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CARNARVONSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL. CONSTITUTION OF THE EDU- CATION COMMITTEE. ANOTHER UNSUCCESSFUL AT- TEMPT TO ALTER IT. ROAD IMPROVEMENT SCHEMES. FUTURE OF MADRYN CASTLE. (From Out Reporter). A special meeting' cif the Carnarvonshire Comity Oouooil was held to-day week, at Carnarvon. The Chairman (Mr John Owen) presided: and there were present: Col. IJoyd Evans, Rev. \Y. Morgan, Messrs II. C. VinceUl. Issard Da vies. R. Jones Roberts, C. A. Jones, D. P. Williams, Win. George, Wm. Roberts (Aber), Dr. R. Parry (Carnarvon), Messrs J. T. Jones, J. R. llugucjs, J. Jones, Morris, D. T. Lra.kt,\ Maunco Janes, J. R. Pritehard, Dr. R-uberc Owen, Messrs H. Parry, Hughes Roberta, Hugh Owoen (Cefn), C. K Breese, Hugh Pritehard, R. B. flllis. Ralph Fisher, W. U. Roberts (Llanfairfeeharc), T. C. Lewis, Dr. J. R. Wiiiianii, Dr. WYllIl Griffith, Mesjrs W. H. libodes, Abel Williams, D. H. Davies, Charles Pozzi, Richard Davies, A. Ivor Pryce, T. W. Griffith, 0. R. Hug-hos, R. R. .Williams (LlanUjfiu), G. O. Hu^'hes and Daniel Jones, with theCierk (Mr J. '1. Roberts), the Surveyor (Mr Evans;, the Education Secretary (Mr Evan R. DtvLEt,), and the Treasurer (Mr M. II. Williams). CROWN LANDS AND COMMONS COMMITTEE. MR W. GEORGE submitted the report of ■fliis committee, which reported that as a result of a conference of the Welsh County Councils at Shrewsbury a deputation had been appointed to wait upon the Welsh b:t tihey had not met on account of the dissolution of Par- liament. It having been reported to the committee that Crown Land in tne county had been re- cently sold by private treaty, it was decided to reoornmend il.xvl. Oflioe of Woods not to sell any land in future without lirat affording the County Council the opportunity of submitting their views on the proposed sale or of be- coming the purchasers. Cop;es of Sir John Jervii' report an the Crown Land, of Moriioiietbsrire published in. 184t) were submitted, and in view of the im- portance of the report the Council decided that a copy of it should b3 procured for each mem- ber of the committee. With regard to the Dinas Dinlle award a letter was receoivcd from the Board of Agricul- ture intimating that they much regretted to find that they had no power to institute an inquiry into the matter. MR WM. GEORGE said be had plenty of evidence ttiat the subject of Cnown Lands was exciting a good deal of public interest in all the "W elsh counties. The report in refcrence to Merionethshire oast a lurid light, he said, on landowners of the past. ROAD IMPROVEMENTS. IMPORTANT SCHEMES DECIDED UPOA. The Clerk reported that acting on the resolu- tion passed at the special meeting of the Sur- .Veyors' Committee, a communication was act-. Stressed to the Road Board urging them to gttve nearly consideration to the schemes for Carnar- nShire. A letter wa3 received from the Read Board! intimatin,g that the amount which the Board would probably be aible to grant from the funds at their disposal at the present time in respect of all wioi'ks within the administra- tive county of Carnarvon would bo £ 3000, and inviting the countty surveyor or any representa- tive of the Council to a conference with tine Chairman of the Board. The County Surveyor and the Clerk attended the conference, when the several schemes sub- mitt-ed by the Council and other road a.nthori- tiei in the county were discussed at considerable length. The following schemes were sanctioned by the chairman of the Board for free grants of three-fourths of the estimated cost:— COUNTY COUNCIL SCHEMES. Ta/nvrallt, Pwllheli £ 1650 Drwsyooed £ 894 Parrtglas, near Pwllheli £ 54 "\>at, Ll-anberis £ 1(1 Aria.nws (Conway Valley) £119 Penllyn, Owmvglo £ 51 Total JB2945 Schemes for Oonway Town Council L155 Schemes for Betitwsycoed Urban District Council £ 249 The total amount was £ 3349 The CHAIRMAN explained that the Board (Would be prepared to make an immediate grant of k2500 towards the cost of carrying out tile above improvements, the money to bCl paid in such a, and at such times as the Councils should decide, except tiThat the eum of = £ 200 would be retained until the County Surveyor certified that the whole of the work had been completed. The free grant would only be made if the Councils concerned agreed to provide the remaining fourth of the money. As to the sum of .