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ABERYSTWYTH TOWN ''I.'COUNCIL.

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ABERYSTWYTH TOWN ''I.' COUNCIL. LIVELY MEETING. At the fortnightly meeting of the above Council on Tuesday, there were present: Mr. J), C. Roberts (mayor), prcsiding; Aldermen Roberts, Peter Jones, Doughton." and Palmer, Councillors J. Jenkins, C. M. Williams, E. P. Wynne, T. E. Salmon, R. Peake, E. H. James, R. J. Jones Isaac Hopkins, with the Town Clerk (Mr. A. J. Hughes), the Borough Accountant (Mr. H. L.Evans),and the Borough Surveyor (Mr. Rees Jones). MAYOR'S OFFICER. The Mayor intimated that he had asked Mr. 'Councillor"Peake if he would act as Mayor's Officer for the ensuing year, and he had kindly consented to do so. ARRIVAL OF THE MAIL. A letter was read from Mr. P. Williams, post- master. in reply to the Town Clerk's communication re delivery of letters. The letter stated that every effort was being made to effect an early delivery, and on the previous day the postmen had returned to the office by 9.10 o'clock, aud on the following day by 9.15. He added that he was forwarding the Town Clerk's letter to the Surveyor. The Town Clerk said that he had written to Mr. Denniss, manager of the Cambrain Railway, as instructed. Councillor Williams asked if they could not have a record of the arrival of the mail every morning. Since the last Council meeting he was informed that it had been late every morning—one morning one hour late. He understood the young man from the Corporation Offices was going to keep a record of the arrival of the mail, as well as of the other train*. They ought to have the record presented at every meeting of the Council. Letters did not sometimes arrive till long after 9 o'clock. The Mayor The mail was an hour late one day last week. Councillor Salmon What's the remedy ? The Mayor: The only thing we can do is to keep a record of the time of arrival, and try to bring to bear all the influence we can on the Railway Company. Councillor Williams We ought to send the next fortnight's record to the Manager. Councillor Jones thought a great improvement had been effected this season. The letters were delivered much earlier than they used to be. The Mayor: There is no doubt about that. Still, the trains are late. Councillor Jones thought a record should be sent weekly to the Manager of the Company. He believed there might be an explanation that other Railway Companies had contributed to the result. They ought to get at the real cause, and try to remedy it as soon as possible. 1 It was then resolved to have a record of the time of the arrival of the mail every morning submitted to the Council every fortnight. The Town Clerk' said that there was a record kept at the Post Office, which he had no doubt Mr. Williams would supply. Alderman Jones: It would be an advantage if We could have it independently. Councillor Wynne said that two years ago they did send an account regularly to Mr. Dennis, who stated in reply that he was aware of the delays, and that each delay had been investigated. Councillor Williams The mail was not included in that. Alderman Jones It is useful to keep pegging at them. There has certainly been a great improve- ment. TOWN CRIER'S UNIFORM. The Town Crier (Mr. John Lloyd) wrote stating that it was now 12 months since the Corporation presented him with his uniform, and he trusted they would provide him again with one this year, The Town Clerk said the letter was dated June 26th., and had only been received that morning. The letter was referred to the Finance Committee. COUNTY COURT AREAS. A letter was read from the Local Government Board stating that they had been requested by the .Lord Chancellor to bring under the notice of the local authorities an order in Council which had been recently passed consolidating the whole of the existing orders in Council as to County Court districts in England and Wales. They enclosed two copies of the order. It would be observed that the County Court districts were defined in the order by reference to unions and parishes as constituted on the 1st April, 1898, and that every parish and with few exceptions every urban district was brought within the boundaries of a single County Court district. They suggested that the attention of the ratepayers should be called to the order. which might be open for their inspection. Councillor Jones Does that apply to us here ? The Town Clerk: Yes. There are Aberystwyth, Aberayron, and Lampeter County Courts, and it defines the area comprised within each of them. It affects every district in England and Wales. PROPOSED TOWX HALL IMPROVEMENTS. A letter was read from Mr. H. C. Fryer, Clerk to the Cardiganshire County Council, stating that with reference to his (the Town Clerk's) communi- cation on the subject of the proposed additions to the Aberystwyth Town Hall, he was directed by the County Council to ask whether the Corporation would be good enough to appoint a eommtttee of this body to meet the Finance Committee of the County Council and discuss the question