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SECONDARY EDUCATION AT LAMPETER.

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SECONDARY EDUCATION AT LAMPETER. Proposed Establishment of a Girls' School. Government Inquiry. Opposition from Tregaron and Llandyssul. [SPECIAL AND EXCLUSIVE REPORT.] The proposal for the establishment of a secondary school for girls, which has been considered by the local public bodies for some time past, was the subject of an inquiry on Thursday last, Feb. 14th, at the Board Room, Union Workhouse, Lampeter. The school, if established, would, it was contended by the promoters, be not only qualified, but also Entitled t9 receive assistance from the Board of Education and the local authorities under the Technical Instruction Act. The inquiry was con- ducted by Mr Lefroy, chief inspector in the secondary branch of the Board of Education. Amonsgt those present were Principal Bebb, St. David's College: Professor Hugh Walker (mayor) Aid D. Tivy Jones, and Mr David Lloyd (clerk), representing the Lampeter Town Council: Rev Evan Evans and Mr T. Lloyd, vice-chairman and clerk respectively of the Lampeter School Board; Rev R. C. Jones, representing Lampeter Board of Guardians; Mr D. J. Williams, Mr M. Morgan, Mr Rees Jones, Mr Lewis (head master), and Mr Jenkin Llovd (clerk), representing the Tregaron Local Governing Body; Rev W. James, B.A., Mr W. Lewis (headmaster), and Mr T.Thomas (clerk), representing the Llandyssul Local Governing Body and Mr T. H. Powell, Llandilo, clerk to the Carmar- thenshire County Governing Body. Mr T. Thomas, Llandyssul, at the outset, informed the Inspector that none of the gentlemen appointed by the County Governing Body were present although it was decided they should be. The Inspector They have had notice. Mr Jenkin Lloyd said, as one of the members of "the County Governing Body who attended the meeting held the previons day at Aberystwytb, six representatives were appointed to attend the inquiry whenever it would be held. Mr Fryer (the clerk) promised to send notice to each of the six, but there was nothing before them to show that the inquiry would be held that day. The Inspector That is a serious thing very much to be regretted. Mr Jenkin Lloyd further stated that the question was on the agenda, and a resolution was passed to the effect that The County Governing Body do everything possible to oppose the establishment of the school." He only happened to bear of the inquiry himself after returning to Tregaron from Aberystwyth. # The Inspector said evidently the intention of the Board of Education was that the County Governing Body should be in communication with the Lampeter School Board. Mr Thomas, Llandyssul, said they received a communication from the County Governing Body stating an inquiry was to be held, but not giving the exact date. The only definite information which reached them was a telegram from Mr Lloyd Tregaron, received on Wednesday night, stating that the inquiry was to be held that day. I hat accounted for the attendance of only a few of them that-day.. Professor Hugh Walker said regarding the Llandyssul representatives, it did not seem con- templated that they should attend. l'hey were not on the list of those to be invited by the Boaid of Education, and it did not seem that their attend- ance was expected. The Inspector: That is quite true. They have not been formally invited. Do the representatives of Llandyssul also represent the County Governing Body in any sense.? Mr Thomas: One of them does. The Inspector: Then, how many of the County Governing Body have we here 1 It was stated that there were two members—Rev W. James and Mr Jenkin Lloyd-present. The Inspector said that that was something, and they must make the best of it. He thought they would all be very glad to have the representatives of Llandyssul, as such, present. The Tregaron governors were the obvious people to invite, but it was not thought to specially notify all the districts. But, as it had turned out, it was a good thing Llandyssul representatives were present. Professor Hugh Walker then read certain corres- pondence which had passed on the matter, and one letter which had been sent to Mr Fryer stated that the enquiry would be held either on the 13th or 14th February. Mr Fryer bad replied stating that no representatives of his Body could attend on the 13th, as a meeting was being held that day at Aberystwyth. Mr Fryer thus had one of two days to chose from. He positively debarred one, and the natural consequence seemed that be would have fallen to the other. The Inspector said he thought Mr Fryer had fair grounds for supposing it would be held that day, and their letter from the Board of Education did not give any promise that he would be further communicated with as to the date. The Inspector proceeded to suggest that he thought the most satisfactory and expeditious manner to get through the business was to hear first of all what the movers in the matter—the Lampeter School Board —had to say on the matter, and then they could hear the Town Council and St. David s College representatives. Then the interest which, on the face of it, looked most conflicting, viz., the Tregaron School Managers could be heard, and he hoped the County Governing Body, looking at things from an elevated standpoint, would come down and sum up and express aa impartial opinion. Any representatives from the neighbouring County of Carmarthenshire could also give their views as to joining in a plan fairly put before them. ) The Mayor of Lampeter (Prof Walker) then pro- ceeded to make a statement in support of the pro- posal on behalf of the Lampeter School Board. He said the School Board were the first movers im this matter, their motive being to secure the best education for their pupil teachers. And they had come to the conclusion that what was called the Festiniog scheme was the best for the purpose. That re- quired secondary education for two years, which stood instead of an equal period of apprenticeship under tthe system. Although there was