£500 (balance of the sum of X3000 mentioned in the Board's letter], this was retained by the Board for the purpose of making free grants towards road improvements already submit- ted, or to be hereafter submitted by road authorities in tlio county other than the County Council, and of which the Road Board approved, and failing such schemes, the money would be applied to the carrying out of road improvement schemes to be submit.ted by the County Council. Mft J. R. HUGHES said they should be proud of a Budget which had enabled tliean to get the grant. lli J. T. JONES asked what the Council intended doing:), bou t the rejected schemes? The CLERK said that Cricci.eth had really submitted no scheme. They wanted .£250, and not X50. CAUTION SIGNALS NEAR SCHOOLS. The Surveyor's Committee reported having considered the application of the LI any stum- dwv Parish Council, and the headmaster of the Na.nt Peris Council School for the fixing of caution 6ignals near the Llanystumdwy and Nant Pe-ris Schools. It was decided to recommend that the cost of these signals be included in next year's estimate, and that the most dangerous places be first deaJt with. MR H. C. VINCENT pointed out that no aution board had yet been put up at the four cross roads between Menai Bridge and Portdmorwic. It was a most dangerous spot, and he saw two children within an ace of being*killed there recently. MR J. T. JONES (chairman of the Sur- veyor's Committee): But the Finance Com- mitt.e.e will not give us the money. The SURVEYOR said there were 2-1 urgent similar applications, and he was sorry to say that the estimates for the year had already been exceeded. MR VINCENT: If the committee won't do it, I will pay for it myself. It is a disgrace- f,ul state of things. EXTRAORDINARY TRAFFIC CLAIM. The CLERK reported that the solicitors for the Aluminium Corporation, Ltd. (in liquida- tion), and for the now company, had offered raha- of the value of .£¡J(}(I in the recon- structed company in settlement of the County Council's claims against the Cor- poration, Ltd. (in liquidation). The Clerk was authorised to accept such terms as he might consider sati-sfactory to the Council. INVESTITURE OF THE PRINCE OF WALES. ALDERMAN ROBERT ROBERTS called attention at the Surveyor's Committee to the forthcoming investiture of the Prince of Wales, at t, Carnarvon, with a view to the carrying out of all such road improvements in the county as could be undertaken by the Council, and pointed out that it was known that garage accommodation for some thou- sands of motor cars was already being sought in the county. He also suggested that inas- much as several of the schemes submitted by the Road Board, by the Council, and the other road authorities iin the county, came under Head 1. of the official .statement issued by the Road Board, namely, the easing of dan- gerous curves and corners, and that this was a class of work for which the Road Beard recommended that preference should be given in the making of grants of money, the Road Board should be asked to give c.a.rly con-, sidexation to the schemes from Cajukarvon- ahire. It was deeded to sand a letter on the a-bove linos to the Road Board, and the Surveyor was iz-Lruct,ed to ptepare a schedule of other road improvements. > WATERLOO BRIDGE, BETTWSYCOED. The following re olution was tubmitted by the Denbighshire County Council:— "Tliat the County Council co-operate with th? Carnarvon- shire County Council in preparing a scheme for strengthening the above bridge with a view of nl; submitting it to the Road Board as one that should be carried by the Board." The matter was refer,roo to the committee re Development Fund and Housing and Town Planning Aot. FUTURE OF MADRYN CASTLT. A NEW PHASE OF THE QUESTION. Mr Jones Morris, who presented the report of the Small Holdings Committee, mentioned that during the few days a most important letter had been received whicli placed a. new phase on the future of Madryn Castle. The let- ter was only received that morning, and it was from Mr John Owen,assistant small holdwgs com- missioner, who wrote:- "I called to-day to see Mr Kershaw at the Local Government Board with reference to the proposed tran-fer of Madryn Castle to the Edu- cation Committee, as our solicitor had some doubts as to the method by which this could be carried out. Mr Kershaw informed me that as the property has already been purchased by the Small Holdings Committee, they cannot sell to another committee of th" same Council, and that the best way to arrange the matter will be for the Education Committee to appropriate their required property and pay a fixed annual sum for the use of it to the Small Holdings Commit tec If the Education Committee had been in a position to purchase the property