered him he wopld always cry for more. (Laughter'.) Mr. R. HUGHES, George and Dragon Sun, said he objected principally to the word made use ef in Captain Iremonger's letter, that the sum was given as a "gift" to the town. When a man purchased a thteg, the price he paid for it was no gift; and why should the Colonel call this a gift—a thing which he buys- Mr. G. JAMES—You cannot buy a thing .which does not exist, man. (Hear, and laughter.) Mr. R. HUGHES--But that is a mere matter of opin- ion. Mr. Evans and myself pretty generally agree upon all public matters (laughter), but there is a point in this affair that I do not agree wrtfh him. I think Colonel pennant has came out very handsomely indeed iitoffering £ 4,500 as a compromise, whieh is equal to 9225 a year in perpetuity—a thing which each and all of Ala will benefit by. (Cheers.) I( we had won our case we should oiil), get it by instalments, and then we would be pay- ing heavy rates for future generations whom we know not. (Laughter.) Mr. James said the Welshman al- ways asked for more, and as he himself was a Welsh-man he was also one of those who always asked for mere. (Hear, and laughter.) Mr. H. LLOYD JONES said he rose to propose an amendment, when he was met by several voices that ao motioa had been made; he, however, contended there was a proposal then before the meeting, and went on ta observe that the proposal he alluded to was made by Captain Iremonger, who, although he said he made it upon his own responsibility, was, ill fact, a proposal of Colonel Pennant's, and was submitted for their accept- ance or rejection. The Local Board had a meeting that day upon the .subject., and in that meeting a letter from himself was probably read, calling for the production of certain documents, which would form materials to ena- ble them to proceed with the consideration of this sub- ject. That referred to the following materials being the foundation of this claim, viz., the map prepared by Mr. Johnson, the minutes of the Board, and the agree- ment entered into with the Board by Colonel Pennant They did not see any of them produced. They had waited long enough for the termination of this dispute; though after the last meeting some of the parties ap- peared wonderfully active-special meetings were con- vened, and telegrams sent. And why all this unseem- ly haste about a question involving to the tovgi £ 4,500- -a pretty large sum, certainly, but not under the cir- cumstances in which it was given. He intended moving an amendment-that the offer be rejected—he objected to the amount, and upon no consideration whatever would he accept it as a present. (Hear, hear.) They were enough under the sway of men of higher grade already, but, surely, they were not going to accept any sum for their rights in that way. But he would again ask why were the documents of the Board not pro- duced at that vestry Mr. KIilINIIDY-I may as well state that your letter was read at the Board, and your request taken iuto consideration; batthatrwvdid noi QaiiA ik- ugawmey to produce the documents. Mr. H. I.L. JONES Mid, that being the jjftse he hoped the Vestry would be adjourned to a future day, till the documents be produced., (Hear, hear.) They should deal with the parishioners fairly, and whether they had a right, or not to demand the production of those docu- ments, in deference to their wishes he thought they should have produced them. He gave the members credit for doing what they had already done, and he would may in the face of Mr. Gold Edwards what he had already said in his back, that the Board could not have selected a better man as legal adviser than he; and, with the exception of their duty to consult the ratepay- ers about a certain step they had taken, he approved of their doings up so their acceptance of this offer. Mr. KENNEDY—We have not accepted the offer yet. Mr. JoNEs-But the paper says so. Mr..1 AMES—A newspaper is no evidence. Mr. KENNEDY-But, I believe, the paper does not state that it has been accepted. Mr. JONES (referring to the paper)—It is stated that the proposal was 11 fully diteused, and after mature deliberation, it was unanimously resolved that the handsome offer made by Col. Pennant be accepted. (Cries of "read on")—"subject to the approval of the ratepayers in Vestry assembled." However, he maintained they had no right to call a meeting in the manner they did, and pass a resolution hurriedly at a meeting of that nature. Mr. GOLD EDWARDS wished to remind Mr. Jones that he had no right to insinuate irregularity on the part of the Board. The meeting was perfectly regular, and they did- only that which they had a right to do. Mr. JONES denied that he made any insinuations to- wards the members of the Board. Mr. J. K. DOUGLAS-There is really at present no motion before the meeting, and in order to give all an opportunity fully to discuss this question, I shall pro- pose, That this Vestry recommends the Bangor Local Board of Health to accept the compromise offered in the matter of the rating of Port Penrbyn, by Captain ire- monger, in behalf of Colonel Pennant." Dr. 0. 0. ROBERTS seconded the motion, and remark- ed, supposing the shore ground liable to be assessed what could they get from it ? Not nearly, in his opin- ion, the interest which they would derive from the sum which Colonel Pennant offered as a compromise. The ratepayers wwuld act wisely if they adopted the course indicated in the motion, and should do everything to prevent litigation. (Cheers.) 