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VERY INTERESTING READING

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VERY INTERESTING READING MORE DESTRUCTOR DEBATING. MR. PARRY SECONDS AND REPENTS. SOME PEPPERY PERSONALITIES. THE CHAIRMAN TO THE RESCUE. On Thursday night the refuse destructor again .came on the Newtown municipal carpet, and it is safe to say it has now entered the chrysalis stage. At 6-40 the ordinary business of the Newtown Urban Council was at an end, and then Councillor W H. Evans rose to move the rescission of the resolution adopting the gasworks site for the pro- posed refuse destructor. After two hours discussion a fortnight ago, he did not intend to enter upon the discussion again. But as there was no sign of a compromise or agreement being effected, he begged to move the resolution standing in his name. He felt perfectly justified in doing so, be- cause it was the recommendation of an expert authority and a disinterested party. Also since their last meeting the Newtown Ratepayers' Asso- ciation had met, and he understood supported him in this matter. He did not know how much in- fluence they exercised or how much weight they carried with their decision that was known best to the supporters of the scheme, but, at any rate, they were in favour of abandoning the site in question. In adopting that present course, he was not blocking any desire for sanitary reform, as some people imagined he was doing but he was determined to prevent the creation of a public nuisance in the centre of the town. Mr George I should like to know whether we are in order before we go any further. I ask this after our experience of a fortnight ago. The Clerk I believe it was said that there was no resolution passed adopting the site. On January 3rd, 1907, the report of the Sanitary Committee was presented, and amongst other matters included is the following The proposed site of t-hfe destructor plant to be on the river banks." The report was adopted on the motion of Councillor Richard Lloyd, seconded by Councillor Samuel Powell. MR. PARRY ON HIS FEET. Mr Parry I rise to second the proposition that the site be abandoned. Mr George I should like to have your ruling, sir. It is no use our discussing it if we are not in order. The Chairman I think it is the only resolution which is binding. Mr Parry Mr Chairman and gentlemen— The Chairman If you please, Mr Parry, you have seconded the resolution. Mr Parry But you stopped me in the middle, sir, and the discussion began. Mr George I asked a question, sir. The Chairman Alright then, Mr Parry. Mr Parry: Then I rise to second this resolution that the site be abandoned. The Chairman No, Mr Parry what has been moved is that the former resolution be rescinded. Mr Parry: Oli, very well, then I move that the former proposition be rescinded. Mr Ellison was sorry that the question had come to that particular issue. He did not know whether the gentlemen who had proposed and seconded that resolution were aware of the seriousness of the move. It was placing the Council in a very awk- ward position. If they accepted Mr Evans' resolu- tion, he was sure they would be doing a thing which the ratepayers would not agree to. Mr George thought the matter had been brought to a head by Mr England;s report. In face of that, he could not see how the Council could vote against the resolution. The Chairman Any other gentleman ? Mr Ford The question of an expert has been brought in many times. WHO IS AN EXPERT ? And what is an expert ? And where does the position come in with regard to this particular gentleman ? He is surveyor for Wrexham. He has the management of the destructor there, but that does not make a man an expert by any means. We enquired upon what terms a gentleman would come here and give us his opinion. We got three replies the first asked £50, the other asked £10, and another P-5. In a serious condition of things you don't enquire what a man will come for. Take a doctor, for instance- The Chairman Half a minute, please. Two gentlemen were debated there was a difference in their fees. They were unanimous in accepting Mr England, but not because he was the lowest. Mr Ford :So' far, so good. Well, now, if we were in a serious condition, and thought it ad- visable to consult an expert, no reasonable man would take the lowest he would take the best, and not the lowest— The Chairman That is what they did, sir. Mr Ford I beg your pardon for saying so. Mr Parry Is it fair, sir, is it fair that Mi* Ford should handle Mr England's name in this fashion ? The Ci-xairman Will you keep to the point, sir, and not bring in personal matters. Mr Ford I have not mentioned Mr England's name at all. If it goes in the papers we must take it as it is. It is not a question for an engineer The site of a destructor is for a medical officer rather to decide, and it is from that