they could have bor- rowed for a term of 6J years only on the land, and 50 years on the buildings, while the Small Holdings Committee could have borrowed in re- spect of the land for 80 years and in respect of the buildings for 50 years. This gives an advan- tage to the Education Committee in being able to pay for the use, of the property instead of paying interest and sinking fund for the usual term. Mr Kershaw tells us that under Section 1 Sub-section 2 and 3 of the Education Act, 1907, the Education Committee is enabled to do this, and the Local Government Boa-rd have several cases of the kind. This arrangement will also enable the Education Committee to borrow for ■alterations and additions to the buildings as though they had been the original purchasers, and the Local Government Board sanctions loans in such cases." Proceeding, the letter stated that it was pointed out to Mr Kershaw that the annual amount which the Small Holdings Committee would require for the use of the property to cover the apportioned cost would be C192 per annum. He thought that as the Education Committee were benefitting by the larger term upon which the Small Holdings Committee had borrowed, they should pay a little more than that. The Small Holdings Committee reported that the advisability of converting the Castle into an agricultural school or disposing of it to a private individual had been d seussed by them. The clerk reported upon the completion of the pur- chase of the estate, and explained that for the convenience of the vendors it had been arranged that the County Council should receive the rents due on September 29th and October 11th last, but not payable until the end of December, at the expense of the vendors, but without making the CouncI in any way responsible for the payment or getting in of the money, and that the land agent should attend at Madrvn for the purpose. MR JONES-MORRIS said that if the Edu- cation Committee acquired Madryn Castle far £ 5000, .it should be remembered that there would be a very great expense incurred in putting the Tmildings into a proper state.of repair, and adapting them for the purposes of a farm school. He did not know whether it would be very wise to publicly state the figures, but the Council could gather from the sum that, the Education Committee mentioned by way of grant from the Develop- ment Board—a sum not exceeding £10,000, that the amount would be considerable. MR J. R. HUGHES: Why hide these things? "CONSIDERABLE SUM REQUIRED." MR JONES-MORRIS stated that in discuss- ing matters of that kind it was desirable that full details should not be divulged. Still, it might be said that the sum required was con- siderable. The only question so far as that Council and the Small Holdings Coin mi (too in particular were concerned w.,u this-siippos- ing the Education Committe.e accepted a lease of the Casy-9 eftid the land at the suggested rent of £ 200, and that a. large amount was spent in adapting the Castle as a farm scliopl, what would be their position if the scheme was mot a. sucoe-S,- V/here would the Council ultimately land tliiom&elves? Of course, ho did not say the scheme would not be a. suc- cess—perhaps it wouM bc, but where would the Council stand if it turned out a failure? He feared they would then have to sell the Castile at a great sacrifice, whereas there was a, possibiUty of finding a purchaser now. At. the outset it was stated th,at the Castle was to be acquired for the purposes of small holdings, with the provision that everything not required for small holding purposes could be sold. He suggested that the important letter he had received should be submitted to the Small Holdings CVrranittee and the Education Committee for further considera- tion. So far as the County Council was 00ill- cerned, they should have a full say on the matter before anything was decided. MR D. P. WILLIAMS agreed that tlik, sit-u- ation had changed, and considerable care acid discretion must now be exercised before any decision should be arrived at. MR J. R. HUGHES asked the Chairman of the Small Holdings Committee whether the report of Mr Dymond. the expert .adviser to the Board of Agriculture, was available; a-'so, whether there was a possibility of losing a purchaser for the Castle? MR JONES-MORRIS replied that he could not provide Mr Dymond's report as it had not been received by the Small Holdings Commit- tee, but they knew the pith of it. As to the sccond question, it was more than he could say whether there was a possibility of losing an opportunity of disposing of the