1 r. J OKS ELLIS thought the Board of Health had done everything that could be done under the circum- stances, Mid that it would be quite useless for the par- ishionert to bother their heads about maps and doeu- menta which they did not understand. (Hear, hear.) The members acted quite independently of Colonel Pen- nant, and appeared most desirous of discharging their duty towards the ratepayers. (Applause.) Mt. R. HUGHES repeated that he considered it a hand- some price and a fair value of the place. But the Board had sadly neglected its duty in not rating it before. The Basrd was then 15 y1'0f 1 age— M JAMl!s-Rat1«r young; not quita M age. (Lau ter.) Mi R. HUGHES—No matter about that; there were -several members now on the Board who havefoeen mem- fbeTS from the commencement. ( No, no." ) Well, Mr. Meshach Roberts has been a member for ten years or more. Where was 'bo. and how was .it their engineer did not find it out before now ? The drains-and sewerage were made,. and the pipes and lampstones were put down at the expense of Colonel Pennant at the Port; and considering all this the sum offered by the hon. gentle- man if not a gift is next thing to a gift. (Hear, hear.) If you consider the expense that would be incurred in getting the place to be rated, supposing fit to be rateable, it is much bettcrtfor us to accept the EA,500 and with the glorious uncertainty of the law we should be glad of the offer rather than be struggling for ever and for other people to get the benefit. Mr. O. EvAft-Thafs just the wayior you to get to the Board. (Loud laughter). Mr. R. HUliHES-I don't want to go there but if I should I am sure my goodness would be curbed there. (" Oh," and laughter.) Mr. H. LI. JONEs-In the letter which appeared in the NOBTH WALES CHRONICLE, April 15, 186.5, I find that the sum is to be offered as a present to the town, which differs materially from the agreement read to us to-day. If we are entitled to the sum—and if we rely upon what has been stated on behalf of the Board, we are entitlacl—I say we have a good case, and we have a right to rate Port Penrhyn. Then I maintain that we are entitled toa considerable amount in consideration for that right, not as a gift or present. (Hear, hear.) Mr. G. tJAmgs-There is no word said about a pre- sent in this paper (meaning the -terms of compromise.) Dr. O. 0. ROBERTS-It is useless to talk that way the fact is if you do not accept Colonel Pennant's offer, the cost will be enormous if you go to law. You should consider that the shore-ground is not rated, and that he gets nothing by it. I decidedly think we bad better Meepttheaumoneredby Colonel Pennant, and grate- fully so too. (Applause). Mr. ItojQLAS said the principal objection raised by Mr. Lloyd Jones, was aa to the alleged divergence be- tween the "Terms of Compromise" read by Mr. Gold Edwards, and the letter of Oapt. Iremonger offering a compromise. He could effectually dispose of that ob- jection by a little explanation. A fortnight ago Capt. 1%g put himself in communication with Mr. Hardie, with the view of having a special meeting of the Boartl called on the following day, to enable him to make a proposal on behalf of Col. Pennant. Owing to the resigaation of Col. Pennant, and the new Board not having keen constituted, they were without a Chairman; and as ilhe power of catling a special meeting of the Board wis by law vested in the Chairman, and could not be-exercised by any one merify acting in that capacity, it was impossible to comply with Capt, Iremonger's re- quest. As the first ordinary meeting of the Board was to take place on the Thursday, he was requested to at- tend, but owing to a prior engagement he was unable to do so. He did, however, attend an adjournment of that meeting held on the following day, and made an oral proposition which he was requested to reduce to writing. The full consideration of that proposal was deferred.ootil the Monday evening following, when Mr. Gold Edwards attended to advise the Board. Now he was bound to say, there was a slight difference between Capt. Iresionger's spoken and fatten proposals, as to the steps to be taken to secure the exemption of Port PenrhynEfnom the District of the Local Board. When addressing the Board, Capt. Iremonger only stipulated for the concurrence and sueh "facilities as the Board could give to an application to be made by Mr, Barber on Col. Pennant's behalf for a fresh Order excluding Port Penrkyn; whereas in his letter published last week, the payment of the C4,500 was made conditional on the Board undertaking the necessary steps. That was just the knotty question which had .engaged the anxious consideration of the Board that morning, as to whether Col. Pennant or the Board should defray the expenses incurred in getting the Port excluded, and he thought the ratepayers might safely leave at in the hands of the Board. In Colonel Pennant the town had a most liberal'benefactor; and in his "judgment, it would be very onwise and certainly very ungracious to drive too hard a bargain. (Hear, hear.) The terms of com-, promise, stripped of legal verbiage, were briefly these- all legal proceedings to be stopped, each party paying his own easts, and Col. Pennant to make the Board a present of f4,600-so soon as the exclusion of Port Pen- rhyn from the district of the Local Board shall have been secured. Whatever cost might be incurred in ob- taining that exemption would be shared between CoK Pennatand the Board. Those were the terms offered, and