pro- vision for secondary education in the town for boys there was no means for the secondary education of girls. The School Board found it to their interest that their pupils should be educated under this system, and unless a school of this kind was estab- lished they had not the means fof securing that. They had approached the Town Council, and asked the help and assistance of that body. There were a large number of girls who desired better educa- tion than at present afforded them at Lampeter, and many parents were not inclined to send them away to get that education. Although Lampeter waa now the bounty town of Cardiganshire, it had no county school, and the Lampeter Union (which was situate partly in Cardiganshire and partly in Carmarthenshire) was the only one in the two counties which had no school under the Inter- mediate Education Act within it. The town of Lampeter, although situated within Cardiganshire, reached within about 100 yards of the confines of Carmarthenshire. The Lampeter Union contained fifteen parishes, ten of which, of the rateable value of E18,325, were in Cardiganshire; and five in Car- marthenshire, of the rateable value of £ 11,686 the*total valuation being £ 30,021. The total popula- tion of the whole Union in 1891 was 9,684. The rateable value of Lampeter borough is £4.072 12s 6d, and the population in 1891 was 1569 There was practically no secondary school for girls within the Lampeter Union. There was a secondary school for boys at Lampeter, under the manage- ment of the St David's College Board and two representatives appointed by subscribers. Previous to the establishment of county schools this school had at one time as many as seventy-five pupils. The present number was fifty-one. The Inspector, interposing, said he thought he was right in saying that it was not the intention of the promoters of the proposed school to go back on the existing state of things. It might prejudice the position if it was supposed that they yeve going t>ehind the scheme in any way, or that they were going to condemn the Tregaron arrangement. Protessor Walker said they accepted the situation -as regards Tregaron, and there was not the slight- est hostility to it. The Inspector: And there is'no attempt to un- dermine the scheme. Professor Walker: Not the least. And what we intend to do we hope will not interefere with any other scheme. Proceeding, Professor Walker said for the purposes of the Intermediate, Education Act, the Cardiganshire part of the Lampeter Union was within the Tregaron School district. Tregaron was twelve miles from the town of Lampeter. The Abecayron County School was 13 miles from Lampeter, and the Llandyssul County School 14 miles. The latter school was a joint one for Cardi- ganshire and Carmarthenshire. On the east side ef the Carmarthen part of the Lampeter Union the county schools were Llandovery (for girls only), 20 miles distant; and Llandilo (for boys and girls), 24 miles distant. Application had been made to all the adjoining county schools for information as to the number of pupils from the Lampeter Union admitted to such schools, and what scholarships (if any) had been awarded to them. with the following resul:-Tregaron School—There were nine pupils from the Lampeter Union at this school, some oi whom held scholarships and others were in receipt of bursaries. Aberayron lhere were none from the Lampeter Union at this school at present LIandyssuI-There were 15 (9 boys and 6 girls) from the Lampeter Union at this school, and they held scholarships and bursaries of the aggregate Talue of £32 17s 6d for the current year. Llandilo—There was only one from the town ot Lam- peter. Llandovery-There were none from the jam peter Union at this school at present. Application had also been made to the Cardigan and annartben County Councils for returns showing the amounts levied on the Lampeter Union under the Technical Instruction Act for the last three years, and low much of it had been applied within, or for tbe benefit of the Lampeter Union. No reply had been received from either County Council. The in- formation should be obtained at the inquiry. e- solutions in favour of the establishment ot e proposed new school had been passed by the Lampeter Town Council and Lampeter Board of Guardians. As to the school building, the Lam- peter Grammar School could be mitd for the present until some suitable premises were provided. A copy of the deed of trust and an extract from the report of the Schools Inquiry Commission (1867) upon this school could be produced if required. The Lampeter School Board having decided to build a new boys school to replace the present one this latter building would be available for the pro- posed school as soon as the new Boys' school had been opened. The present boys' school belonged to the old National School,'managers, and copies of the deeds of trust could be produced. The Inspector said it did not sound quite right, placing a boys' elementary school for a girls secondary school. Did they think it could be adapted ? Professor Walker I don't think there will be much difficulty. Why do you think it would be difficult ? The Inspector: For secondary schools you want more clais rooms, you also want the building a little more attractive in appearance than is necess.try in an elementary school. Prof. Walker explained that it did not do for the boys' hnnL because the nupils numbered 90 to I 100. They estimated 25 to 30 girls for the second- ary school. The difference was enormous, so the accomodation insufficient for 90 or 100 would be adequate, with alterations for 25 or 30 girls. As to the con- stitution of the committee of management, they proposed that one or more representatives be ap- pointed by each of the following bodiesLam- peter Town Council, Lampeter School Board, St.. David's College Board, Cardiganshire County Governing Body, Carmarthenshire County Govern- ing Body, and subscribers (if any). As to the finances, they estimated these as follows. Receipts,25 pupils at anaverage of <67 10s, ±,18.riu.. Lampeter