building. He knew a gentleman anxious to oceiirc, it. but the Education Committee bad boon given the first chance. MR ISSARD DAVIES pointed out that it would be impossible to get a good price for the Castle if certain members tried to make out that it was a. "white elephant" (hear, hear). Perhaps someone p-rel)ared to offer a good price would be frightened. b The SECRETARY to the Education Com- mittee informed the Council that Mr Dy- mond's report was in the possession of Dr. Wm. Williams, of Wrexham. MR IVOR PRYCE (Bamgor) thought the committee, should take into consideration the scheme of agricultural training in force in Montgomeryshire, where agricultural- educa- tion formed part of the ordinary scheme of work in about thirty elementary schools, the instruction being imparted by the ordinary scchool teachers, who had been trained for the purpose at Central Classes organised and directed by a Direttor of Agriculture appoint- ed for that and for otlIe-r purposes. That, he believed, was a better scheme than the on,3 contemplated by their Education Com- mittee, for it would impa.rt knowledge to working farmers, and they would remain working1 farmers. It was suggested that Madryn should 00 converted into a school to turn out teachers of agriculture. Surely they already had sufficient teachers in tho county (hear, hear). It would be a mistake, to start a fresh training school or college in a county already well provided with them. Ho be- lieved tlio Council should be provided with fuller information in connection with the project (cheers). MR J. R. PRITCHARD (Carnarvon) said the Education Committee, of which lie was a member, were asked to support the scheme to convert the castle into a farm sdbool without a single figure being plaoed before them (hear, hear). lie wante-dto know before voting whether it was to be a school for teachers, and what would be the cost of its upkeep. There was no dcubt it would involve a large sum of money, and was Carnarvonshire in such a state to take such a large amount of financial responsi- bilities oil their shoulders? (hear, 'hea.r). Let them have a clear statement, aind to Etate clear- ly whether it w<Juld involve a Id rate. If it was intended to .spend LIC,000 let it be stated MR RICHARD DAVIES asked if the scheme wont throilgh-and they had heard a rent of C200 mentioned, hot to say anytbilig of the cost of the ait orations, which would proba- bly mean JE400 a. year,—whether the JB400 would have to be borno by the panish in wkieh the castle was situated and the county— £ 200 each? DR. PARRY: It's unfair that those figure should be divulged now by members of the Education Committee. Mr J. R. Pritohard Iras said tliat the scheme should not be parsed without consideration. MR J. R. HUGHES: Quite right. too. DR. PARRY (t!)o Mr J. 11. IlugSiod): Yes, quite right; but I am surprised that you agreed wit.h it. It -iis intended to send the matter back I in order that it might be properly diseu^sed. MR J. R. IIUGilES: We have not had the sobeme. DR. PARRY: It will be presented to the Cü;mty CoUr.oil, and discussed by it. It's a mi-take to say we are keeping things from the puiblic. The SECRETARY to the Education Com- mittee, replying to the point raised by Mr ey- Richard Davies, explained that agricultural education witiuin the meaning' of the Act of • Parliament waj secondary education, and was a charge upon the whole area administered by the County Council, a.nd tikire would. be no charge upon any particular area or parish in the county. MR JONES MORRIS said it was a very serious matter, and the Eduoatioii Committee f:Óouid 'have time to consider it fully. MR T. W. GRIFFITH asked whether it was true that between! £12UO and £ 1300 had al- ready been expe-ndod in connectioa with the scheme from the tune of the purchase to the p:e:erjt moment in legal charges and in various ways? MR JONES MORRIS: The expenditure is dealt with in the report of the Fmuneo Com- mittee, of which you are chairman. MR T. W. GRIFFITH: I asked a simple question. I knew perfectly well the figures were there, but I wanted tiio Council to know about them. The CHAIRMAN: Do you say that J31300 has been expended on this soheme so far? The CLERK replied that that was so. Al- Ol-ost the wblole of the money would be re- funded. MR T. W. GRIFFITH observed that there were a great many "ifs 11 with regard to the return of the money. The CLERK: There is only one "if." MR T. W. GRIFFITH urged that mtore cau- tion should be exercised by me oonuiiittecs in charge of the scheme. The whole matter then referred back to the Small