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TITHE AGlTATlOiN 1N NOlrfH…

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TITHE AGlTATlOiN 1N NOlrfH WALES, THE LEADERS OF TilK CONFLICTING FORCES IXTMHYIKW?D. I DEAN OWEN ON "CON- SCIENTIOUS OBJECTIONS." -Alit. THOMAS GEES OPINION (IF TUb c. MILITARY OCCUPATION." [FROM OCR SPKCIAL CORRESPONDENT,j DKNBIUII, FRIDAY. "The Man in the Street" knows of two characters only in connection with thetithewar. V\ hen the matter is mentioned to him his mind instinctively conjines up the names of Mean 1 wen and Mr. Thomas • oe. These are the IIYO 1111111 who have indelibly stamped their personality on the conflict between militant Pissent and the assailed I'piscopa- iiaiiism. Opponents may with-hold from the rtiiior i> tbe* Br tier the virtue of rigid adhes'on to exalted principles; may dismiss him summarily as a leader of a party wbo"e polii'.eai opportunism overpowers his purely religious ii stincts. I5ut they cannot ignore his power nor denv the astuteness and intel- botual capacity w hi eh have won him that power. Mr. i homas Gee is the !'Opt1 of the political Nonconformists of North Wales, with machinery a' his command for proclaiming his opinions in a district where no antidote is available tor the virus he may chose to inject hymens of the Bansr. lie embodies in Denbighshire all the forces represented by the hand League 111 Ireland. This is the man who has breathed life into the Anti-tithe League, and, in spire of the official neglect of the Welsh iiadicals as a body and their in- difference individually, has kept it from going to pieces. Circumstances as much as the utsposinon of the able youn? Welshman h?ve marked out Dean Owen for a leading part in the tithe agitation. Dr. dw?cda. who wields a trenchant, caustic pan, has been constrained by the responsible duties of his holy offioe from taking that lead which, in normal con- dit ions, would naturally devolve upon the chief dignitary of the Church in the Diocese of St. Asaph. Thus it is that the gauntlet has been taken up by John Dwell, who, whether as professor at Lampeter, principal of Llandovery College, or Dean of t. .^saph.has retained a IQVO for his country and the Cymrio people as pronounced as the Welsh accent which clings to his speech. Tho nationalism of Deau Owen is not put on aud put off like a garment. It taturatt-s his very being. Knowledge of this fact is necessary in order to appreciate the jealous care with which, when combatting the violent and, as bethinks, mischievous nation- alism of the Anti-tithe League, he avoids every expression calculated to wound the susceptibilities of the Welsh or to humour anti-Welsh prejudices. lie loves his country best who strives to make it best," was the sage verdict which the inspirer of another national movement bequeathed to posterity. Ilean Owen acts as if he had it always in mind. This characteristic was in silent, eloquent evidence when I saw him at St. Asaph Deanery to-day and heard his opinions regarding the tithe movement, ex-j pressed in a tone suggesting the sorrow of a patriot rather than the resentment of a partisan. When I unexpectedly invaded the Deanery—its env ironments now resplendent with gay flowers in full bloom-I discovered the dean in the act of parting with a clerical friend. He welcomed me with the warmth of an old friend. lIe led the way to the study, where, before the interruption, he had been committing to paper a reply to Mr. Osborne Morgans letter in the 77 meg. This fact was conveyed to me in the form of a confession that the subject which had brought me to St. Asaph had already taken up some of his time. I opened the attack without much beating about the bush with, "Are you satisfied, )-)ean (f%ven, with the r,ults of Mr. Stevens expedition b Llannefydd and the two adjoin- ing parishes It is not a matter of satisfaction to any TVelshinan, was the reply, ''that the necessity has occurred for introducing the militaiy into a rural parish 'l'ng ngwlad y menvg gwynion.' But. since the military had to be brought down, it ii, ] third;, satisfactory that the money was collected and the incident terminated with- out violence. Since force had to be used to collect the tithe from these misguided farmers, it was a wise and judicious act to introduce enough of it to place resistance out of the (iiiesloi). It is a matter for rejoicing that the soldiers acted with such discretion that, while exercising an effectual restraint upon lawlessness, they have not caused unnecessary fiiction. Indeed, [ am assured that the soldiers were personally rather popular with the anti-tithe agitators." hat is your opinion of the conscien- tious objection' to the appropriation of the tithe, illeged to be the moving cause of the agiiacion r Do you believe it to be a genuine and PCH\u:rtul factor in the tithe war T here has certainly been a great deal of talk about conscience in connection with the movement, and 1 do not suggest for a moment that this talk is mere cant or con- scious hypocrisy. But, as you know, we Welshmen are a fanciful race. The Metho- dist fathers acted shrewdly in insisting on the danger of self-deceit. Ii Am I right in drawing the inference that, in the main, you acquit the anti-tithers of professing that which they do not honestly relieve ? Allow me to explain, It is one thin for persons to believe that they are conscientious, but the concession of that merit does not necessarily involve the concession that the conscientiousness is in accordance with Christian principles. Where a man talks about his conscience he Hies to the horns of the altar, and one h,-t-A to be very cautious in dragging hiiii fi-oiii there. However, I have always failed to see bow the plea for conscience can co-ex iilt. with higgling for percentages, and I am glad to find that the (hnedl thfinraey says this week that it agrees with me." o, I low stands the North Wales