point of view that the matter is being fought Ol. MR. FORD HECKLED. Mr Evans Why, then, didn't we have a medical officer, and not all engineer to inspect the site ? Mr Ford: Don't ask me why. Mr Jarvis: Ask Mr Ford why he didn't propose that a medical man be appointed. Mr Powell It is not fair to interrupt. Mr Ford: Oh, dear, no! I rather like these interruptions they give me time to gather my thoughts, so you can take the hint (laughter). We have a medical officer, in whom I have perfect confidence. This gentleman has no right to give an opinion on— Mr Parry: Does the medical officer work des- tructors ? I should like to ask- The Chairman Order, order, Mr Parry! Mr Ford: Oh, I don't mind him, Mr Chairman, it gives me time to breathe. Mr Evans: We asked for an expert. Mr Cooke When gentlemen interrupt, I think they should at least stand up. Mr Ford: I am subject to the Chairman, and not to Mr Parry. Mr Parry I don't like you making these re- marks. Mr Ford I think there are other authorities- even around this table—whose opinion I would take first, and I should like these gentlemen who went round the destructors to give their experiences. Mr Evans: We have had that. Mr Ford We will have it again, I hope. Be- sides, this question was threshed out before we applied to the Local Government Board for the loan, and before they granted the loan they sent an in- spector down to enquire into the whole matter. What was his name ? The C'lerk; Mr Fawcett, sir. Mr Ford Yes, and he is a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers.. Mr Evans: The same as Mr England. MR. FORD INSINUATES. Mr Ford This gentleman examined the matter in his official capacity, and he has sanctioned the site. The only question raised—I think it was raised at the Ratepayers' Association—was the chimney. If the chimney had to be abandoned, I should have given up the whole bag of tricks, be- cause of tfte great expense it would have entailed: -Not only that, but they had an inquiry there, and amongst those present was Mr Jarvis and a gen- tleman near the proposed site, for whom Mr Jar- spoke, and I believe he called him a client- Mr Jarvis: I rise to a point of order, sir. I never mentioned the word client, not did I appear at the inquiry for anyone. << fr f ?,rc! "erhaps he did not use the word client, but a friend of his objected to it because be said it was so close to his residence. Mr Jarvis went so far as to talk about an injunction. I have heard opinions about injunctions from eminent bar- risters, but they cost a lot of money. Evidently the inspector, after visiting the site, saw no objec- V}on *o it, otherwise he would not have sanctioned it. 1 here was the question of cost, a question which tie knew Mr Evans felt very acutely, especially if Th r^°-ng to fal1 on him- Ford nnan Don't mention names, please, Mr °,h' MrT rather likes it.' I no- hnrrnv^ that C0S* £ 600> an<* WC Can borrov, that aud repay it 121 15 years Mr Evans: The life of a destructor. Mr l ord It w:ouId come to a id rate in the -p neither mere nor less. I am opposed to the resolu- r tion, and I shall vote against it with all my heart. If you gentlemen stop the erection of this des- tructor, what have ycu to propose as an alterna- tive ? There has been a great deai of talk in Par- liament about Free Trade and Tariff Reform. They TALK ABOUT TARIFF REFORM- Mr Parry: Oh! Mr Chairman. Mr fw;.mi!ai1' No Politics, please, Mr Ford, rupted N>P "T /K t}Jese gentlemen had not inter- ever, 1 w;'n ipi1 iUllave finished long ago. How- Mr Forster Tf ihe matter' alone. will fall out t ir rd talks politics, he and I (laughter). w what Tariff Reform means Mr Cooke T 1 1 (!a«f?hter). no«t infeiWino^ rnn/r discission will make £ K rea,dln&> especially for our outside fonriers th ™ t^at the truo sanitary re-. .a"d the., Peopie who watch the health of vrC "e ,the representatives of the outer dis- trict.-(Mr Ford; Hear, hear.) -Not iithstandijig \» .• 1 nKEar\0 llle Sanitary Committee and our Medical Officer have to say, you are prepared to iw"* .hat these gentlemen .have to tell you to nit/ht" u St Sf tdelay- If you Pass asia* 10-nignt, it is bound to come up with greater cost frnrtnr ea/hy You are hound to have a des- 2°' ^ere is no doubt about that. You will ite outsifU ^nH0"1" .qu?ta then to building on a will nn tf 1 instead of costing £ 500 or £ 600, you 'Do von «nnk VV;Vlef,4llan doub'-e that sum. fool as to recommend such a site as would be a danger to health ? We never had a medicaf officer who cared more for the health of th? people than he does. It is not honest on the nart nftho onno- sition. It is not because they a?e -n Jto consider the health of the district they don't care that much. (Here Mr Cooke suited action to words by a resonant snap of his thumb anil Mr Parry That's wrong. D and fin»er>- MrIrparry6 Y°U jUSt St°P UntiI 1 hav.e finished, Mr Parry: Tell the truth, then. MR. COOKE THREATENS. TMr Cooke: The time has come when we who reside in this town should have a stronger voice' in these deliberations. We must move in such a way tt\at we shall get*such a stronger voice and we must np longer allow these outside men to oppose the wish of the people. Mr Jarvis: I am tempted to make a few re- "marks about what has been said by Mr Cooke. I am not a member for the outer district, and I thro?