Holdings Com- niiittoe and the Education Committee. PENYCLIP PROTECTION WORKS. Embodied in the report of the Surveyors' Committee were a number of letters which had passed between the Oliioe of Woods and the Surveyor. Committee with regard to Penyciip (Lianfairfechan). From these letters it ap- liearc-d that the Surveyors' C-ommittac required six acres,cf land, but Sir Stafford Howard was not prepared to sell more land than was actu- ally necessary for the work of protecting the road. In a. subsequent letter from the De- partment, Sir Stafford Howard intimated that he had received the Crown Surveyor's report, and he was prepared to sell to the County Council and the Urban Councils of fechan and Penmaenrnawr, tiie land containing about 2 acres, 1 rood, 28 poles, for the ran ot £ 48. The P.enrnaenmawr Council wrote stating that. they had no complaint as to the price ( £ 48) for the whole 2a. lr. 28.p., and suggested that tbe amount should be apportioned in ac- cordance with the quantity of land in caedi dis- trict. The Llanfairfechan Council wrote to the effect that they were strongly of opinion that sooner cr later the land westward of that on offer to the county would be required, either for the protection or diversion of the main road at Penyciip, and had isfo expressed their views to Sir Stafford Howard whelu asking his price. The Clerk explained that 113 had intended calling at the Oflicc- of Woods to press the pro- posal of the Llanfairfechan Urban District Council for the purchase, of the land to the westward of the plot offered for sale for the purpose of further defensive works at Penyciip, or in order to divert the main road and carry it on a lower level, but that in consequence of the dissolution of Parliament the appointment whioh would have necessitated his attendance in Lon- don 'had been put ofi and he had' consequently been unable to carry out his original intention. It was decided that the land offered for £48 be purchased, the and costs, £ 6 123 6d to be apportioned and ciliarged against each of the two Urban Councils aoeording to the quantity situated in their respective districts. It was resolved that inasmuch as it was essential to acquire the, land lying westward to the plot pro- posed to be purchased in order to carry out further defensive works or to carry the road at a lower level, that the of Woods, etc. be urged to sell it. MR W. G. ROBERTS (Llanfairfechan) thought the Crown Lands Committee- should take the matter into consideration. Tho CLERK said he had tried to the piece of land in question and ho could assure the Council that the more taik there was about it, the less would 00 their dhanoe of getting it. The repotrt was adopted. EXPENSIVE HIGHER TANDARD SCHOOLS. MR T. W. GRIFFITH, the Chairman, pre- sented the report of the Finance Committee, which allfidcd, to the Higher Standard Schools to be built in Carnarvon and Llandudno. Ha said that the cost of both schools was higher than was originally estimated. The Carnarvon school, estimated to oct £ 5,000, would after all cost £ 8,145 and the one at, Llandudno, estimated to cost £ 8,500, would involve an expenditure of £ 10 593 MR VINCENT: Have we urived at the limit yet? (laughter). In regard to the Carnarvon school the com- mittee reported that the tender provisionally accepted by the oommittee. for the school building was £ 6.295, and there was heating apparatus £3-0{); furniture and equipment,, E650 and pur- chase of land £900; total £ 8,145. The details connected with the. Llandudzio scheme were:— Purchase of land and incidental expenses, £ 2000; contract for school buildings, £ 7658' heating, £ 250; equipment, £ 6o5,—total £ 10593. It was decided to apply to the Local Govern- ment Board to sanction the borrowing of the money. INQUESTS AT LLYSFAEN. The Finance Committee reported that they had received a letter from Mr Pentir Williams, coro- ner for North Carnarvonshire, 'statinr* that he was not prepared to accept the terms offered by the County Council, namely—"That Mr Pentir Williams ba instructed to hold all future inquests in tie: parish of Llysvaen without any increase in his present salary, -ind that his travelling ex- penses be paid." Theyrecommended that the above terms be adhered to, and that Mr Pentir Williams be informed that if he is unwilling to continue in office on the above terms, that the Council will have to take steps to appoint another person as ccroner in ills stead. Tho recommendation was accepted without comment. THE IMMOVABLE EDUCATION COMMITTEE. A STRONG RADICAL PROTEST. MR J. R. HUGHES, in accordance