Town Council, whom they hoped and believed would rate for technical instruction l the school was established, £10 j science grants, £10; total Z207 10s. Payments—Headmistress, £ 120; assistant, £ 50; other disbursements, Lib total, iCI95, leaving a balance of Liz 10s. The Inspector: Would there be any liability to keep the buildings in repair. Prof Walker: I suppose there would be. I don t know whether the other disbursements would cover that. We have taken no account of subscribers. I have no doubt that the cost of repairs could be covered by subscriptions from time to time. They hoped to be able to carry on the school without regular subscriptions, but he did not think there would be any difficulty in raising sums from time to time for the purposes of this school. Continu ing, Prof Walker said they took the basis of thirty- five pupils, but they hoped to exceed that number. He had a few statistics to illustrate the possibilities of drawing on the population, and of getting girls of the age of secondary education standing. The Peterwell Girls' Board School had 138 pupils on the rolls; average attendance, 117 number of the age of 13 and upwards, 20 pupil teachers, 3 pro- bationers, 2. Of course, there was a considerable population that did not send their children to that school but educated them otherwise. Besides, they could draw from a wider area, so that their estim- ate of twenty-five pupils was a moderate one. The Inspector: What provision is made at the present moment ? How are the pupil teachers trained ? Prof Walker By the teachers entirely. I might mention one other fact. A young lady in the town started a school last year, and bad about twenty pupils. There was also another small school with about half-a-dozen pupils. The Inspector Are there twenty pupils now 1 Prof Walker: No, not now. She has practically ceased, but the school is kept on by her sister. The Inspector: Would there likely be any feeling in the town that these girls' schools were ill-used ? Professor Walker Not the slightest. I have not heard the slightest difference of opinion in the town on the matter. The Inspector: Even from the teachers who kept I these schools ? Professor Walker: I have not consulted them. What we have to consider is the interest of the inhabitants as a whole. The Inspector: Certainly I put it because some- times it prejudices the interest of a school. Professor Walker: I believe that the present schools are only temporary. The Inspector: Is there any pupil teachers centre here 1 Mr Lewis (Tregaron): We have a pupil teachers centre at Tregaron, which is attended by between 20 and 30 pupils. Mr Jenkin Lloyd enquired whether it was pro- posed that the two mistresses of the new school should undertake the training of the pupil teachers. Professor Walker replied in the affirmative, and said the pupil teachers would go as ordinary pupils on the same ground as that laid down by the Festiniog system. Mr Jenkin Lloyd stated there had been a scheme under the consideration of the County Governing Body at their meeting at Aberystwyth the previous day. Professor Walker said the Lampeter Board did not desire to send their pupil teachers out of the town at all. They wished to have them ynder their own supervision. Rightly or wrongly, and it had the choice, Lampeter had chosen to educate its own pupil teachers. That was the long and short of it. Mr T. Thomas enquired whether he understood Professor Walker to say that it was not proposed to ask the Board of Education to divert any part of the money now devoted for secondary education for the purposes of this school. Would the E207 10a he had mentioned be sufficient to meet the requirements of the new school ? Professor Walker: That is the estimate. Mr Thomas: And it is not proposed to ask tne Board of Education to divert any portion of the county money to this new school Prof. Walker: Not at all. The Inspector said the reason of his being there that day was not to take the least step to alter the existing schemc. The Board of Education had a proposal before it to sanction an arrangement for the training of pupil teachers, and it so happened that this particular arrangement was one that affected the balance of secondary education. Prof Walker said their hope and belief was that the establishment of a girls' intermediate school at Lampeter would not divert a penny from the county scheme. But there were certain sources, not affected by that, which they hoped would be drawn to them. They should be entitled to some allow- ance from the County Council under the Technical Education Act. That would not affect the other county schools. In the second place they should be entitled to what was popularly called the Beer Money." A great deal of that at present was not applied to education at all. And he did not see why county scholarships should not be tenable at this proposed school. Mr M. Morgan That alters the case very much. Mr Lewis, Tregaron, said three of the Cardigan- shire county schools also received money under the technical instruction rate for cookery and laundry work, and he wished to know how they would be affected should this proposed new school also make a claim. Prof Walker: We should insist on our right to a share of that. In reply to Mr T. Thomas, the Inspector ad- mitted that he did not see how they could make the scholarships tenable at the proposed school without affecting the scheme. Professor Walker said the County Council had so far allocated the money for existing institutions, but if they established their school, and seeing that they were rated under the Technical Education Act; and seeing that they had :tbe same rights as other communities in the county, he did not quite see why they should not get their share. The Inspector I think you must recognise that the rate under the Technical Instruction Act stands on quite a different basis to the Beer Money." Mr. T. Thomas: Does the scheme state that the administration of the technical instruction rate should be in the hands of the County Governing Body? The Inspector replied in