*h any. inducement from any members of the outer district, neither is lit on ac- count of any whim that I intend supporting Mr Evans' resolution. Therefore, Mr Cooke's remarks cannot apply to me. He has said perhaps more than he intended to say when he said that those who were opposing the destructor were not acting honestly. That charge can be flung back with v truth upon those who are supporting the other side. Let me deal seriatim with those in favour of the scheme. Because I am a new member of this Council is no reason why I should sink my indi- viduality and accept the opinions of other men. i flatter myself that I have intelligence, and suffi- cient intelligence to decide for myself whether or not this is a proper scheme. The seriousness of the position is occasioned by the Sanitary Com- mittee itself. In a matter of this kind, involving a great change in policy, it was the Council s duty to have called in an expert at the beginning. Mr Ford What about the inspector ? Mr Jarvis He was called in not. to inspect the site, but to sanction the loan. Air -Ford: Well, he passed the site. Mr Jarvis I can show you that this has been over-estimated. You rely upon a committee and a surveyor who has had no practical experience in this class of work. Why did you spend five guineas in obtaining the opinion of Mr England if you did not intend to act on it ? You had every oppor- tunity of suggesting that it was not the duty of an engineer, and Mr Ford was in favour of Mr England being the expert. Mr Ford When ? Mr Jarvis When it was proposed, sir. It was done in the Council, when two names were sub- mitted. MR. FORD, AGAIN, on more than one occasion, has been wrong in his facts. He was wrong when he said that one man asked P-50, and £ 10, and another £ 5. Apart from that it was the opinion of the committee, and subsequently the opinion of the full Council, that what we wanted was not so much the view of a theoretical expert as of a practical man who had had to do with these destructor plants and knew their mechanical working. I think myself that we could not have chosen a better man, because it hap- pens that Wrexham itself has had this difficulty to contend with. Wrexham has a refuse destructor, and there have been complaints of the very nature which Mr England warns you about. Yet, in spite of his belief in destructors, and in spite of his strong re- commendation to use one, he emphatically condemns the site you have chosen. I was present at the inquiry, but I did not appear there on behalf of a client. The gentleman Mr Ford refers to I know very well, and he spoke very well, I believe, on that particular day. At the inquiry I believe 1 said nothing about the injunction, I simply stated my objection to the scheme. Mr Ford And he didn't notice them. Mr Jarvis I disagree with you entirely. Mr Ford He did not have them in his report, at any rate. Mr Jarvis It is not fair for you to say he did not notice them. I know everything that took place on that particular day so far as we as a Council can know it. He went from this room to the back of the gas works and did not stop in Severn-street to see what houses were overlooking the site. Mr Fawcett was not shown the windows of Mr Humph- reys' house, or the window of the gas manager, overlooking the site. He marched straight on to the site, and examined the site alone. Mr Ford No, you are assuming that. MR. JARVIS' TWO CHALLENGES. Mr Jarvis No, it is a fact. I walked with him, and I challenge anyone to say that it was not so. We are told that the outside members oppose this scheme because it is costing money of which they have to pay a share. You are supporting this scheme because it is an economical scheme. It is the pecu- niary point of view alone that is affecting your minds on this question, and I don't hesitate to say that if you could get a destructor and chimney out- side the town, clear of houses, there is not one man of you who would not say that where you now nropose to put it it would become a nuisance to the houses in the immediate neighbourhood. I challenge any contradiction of that (hear, hear). We have been told by Mr Cooke that we don't think of the health e of the town. I will say for myself that it is on account of the health of the people in this neigh- bourhood that I oppose this. If in erecting this destructor it caused a nuisance to only one house it ought 'to be abandoned. I strongly support Mr England's