with no- tice of motion, moved "That the powers dele. gated to the Education Committee by the County Council be withdrawn, and that in future all minutes of the Education Committee be submitted to the County Council for confirmation." At the outset Mr J. R. Hughcs expressed the hope that he was in order. THE CHAIRMAN: Don't insinuate, please MR J. R. HUGHES said it was not his wish to find fault with tha Education Committee, but rather to point out that as at present constituted the great majority of the elected members of that Council were disfranchised, and p ipular represent tation was reduced to a farce. "I believe in practising what I preach," he said, "and trust those members who, like myself, believe in the cry of 'Abolish the Veto of the Lords' and 'Trust in the People' will prove they are sincere by voting for my* motion (cries of "Oh"). Apart from matters of finance, members who are not on the Education Committee are debarred from taking any part in the work apper- taining to the education of the county, and I fail to understand why this committee should not be placed on a par with other committees of the Council, e pccially so as it happens to be the onlv committee with whom the ratepayers cannot deal c,irectl,v." In case any member might not have troubled to analyse the Education Committee, he had done so. He did not wish to refer to anyone person- ally, but lie pointed out that the commiitoc was crmposcl of thirty members, only fiften of whom were councillors elected by the ratepayers—fifteen cut (A 5i electod by the pecp'e, and that meant that 38 of the councillors were disfranchised and had no voice in the educational affairs of the county. There were nine aldei,mtln-be did not wish to say anything about those gentlemen- (hear, hear)—for they had been elevated to the aldermanic bench in recognition of their great work ir. the county. Thev had been placed among the members of the Education Committee, but, however good they v.ere, they were not directly responsible to anyone. Tho only thing an alderman had to do to be eke ted to that honoured position and keep his seat secure, was to pleads his fellow-members of the Council (cries of "Oh"). The ratepayers had nothing to do with that, so the aldermen w-ere not directly responsible to tho ratepayers or anybody e. Then, there wore six oo-opted me.mlwrs on tdio Edu- c.ation Committee. He took it that those gaa- tlomen were placed on the committee in order to give it some sort of eemblanoe of undisr- standing educational matters (la ugh tor and cries of "Oh"). These co-opted members wore even more fair removed. fxt«m th-e rate- payers thaji the aldermen. The question (naturally aroso whether it was fair and pro- per the majoir part of the county should be in the position of not having -a word to say with regard to the educatiocial work of the county. Once the loans were passed by the Council they were committed to expendi- ture even if the plans and staffing of the schools might be all wrong. The Education Committee had attained such a state of auto- cracy that there were some members of the Council who worse not even -allowed to sit as managers of the schools in their own parti- cular districts. If popular management meant anything, it was high time the autho- rity given the comimitteie should be withdrawn (hoar, hoar). The Llanrug district with four schools had not a single member to represent it, but tlie Beddgedert and Port,madoc dis- tricts had representatives, whilst Bontnewydid had three representatives. What was the re- sult of that? More money was spent there tth/au in any other part of the county (laugh- ter). Bangor had one member and two "co- ops" to represent them, whilst Criccieth, a bit of a village, had two representatives on the committee. The district of Conway had. not a single representative, and there was only one trom the populous quarry district of iilanllyfini, whilst Peoimachno and Bcttwsy- coed had not a, single representative. There were ridiculous anomalies throughout the county, .a.nd he said it was high time they practised, what they preached (hiear, hear). The CHAIRMAN: Who seconds the mo- tion ? MR J. R. HUGHES I have not asked aaiv- one, nor have I been present- at the Liberal caucus. MR C. E. BREESE (Portmadoc), a wcql- knovvn Liberal, seconded. He urged. Liberals to be true to the principles upon which theiir party was founded, and ho said they would never do that until they insisted that tho peo- ple should speak through the mouths of their representatives (hear, hear). The present ana-ngconent was a