the negative, and said the funds specified in the Act were the Beer Money, certain endowments, and the Treasury Grants, and these could not be touched without affecting the scheme. Thus the promoters of the proposed school would lose out of their calculation the Beer maney." Principal Bebb enquired whether any of that money was allocated to any interest outside that affected by the Intermediate School Act. He did not know how the Technical Instruction money was used at present. Prof. Walker said the technical instruction money was different to the Beer money." The technical instruction money was under a scheme for the whole Kingdom. The Inspector: The technical instruction money is administered by the County Council. Principal Bebb again asked whether this Beer money" was used for any other purpose outside the scheme of the Welsh Intermediate Act. Mr Jenkin Lloyd As far as I know I don't think it is. The Inspector said it was a pity Mr Fryer was not present. He suggested that one of the members of the County Governing Body should communicate with him asking whether the whole of the local taxation(customs and excise money) was in practice actually applied for the purposes of the county scheme under the Welsh Act. Principal Bebb, speaking on behalf of St David's College, said the reason for having included the College School in this inquiry was that as they were responsible for the school they might have the opinion of the Board of Education on tne merits of the school as an institution, and any advise in regard to the improving of it As every- one present knew the school was managed entirely by the College authorities, as any funds outside the fees and subscriptions were raised in the neighbour- hood. The question now arose, just as it had already arisen, whether the school, if satisfactorily reported on by the inspector, was a school which should be entitled to receive part of the technical instruction rate levied in the county. He gathered from what had fallen from the Inspector that that was the only fund which would come in ques- tion. The Inspector remarked that the other funds were clearly allocated under the scheme. Of course, they were aware the Technical Instruction Act was very strict in its provision as to what must be the regulations and characteristics to receive a grant under it. There was no power or possibility of a school which was in any sense exclusively or strictly denominational stepping in and getting this money. The Inspector then proceeded to take the evid- ence of the Tregaron representatives. Mr Lewis, the headmaster, said he had a state- ment to read on behalf of the Tregaron governors. Possibly, some of the arguments set forth therin would now be of no weight in face of the explana- tions given that morning. The statement was as follows:- "Having given the above matter our serious con- sideration, we are forced to the conclusion that the aegaron:district is already amply provided with means for secondary education. Therefore an ad- ditional school is not only unnecessary, but would, if established, seriously injure the Tregaron school, being the only one affected, and, thereby, greatly hamper the cause of education in the district, In a thinly populated district like ours, there are certainly not enough girls to guarantee the success of a purely girls' secondary school, inasmuch as at Tregaron-a dual school-the numbers are only just sufficient to make it a financial success. By the establishment of the proposed school our num- bers would necessarily materially decrease; this would cause a corresponding decrease in the staff, and, consequently, the efficiency of the teaching would suffer. On the other hand, Lampeter could never hope, in competition with schools already founded, to raise sufficient numbers to form a really efficient school. The teaching staff of the Tregaron School comprises graduates of the Uni- versities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London. The five members are specialists in mathematics classics, science, music, and French (studied abroad), Welsh, English and commercial subjects respectively. In addition they are highly quali- fied in other subjects. If we had to dispense with the services of any one of them, the teaching in the school would becoma more or less one-sided. A school at Lampeter with a smaller staff could not compensate for this loss, and, consequently, one or more important branches of education would be grossly neglected in the district. We have, at considerable expense, made special provision for the instruction of girls in cookery, laundry, and dairy work, sewing and music. It seems a pity that this provision should, to a great extent, fail of its pur- pose, as it would do were we to lose many of our girls, while the Lampeter governors would have to go to unnecessary expense in providing similar apparatus. The train service between Lampeter and Tregaron is quite convenient. Pupils can arrive on Monday morning and return Friday evening without missing any of the teaching, L and the distance between the two towns is just over ten miles, and really Lampeter is more conveniently placed, with regard to travelling facilities, than most of the neighbouring centres from which we draw our pupils. Should the proposal for the formation of the Lampeter School meet the approval of the Board of Education, other localities, equally distant and less conveniently situated, might justly make a similar claim. One reason given by the promoters of the scheme at Lampeter is to provide instruction for the pupil teachers. We have already provided for such intruction, inasmuch as classes for pupil teachers are being held on Saturdays, and are attended by over twenty pupils, some of whom walk from places further distant than Lampeter, while the train service from Lampeter is quite convenient so that the Lampeter teachers could avail themselves of these classes with very little difficulty. The architect of the Charity Commissioners has approved the plans and specifications for the headmaster's house with accommodation