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CARMARTHENSHIRE ADJOURNED…

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CARMARTHENSHIRE ADJOURNED QUARTER SESSIONS. The fourth adjournment of the Quarter Sessions for the county of Carmarthen was held on Tuesday, at the Shire Hall. There were present D. Pugh, Esq., Chair- man Col. Trevor, M.P. D. A. S. DHics, E-q., M.P. D. Morris Esq., M.P. Sir J„ H. Williams, Bart. Sir John Mansel, Bart.; J. E. Saunders; J. LI. Davies R. G. Thomas; J W. Phillipps II. Lawrence, M. D. T. Jones, M. D. R. P Beynon D. Prytherch Lewis Evans; C. Morgan, senior, M. D. C. Morgan, junior; D. J. Edwards; Grismond Phillips; J. LI. Price; D. Davies; T. C. Morris; E. Wood, Esquires, and the Rev. John Williams. Col. Trevor, rose and said that this adjournment of the S<,ssions had been held for the purpose of continuing the efforts of the magistrates to establish a Rural Police force for the county. A question had arisen as to whe- ther the rate necessary for the maintenance of the Police could be legally made at the adjournment of the Sessions, or whether the rate must be raised:Jt a Gene- ral Quarter Sessions He had taken the opinion of counsel, aml had asked the advice of Mr. Hall, of Bow- street; he had not, however, as he hoped, been able to obtain the opinion of Her Majesty's Attorney-General. From all he could gather, he was of opinion that it would not be advisable to raise the rate now, and as a doubt existed, which doubt could not be satisfactorily setat ie.it at present, he should move that the question of raising the rate for the maintenance of the Rural Police be adjourned until the 19th of October next, that being the General Quarter Sessions. Sir James Ilamlyn Williams protested against the establishment of a Rural Police. The people were already in a riotous state and nothing could be more inducive to them to riot still more than the imposing of an additional burden on them of 1,000 or £5000 a year. As an amendment he begged to propose that the ques- tion be adjourned till that day 12 months. Col. Trevor said that the Police Force had actually been established. Sir James Hamlyn Williams said that the magistrates might establish the force, they might levy the rate, but he doubted much if the farmer either could or woulù pay it, anù the m"gi"trates woulLl then ùe under the necessity of distraining for it. God knew the people had real grievances enough to complain of, and why had not thoc grievances been redressed at the proper time. All there were against Rebecca; he however had thatmorn- iog seen an instance of the scrupulousness with which she carried out her claims for justice. He had passed through Abcrgwilly gate that morning, and he found that she had left the gate standing across the main line of road, while the side bar adjoining, which was ob- noxious, had been demolished, God forbid that he shouLl encourage her going out of a night armed, but as if anything were wanting to prove the justice of her claims-if anything were wanting to prove the existence of grievances, 13 out of L5 side bars on one Trust only, had been taken down by the Trustees themselves. Why were not these done awav with at first ? Why did the Trustees wait until outrages had been committed? Let all grievanees be promptly redressed, and let stipenùiary magistrates tJe appointed for the county, and then all "'ou1d be quiet and peaceable. Gael knew there was not much reason to talk of the dignity of Carmarthenshire Magistracy; for his part, he firmly believed and he ven- tured to affirm that the magistrates had completely lost the confidence of the people. (Cries of No" from the Bench). There might be a few exceptions, but ge;1Crally speaking, it was unfortunately the case. He begged to reiterate his opinion that until all grievances were redressed and stipendiary magistrates appointed, no peace was to be hoped for in the county. CoÏ. Trevor was sorry that on a mere question of ad- journment, the Hon. Bart, should have thought it right to have uttered sentiments which, as a magistrate, he ought to r.3Ye hesitated in expressing. He had ail but sanctioned the procceedings of Rebecca. lie had talked of pulling down a side-bar, but was he aware that be- tween 60 and 100 gates and side-bars had been pulled down and demolished. Outrages of every sort had been committed by people calling themselves the children of Rebecca. It was only the previous day he had visited a large fire, one of three that had occurred on Sunday last, on the property of a gentleman whose only crime was that he had been an active mgistratc and had headed the troops to put down an outrage on a Turn- pike Gate. They had gone out armed at night, and in one instance they had even appeared armed in broad daylight. They had appeared armed at the house of the agent of Mr. Rees Goring Thomas, at Llanon, and had not only fired at the house, but had selected his bedroom as the chief object of attack. The very curtains of the bed in which Mr. Edwards lay were perfectly riddled with shot, many of which were very near the pillow. His daughter had attempted to go to the door and she had been fired at. Was this a state of things to be allowed to continue or to treat lightly ? He was not prepared to say but that there had been gates put up.