plea, and shall vote for the resolution being rescinded. We have been asked about the alternative. That is not the question. If we are threatened by a thousand writs I will never vote in favour of a scheme which would be to the detriment of half-a-dozen people in Newtown. The Chairman Any other gentleman ? Mr Powell I don't know whether it is worth while saying anything on this subject at all. The gentle- men in opposition DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING we say. The mover of the resolution says that he believes in the health of the district, and he puts great weight on it. As for Mr Parry, he is rather given to believe that the outside district should not be called' upon to pay. If you look back you will find that those gentlemen were relieved to the extent of sixpence in the £ for removing the refuse and sweeping the streets. Mr Evans: You say we are fighting it on the ground of expense, and you contradict it afterwards. Mr Parry: We are fighting it on the rwiisances. Mr Powell I will go into the nuisances. What do these gentlemen know about it ? Some of them have never seen a destructor. Mr George I lived in the same town as a de- structor. Mr Powell Did you ever see the destructor ? Or did you hear of any nuisance from the destructor ? When we visited Moss Side and saw the destructor there, they were building new houses right abutting it. and new streets were being laid right up to the wall. Mr Parry Yes, for the Council's workmen. Mr Powell The Council's workmen need health as well as any other workmen (hear, hear). Of course, it does not make very much difference to Mr Parry. he is not a very heavy ratepayer (interruption, and cries of Oh, oh ") Mr Ellison I rise to a point of order. Are you chairman, sir, or have we THREE OR FOUR CHAIRMEN. Mr Powell: These gentlemen don't believe a word we say. r Mr Parry Soeak the truth, then. Mr Powell We went to Levenshulme, and saw houses being built right against the destructor. Tie thought Mr England's reDort did not say so mnch about the site as the size of the destructor. Mr Parry No, no, not at all. Mr Powell Well, that i%.oce of his chief points. We know that the only effective way to deal with the refuse is to cremate it. We have had men from the three chief destructor firms in the country here, and they are all satisfied with it. and the first thing they all say is centralize your destructor, and so save your carriage. They say nothing about the nuisance. It is going to be a most serious thing for this Council and the ratepayers if these outside members, who don't pay a farthing for the scavenging of the streets, are going to come here and rule the roost, and so prevent the improvement of the sanitary arrangements. Either Mr Evans or Mr Jarvis said he was glad to hear that he (Mr Powell) had left out the word health." What is the good of installing a destructor if not for the health of the district ? If these gentlemen get their way, we shall have to go in for a destructor, ^nd it is not going to cost £ 600, but between £ 2,000 and £ 3,000, and if that happens, all I hope is that some of these gentlemen will have to pay something towards it (laughter). Mr -Barnes Said that when they were at Levens- hulme they were -building 75 villas as close as they could to the destructor. It was unlikely that work- men would want houses at P,16 and JE17 a year rent and now, they were erecting ten more houses. He had visited also a few destructors on his own account. In one town which he had visited in Lan- cashire, the destructor was within 15 yards of an hotel with accommodation for 50 or 60 travellers. The argument of the outside members was simply this; "You can have a destructor if you like, but don't touch me" (laughter). Mr J. H. Jones: A fortnight ago I was quite convinced in my mind that a destructor was not required, but to-night I shall vote against this resolution.. Mr Parry I am surprised at that. YOU ARE WOBBLING ABOUT, OLD MAN! Mr J. H. Jones I am quite certain, too, that the only place you can put this destructor in is the one suggested. Mr Ford Mr Chairman, let's have your own experience. n The Chairman We have not had all the mem- bers of the Council yet. Any other gentleman, Piease ? Mr Parry Mr Chairman and gentlemen, I tnink I am entitled to speak on the speech of--(stentorian Ili., o U1 .J.U, iivj j. The Chairman No, you are not, sir. Mr Parry I am sorry now that I seconded the resolution (laughter). The Chairman I have listened to all you have said, gentlemen, and I don't wish to criticise. But there was one thing I did not agree with—that members should say the outside representatives were not honest and serious in the matter. We should give each other credit for more. and not bring- accusations that they are doing this for other than honourable motives (hear, hear). Mr Powell lays a great deal of stress that the oppon- ents of the destructor have never seen one, and therefore they have no authority to speak. I quite disagree with Mr. Powell on that point. Take out Mr Barnes and Mr Cooke, and any gentlemen might come 20 times a day for 20 days into my place and see the machines working, and he would not be any wiser when he went out than when he came in.