generally. The plans of the proposed alterations were laid before the County Council at the last meeting, and no difficulties would be placed in the way of the proposed improvements provided the rights and vested interest of the County in the South wing were fully safeguarded and secured. It was also decided that the Finance Committee of the Coun- cil should meet in order to consider the plans and proposals and discuss them with representatives of the Town Council should, they (the Town Council) approve of the suggestion. The meeting of this Comraittoe would be held on Wednesday, August 2nd, and the Committee would be glad if the Town Conncil representatives could make it convenient to join them at twelve that day for a conference on the matter. The Finance Committee of the Town Council was appointed to meet the Finance Committee of the County Council. BAND STAND. A letter was read from Mr. Jack Edwards, stating that now that the season was so far advanced, and tidings of the proposed band stand were not forth- coming, it would be just as well to let the matter drop for this year, and more satisfactory arrange- ments made for the next. The Surveyor said that the band stand had been ordered, and he read the last communication he received from the firm (July 15th) which stated that owing to the works being closed from that date for ten days holidays, they were unable to give an undertaking that they would deal with the matter at once. Councillor Salmon moved that the firm be in- formed that unless they could complete the order by August 1st, it would be cancelled for this season. Alderman Jones seconded. The Surveyor said that there was no stipulation as to time. He had prepared everything for the stand. Alderman Palmer said that he had some experi- ence with regard to ordering iron work from differ- ent firms, and had known an order like theirs to take three or four months. To get the band in time next summer they would have to give the order in January. Councillor Salmon's proposition was carried. A DISPUTE. A latfter was read from Mr. John Evans, solicitor, stating that he had been instructed by Mr. John Jones, 2, Northgate-street, respecting the damage caused to his house by the erection of the adjoining house of Miss Jenkins. It appeared that the new lease to her had not yet been granted and until it was granted, he asked that the partition wall should be examined. The Town Clerk said that there was a dispute pending between Mr. John Jones and the contract- or of Miss Jenkin's house, owing to an alleged damage done to Mr. Jones' end through the erection of the latter's house. The Town Clerk was instructed to look into the matter, together with the Surveyor, and report to the Public Works Committee. CHIEF CONSTABLE AND FIRE BRIGADE. A letter was read from Mr. Howell Evans, the Chief Constable, stating that he was in receipt of the Town Clerk's letter asking him to accept the captaincy and to undertake the formation of a new Fire Brigade. He had carefully considered the matter and although the duties connected there- with entailed a considerable amount of work and responsibility, being anxious to render what assist- ance he could to the public, he was prepared to undertake the duties relative to the office subject, of course, to the approval of the Standing Joint Committee, a meeting of which would be held before the end of this month, when the matter would be laid before them, and until he received their consent he could not undertake to do anything. He added that when the matter had been dealt with by them be would immediately communicate with him (the Town Clerk) on the subject. THE BYE-LAWS. The Town Clerk stated that the Corporation Bye-laws were getting old. They were sanctioned as far back as July, 1884. Since then various improvements had been made in the bye-laws, making them more adaptable to the present time, and the Council should consider whether it was a matter that should be referred to the General Purposes Committee. He would report to the Committee as to more recent hyc-Iaws, and call attention to any improvements that might suggest themselves to him. The matter was referred to the General Purposes Committee, the Town Clerk being instructed to secure a copy of more modern bye-laws. PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE. The Committee reported as follows: — The Medical Officer of Health presented his report for the quarter ending 30th June.—The Inspector of Nuisances submitted his books for the inspection of your Committee, and instructions were given thereon.—The Borough Surveyor reported that he had inspected the drains at Mr. D. Lewis's house in Great Darkgate-street. and that the work had been done which would in future do away with any complaint by Mr. Lewis.