-hc would not say illegally—but in situations where perhaps in strictness they ought not to have been. But there was nothing to justify the outrages that were con- tinually committing. Let them state their grievances fearlessly and openly, and desist from that course of violence in a county hitherto so peaceable which perilled either the property or the existence of all within it. He did not know other causes for disaffec- tion, but he believed therc were many alleged. There had been committees appointed on the various Trusts to enquire into the grievances one on the Newcastle Trust, another on the Main Trust, and he believed one either was or would be appointed on the Whitland Trust, at least he had recommenùed it at a meeting he attended lately. More would have been formed, but that the Government had, at the earnest request of the magistrates, sent down Mr. Hall and other Commis- sioners to investigate the grievances on the different Trusts. That circumstance and that circumstance alone had put a stop to the formation of committees on other Trusts, as it was deemed more proper to entrust the enquiry into the Trust affairs to a stranger, and to an impartial magistrate, rather than to the Trustees who were of course interested parties themselves. If the Hon. Baronet had attended earlier meetings of the magistrates, he would haye been quite as conversant with these affairs as any one there present. The ques- tion of a stipendiary magistrate he wonld not argue upon. He knew of at least one spot in the county in the immediate district of the present disturbances, where there was no resident magistrate, he meant Llanon. In that quarter he thought the services of a stipendiary magistrate might be extivmely useful. He was, however, far from thinking that the Carmarthen- shire magistracy had lost the confidence of the people of the county. He had been ill constant communica- tion with the magistrates, both in his official capa- city as Vice Lieutenant, and also in his private capacity, and he must say that he had not only not seen any backwardness to do their duty as magis- trates, but he had also seen the greatest alacrity dis- played to remove any real grievances. There were no doubt many grievances to complain of, but there is this to be said, that where a person in the station, in life of the Hon. Burt., and holding the property in the county that he does, made such statements as he- had done that day, it was more than probable that whoiv any want of confidence had been felt, that want of confidence would be increased very materiality. He was reminded by Capt. Edwards—and he wondered how it had escaped his mcr;¡ory-that only the day previous a poor woman who collected tolls at Hendy Bridge gate had been shot in the face and brutally murdered by a party of fellows who came to destroy the gate. He did not stand up there to vindicate any, but he thought all persons would agree that the magistrates had done all b. 1' b in their power to put a stop to the disturbances in the county. Mr. J. Lloyd Davies said that if any of the people might have had their confidence shaken, he did not know anything mere ealculatnl to shalc the confidence of the whole: of them than what had fallen from the lIon. Bart. that clay. He believed that the magistrates of this county had acted with an impartially and integrity never equalled by the magistracy of any other county. (Hear, hear.) If the burdens Oil the roor fanners are great—and he kne;v they were—if the laws press heavy on them, it was surely too much to visit the fault of those laws upon the magistrates who were only the administrators of the laws as they are. Sir James H. Williams had heard on ooc1 authority that the Trust money has been expended in a most disgraceful way. All the people say so, and would it not therefore have been better to satisfy the people by appointing a Committee to investigate the affairs of each Trust? lie repeated that he had heard that the Trust money had been expended in a most disgraceful manner. Mr. J. Lloyd Davies called upon the Hon. Bait, to nam-e the Trust. If the Trust were named, he was per- fectly sure there was not a man in the Commission of the Peace who would not at once join in appointing a Committee or in taking any other steps that might be conducive to the obtaining of justice. There were charges brought against the Newcastle Trust, and a committee had been at oncc appointed at the suggestion of a Barrister-a gentleman certainly of no congenial politics to himself or many other Trustees. The Report of -,at Committee had been issued and nothing could be more satisfactory. It was proyed that evey penny received had been expended, a large portion of the Money berrowed had heen paid, in fact, as much as £ 1200 within four years. Numerous other equally satisfactory statements were made. Capt. Evans said that so far from the report having given ¡:,e;1cral satisfaction he knew th<1.t it had been a soaree of very general complaint. Sir John iansel said that wllatHer were the gene- ral complaint, it ought tn he remembered that a gentle- man from Landen had teen investigating the accounts, and if that did not give satisfaction, he did not know what would. Capt. Evans said that he had been one of that com- mittee, and he k:1l'W that the aceolmts lnd only been gone into for a certain period of time and not so far back as they ought to Lave been. Besides, there were lTlany items for w1.ieh 1:0 vouchers were s hown. As much as could be done was done, but there were no vouchers produecd for a reat many item, which were entered without particulars. Mr. R. G. Thomas, was much astonished at what had! fallen from the Iln. Baror.et. anti Captain Evans. He (Mr. T.) haù the honour of being elected Chairman of: the committee en the Newcastle Trust, of which ccm- mittee Capt. Evans himself was one. Capt. Evans had concurred with him in suggesting to Mr. Lloyd Hall the careful investigation of the whole accounts. Now as Mr. Hall had been appointed delegate for the neigh- bouring parishes who feit aggrieved, he was of course to take up the accounts at the very earliest period, to use every exertion, to sift the accounts thoroughly and in fact, to leave no stone unturned by which he could serve the interests of his clients. Surely if he thought fit in the exercise of his discretion only to ask for an investigation of the accounts