- (Mr Parry Hear, hear.)—When Mr England was Examining the site, he pointed across the river, cind asked What is manufactured there ?" and someone said, Welsh flannel." Mr England asked whether it was dried out of doors, and when told it was not, h# said that it was a very good thing, and it would be very unfortunate for such an operation when sO" near the destructor, on account of the fumes and dust. There is also more dust and fumes from a small destructor, because the combustion chambers are not so large. And, again, when visiting these places, they were apprised of our coming, and naturally had everything in order. At Levenshulme they h.ad a large open space to toj-e the clinkering, but they have no such open space here on Severn «banks. The apparatus was thoroughly up-to-date, and was working very satis- factorily and the same might be said abont the Moss Side destructor. But when we visited a smaller one, I think the other gentlemen would agree with me that it was not working so well, and if we- had one in Newtown we should not like to have ouM in the same state as we found that one. I agree that it is the only perfect method with the refuse of the town, and I was one of those who agreed that from an economical -point of view this is the place to pitch it, because we had the land, the chimney, and the boiler. I am told that the Local Government Board inspectors never give an opinion on any subject at head- quarters, but if a nuisance does arise later on, they will see that you remote it. As Mr Powell has said, put this destructor anywhere, and somebody will complain. MY SON AND HIS SIX LITTLE CHILDREN live juSt by the site, and I ask you, gentlemen, would any of you favour this site if you had a family living within a few yards of it ? Well, at the same time, if you decide to erect it there, after receiving this report from this gentleman, I shall vote for it but this Council will have to take the consequences. You are chucking the opinion of Mr England by so doing on one side, and it will be for you to take the consequences afterwards. Mr Forster claimed that a dust chamber, if fitted to the destructor, would cost £ 150 to £ 200, and would obviate any nuisance from fumes or dust. In approaching Mr England, they had acted upon the suggestion of the Ratepayers' Association. Mr England was, no doubt, a capable man, but as he had no experience in medical matters, he would prefer to take Dr Wilson's opinion against his. Mr Evans: I won't detain you for a moment, gentlemen. All kinds of sinister motives have been imputed to me and to the other rural members. I am surprised to belong to a Council which has members who can impute such sinister motives r'1 without a shadow of ground for it. You have also accused me of holding an opinion of our own. Have I no right to come here and hold any opinion of my own without being dictated to by Councillor Cooke in HIGH-FLOWING TONES ? (laughter). I have a right to an opinion of my own, and I have a right to state it. I formed that opinion before the Local Government Board inspector came here, and I stated it, and I shall continue to hold it. We all know that Mr Ford can offer a scathing criticism, but this time it has passed like water off a duck's back (laughter). There was a splendid speech by Councillor Powell, who accused me of not considering the public health. Why should we consider only the financial side and disregard entirely the sanitary state ? I am informed that the chimney at Wrexham is higher than the gas- works stack, and yet the Wrexham people found that they were bound to build another at a cost of 21-000. Perhaps that won't go down. Mr Powell I should like to know the authority. Mr Evans You have the authority of a man who knows, just as you people know. We now know all there is to be known, and have found that it is better not to. have it on the gasworks site, which is unsuitable from a sanitary point of view. If it has to be erected, let it be erected elsewhere. The Chairman then put Mr Evans' motion to the meeting, while the Clerk read out the names. For the motion—Messrs Jarvis, David Jones, George, Pryce, Bennett, Parry, and Evans. "Seven," said the Clerk. Now those against the motion," and the Clerk again invited the names- Messrs Cooke, Forster, Ford, Powell, Ellison, Barnes, J. H. Jones, and the Chairman. Therefore the gasworks site for the destructor still survives as a site, and further developments will be equally interesting.

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