—The following plans were submitted to and approved by your Committee:— Messrs. Hosking and Miller's premises in Cambrian- street, subject to a payment of Is. per annum for a right of light at each end of the building on the ground lloor overlooking adjoining premises. Mr. Hugh Olivet's premises in Union-street, subject to the owners of premises at the back coming to terms for the division of same. The report was adopted. HARBOUR COMMITTEE. The Harbour Committee reported that a letter was read from Nobel's Explosives Company, in reply to the Town Clerk's letter complaining of the conduct of the master of their steamship Marmion," assuring the Corporation that no breach of the regulations would be committed in future. The Committee considered the under- taking to be satisfactory.—The Borough Surveyor- was instructed to purchase about 160 yards of light rails with crossings, frames, &c., for a sum not exceeding £25. The report was agreed to. MARKET COMMITTEE. This committee recommended that the half- yearly fair be advertised as heretofore, to appear in the local papers from the last week in August; that a new Weighing Machine be purchased and that tenders for same be invited from local tradesmen; and that permission be given the owner of Lord Ventnor, last year's prize horse, to use the Smith- field on the 18th prox. to exhibit and give a prize to the best of his stock. The Mayor, referring to the recommendation with regard to the weighing machine, said that two tenders had been received, viz., Messrs. Williams and White, £11; Mr. M. H. Davies, £11. The Mayor added that it was exactly the same machine therefore, the two firms had sent exactly the same price. Councillor Jones They can't supply it in half, I suppose (laughter). Councillor Salmon proposed that Mr. Davies tender be accepted. Alderman Palmer Why ? Councillor Salmon Well, it must be somebody. Alderman Jones suggested that Mr. James (chairman of the committee) should toss up between the two (laughter). Councillor Peake moved that the matter be referred to the committee with power to act. Councillor Jones seconded. Councillor Salmon Perhaps the two can arrange among themselves as to who is to have it. Councillor Peake's motion was agreed to. SEWAGE OUTLET. The following minutes of a committee of the whole Council were submitted:—It was resolved that Mr. Rees Jones be instructed to prepare forth- with plans and estimates for the purpose of conveying sewage to the junction of the two rivers in the harbour and that immediately the same are prepared the same be laid before a committee of the whole Council. The Surveyor was instructed to carry out the necessary work for the improve- ment of the present outlet. The report was adopted, on the motion of Alderman Palmer, seconded by Councillor Jones. LOANS. The report of the Finance Committee included the following recommendations:—To order the re-payment of a loan of £700 advanced to the Corporation on the 15th April, 1893, by Mr. D. C. Roberts on the security of the local rates, and to order the repayment of a loan of £200 advanced to the Corporation on the 17th May, 1889, by Miss Catherine Jenkins, on the security of the local rates.—Carried. TOWN CLERK'S SALARY. Councillor Williams remarked that he was now in a position to give the exact increase in the Town Clerk's salary as the result of its readjust- ment. Having gone into the exact amount reeeived by him in respect additional work" he was able to say that the exact increase he would receive was a little over £40. A "SCENE." The Finance Committee reported as follows with reference to Mr. Isaac Hopkins' lease:—A letter, dated 4th July, from Mr. Hngh Hughes, Solicitor, acting for Mr. Hopkins, stating that Mr. Hopkins, was now prepared to withdraw all claims against the Council on condition that the Council granted him a renewal of the lease of his two houses in South-road, on the terms quoted in 1895, was read. After considerable discussion, it was pro- posed and seconded that the renewal of the lease of the two houses be granted on the terms given in 1895. Whereupon the Chairman ruled that inas- much as the terms and conditions given Mr. Hopkins in 1895 had since been withdrawn and cancelled by the Conncil his last application must be treated as a fresh application, and that before it could be dealt with by your Committee it was necessary for them to visit and inspect the property anew, pursuant to a resolution of the Council which has hitherto been acted upon in cases of first application, and also in cases where fresh applica- tion has been received owing to previous terms and conditions given having been withdrawn and can- celled, and therefore he could not allow any deviation from the usual course in the case of Mr. Hopkins's premises, which must be visited by the Committee before terms and conditions can be decided upon and recommended to the Council. Councillor Williams, Chairman of the Finance Committee, in moving the adoption of this, said that he had now further looked into this matter. He had looked up the resolution of the Council cancelling the whole of the lease, and also other resolutions, so that he was quite satisfied that he did what was perfectly just and fair at the last meeting of the Finance Committee in ruling that they had no right to go behind what the Council had already done. The Mayor: Councillor Williams moves