scandal. They had it adr&itted by a Liberal member of the Coun- oil, and in the most open manner too, that the principles upon which representation of the people rostod was "subject to party exigen- oes." A more disgraceful admission he never heard. Was it democratic? lie was a direct representative of tho ratepayers, having been sent from one of the Portmadoc wards, and yet he had no voice whatever in -the control of the educational machine, and further, he was not permitted to be a manager on a single school within his own district! When a revolt occurred there recently, and when matters appertaining to it were being investi- gated, his colleague, Mr Davies, was theo-e, but they had to import another member of tho Education Committee from outsida the district (crdes of "Shame"). And all this was carried on i,n the name of democracy! He wished to bring the injustioei home to every member of th,e Council. Let them consider the democracy leather than the "exigences of the situation." He spoke strongly because he felt strongly, and moreover ho spoke with the full ooncurrenoo of those- who &ent him there, and who would no doubt send hum again, if the matter were made a test question. It was a general complaint thro ugh out the ooutty that the Edu- cation OommiUoe was using- its powers in an autocratic way. Whether a man was a Tory or a Hjiboral; whether he was for or against the existing Education Aot, was no reason why they should, debar him from expressing fair cnticivn of matters affecting- tlie educational adtaiinistration of the county (hear, hear). He did not second the motion because he had any feeling aaudnist any member of the Edu- cation Committee but '.becauss ho felt that so long as the principle adcpted and accepted by the large mass cf the people, and which was based upon the surest foundations of liberty, was supposed to animate the Education Com- mittee, it was a shame and a scandal that those who had been elected by the ratepayers should ta-ko a subsidiary position to al-dermell and co- opted members. AN ALDERMANIC DEFENCE. MR ROBERT ROBERTS (Llandudno) said he happened to bo an alderman, but oouid not help i'f.. It was not his choice; in fact, he de- clined in tho first instance, and then strong pro sure was brought to bear on him. The CHAIRMAN: By the ratepayers cf your own d:sirict. MR ROBERT ROBERTS said what lie de- sired to complain of was that members like Mr J. R. Hughes, instead of dealing with tho question involved in the motion, made all at- tack upon the aldermen. He knew pcrfeotJy well that if Wales had a voice in the settling' of that question, there would have been no aldermen, and she would have been in tho same po-itibn as Scotland, but they had to take things ns they were. He did not grudge Mr J. R. Hughes being a member of the Asylum Committee—(laughter)—and he did not object to ilirn remaining: on the committee. MR J. R. HUGHES (interposing): I tried to avoid personalities, and I hope other gentlemen will do the same. 1 shall have the right to replv. MR ROBERT ROBERTS: I don't know. MR J. R. HUGHES: You will know beforo I have done. MR ROBERT ROBERTS remarked that even å.f the present arrangement were do no away with the alternative suggested would not bo practicable. No doubt before long the two parties would do away with the duaf sys- tem. The removal of t.he School Board system was a serious loss to the OOUThty, but it was not their fault. MR WM. GEORGE, as the unfortunate per- son who had been, described by one as "auto- cratic" and by Mr Broeso as all "irnrort"- (laughter) said he believed in !g*ovcrnmenfc bv people. The County Council had alreadv &l cussed that question, and had come 11;.0 a de- cision upon it, a'nd he d;.d not think it was oemocratic to bring the same question in prac- tically same form up again for division It savoured too much óf the metliods of that au'gust assembly which had beon so prominently before the people cf late—wearing bhe peopi-O down by e.octions af.ter the Pea,ple had given theJ.f decision. lIe did not believe in upsetting suoh decisions. In September last Councillor (v E. Breese brought a similar motion before hh-6 Odurxy Cxyixncil, and li-o preferred to the present one, as it was more straightforward and businesslike, for it would have enabled everything to be discussed in tlie Education Committee, and there would be no need for another discussion in the County Council He wa3 rather surprised that Mr' J R Hughes should have brought forward such a motion It was not right to say education matters could nCo bo discussed at the County