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-PORTHCAWL'S GAS I

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PORTHCAWL'S GAS I STORMY MEETING AT URBAN DISTRICT I COUNCIL. ACCOUNTS PASSED. I Several stormy scenes characterised the special meeting of the Porthcawl Urban Dis- trict Council, held on Friday under the chairmanship of Mr. R. E. Jones, to consider the accounts for expense incurred in the gas arbitration proceedings, a sum of £ 600, which included a fee of £ 200 for expert advice given by Mr. C. J. Spencer, of Halifax. The deputy clerk (Mr. G. H. Brown) said Mr. Spencer's account was for raising.a loan of £ 40,000. In view of Mr. Spencer arrang- ing a permanent loan the total cost would be £ 1 5s. per cent., and credit would be given at the rate of 10s. per cent., resulting in a net charge of 15s. per cent. for the permanent loan, should he be able to arrange it. Mr. D. Davies: Were any arrangements made with regard to the expense to be in- curred by Mr. Spencer's visit previous to the rendering of this account ? The Clerk (Mr. Evan Davies): No, no ar- rangements were made. Nothing was agreed to beforehand as to what his conditions would be. Our anxiety was to get the loan. The Chairman: You must be well aware, gentlemen, that Mr. Spencer has been doing this kind of work for local authorities all over the country. Mr. D. Davies: Does the legal clerk think that the charges were made in the usual way, and are the charges reasonable? The Clerk: I consider they a,re reasonable charges, certainly. In normal times I think we should have been able to fix our own price to a certain extent, and had there been no war I think we could have dispensed with Mr. Spencer's services altogether as far as the obtaining of the loan is concerned, be- cause we could have got it in 100 places. Mr. D. J. Rees: But these are not normal times. I really don't think we should be called upon to pay such a large sum as t200 when the Local Government Board has specially requested us to economise in every possible direction. I think we might very well ask Mr. Spencer if he can see his way clear to make a reduction. We might then favourably consider his claims when we come to apply for a permanent loan. In addition to this I un- derstand that the duties will amount to an- other t50. Mr. T. G. Jones moved that the account in question be paid. Mr. Spencer had rendered v jilu&hle service to the Council, and he thought they had a great deal to be thankful to him for. Other towns were paying more than this, and he thought the amount quite a reasonable one. Rev. D. J. Arthur seconded. Mr. T. James: But I want to know when this was authorised, and by whom. There has been no resolution passed at the Council meet- ing with regard to the engagement of Mr. Spencer, for if there had been I should have heard of it. I was told by the auditor that we had no right to do what we have done in regard to the loan by the Bank. Some of the gentlemen here heard the auditor say so. I then said just what I say now-that a lot of this has been done behind the backs of the members of the Council, and I have no know- ledge of it having been brought before the Council in the usual way. I don't mean to say that the committee have done anything wrong, but I simply ask that the information I have already applied for may be provided. I had no idea that Mr. Spencer's duties were other than those of an adviser to the Council. I am not opposed to the expenditure of the money, but I want to be clear on the matter. The Clerk: The question raised by the auditor was merely a technical one as to a loan account being opened at the Bank in- stead of a suspensory account. The matter has been before the Council from time to time, and the old Gas Committee was given, plen- ary powers. Mr. James: Then if the committee was given plenary powers there is no need for a resolution by the Council. Mr. T. G. Jones: Mr. Chairman, it is really despicable that this sort of thing should be said after all that has been written and said in regard to this bill. I think it is down- right disgusting, and I can't understand any man talking like this unless there is some- thing wrong with him. The minute book was produced, and Mr. Jones read several resolutions passed by the Council from time to time in regard to the matter. The Chairman: There were plenary powers given the committee to secure the best terms obtainable. Mr. T. G. Jones: The Public Works Loan Board, from which we usually get our money, would not grant us a loan for this purpose. Mr. D. J. Rees: I shall move an amend- ment. We have had it from the legal clerk that in normal times we should not have to pay such a big bill as this, and surely, seeing the serious times through which we axe pars- ing, we should be very careful before we vote away such a large sum of money. We a.re keen enough when it domes to dealing with some of our own employees, and only the other day we knocked a shilling off some of the workmen's wages for overtime. I don't think we should be quite so ready to vote awav a large sum of money like this without oritrcism, and I think we should appeal to Mr. Spencer to see if he can't reduce the am- out a bit. He knows that municipal bodies are going through very trying times, and I am afraid we have not yet seen the worst. Mr. D. Davies (seconding): I don't dispute in any way the engaging of Mr. Spencer, but I was not in the know of everything that was going on, because I was not on the committee. You can understand now why I asked where the money was coming from. The matter wfw left to the Parliamentary Committee. and t'hpl wlien anvnne asks for infor-matirm Mr, T. G. Jones eives that cutting reply. The Chairman: Don't you think, gentleman, now the thing has been explained to you, that I 10s. per cent, is not an abnormal, but a low figure ? j Mr. D. Davies: But is there anything un- reasonable in asking Mr. Spencer to make a reduction The Clerk No, there is nothing unreason- able in it. I should say always get anything off that you can. Mr. J. Grace: I don't think this has been worthy of any discussion. These