Liberal Federation in the matter ? So far as I am able to judge, it also talies the same view. About a year ago, you may remember, a series of mysterious reolutions were adopted by the federation. It is not eas\' for an outsider to interpret those resolu- tions so as to bring them into harmony, but I do not think 1 shall be far wrong if I say that the North Wales Federation absolutely declined to take over the work of the Anti-tithe League, and declined on the ground that it could not officially countenance a demand for a aa a protest against the appropriation Ul 1 ilhe. The members, in effect, declared that they were only prepared to go in for the refusal to pay any tithe at all." Ilr. (iee, I presume, parted from them there P" "Yes. Ihe editor of the Bauer, v. shrewd man, who knows the Welsh farmers, well thought that the policy of the Anti-tithe League was more practicable and better suited to the tone of feeling pievalent among the tithe-pavers." u Here the conscientious objection again obtrudes itself, for when judging of therelative merits of the scheiiie. suggested by the fede- I ration and that put into practice by the league, the question naturally arises, Can a conscientious objection to the payment of tithe logically stop short at 15 per cent, ? How would you put conscience to the test ?" There are certain tests which can be applied. As a rule, the conscientious man is singular in one respect. There is a certain amount of revolt on his part against the dictates of conscience: that is the meaning of self-sacritiee. I see no traces of this in the proceedings of the Anti-tith" League and ib 'lowers. Both aLiDear to have gone to work with a will, and they do not seem to iue tinmen with a painful necessity imposed upon them. Mr. (Jlee, for example, has pub- lished in the Baner the notorious sixty-six articles. 'Nyth yr lsryr. You consider that one trustworthy test ?" Yes, and 1 will furnish another. The truly conscientious man is sober-minded and grave in obeying the dictates of his conscience. Observe the Quakers in their protest against tho Churoh rate. They not only offered no resistance themselves, but strongly discoun- tenanced the violence of indiscreet supporters. hope I am mistaken, but, personally, I have not ht-ard of a hingle instance of a Quaker- like demeanour being shown by a person dis- trained upon for tithe. On the contrary, as you know, the most disgraoeful scenes are the rule. For instance, this year the saorament of the Holy Communion was mooked by p.iratlin oil being given to the effigy of a clergyman, with the words De'woh, rho'woh gymmun iddo cyn ei lo»gi.' This sort of con- duct naturally casts serious doubts on the purity of the consciences of those oapable of it. ■Why do you dwell so much on oon- science ?" For this reason. Consoienoe is the most saored and important faculty in matters of morality, and I object strongly to the free use of the term 'conscience' for political purposes. To say that the man is conscien- tious who mocks the sacrament in the way I have described seems to me to introduce a confusion altogether into the theory of con- silience. That is what I mean when I say that this agitation has confused the con- sciences of the farmers." "Passiu from the region of ethios to that of common-plane faots, is it true that the clergy as a class have allowed reductions in the tithe r" 1 cannot speak from personal knowledge ,)f what has been done in the past in this diocese, but, as the result of inquiries made, I believe that the olergy were prepared to liberally meet cases of distress at all times. In the majority of instances abatements have been allowed. But the singular thing is that abatements have generally provoked rather than cneokeu agitation, I nose oiergymen who have not allowed any reduction fre- quently art) those subjected to the least trouble." jó 1 understand that there are members of the Church clIUong the anti-tithers. How do you account for that ?" It is a fact which seems to illustrate the statement I have made, that the backbone of the movement is the commercial consi- deration. Farmers who are Churohmen have as shrewd an eye to business as the Noncon- formist." Have you ever been brought face to face with those farmers F" 11 Ob, yes. I accompanied his lordship the bishop to an interview arranged between him and twenty-six defaulters in one of the worst parishes of the diocese. The bishop asked them why they did not pay. Was it because of feeling against the Churoh or the clergy ? Twenty-four of them at once said, No.' The remaining two, who acted as leadoi-s-sinall t'reehoklers, by the way—declared that they had a conscientious objection. Those twenty- six farmers stated that they had declined to pay because they wanted a reduction. The amount was not specified, but one of the party, upon being asked, naively replied 'As much as I can get, sir.' One of the free- holders observed that the opinions of those present were valueless, because they were Churchmen." Was that true?" Far from it. The bishop asked each farmer individually whether he was a Church- man or a Nonconformist also his political colour. The reply of the first farmer to whom the latter question was put was humorous and, I think, instructive. He thoughtfully scratched his head and remarked in Welsh, it requires consideration. I laughingly informed the party that they seemed to think they were at a fair, a remark which greatly amused them. They were all in perfect good humour, and at the close passed a vote of thanks to the bishop and to me. A 10 per oent. reduction was allowed, and each man paid his tithe." What do you think of the Welsh farmers P" I have a very high opinion of them. As a olass they are more thrifty, and, probably, work harder, than any other in the country. The party we interviewed were neither better nor ivorse than the average. They were typical Welsh farmers." And your last