Council. The Education Committee was democratic in that it was appointed by the County Council wlrrh was appointed by the. people.7 He Sed the Council to let the committee alone to carry on it- v.ork as at present. They did not say that tie educational system in the county was perfect and they had under consideration the question of re arranging the education svstem of the county and whether to obtain expert advice in the mat ter. No doubt, it would come before the Coun- cil as a fre-,h scheme. But in the meantime there was no need to worry the committee with vexatious motions of that kind. MR R. E. JONES (Llanberis) described tha motion as a farce, and MR R. JONES ROBERTS said that Mr J R Hughes' grievanoe was with the. Aot and not with the committee. MR J. R. PRITCHARD (Carnarvon) com plained that Mr Hughes had utilised his motion to ridicule the aldermen. When he (Mr Pritch ard) vacated his seat to become an alderman, his seat was taken by Mr J. R. Hughes, who there fore owed something to the existence of the aldermanic bench (laughter). MR HUGH PRITCHARD (Pwllheli) said Mr Hughes had not convinced him that his scheme was practical, though he agreed with the demo- cratic principle which he wished to establish in the committee. Mr George had said that tho education scheme of the county was in the melt- ing pot, and therefore he moved an amendment to the effect that as the County Council would be called upon in the near future to discusa the pre sent system of education and the advisability of altering it tile matter be adjourned. MR W GEORGE: I cannot, accept that. MR PRITCHARD: Well, if you say what you mean, you might accept it. MR GEORGE: We can't have a sword lilrq, ing over our heads. MR PRITCHARD: Then what you say is a Ion mere pious opinion. MR J. R. HUGHES, in replying to the dU- cussion. contended that the county councillors could not freely discuss educational matters. Tiiey heard there were proepects in tho air with (he result that there existed in the county a feeling of uneaainftss and- THE CHAIRMAN oalled Mr Hughos to order, asking him io confine his remarks to the subject MR HUGHES: I am discussing tho matter. THE CHAIRMAN: No, you are not. MR J. R. HUGHES then sat down, apparel Without finishing has rcm £ .-u There voted for the motion 15, and against 2" the motion being therefore lost. MR J. R. HUGHES: How many members >f the Education Committee voted for it? A CHALLENGE. Addressing Mr J. R. Pritchard, Mr J. R. IIUGHES said: If you resign, Mr Pritehard, I will resign and let's have a fight. There's a challenge for you MR J. R. PRITCHARD: You lost the first time. Mr J. R. IIUGHES also challenged Dr. Parry, who also represents Carnarvon, to fight on <he question. UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF NORTH WALES REMARKABLE CRITICISM. The next item on the agenda was "the appoint- ment of six governors, University College of North Walos for 1911." A COLTNCILLOR: What's the good of appoint- ing them? There's nothing for them to do. MR JONES MORRIS; I propose we don't ap- point any. MR J. R. HUGHES: I second it. MR JONES MORRIS declared it was a waste of time and money to attend the meetings of the Court. There was nothing for the governors to say or do as the whole thing was manipulated by one man in Bangor, they said. It was too much of a good thing that North Wales councils should appoint delegates to say "Yes" and "Ditto" to one man in Bangor. MR JONES ROBERTS: And I am prepared to fight that one man in Bangor (hear, hear). MR J. 11. PRITCHARD said that there was a discussion on several matters at the Court hold recently at Chester. The Council ought to be represented on the Court. The name of Mr C. E. Breece was suggested as a governor but MR BREESE asked that it should be omitted as it was anything but an honour to be on the Court. The subjects down for discussion were not worth discussing and there was very bttle opportunity given of explaining one's views. MR J. R. HUGHES: You should get on this year because of the Royal visit. MR W. GEORGE suggested that the repre- sentatives of the Council should raise the ques- tion of the powers of the Governors. Last year there was some reluctance on the part, of coun- cillors to act as governors. It was unfortunate that the County Council should not have, he might say. a dominating voice in the government of the College. Whether the fault lay with the constitution of the College he could not say. The following were appointed governors:— Messrs R. Fisher, A. I. Pryce, J. Owen, J. R. Pritehard, Rev. Rhys Huws, and Mr R. B. Ellis.