for twelve boarders, and we have under consideration the opening of a hostel for girls, under the supervision of the lady-teachers. This would place the Tregaron School on the same footing as a girls' public boarding school, and be an inestimable advantage to the girls of the neigh- bourhood. The establishment of a hostel, however, would be impossible were a girl's school to be started at Lampeter. It is generally felt that the over-lapping of Intermediate Schools is dangerous to the efficiency, and, consequently, to the success, of secondary education in Wales. We strongly feel y 11 that a school at Lampeter, of the same standard as ours, built at such a short distance, would produce ill-feeling, keen and injurious competition. It would also necessarily cripple considerably the Tregaron School already in existence, and a pre- cedent would be set likely to damp the energy of the authorities of other intermediate schools throughout Wales, as they would feel it dangerous to incur any fresh responsibilities, fearing, develop- ments in their own respective districts, similar to those contemplated at Lampeter. Secondly, that as the following financial reasons prove, the Board of Education would be treating this School in an inequitable manner should they consent to the establishing of the proposed school at Lampeter. Under the scheme for Intermediate and Technical Education, dated August 1st, 1896, Tregaron was made a County School d istrict,provided the following conditions were complied with, viz, to provide a site and to build and equip a school suitable to the requirements of the district. The County Governing Body to grant the sum of igl,034 towards the building fund, and the district to contribute the remainder. Trusting to that scheme, we cheerfully accepted the responsibility and built excellent school buildings to accomodate 120 pupils (although under the scheme we were only asked to provide for 100), at a cost of £ 2,665. The Tregaron County School district consists of the whole of the Tregaron Union, with a population (at the last census) of 8,613, together with seven parishes from the Lampeter Union, containing a population of 4,030. So that we had to provide and equip school buildings for a population of 12,643. This cost us, as before stated, £ 2,665. It is only fair to state, however, that the County Governing Body gave a second grant of £ 235 towards the building fund. The remainder of the cost, viz, £1,395, was made up by subscription". By this it is observed that we bad to provide accommodation for a population of 4,030 from the Lampeter Union at a cost of £883. In other words, that one-third of the expense was incurred with a view to provid- ing for pupils from the Lamper Union. We con- fidently submit that it would be harsh treatment towards us to establish another school at Lampeter, when there is within ten miles of that town a school already well-equipped and sufficient for the whole district, especially, taking into consideration the fact that the establishment of another school at Lampeter would greatly militate against the success of Tregaron School. We contend that a school cannot maintain a sufficient staff unless there are at least 60 to 80 pupils in attendance. With three kindred institutions already in such a small district it is hopeles to maintain a fourth with such numbers. Even admitting that the money, viz., p,888, spent in providing accommodation for pupils from Lampeter district were to be refunded, unnecessary expense would be incurred in beeping in repair a building disproportionately large to our needs, and, in addition, to have a large building half-filled with pupils is most discouraging to both managers and staff. In conclusion, after we (with the help of friends in the neighbourhood) have made a hearty response and fulfilled in every detail, the requirements of the scheme, under great disadvantages, considering the poverty of the district, we certainly consider it unfair that a school should be established at Lampeter thus rendering, to a large extent, our past efforts and continuous labours unavailing." Commenting upon the Saturday teaching of pupil teachers as adopted at Tregaron, the In- spector said even if they could prove that that could be satisfactorily worked from Lampeter, it did no"- answer the purpose. Both the Depart- mental Committee on the training of pupil teachers ard the Board of Education were decidedly in favour, as a matter of principle, of the education and training of pupil teachers in secondary schools. Mr Jenkin Lloyd explained that a scheme had been drawn up by the County Governing Body, and was ready for distribution to the various School Boards within the county. In reply to Professor Walker, it was said that the total number of pupils at Tregaron School was 89, of whom there were six girls from Lam- peter. Professor Walker said a great deal had been made of the immense decline in numbers that was likely to follow from the establishment of a girls' school at. Lampeter. Apparently, the difference would only be six. < m Mr Lewis So far we have not bad many pupils from Lampeter. Professor Walker: That is part of our plan. We don't get our girls taught now. Mr Lewis said as their school had been a great success in the past pupils had come from Lampeter and the district. As a matter of fact, parents had told him personally that the reason why they sent their girls there was because the school was a success, and he thought that in future they would draw more girls from the Lampeter Union. The Inspector: Whether you are a success or not, I would suggest that you take your present numbers as fairly representative of what you are likely to get from Lampeter. Professor Walker: We have got out the sub- stantial fact that there are no more than six girls at present from the Lampeter Union in the School. And if the school can exist and flourish and be so eminently successful, as it appears it is, he could not imagine that these results would bring about the decline of the school. Mr T. Thomas said the case of the