that this be received there is no recommendation. Councillor Peake seconded. Councillor Salmon suggested that it should stand over until he moved his resolution, of which he had given notice, that the lease be granted, This, he said, was merely the report of the Chairman (Councillor Williams) himself, without the consent of the Committee. The Chairman declared the meeting at an end, and made a report of his own. Councillor Williams: As it is my duty to do. Councillor Salmon I don't think it is your duty to put what construction you think fit on the pro- ceedings. This is merely your own opinion. Councillor Williams: It is not my own opinion at all. Tne Mayor: In so far as it is a record of what took place I don't think there can be any objection to it. Certain of the membrrs didn't agree with the ruling of the chairman of course, and we don't even to-day agree with him still we may take this as a record of what took place. Mr. Williams moves that this be received as a record of the com- mittee. Whether we approve or not, that is not one way or the other. In this way I consider it is sufficient that it should be accepted by the Council, As to the question of granting the lease that's another matter on another resolution. Councillor Salmon; This is not what took place. This a different application altogether to what he refers to. Councillor Williams: Not at all. This is the actual record of what took place, and it is my duty to put it here. I challenge anyone to disprove it. Alderman Jones This is a record of what took place, but it is not a record of what preceded the Chairman s ruling. That ought to be here. It should be preceded by the contentions that were made by the members of the Committee that it was perfectly in order. To have a correct record that should be included in the report as well as the Chairman's own ruling. The Mayor: The report ought to have been drawn out at the Committee meeting at the time. If any member suggest any additions to the report, they can be accepted now. Councillor Williams: If the question is to be opened I must be allowed to make some remarks. Alderman Jones said this was so interwoven with the notice of motion that appeared at the end of the agenda, that he thought it should be deferred till that came on, so that they might have the benefit of Mr. Williams' statement for the memders who were not present at the Committee, and also for the members who were present and differed in opinion from him. The notice of motion would cover the whole thing, therefore, the two should be taken together. Councillor Williams What has this to do with the notice of motion 1 Alderman Jones: I move that the consideration of this motion be deferred till the end. Councillor Salmon seconded. Alderman Palmer Will Mr. Williams, give us the date when this application of Mr. Hopkins was cancelled by the Council ? The Mayor: We can do that when the matter is discussed. Councillor Williams Is this the ordinary rule under which we act? This has nothing whatever to do with the special motion put on, and yet it appears I can't give the reason as to why I have inserted this. (To the Mayor) I shall always bow to your rulings however much I may differ from you. The Mayor: It is often done. Councillor Williams: Not unless there is a connection. The Mayor: But there is a connection, surely, this has been continually done, when there has been a motion oh the agenda by some member. I am quite prepared to allow Mr. Williams to make a statement, if he wishes it before putting the proposition. At the same time I would ask him not to do it till the end, in order not to have two discussions on practically the same question. I am quite willing that he should make a statement now, Councillor Williams Ko, I am not going to do anything contrary to the wishes of the Council. The Mayor I am sure you will not suffer in any way in not making the statement now. Will you make it now or at the end ? Councillor Williams said that he had a perfect right to make any staatement on the motion. Cer- tain statements were being made and certain in- ferences drawn, that he was not so anxious to act as fairly as other members. Therefore be thought it his duty to explain why he took the action he did in this case in Committee. It was not at all because he differed from êthe Committee as to whether Mr. Hopkins should have this lease or not. It was simply on a question of procedure. The Council, in Jfebruary 1895, cancelled all the terms and conditions given. They were not taken up till January, 1896. Mr. Williams quoted a report of the discussion that then took place, showing that the whole of a list presented to the Council was cancelled, after an amendment had been moved by the Mayor to a portion relating to the cancelling of terms where reversionary leases applied. At the time several members of the Council expressed a wish that the Finance book of the Council should be thoroughly cleared of all the old terms. It was prac- tically the unanimous feeling of the Council that they should try and make a start somewhere and put