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HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY March…

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HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY March 12. The Earl of Ellenborough moved for certain returns connected with the execution by the British authorities in China of the Supplemental Treaty of 1817. Those returns related to three articles of that treaty, which aimed at the prevention of smuggling and illicit trade and, now that we were disposed to be severe on the Chiaese as to their execution of treaty obligations, it was desirable to know whether British officials had been scrupulous in their observance of those obligations. The noble lord then passed to the subject of the reinforcements about to be sent to China, and contended that they would arrive too late, or, at any rate, at such a time of the year as to render the troops liable to gret mortality. He trusted, too, that the Government would take care that the (roop ships were not overcrowded, and that proper arrangements would be made for their ventilation. He had beard with great re- gret that it was intended to send out some important personage as a Plenipotentiary, that there was to be an expedition directed against other parts of China besides • Canton, and that there was to be a joint interference in Chinese affairs with other nations. All these propositions, if carried out, would only impede our operations and em- bitter our quarrel, which, in his opinion, ought to be brought to as speedy a settlement as was possible. The noble lord concluded by moving for the returns. Lord Panmure said that the present season of the year vas, no doubt, the worst for sending troops to China with a view to military operations. The Government, however, on mature consideration, had resolved that the course about to be pursued was the only one suited to the emer- gency. The troops about to be sent to China were already under orders for India, and to India they would proeeed if on their arrival in China it was found they were not wanted. Every precaution would be taken to send them out in a state of efficiency. It had also been determined not to make use of any native Indian troops on the present occasion. Earl Grey wished to know whether the Government had received by the last mail despaches of an alarming nature. The Earl of Clarendon said that Admiral Seymour, as had been already stated on a former occasion, had an- nounced to the Government his intention of abandoning some of his positions before Canton owing to the threaten- ing aspect of affairs at Hongkong. With regard to the returns moved for by Lord Ellenborough, there could be no objection to producing them. The motion was then agreed to. Some other business was afterwards despatched, and their Lordships adjourned. FRIDAY, MARCH 13. I Lord Campbell gave notice that, owing to the impending dissolution of Parliament, he did not propose to proceed any further with the committee for inquiring into the freedom of reports. Lord Derby gave notice that on Monday next, when the Income-tax Bill was read a second time, he intended to make some remarks on the circumstances under which an appeal was about to be made to the country. The Marquis of Clanricarde moved for the correspon- dence connected with the cost of the expedition to Persia. 1 It appeared that half the expense was to be-charged to the revenue of India; but, considering that the normal con- dition of Indian finance was a dcficit, amounting latterly to E2,000,000 a-year, and that the new loans proposed had not been taken up, it was hard to see how the Indian Government was to find the money. The Earl of Malmcbbury complained that the country, on the eve of a dissolution, was left in complete ignorance as to the Persian war. That war had been begun, carried on, and concluded without one word of information having been given on the subject by the Government. He was aware that, technically speaking, the treaty could not be laid before Parliament until it had been ratifle(I but still he thought a sketch of its details might be afforded before the dissolution. The Earl of Clarendon, after this appeal from Lord Malmesbury, proceeded to lay before the House the chief stipulations of the treaty recently signed between the British and Persian Governments, and concluded by saying there was nothing in those stipulations contrary to the honour or interests of Persia. It was, in fact, a treaty which, if faithfully carried out in the spirit in which it had been negotiated, would be for the mutual advantage of both countries. The Earl of Ellenborough thought the war was justifi- able if it aimed alone at preventing the occupation of I-Ierat, the gate of India, by the Persians. Whatever be said to the contrary, and though Russia for the time might have reconsidered her position and refrained from hostile advances, it was certain that the march of a Russian army on India was no impossibility. Much had een said of railways and telegraphs and canals in India, but it must never be forgotten that our Empire in the East was founded by the sword and must be maintained by the sword. It was on well equipped, well disciplined, and well commanded armies that our ascendancy in India de- pended. Now, when he looked back on the events of the last tew months, the prospect of affairs in the East filled him with dismay. We had two wars on our hands, both owing to bad appointments. To Sir John Bowring we were indebted for the Chinese war, and to Mr. Murray for that with Persia. The talent