Llandyssul School was entirely on a par with that of the Tregaron managers, with one exception. In the statement made by Tregaron, it was stated that their school would be the only one affected. He was afraid that Llandyssul would also be. The district served by Llandyssul covered an area, which, from what had been set forth that day, was contemplated to be served by this school at Lam- peter. From the explanation they had had that day, however, a good part of their dissatisfaction had been removed. Their experience had been that at first they drew hardly any pupils from the Lampeter Union, but as the school had become more widely known and the character of the ed uca- tion given at the school more widely recognised, their numbers were steadily increasing. And this year they had fifteen pupils from the Lampeter Union attending their school. They had every reason to expect that this number would increase, and he was within the mark in stating that school- masters in certain schools in the Lampeter Union bad classes preparing for their examinations. At Llandyssul they had to make provision for forty girls. Their number at present was 26. They were required to) provide accommodation tor parisnes within the Lampeter Union which bad been allocated to the Llandyssul district. They spent about P,3,500 on buildings and grounds, and were going to spend another £1,000 in providing a master's house with accommodation for boy and girl boarders. Of course, they sympathised with their Lampeter friends, and agreed with what Prof. Walker had said, that they had a perfect right to train their own pupil teachers. But they con- tended that now was not the time for that, as Lampeter should have made out its case when the scheme was first drafted. By granting this school to Lampeter now, they would only be multiplying expense. As to the training of pupil teachers, they had the fact that the County Governing Body was at present engaged upon a scheme which was in- tended to embrace the whole county. Another point he wished to show was that Cardiganshire was mainly an agricultural county, and the people were comparatively poor. An halfpenny rate did not produce very much. There was an undoubted feeling at the present time that the number of secondary schools established in the county already was more than the circumstances really required. If they had not quite so many they would have been able possibly to have more successful schools than those established at the present time. There was, consequently, the feeling-and they were bound to give expression to it—without the least hostility to their good friends at Lampeter, that if there was to be an increase of this intermediate education, it would tend to cripple what was now attaining a large amount of success under rather difficult circumstances. Alderman Tivy Jones asked whether their friends were not wasting time and labour, inasmuch as it had been shown that they could no go behind the scheme already established in the county. The Inspector said he hoped something bad been done to mitigate that alarm. He was bound to hear all sides on the general ground that it was proposed to start a secondary school for girls which involved certain treatment to pupil teachers, and, therefore, became a question for the Board of Education. Therefore, the attempt to start this school in a certain sense would have to be sanctioned or not sanctioned by the Board of Education, and the school, if started, although it would not touch county funds at all, still, it was arguable, would cempete with others. And by allowing the establishment of this school would perhaps stultify eristing secondary schools authorised uuder the Act. Alderman Tivy Jones said he could hardly see that they were going to bring about a state of collapse in all these districts if a school was started at Lampeter under an organised representa- tive body. The Inspector: If it is proposed to make fresh provision for secondary education in the Lampeter Union the calculations on which buildings in other districts were based are to a certain extent vitiated. The Rev W. James, who next spoke, said he was under a disadvantage as regards the County Governing Body, as he was not present at the meeting held the previous day at Aberystwyth, and he only knew from the friend who was there that they had discussed the scheme and passed a unanimous vote in opposition. He would only say that had he been present at the meeting he should have voted the same way. His objection was based on the fact that he considered the intermediate scheme in Cardiganshire was now com- plete, and there was no need of multiplying the schools to a further extent. It would interfere with all the arrangements that had been made and disorganise the whole system. He found in some counties there was already a plethora of schools. For instance, in Pembrokeshire, there were two which had no special reason for their existence, which would be closed in a year er two, and probably that would be the case in Cardigan- shire if these schools were multiplied. Lampeter's chance came five or six years ago, but somehow or other they did not take the chance given them. They let slip the opportunity, and he thought it was too late now to come in line with the inter- mediate system in Cardiganshire. MrJenkin Lloyd said he was present at the meeting of the County Governing Body the previous day, but he was not supposed to be the cock to crow that day (laughter). Strong remarks were made at the meeting, and some members could go back to the time when Lampeter was offered the opportunity of establishing the school, and they refused. The Inspector said it might be some comfort to them to know that the wisdom or folly of Lam- peter at that epoch would not affect the question at present. Mr Lloyd added that at the meeting of the County Governing Body a scheme for the training of pupil teachers, drawn up by Principal Roberts and Mr L. J. Roberts, H.M.I.S., was presented, which was considered by gentlemen better able than himself to judge to be a very good