word j8-" The agitation is a mixed affair with some conscience, some selfishness, much passion, and a great deal of what old people call hunan-dwyll' (self-deception)." MR. THOMAS (SEE INTERVIEWED. At Thursday's final splatter I met Mr. Howell Gee,the son of the editor of the Baner, and found him an agreeable companion, able and willing to lessen the difficulties which beset a stranger in a distriot where, in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, a new face is taken to belong to an Emergenoy man. I told him that the Western Mail threw its columns open to every side of a controversy, and that nothing would give me greater pleasure than a ohat with the inspirer of the anti-tithe movement. This conversation prepared the way for what followed. Early on Friday morning I called upon Mr. Thomas Gee at his house, near the I;an-r ollice, was promptly ushered into Mr. Gee's room for literary work, and received with every mark of kindness by the owner. 11 am told that the editor of the Baner is 76 years of age. It is difficult to believe it. A conjecture baaed on his appearance would place his age somewhere below 60. He is probably one of the best examples in Wales of the preservative powers of life-long abstinence from intoxicants and tobacco. If his face were just a trifle less square he would be almost an exact counterpart of Sir Horatio Lloyd, who, as one of the Hoyal Commissioners on Sunday Closing, is known to most people in South Wales. His hair is white, and so are the whiskers, cut in mutton chop fashion. A countenance habitually grave readily brightens. The general appearance suggests a combination of the Methodist minister and the prosperous farmer. He pleasantly received my assurance that the fact that he and the Western Mail stood on different sides of the political hedge would not debar him from having his views fairly and honestly represen- ted. In ordinary circumstances, he explained, he should have readily submitted to the pro- cess of interviewing. But he waa prepar- ing a rpply to Dean Owen's indict- ment of the Anti-tithe League, and, naturally, he wished to avoid prejudicing that reply by ezjmrte statements. In order that no injustice should be done to the letter of the dean," Mr. Gee continued, I wrote aaking if he would furnish us with his own transla- tion of it into Welsh. Dean Owen consented, and we published the letter in the best position of this week's Baner. He charges us with being illogical and our methods immoral, but I believe an answer can be given showing that the anti-tithe movement is both logical and moral." I readily recognised the disadvantages involved in a premature and necessarily scrappy comment on Dean > lweii's letter. The suggestion that in the interview matters dealt with in that manifesto might be ex- cluded was upon my lips when a question relating to the narrow scope of the anti-tithe war sent us almost unconsciously drifting into the direction about to be suggested. [ Mr. Gee readily admitted that during the last three weeks the conflict had been confined to the three parishes of Llarfairtal- haiarn, Llannefydd, and Uansanan. I observed that the faot, ooupled with the other, that the farmers were paying the tithe to Mr. Stevens in these parishes, was regarded as evidence of the failure of the And-tithe League. Mr. Gee warmly denied that this was so. H We olaim a virtual victory," he said. Previously to the last three weeks these distraints were levied in several other parishes, but the tithe agent cannot be in more than one distriot at a time. T believe," he went on, "that the Ecclesiastical Commis- sioners were wrong in distraining in these three parishes. At Llannefydd, 'or instance, the people bad been cruelly battered by the police, and the reoolleotion of the violence of the latter was productive of areat. bitterness. It is not going too far to say that some of the police-officers in this distriot are the best-hated men in Denbigh- shire. Having regard to this, the resumption of distraints was calculated to promote dis- order." These remarks naturally led up to ,the subjeot of the introduction of the Hussars. r. Gee spoke strongly on this point. There was not the slightest justification for calling in the military. The ordinary machinery of the law was suffioient to cope with the emergency. On the oocasion when the alleged riotous conduot of the people prompted Superintendent Vaughan to declare that the soldiers would have to be got not a blow was struok, and, according to the evidence given daring the trial on Wednesday, no violence was threatened except by the youth who is said to have flourished a oudgel in the face of the officer. My son was there at the time. A good deal of chaffing and the blowing of horns, doubtless, went on-nothing more." Mr. Gee further stated that Major Lead- better's application for the necessary authority to ask for soldiers had not been granted by the joint committee at the ordinary meet- ing. When he heard of the approaching arrival of the Hussars, he, as chairman of the Denbigh County Council, asked Major Leadbetter by whose sanotion he had asked for the soldiers. The ohief-constable replied that certain magistrates—not mem- bers of the joint committee-had authorised him. Mr. Gee wrote to Major Lead- better on the 19th inst. on the 21st Superintendent Vaughan applied for summonses against nine persons alleged to have used threatening language ten days' previously. The inference drawn by the anti-tithe party from these faots is obvious to the dullest understanding. Mr. Gee contends that the oiroumstanoes did not warrant the introduction of the soldiers; that the military could only be properly applied for when the police had failed to oope with violenoe. It is pretty certain that the matter will provide some lively proceedings at the next meeting of the county council.

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