things in such an order that they might know where they were. At a subsequent meeting, Mr. Hopkins appeared before the Council, at which he was not present himself, being ill; but the remarks then made by Alderman Jones fully bore out his (Mr. Williams's) contention at the Council meeting that the whole of the old terms had been cancelled. Mr. Williams quoted Alderman Jones's speech from a newspaper cutting, and said it showed that whatever would be done would have to be considered from that period. Alderman Jones said Having passed resolutions, the Council should not depart from them." Mr. R. J. Jones also spoke. The terms would be considered afresh when the resolution would be considered again. Councillor Jones rose to a point of order. If his name was mentioned, the thing stated by him should be read. Councillor Williams read the statement, and also another of Alderman Jones' to the effect that "each case would now be taken on its merits, and each application must be treated afresh." Alderman Peter Jones: If you read Peter Jones' statement— Councillor Williams: I hope this will be discussed in a friendly spirit, there is nothing personal in it. Alderman Jones: Mr. Hopkins attended on that occasion, and I made certain remarks. You will find that these remarks are in harmony with what I did at the last meeting of the Council. Councillor Williams To my mind it is quite the contrary. Alderman Jones I think you have found some- thing that was not at that meeting. Councillor Williams No, it is a report in the local paper. He proceeded to read more extracts which he contended fully bore out the construction he put upon it. He read another extract from a speech by Alderman Jones which showed clearly to his mind, he said, that the whole list had heen cancelled and withdrawn. Mr. William Thomas also said the Town Council would be prepared to consider fresh applications on the merits. The Finance Committee, Mr. Williams went on to say, had ever since acted on that basis, feeling that they had no right to go behind it. There had been, he believed, no less than 13 fresh applications whose terms were cancelled in that schedule. The lessees had made fresh applications, and they were referred to the Finance Committee for con- sideration and report, and in every case they had been treated as fresh applications and terms given not dating behind the terms the Council had can- celled, but dating, as near as possible, to the date that the second application was received, in every case. There were many of these. He would take the first on the list—Thomas Morris, Mary-street. He had terms about the same time as Mr. Hopkius. They were also cancelled on the schedule. On that occasion Mr. Peter Jones was of the same opinion as himself that the old terms could not be given— that it must be considered as a fresh application, and ultimately Mr. Peter Jones and himself were appointed to meet Mr. Morris with regard to the widening of Mill-street, and also to the renewal of the lease of his property in Mary-street. The Mayor Mr. Jones objected to the grant to Mr. Morris on those terms, he desired to make terms in reference to that wall. Councillor Williams That's not so. Mr. Jones never moved anything in the matter of cancelling. He agreed with me that all those on the list should be cancelled. At that period there was nothing said about Mill-street. The Mayor That's not an answer to my conten- tion. I said the reason why he objected to the lease being given Mr. Smith was applying for was that we were desirous of making terms with reference to the wall. Councillor Williams: But the old terms were cancelled. He had to make a fresh application. Alderman Palmer here rose and asked on what question Mr. Williams was speaking, and what proposition was before the Council. The Mayor explained, and —— Councillor Williams said I hope to make it clear to Mr. Palmer, though I am not sure that I can. Alderman Peter Jones: That remark is uncalled for. Councillor Williams: I wish he would not intro- duce personal feelings. Alderman Palmer Nothing of the sort. The Mayor (to Mr. Williams) It was you your- self who introduced personal feelings by a reference to Mr. Palmer. It was an uncalled for personal reference to Mr. Palmer. Councillor Williams: It was not intended in any way personally. I am showing how we have acted in the past. Proceeding Mr. Williams said his contentiou was that the Committee considered every application anew. It was so in the case of Thomas Morris. They had acted in the same way with regard to this last application. The Com- mittee dare not go behind what the Council had done. There were others—there was the Rev. J. P. Morgan, North Parade. Mr. Mathias had new terms because the old ones were cancalled. He wanted to show clearly how the Committee had acted in accordance with the instructions of the Council. Having looked up the previous resolutions and the discussions he felt that in the case of Mr. Hopkins it ought to be treated in the some way as the other cases. The case of Mr. Hopkins had been referred to the F