with the concurrence of the ratepayers the Board were prepared to acaept them. Col. Pennant had on many occasions given substantial proofs of his earnest desire for the welfare of Bangor. It had 'been a source of the. deepest annoyance to him that there should be any litigation between him and his neighbours, and the spirit in which he had came forward, with the olive branch, carrying also in bisihand the noble gift of X4,500, was truly characteristic of the man, and would surprise nobody who knew his genmne goodness of heart, and his almost unbounded liberality. (Cheers.) But it ap- peared there were some parties dissatisfied, and who wished to carry matters to extremities. At the last vestry, those parties Mamed the Board for taking legal proceedings, and now they blamed them still more for compromising. They assumed that, the Board had been successful in litigation, and that Port Penrhyn would be liable to a heavy assessment. The Board believed they had a good case, and that if it proceeded judgment would be given in tkeir favour; but the other side also expressed themselves confident of success, and whatever decision might have been given by a superior court, no- thing would have shaken Col. Pennant's conviction that Port Penrhyn was never intended to be included in the Local Board's district. Taking all the elements of the case into consideration, not forgetting the glorious un- certainty of the law, the Board firmly believed-and in this view they were warmly supported by Mr. Gold Edwards, their legal adviser, a gentleman of great repute in his profession—that the compromise offered was the best possible solution of the difficulty. (Hear, hear.) If this meeting differed from that opinion, let them take the sense of the ratepayers by a poll of the parish. And if that course was adopted, he had no fear of the result. The members of the Board considered that they had been dragged into this dispute, and for no inconsiderable time placed in a trying position. They had been alternately praised and blamed, just as the prospects of the case brightened or darkened, but they had fearlessly done their duty, and he trusted, in a man- ner, that no impartial or dispassionate mind could cen- sure. (Cheers.) Mr. Lloyd Jones had sent a letter to the Board that morning; requesting the production, at this vestry,, of the plana, mioute. bpofes, Wither docu- ments. The Board deelitted to accede to that request and he thought very property so, too. A public vestry was not the place to deal with matters of that kind it could best be done by a committee of three or four gen- tlemen, and, he could answer for it that no difficulty would be placed in the way of any ratepayer who wish- ed to inspect the Board's documents. But they would not consent to have them brought into a public vestry. The members of the Board were elected as the represen- tatives of the ratepayers, and not as mere delegates to do the bidding of everybody who chose to dispute the policy of their acts. If they failed to do their duty to the town, the ratepayers had the remedy in their own hands. (Applause.) Mr. Douglas, after some further observa- tions, concluded by again reading the resolution he had previously moved. Mr. R. HUGHES- YOII have no business to propose things here. (Laughter). You should let others move resolutions affecting your Board. Mr. DOUGLAS—At the Board I exercise my right as a member but here as a ratepayer. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BICKNELL-It is wrong to assume that because we have been elected members of the Board we are to be deprived of the powers of speech or of moving reso- lutions as ratepayers Mr. ROBERT HUGHES—You do certain things at the Board and come here to seal them'yourselves. I don't see that's right at all. (Hear.) Mr. GEORGE JAMES—The fact is, gentlemen, Mr. Robert Hughes wants to throw you all over-Board. (Laughter.) Mr. THOS. LEWIS (who spoke in Welsh) said that in accepting the offer made on behalf of Colonel Pennant the ratepayers might rest assured they would be secur- ing to themselves a certain thing for uncertainty. As had been observed it was but a compromise; and it often occurred that parties went to law feeling confident of success were aftt-r all disappointed, having incurred enor- mous expense. And even supposing the case was won could it be said that their prospects as ratepayers would be advanced a grade by rejecting the proposal ? They would still have to decide in what manner and to what amount it was rateable, and all would admit that the rating of Port Penrhyn would present many uimcuitins which might give rise to endless disputes. (Hear, hear.) It was not the same as if they rented a house cr a farm —the Port was connected with the quarry, and how could the one be valued apart from the other ? He men- tioned that in order to shew the difficulties they would have to contend with in applying a proper test or princi- ple to its rating, assuming that it would be rateable. There were already various opinions as to the amount it should fairly be rated at, and he heard the sum of 4'150 mentioned; but the compromise was by far pre- ferable to that, if the interests of the town were to be studied. It was represented to him that the interest alone would dispense with the necessity of having one rate a year, and that the only sums to be provided for would be the working and current expenses. But, inde- pendent of all pecuniary considerations, the existence of a good neighbourly feeling was a thing which they ought highly to value. Colonel Pennant had dealt very liberally with the Board; and if they refused a pro- posal kindly emanating from himself, it was more than what they could expect from human nature for him to evince the same liberality towards them on a future occasion. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Lloyd Jones objected to the word "gift" or "present" being used, and said there was a distinction made in the terms read to the meeting and the letter sent to the Board; but the only distinc- tion he pointed out was that the word "gift" was not inserted in the terms whilst it was in the original letter —hence, he should have thought Mr. Jones would have been the first to support the motion before the vestry, as that offensive word had been expunged. (Hear, hear.) Their English friends had a saying, "that a rose called by any name will smell as sweet," &c., aud he thought that the sweet odour of the £4,500 (laughter) which Colonel Pennant offered to the town would have smelt as sweet, and proved as acceptable to the ratepayers, whether it be called a gift, a present, or by whatever name they might choose to designate it. (Applause.) Mr. OWEN EVANS-My opinion is that we ought to take more time over it, before coming to any decision. I think that 210,000 was not more than what we should reasona- bly ask. In sacrificing the rating of the Port, we should not swallow the offer all at once; but let us pause awhile, and see what can be done. I repeat that we are forming a bad precedent. Shortly, I expect we shall all be coming up as tradesmen, asking you to accept of a compromise for our rates, and pay an equivalent of 10s. for 20s. Depend upon it, sooner or later the precedent will most assuredly be acted upon by others. I now beg to propose the following amendment:—"That the present vestry has not had sufficient time to consider the proposal made on behalf of Colonel Pennant and that the vestry be adjourned to this day fortnight, for the production of the plans, minute books, and other documents of the Board, bearing on this question." Mr. LLOYD JONES seconded the amendment, and went on to observe that Mr. Douglas had said they had no right to call upon the Board to produce their documents at the vestry. Without discussing the tight, lie thought it should have been complied with as a matter of courtesy. (Hear, hear.) One question occurred to everybody in discussing the subject of a compromise,- What are the probabilities of success? If the documents were produced -say,the mtp-il; would appear at first sight to everybody that the Port was within the district of the Board of Health at the time the Board was formed. If they agreed to a compromise, it should be such a compromise as would regard the honour and the interest of the people of Bangor. He (Mr. Jones) mentioned at a previous vestry the expense to which the Board would be put to if they once drifted into litigation, and he was met by Mr. Douglas saying it would be a mere bagatelle; and if the Beard believed so, and felt so confident of success, they should have carried the case through. Mr. G. JAMES—What a pity I It's a great disappoint- ment to the lawyers. (Laughter, and cries of Chair.") Mr. JONES—But lawyers have some regard to honour. In accepting the compromise, they assume that Port Pen- rhyn should be rated, and that the opinion of the Court of Queen's Bench would be in favour of the ratepayers, hence Colonel Pennant would be liable to pay the rate. Mr. GOLD EDWARDS—And if the Court above should decide otherwise, what then ? Mr. JONES—That is just what I say. Why, if so, it woald not be right to accept the money. But if you make a compromise in this way you will be doing what the law does not confer upon the Board any right to do. You have only a right to make it py petition. Mr. G. JAMES—We are going to Sir George Grey to alter the law. Mr. JOHN ROBEMe, (in Welsh), taunted Mr. Lloyd Jones with inconsistency. At a late Vestry he blamed the Board for going te law, and spoke of the enormous expense that would be entailed upon the town and now, instead of accepting a compromise, he seemed ready to sac- rifice everything rather than forego legal proceedings He thoroughly approved of the course proposed, and hoped the meeting wottW signify their appreciation of the liberal offer made by Colonel Pennant, (Cheers.) Mr. THOS. JONES wished to know if any gentleman present had any notion of the expenses already incurred by the parish ? No reply was made to this enquiry. The amendment was then put ta the meeting, only three or four hands being held up in its favour. The mo- tion was then put, and a forest of hands were heM up, only that of Mr. Lloyd Jones being exhibited against it. Mr. JUfES-Mr. Lloyd Jones is lika "the last rose of mmmer," blooming alone. (Loud laughter.) SURVEYOR OT HIGHWAYS, &C. The Oversef-.W and Surveyor of Highways accounts were then examined, and passed in the usual way. Mr. Morris Roberts, Surveyor of the Highways, having held that office for 15 years, begged to tender his resigna- tion, as he was leaving the parish, and thanked the parishoners for the confidence reposed in him during that time. The Vestry requested him to continue in office till Match next, when the usual appointment of parish officers will be made, which he consented to do. The meeting then terminated with a vote of thanks to the rev. Vicar for his conduct in the chair.







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