one. The Inspector suggested that having beard what they had the members of the County Governing Body present should make representations to that authority and get them to write to the Board of Education to express their views. Professor Walker, replying to the statements of the Tregaron and Llandyssul representatives, said first of all they had bad a general description of the schools, which were stated to be in an extremely flourishing condition. The prospect of sudden death which seemed to overhang certain schools did not in the least overhang Tregaron and Llandyssul. But there was rather a right-about- face, for although having been informed of the steady progress and brilliant prospects of these schools they were asked to believe that both schools were likely to collapse if Lampeter established a girls' school. There were in the Tregaron School nine pupils from the Lampeter district, six of whom were girls. They had, there- fore, to believe that the withdrawal of those six from a total of 89, allowing for some problematical and shadowy girls who might not yet be born, was to cause the prosperity of the Tregaron School to cease, and bring on the hapless Tregaron district the expense and liability incurred for the benefit of those six Lampeter girls and three boys. It seemed .that exactly the same picture had been drawn by the representative of Llandyssul. The facts with regard to Llandyssul were these. There were, according to their own returns, 15 pupils at their school from the Lampeter Union. Nine of them were boys, and could not possibly be affected by the proposed school. They were once more, therefore, reduced to the narrow basis of six, and if they studied the map he thought they would come to the conclusion that five of the six were likelv, in normal circumstances, to come from districts whose connection with Llandyssul would be imperfect. With regard to those drawn at the present moment from this district, he might say that the headmaster happened to be a native of this locality, and local connections had a great influence. With regard to the means of com- municat-ion; it was extremely interesting to a person living on the M. and M. Railway to hear, on the authority of Tregaron, that the railway facilities were so good. He had lived 16 years at Lampeter, and had not seen them vet. The Inspector said it would be instructtve to know where the remaining 13 girls they expected to get to this scheol would come from. Prof. Walker said there were pupils of private schools, which would naturally disappear. There were cases of parents who did not send their chil- dren to school, and might if a superior school were established. There was a number of parents who would send their children to a good secondary school if one were established, but who did not send them to Tregaron, or did not admire the lodgings provided there as much as the Tregaron representatives did themselves. There were also girls at the Board School who would continue their education at the secondary school. Then there was the second aspect of the case of Tregaron and Llandyssul, which he would enter a very strong protest, and that was the implication of right, in equity if not in law, to prevent the e.-tau- lishment at Lapjppter of a secondary school. That right he denied totally, and the remarks that had been made with regard to it seemed to have pro- ceeded entirely from a misapprehension and false assumption. The assumption seemed to be that the proposed Lampster school, somehow or other, was connected with the Intermediate Education Act. The proposed Lampeter school had no con- nection whatever with the Intermediate Education ) Act, and that Act or any other authority could not prevent the establishment of the school. They bad an absolute and indisputable right to establish such a school for the convenience of their popula- tion, and they would see, when they had established it, what funds, if any, they bad a right to share in. And in the establishment of a new school the lorvs of the Inspector was simply to see and enquire whether the school, if established, would satisfy the Technical Instruction Act, and would be recog- nised as a suitable place for the training of pupil cl teachers. The Inspector said Prof. Walker was perfectly correct in saying that Lampeter had every right to do what it liked in the way of establishing a school, and, of course, the same authority which was re- sponsible for the scheme was not likely to counten- ance an arrangement which would impair the success of that scheme. Prof. Walker said regarding the position of Lam- peter with respect to pupil teachers, first of all there bad been a confusion in the arguments in the cases of Tregaron and Llandyssul on that point. It seemed to him to be argued as if the provision at Lampeter for pupil teachers would mean an injury to those two places. That was not possible. The pupil teachers at present at Lampeter did not go to Tregaron and Llandyssul; they were educated by the teachers of their respective schools. The state of matters contemplated was this. The Lam- peter School Board had had before it the question of the best means of educating their pupil teachers. It had decided that what was called the Festiniog scheme was the best, and wished to secure a school in the place to which it could send girl and boy pupil teacliers. At tne same nme me Doaru deliberated the alternative course, and decided, sooner than send the pupil teachers to Tregaron and Llandyssul for their education, to continue the present system. So there was no prospective injury to Tregaron or Llandyssul. The county scheme had also been before the School Board, and was re- jected as not offering sufficient advantages to counterbalance the disadvantages of not having them taught. The Inspector What was the reason for that ? Mr T. Lloyd said the Board rejected it on the ground of expense. Mr Lewis pointed out that there were two pupil teachers from the Lampeter Union at present at the Tregaron School. Prof. Walker replied that as far as the School Board was