nance Committee, and it would have been reported in the ordinary way to the Council had not Mr. Salmon made the proposal he did. It was intended to visit Mr. Hopkins' premises in the same way that they visited the other premises. He pointed out to the Committee that it would be perfectly open to them to propose the same basis of renewal as before. His point was in ruling that having regard to the fact that the Council had cancelled the whole thing, he had no right to put a resolution that was directly con- trary to the previous decision of the Council. He consulted the Town Clerk on the following day and he fully agreed that the Finance Committee had no right to go behind what the Council had done. (To the Town Clerk) ? That is so ? The Town Clerk That's quite right, sir. Councillor Williams: And I put on record what actually took place, and my reasons for ruling as I did. Although I differed from the proposal I did not refuse it on that ground, but because it was not the right of the Commitee to go behind the Council. Councilor Salmon: You treat it as a new ap- plication. Councillor Williams Yes, and I tiied to explain to the Committee that every other case had been treated as a fresh application and that this should be treated in the same way—that the premises should be visited and a report presented. In the face of that I was surprised to see the Committee asked to do what was thoroughly irregular and illegal. The Mayor (interposing): I do'nt think you —— Councillor Williams: I am giving my opinion. I am not blaming any one. The Mayor: I can't allow you to say it was irregular and illegal. You should say it is only your opinion. Councillor Williams: Oh yes, I am willing. I have endeavoured to adduce statements to prove that my contention was the correct one, and that the proposal was irregular and illegal. I do'nt want to delay this matter for one moment. What personal feeling have I against granting Mr. Hop- kins' lease I only desire that this case should be treated in the same way as the others. I have no personal feeling. I venture to appeal to you if the course I have pursued is not a right one, having regard to what we did in the other cases. Councillor Salmon: With reference to these 13 you mentioned, was'nt it through their own fault thai they had to apply for renewals ? Councillor Williams No. But assuming that to be the case, the Council wished the whole to be cancelled. The Mayor proposed an amendment to the report that a few of these should not be cancelled. It was put to the vote and carried. The Mayor: There was an undertaking given at that time. Councillor Williams: No, sir. The Mayor (sharply) Excuse me, I ca'nt be dictated to. There was an undertaking given by the Council that when the application was made by these gentlemen whose leases had been can- celled because of this reversionary question, that their leases would he granted to them on the previous terms. L Councillor Jones: Yes, it was in reply to a question put by me. It was understood by the whole Council. Councillor Williams On behalf of the Finance Committee, I opposed it. Eight voted for the report and six against. There was no condition at all laid down. The last condition and terms had been on their books three years. The question of reversionary leases had really been settled in March, 1897; and from that date the Council could renew all reversionary leases without applying for an inquiry. There was a whole twelve months for Mr. Hopkins to carry out that lease. (To the Mayor). Assuming that your version is correct The Mayor There's no assuming about it. It is correct that these applications would be dealt with on the same terms as previously. Councillor Williams There's nothing of the kind. Councillor Jones This is a serious point. You are labouring under a misapprehension altogether, Mr. Williams. I remember my question and the answer given to it. Councillor Williams Assuming that to be the case, there had been the whole twelve months when Mr. Hopkins could have taken out his lease- But how could he take it out ? He hadn't done a single thing to carry out the conditions during that period. There was no hardship of any kind connected with the case; Mr. Hopkins was to blame, not the Council. Where was the hardship? As Mr. Hopkins told them, he was going to claim damages, they waited for some definite communica- tion till the last Council meeting when it came in at the close and was referred to the Finance Com- mittee. If they had that letter before, it would have been reported on in the ordinary way. The moment he withdrew his claim it was intended to visit his premises and present a report. Where was the hardship ? Where was the delay on the part of the Council ? If there was any delay, Mr. Hopkins himself was to be blamed, not the Council or the Finance Committee, He felt perfectly satisfied that the action he took on the Committee was the regular and legal one, the one they had always acted upon. They could not go behind what the Council had done. He had no feeling in the matter. Mr. Williams added that he was prepared to answer any question. The Mayor then put the proposition that the consideration of this matter be deferred till Mr. Salmon's motion was reached, which was carried by 8 to 2 (Mr. Williams and Mr. Jenkins). The other recommendations of the Finance Committee were then taken, and adopted. They were as follows:—The application of the M. and M. Railway Company.