for a certain period, it was not right for the committee to gainsay him. Well, this committee pursued its labours, and it was found that every shilling of the money had been laid out in a pro- per way. When he and Captain Evans said that the vouchers had not been produced for some items, Mr. Hall said he had no doubt the payment were regularly made, and the vouchers produced at the time. He had heard that there were gross instances of the appropria- tion of Trust money to private purposes, and when he had examined the accounts, he found no such thing. It was true the Trust was heavily in debt, but why ? Because the Trustees had effected very considerable improvements on the road. Those improvements reflected great credit on the Trustees, and on Mr. John Lloyd Davies, for there never was a greater boon con- ferred on the county than the formation of that road of which he might say, Mr. Lloyd Davies was the architect. Some years ago the Trustees thought fit to increase the tolls 50 per cent. in order to pay the expenses of this road, and from what he understood, the farmers counted the old tolls again. Now the tally holders did not wait to be asked; they said we have no objection to reduce our interest from;) per cent. to 3t per cent. It was found that with this reduction the tolls would be sufficient for the purposes of the road and the payment of the interest, the committee there- fore suggested the reduction of the tolls to the old price, and the Trustees acted upon that suggestion. So much for the Newcastle Emlyn Trust. Before I sit down I must be allowed to say a word or two on the charge against the Trustees and magistrates so widely made, first through the columns of The Times, and now more pointedly here by the Hon. Bart. The first time he plr. T ) heard of Turnpike grievances was when the gates were knocked down. He never heard a complaint about anything else until The Tunes reporter came into the country. There were no com- plaints about the Tithes, Poor Law, or Rents until he found them out. The disturbances first commenced in the Hundred of Derllis, they then extended to the Hundred of Ehet. A large meeting of the county magistrates convened by the Vice Lieutenant, was held at Newcastle Emlyn, for the purpose of meeting the delegates of all the neighbouring parishes, and saying, "Here we are to meet you; tell, us your grievances, and we will endeavour to redress them." The only grievance then complained of was that of the Turnpike Tolls on the Newcastle Trust. He had since that meeting called together many farmers, and having asked them to state their grievances, has heard of no other than the Tolls. Other gentlemen had adopted the same method in other districts, with the same result. It is surely hard then, that the magistrates, after having used every exertion to discover grievances, should be accused of having turned a deaf ear to the voice of a suffering people. He thought no one so accursed as those who, instead of relieving their poorer brethren, sought to oppress them. He apologized for trespassing on the time of the meeting, but assured them that other committees on other Trusts would have been appointed, but that it was considered that if an impartial person came down from the Government he would give more satisfaction than any person or persons appointed by the magistrates of the county. The Government, therefore, sent down Mr. Hall at the express solicitation of the magistrates, who said, We have had certain grave charges preferred against us, and we wish for some impartial person to examine into the truth or untruth of them." With this view he was sent down as a stranger to hear the grievances of the people. Capt. Evans said that he had nothing to do with the appointment of Mr. Lloyd Hall, as delegate, but he contended that the new Conwil i oad was no benefit to the parishes through which it ran. In the report of the Committee it was said that the debt was created by the money laid out on the new Conwil road Mr. Hall, the Commissioner, has heard evidence relating to that fact, and it will be rather awkward if it is found that he re- ports differently to that. He reiterated his statement that there were many items fur which there were no vouchers, and said that in most instances the accounts were lumped together. Mr. J. Lloyd Davies was not altogether sorry that he had had this opportunity of adverting to the outlay on the new Conwil road. He maintained that a greater benefit has not been conferred on the county of Car- marthen than the formation of that road for the last cen- tury. (Cheers.) If any impartial person were to judge of the matter it would be impossible for him to deny the truth of that statement. Formerly it took a farmer two hours to do six miles, it now will take him only half the time This was of course a very great object to the poor limer, especially when it was considered that for e.ery two loads c"1.nicd formerly they now carried fifteen, or twenty, and that entirely owing to the new roat1. The tolls ha.d been increased no less than 1.; 1 ,200 a-year by the new road. Two carts with one horse in each now carried twice as much as before with three horses in each. The limers of the county of Cardigan, even from Newquay, come over that road for lime, and there is an area of nearly twenty miles in that district that has been entirely limed from this county since the new- road was made. The expense was calculated at £;3,000 only. He however had always said that it could be done for £1,000 (as we understand); some of his friends had told him that he was fitter for a lunatic asylum when he said so. He, however, cared not for individual opinions,but where he had conferred a benefit he expected every man to be honest and impartial enough to acknowledge it. (Cheers.) He certainly did think the tolls too