concerned that was not affected by this. The sending of pupil teachers to Tregaron had been deliberately rejected. The Inspector said he hoped the representatives present would make it clear to the County Govern- ing Body that it was not a question of interfering with the scheme. He thought they ought to under- stand that. Mr T. Thomas: We did not understand that when coming here. The Inspector said he could not say what the opinion of the Board would be when he reported, or even what he himself would report. But it did seem to him that some of the objections had been cut away, such as the objection on the ground of interference with the county scheme. Looking at, it quite fairly the objection on the ground of interference with the numerical position of the two schools was also reduced to narrow limits. He did not say it had disappeared. He would only ask, before they left the room, cor.sidering that Lampeter evidently felt very much, and considering that Lampeter was the county town without any county school, and lying about equi-distance j between two schools at a considerable distance from it, whether it was not just that now the ground had been cleared and they saw what was expected—that this was to be a small girls' school run at the personal risk of Lampeter, and to meet a firm determiuation on their part not to send their boys and girls away to places 10 or 12 miles off-whether it was not possible that they might leave that room unanimous in letting this be. He had not had time to think over the evidence, but he thought, perhaps, they could decide in favour of it before they left the room. Aid Tivy Jones said be thought it unfortunate that the County Governing Body should pass a resolution to oppose the proposal before knowing what was intended, The Inspector said they bad the broad fact that a new school was to be established. Mr Jenkin Lloyd said they had the fact that Lampeter intended to establish a school which would interfere with the county scheme. Principal Bebb said seeing the rize of Lampetei itself, what seemed to him likely to happen was that a sufficient number of girls from the town and the immediate neighbourhood could be raised to carry on the school. It seemed to him that the matter had been reduced, with the removal of getting money from the intermediate rate, to just the question of the pupil teachers' school. He thought he might really say that a school of this kind would be started in Lampeter. He did not see, therefore, that the question as to whether it would affect the other two schools was likely to weigh much with the Board of Education, except so far that the Board would not recognise this school. It seemed a pity to raise objections on technical grounds to a thing that would take place, which would only create a cer- tain amount of ill feeling if there was any opposi- tion on the part of the other schools. One bad to recognise that it might draw a certain number from Llandyssul and Tregaron, but the numbers raised would be raised in the immediate neighbour- hood of the town itself. He quite agreed that the multiplication of these schools was an evil, and ever since he had been in the district he held strongly that it was a mistake. But they had to consider that Lampeter was one of the largest towns in Cardiganshire, and was quite capable of feeding within its own limits a school of this kind. As the Inspector had sai i, he thought it would be a great pity if there was any objection. It would be much better if the thing could be settled without friction, recognising the fact that such a school was bound to be started, whether it was open for pupil teachers or not. The Rev W. James said he had consulted his friends asoto the remarks j ustjrnade by the Inspector They all felt that the matter had come before them in rather an incomplete sort of way, and they were not perfectly sure that they understood the ques- tion at the present time. They thought it only fair that the scheme should go formally before the two County Governing Bodies, when there would be a chance to consider the matter more maturely than they could that day, and could also secure the views of the local governing bodies. They did not come there in any spirit of opposition or hostility, but as to Lampeter being the county town, it was mainly so becanse of its situation, and not on account of the nnmber of inhabitants. The Inspector: You can't give it its designation of a county town without it aspiring to certain honours. The Inspector said be was aware the representa- tives could not pledge themselves. He did not wish to prejudice the question, and it would require a good deal of .thought on his part and on the Board's part. He thought that the proposal that the matter should be considered by the respective public bodies on a definite written arrangement with the Lampeter School Board was a perfectly reasonable one. Then he would suggest that all should communicate with the Board of Education, and upon these com- munications being received he would be able to embody his remarks upon them in his report. After all, they might possibly see their way clear by then. He was extremely sorry at the mistake which had occurred, but he thought that if those members of the County Governing Body present that day were present at a meeting when a written communication from the Lampeter School Board was read, and gave such explanation as was necess- ary, be thought the.Body would then be able to deal with the matter by letter. It would be very difficult to arrange a speciameetingwith the County Governing Body, and he was afraid it was a mis- chief that could not be undone. It was then understood that the Lampeter School Board should send a written communication setting forth in detail what was proposed to the different bodies interested, on which com- munications could be sent to the Board of Educa- tion and the School Board. A vote of thanks to the Inspector, on the proposi- tion of Mr T. Thomas, seconded by Mr Lewis, Tre- garon, envied the inquiry.

LAMPETER.

IAberystwyth Town Council