gentlemen know that Mr. Spencer visited the town twice in the interests of the ratepayers, and did not charge anything for those visits. That was worth zC40 or R50. I cannot help wonder- ing, when I hear all these tales about the terrible times through which we are passing, whether it comes from the head or whether it comes from the gas works. I feel the hard times, but I also feel that the Council should pay what it has to pay. We acted in accord- ance with the advice, good advice, given us by Mr. Spencer, who did very valuable work. As to this talk about some things being done behind the backs of the members I know noth- ing about it. If it is behind it will no doubt come to the front. I have heard this sort of thing so many times round this table before; there are some people who want to cut down everything. You engaged the services of a first-class man, but apparently you don't want to pay a first-class fee. You seem to want the services of one of the best financial men in the country without paying for them. If you want cheap men you should advertise for them. It appears to me there is a little bad feeling because all the members were not in the know as to what was being done by the committee. That seems to be a sore point, but it need not be, for everyone could not be on it. I can tell you I am verysorry I was on it. (Laughter.) I would very much rather some of these other gentlemen here had been on it, and then they would have known something about what has been going on. We were not opposed outside, but inside. Do let us bury the hatchet, and pay up like men, and let the town look well in the eyes of the world, I have heard people in the train laughing about what took place at last Monday's meeting, and I don't like the Council to be a laughing-stock. If my friendte are not satisfied I appeal to them to give way to us. (Mr. Davies: "Oh!") These gentle- men have gained all they wanted. A full re- port of this meeting is being taken, and it will appear in the Press that they are the champions of economy. They will get all the credit for it; and if it will satisfy them it will satisfy me. I would ask them to oblige me- (laughter)—by paying this money, and being loyal to the town. Mr. D. J. Rees: I have no feeling in the matter, because I was not a member of the Council at the time, and therefore it was im- possible for me to be on the committee. Mr. T. G. Jones: How many more times is Mr. Rees going to speak? Mr. D. J. Rees (continuing): As I say, I have no feeling in the matter, but I cannot see what harm there can be in appealing to Mr. Spencer to make us a little reduction. I am sure Mr. Grace and Mr. T. G. Jones would be pleased to see some reduction made. Mr. Grace (decisively): No, I should not. Mr. T. G. Jones: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. How many more times is Mr. Rees going to speak? He has been speaking nea.rly ail the time, and he is only saying the same thing over and over again. We are just like a. lot of children. Mr. D. J. Rees: Mr. Chairman—' Mr. T. G. Jones: Mr. Chairman—' The Chairman: Order, order! Mr. T. G. Jones: You don't—' Mr. D. J. Rees: How many chairmen are there? Mr. T. G. Jones: Well, you're only going over the same old ground again. Mr. D. J. Rees: I am doing nothing of the sort, I am answering Mr. Grace. The Chairman: We will allow it this time. Mr. T. G. Jones: Well do keep it short. Mr. D. J. Rees: I am only answering Mr. Grace. Mr. J. Grace: And of course I shall have to answer you. (Laughter.) Mr. D. J. Rees: Well I don't mind. You (to Mr. T. G. Jones) seem to be chairman, clerk and everything to-night. Mr. T. G. Jones: Well you went and told your friends at Bridgend all about it. Mr. D. J. Rees: But we don't know what you do when you get to Cardiff. Mr. T. G. Jones: We advocate margarine; that's what we do at Cardiff. The Chairman: Order! Mr. D. J. Rees: Never mind; I try to save the ratepayers' money if I can. At any rate, I have got the courage of my convictions. Rev. D. J. Arthur: Do I understand the Clerk to say there is nothing unreasonable in the request for a reduction ? Mr. D. Davies: Surely there is no harm in asking for a reduction. Mr. D. J. Rees: You have spoken once, Mr. Davies. (Laughter.) Mr. T. G. Jones: And there is nothing un- reasonable in the charges, either. The Clerk: No;, there is nothing unreason- able* in the charges, having regard to the ab- normal circumstances. It is all very well to shout about the charges now, but how many would have objected to pay Mr. Spencer £ 300 or t400 for obtaining this loan last March, when that award was made? Mr. Spencer has spent a lot' of time here. Abnormal cir- cumstances have cropped up, and the money could not be obtained anywhere. There is not another bank that would have let us have the money at this price in view of the circum- stances, but because arrangements had been made with Mr. Spencer the bank officials stuck loyally to their promise. The ratepayers will see the members of the Council have done all they could to keep to the lowest possible figure. The Chairman: Yes, and when you take into account the great amount of Labour that has been put into the work I think it is very hard lines if Mr Spencer is to be asked to make any reduction. Some of the work he has done he has not charged for. I think it will look very bad on our part to ask him to make any reduction, because I think he has met us very reasonably in the matter. One gentleman has remarked! that we tried to dock some of our workmen of a shilling. I can only say I don't remember such an incident since I have been a member of the Council. Mr. T. G. Jones: I should not take any notice of that, Mr. Chairman. The vote was then taken, and resulted as follows:—For the amendment to ask Mr. Spencer for a reduction: Messrs. D. J. Rees, D. Davies and T. James, 3; against, Messrs. R. E. Jones, T. G. Jones, J. Grace and Rev. D. J. Arthur, 4. The resolution for the payment of the amount was carried, and the other items com- prising the bill were adopted practically with- out discussion

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