high, and 5 years ago he had drawn up a copy of an order reducing the rate of interest from 5 per cent. to 4 per cent. Mr. U. E. Jones the clerk then applied to every Tallyholder to give his consent to the reduction, and every one, gentle and simple, refused. He wished them to have the tolls reduced to the old rate, but of course it could not be dune while 5 per cent interest was paid. They have now adopted the old rates at his proposition. The Act says the new road must pay for itself, but of course any one can go over the old road if he please, at a cheaper rate, but he will have a much worse road, Well, the Xewcastle Union had been tried, and it had been ascertained, that the clerk, the surveyor, treasurer, and trustees, had all done their duty faithfully. Let all the Trust go through the same ordeal, but until their trial take place, it is unfair, unj ust, and unhonourable to cast out charges against them. If he knew of a blot on any Trust, he would at once say, there is the Trust and there is the blot, and he was quite sure every Trustee would lend his aid to expunge the blot. But this method of casting reflec- tions on the Turnpike Trusts, if not the way to redress grievances was no deubt a good pbn for creating a transient popularity. It may be done fur the purposc of bccoming popular, or it may be done in the hope of living securely while all around were attacked. But if it were so, that was no right feeling towards one's neighbour, and it should be remembered that there is a responsibility to a higher power. Our lots are all cast in perilous times, we are all bound together by every tie, the ycry humblest man owes his obedience to the law as much as the richest man. If they wish for a transient popularity, let them be answerable for it. It is a duty all owed that they should ubey the law, and have it administered with mercy. But he would ask, what mercy is there in midnight meeting, and torches ? What merc)" is there in murder ? He exhorted the farmers to live in peace together. He knew that the commercial stagnation affected the landlord deeply, but Ire also felt quite certain, that if asked, there was not a man on that Dcnch, but what would make an allowance on the audit day. (Cheers.) Let them go to their landlords they will be treated kindly, and this storm will then blow by and all will be as it was wont. Let the farmers recollect that by giving countenance to mid- night outrages they only placed themselves in the hands of a parcel of men who had nothing to lose, and who would turn round upon them and say, if you don't give me so and so, I have you in my power and will give information against you." He besought the farmers to go hand in hand with the landlords. If the Poor Law is objectionable, (and he knew it was, and had always lifted up his yoice against it from the com- mencement,) the way to obtain redress was to go to the legislature at once. If it were found that the plan would not succeed, then they might throw the poor law overboard, maintain their own poor, and make a road rate. The largest parish in Cardiganshire maintained its own poor, and kept them hedging instead of allowing them to go into the \orkhousc. And this course might be adopted everywhere if the law he not altered. He, however, was of opinion that there was no law in the statute book, but what might be altered if it was opposed in a eonstitutional and legal manner. He greatly regretted that the Hon. Baronet had made use of such unguarded expressions, which under present cir- cumstances could not be productive of much lrarm, anJ he had thought it his (Mr. D's) duty to poirt- out to the farmers the evil tendency of their midnight out- rages. He said this as one of them, as identified with them by birth, by habits, and everything else, and had nothing more to do, but to impress upon all the necEssity of peace ar.d obedicncc to the law. The chairman said that unless the perpetrators of the late outrages desist ed, the time would come when thev would find themselves involved in a contest with the government of the country. The arm of government would he sufficiently powerful to quell all disturbances and to punish the offenders. He made these ohserva- tions only in the spirit of friendly advice to the mis- guided persons who are led into evil because they had no strength of mind to resist. If they did not take care they would find themselves led on from delusion to de- lusion, and from pride to pride, until they would be over- taken by the law, and their once peaceful and indus- trious homes would be broken up, themselves torn from their homes and families, and doomed to spend their lingering dnvs in miserable exile. (HeaL) It was not for him to say there were no grievances, but if a scarch- ing investigation could discover and remedy them, not an hour should be lost in bringing them to light. He trusted all things would be done to restore peace ccn- sisfceivt with the principles of eternal justice. He might then hope to see restored to the county that peace which rests for its foundation on a happy and united people. (Cheers.) Col. Trevor said that he was altogether sorry that this discussion had arisen. The question however simply was whether the raising of a rate should be postponed till the next General Quarter Sessions. The amendment of the Hon. Bart. not having been seconded would fall to the ground, but it was in fact too late. The Police Force had been already established, and any person might now move for a mandamus to compel the magistrates to make the rate. Sir J. H. Williams said that he found his amendment came too late and he therefore withdrew it. He there- fore begged to enter his protest against the establish- ment of a Rural Police. The motion was then carried, and the Sessions was adjourned.

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