required to manage Orientals was altogether peculiar, and however great Mr. Murray's ability might have been in Europe he was quite incompetent to manage matters in the East. The Earl of Clarendon defended the appointment of Mr. Murray, who, so far from having no Oriental expe- rience, had spent six years of his life in the East, and was so thoroughly acquainted with Oriental languages as to be able to converse fluently with the Schah of Persia in his own language. After some further discussion the motion was agreed to. Some other business was then despatched, and their lordships adjourned. MONDAY, MARCH 16. Their Lordships met at 5 o'clock. On the motion for the second reading of the Income Tax Bill, The Earl of Derby rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of their Lordships to the circumstances under which the present appeal is made to the country. After referring to and regretting the position of financial af- fairs, which he thought must result in the Government having to meet a deficiency of no less than E6,500,000 in 18,58, he said that nothing but urgent and systematic economy could avail us. On the army and navy but small reductions could be made, but the Miscellaneous Esti- mates had been swelled to a formidable amount by the extravagance of Parliaments, and on those much saving might be effected. The system of economy on which the country must mainly depend was, after all, its policy. The Government must substitute a reasonable, conciliatory spirit for a tone of braggadocia and menace—they must prepare not to meddle with the interal concerns of any nation, nor to use a lauguage of threat and intimidation to Powers which, even though the weakest, were still too proud to listen to it. With such a system, indeed, might the Government keep down the expenditure of the army but if, on the contrary, it adopted the other dangerous principle, and if the discretion or indiscretion of officials Was to commit the country to a war, they must give up, once for all, the idea of economy, arm themselves cap-a- pie, and prepare to meet all comers at all times. Refer- ring to the recent division come to by the House of Com- mons with regard to the affairs of China, Lord Derby deniid that the Government had any just cause for com- plaint at the steps which had been taken, or that any party or parties had been actuated by the motive of em- barrassing Her Majesty's Government. The papers which had been laid before Parliament had been given to them solely with a view of enabling them to come to some de- cision on the question. It was not Parliament which had forced Ministers to take on themselves the responsibility of their subordinates' conduct it was Ministers who had assumed it voluntarily. Had the Government, when the papers were laid before Parliament, announced then that they intended to do what they had done since, and that they would send out a Plenipotentiary to inquire into the management of affairs in Canton, little more would have been heard from Parliament on the subject. But, not doing this, when members most reluctantly but con- scientiously voted as they had done on the recent division of the House of Commons there arose the cry of unna- tural coalition and unfair combination. That charge was a gross calumny, and he repelled it as such. Both him- self and the party that acted with him were guiltless in word and deed of having given any just ground for such an imputation. His Lordship, having given this solemn denial, then entered into a long explanation as to what he believed had been the course taken in the House of Commons by the various political parties which had voted in favour of Mr. Cobden's motion, and said that the mere tact of that motion having been brought forward by Mr. Cobden indisposed some members of the Conservative party to act in support of it at all. Not long ago, when the Government opposed Mr. Locke King's motion, it only commanded a miserable attendance of 31 followers, of which number 21 were officials. The Conservative party, governed only by their principles, came to Lord Palmerston's assistance, placed him in a majority of I;i, and saved him from the fate of Act.Ton-that of being devoured by his own hounds. That was the conduct of the Conservatives on that occasion, though it was the fashion now to accuse them of coalition and combination. After a brief allusion to the episcopal bench, in which rd Derby expressed his regret that the names of some ght rev. prelates should be sounded by parties in the r°h as a proof of sectarian bias, he proceeded to refer to foreign affairs, condemning some maritime concessions :de by Lord Palmerston during the Conferences at Paris, anj ak° most strongly the course taken in the Neapo- !ita ^a'r- He professed his utter ignorance of the Poli f which the country was to secure by supporting Lord ^aln'8011- He thought it was difficult to recognise the ?""?? among the many attributes, all more or less ineot)a'? with each other, ascribed to him by his vaii- ous 8?P°''?rs, and he believed, out of the many por- traits ° Palmerston would have great difficulty in re- cognis ? himself. But that for which Lord Derby most c°ndem 6 was the ease with which he yielded up '"S con??°? °D the least external pressure, giving as ?stances th6 which the question of the tea duties had been t had been treated, and his conduct -?:th regard to Sir J. ?'Nein ?.?d ?Colonel Tulloch. In conclusion, Lord Derby said that, if Lord Palmerston adhered to a conciliatory policy abroad and acted firmly in resisting uncailed-for in- novations at homo, he would find no warmer or more con- sistent supporters than the much abused and vilified Con- servative party. But if he pursued a contrary course of actiou, he hoped and believed that the Conservatives would be strong enough to save him from his own supporters and to check him in his downward course. Earl Granville said, lie thought that Lord Derby had used his position in that House quite legitimately in mak ing the speech to which they had just listened, for, con- sidering the conduct of some of his supporters, and the nature of the addresses they were putting forth, it seemed quite natural and right that Lord Derby should make a statement which might serve as a model and a standard of the political creed of the members of his party. After briefly noticing the financial objections, Lord Granville vindicated the home policy of the Government, and re- minded their Lordships of the time when Lord Derby was at the head of a Government, and when, notwithstanding the vital questions on which he differed from the rest of the country, he continued to meet their Lordships night after night, and fence with them on the question of whe- ther or not he would go to the country for Protection or Free Trade. He explained the course pursued by the Government with regard to Sir John M'Neill and Colonel Tulloch, and adverted to the skill with which Lord Derby had avoided noticing the many favourable aspects which '.he foreign relations of this country now presented, and how close and intimate was the understanding which existed with the Emperor of the French, with Austria, and other great Powers of Europe. For the same reasons Lord Derby had but little dwelt upon the Persian war, which had so signally maintained the honour and interests of this country. Referring to the vote on the Chinese question, Lord Granville expressed his belief in the solemn pledge given by Lord Derby, but at the same time went at some length into the question of the statements made by the 112-ess newspaper with reference to a combination between Mr. Gladstone and the Conservative party, with a view to account for the generally expressed opinion as to a combination of parties having attempted to drive Government from office. He vindicated the Episcopal Bench from the charge of latitudinarianism, which had been hinted against some members of it, and regretted that Lord D^rby should have made an almost personal attack upon Lord Palmerston. The best answer he could make to that attack was to refer for a moment to Lord Derby's anxiety to secure the official services of Lord Palmerston when he was seeking to form an Administra- tion in ISoo. With regard to their having no policy on which to appeal to the country, he thought the question of whether the electors were willing to support the present Government was sufficient, and he believed that its result would be triumphant to Lord Palmerston's Adminis- tration. The Earl of Malaiesbury briefly recapitulated some of the arguments used by Lord. Derby, and added his denial to what had been already stated with regard to an asserted coalition or combination of parties to bring about the adverse vote in the House of Commons. The Earl of Hard-.vicke also expressed his deep indig- nation at the general tore in which Lord Derby's explana- tion had been noticed by L))d .Granville. It was, be thought, neither courteous, HIT even -honourable, so to act in the face of Lord Derby's solemn denial of any coalition with any party. Earl Granville briefly explained, and theit Lordships adjourned. TUESDAY, MARCH 17. The Lord Chancellor, in reply' to Lord Sf. Leonard's, stated that it was his intentiori'tn ht iag in a Bill next ses- sion on the subject of Criminal B/eaohes "f Trust.. Lord Hardwicke press the propuctioit of the des- patches recently received fey the Government from Sir- Michael Seymour. Lord Granville promised to see that the despatches were produced. A discussion then arose as to the judgment of Sir John Bo-vring, and as to the position in which he stood as to rank and authority with regard to Sir Michael Seymour. In this discussion Lords Hardwieke, Grey, Granville, Ellenborough, Derby, and Panmure took part. Lord Clanricarde then inquired as to the rate of pay which the troops sent to China were to receive, and whether Indian camp followers were to be attached to them. Lord Panmure explrnned the arrangements in force with regard to the pay of the troops who would form the Chinese expedition, and stated that a certain number of camp fol- lowers would be furnished by the Indian Government and attached to the several regiments. The Earl of Ellenborough explained the uses of camp followers, and made from his Indian experiences several suggestions for improving the efficiency of the troops. lIe then passed on to deplore French co-operation with the British arms in China, and concluded by declaring that much time might be saved by employing the troops set free by the Persian trnty, instead of those about to be sent from England. Lord Panmure having thanked Lord Ellenborough for his advice, Lord Grey deplored the extension which was evidently to be given to the operations against China. Lord Granville reminded Lord Grey that the best means to secure a speedy peace, was to negotiate with a strong force behind you. The matter then dropped, and several bills having been forwarded a stage, their Lordships adjourned. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 18. The House sat for a short time, when several bills were forivarded a stage. -r-

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