—Your Committee having re- considered the application of the General Manager of the M. and M. Railway Company for a lease of the premises adjoining their Railway and now occupied by Messrs. James & Co., recommend the granting of a lease for the term of 21 years from the 12th May last, determinable by the Corporation only at the end of 14 years last should the Cor- poration require the premises for municipal purposes, subject to an annual rent of £20 for the tirst two years of the term and an annual rent of £25 for the residue of the term. The lease to be in the form of the Corporation lease as far as same- is applicable to the case, and to contain an ad- ditional covenant by the lessee not to assign or underlet any part thereof without the written consent, of the Corporation. Not to interfere with or in any way prejudice the public and others using the Smithfield on market, fair, and other days. Aberystwyth Gas Company's Application—The application of the Gas Company for the renewal of the lease of their premises was considered, and your Committee being unanimously of the opinion that the site would be the most "eligible for the purpose of future Public Markets, recommend that this property be scheduled as property not to be renewed.—Guarantee for the performance of Con- tract—The Town Cierk having seen the several purchasers of the property recently let by auction, with reference to the sureties they are required to provide who shall enter into a guarantee for the due observance of the terms and conditions of the letting, the following are the sureties submitted— For Mr. Salmon:—Mr. Theodore Frank Fear, Caergog Terrace, Aberystwyth.—For Mr. WT. H Palmer:—Mr. J. J. James, Solicitor, and Mr. Lewis, Manager of the National Provincial Bank, Aberystwyth,.—The same was approved by your Committee. GENERAL PURPOSES COMMITTEE. The report of this Committee was as follows The Town Clerk is requested by your Committee to report upon all resolutions of the Council, within the last, three years, relative to obstruction on Marine Terrace Beach, &c.—Instructions were given to the Town Clerk to write to the owners of hackney carriages informing them that he (the Town Clerk) was instructed to proceed without delay against any persons reported to have com- mitted breaches of bye-laws relative to hackney carriages. To consider an application from Messrs. M. H. Davis & Sons for a lease of a piece of ground on Rofawr for building a Warehouse thereon.—To consider an application from Mrs. Mary Jones for a renewal of the lease of her property being No. 5, Baker-street.—To consider an application by Mrs. Rea for a renewal of tht lease of per premises, No. 10, Portland-street. The report was adopted. MR. ISAAC LEASE.—A LIVELY DISCUSSION. Councillor Salmon had given notice of motion as follows: — That the application of Mr. Isaac Hopkins for a renewal of the leases of Nos. 27 and 31, South-road, Aberystwyth, be granted upon the terms contained in the report of the Finance Committee dated 12th February, 1895. The following are the particulars, terms, and conditions mentioned in the said report, viz., as to No. 27, South Road, aforesaid:—Original grant, 1813; years unexpired, 18 scale, 7 rental, £10 with 15 per cent. off £8 10s.; fine, .£2 13s. 9d., commuted at £4 10s. 9d., £2 17s.: ground rent, 2s. 6d.: total, £2 19s. 6d. Conditions.-—New roof, nev windows, chimney stacks renewed, and front cemented. As to No." 31 South Road aforesaid :—Original grant, 1813 years unexpired, 18 scale, 7J; rental, £10 with £15 per cent. off, £8 10s. fine, £62 13s. 9d., commuted at £4 10s. 9d., .£2 17s.; ground rent, 2s. 6d.; total, 62 19s. 6d. Conditions. —New roof I at the back of house and chimney stack rebuilt. That for the purpose of dealing with and disposing of the said application at this meeting, all existing resolutions of the Council dealing with or pre- scribing the procedure of the Council or of the Finance Committee respectively relating or incident to the granting of leases or renewals of leases by the Corporatisn be, and the same are hereby rescinded so far only as the same relate or to apply to the said application. Councilor Williams on a point of "order" said as this matter had been referred to the Finance Com- mittee, was it in order that the Council should do anything until they received a recommendation from the committee. The Mayor ruled that it was perfectly in order. Alderman Palmer: This has been referred to the Finance Committee, was it in order that the Council should do anything until they received a recommendation from the committee ? The Mayor That is not a point of order. I have already ruled. It is perfectly in order for the Council to grant a lease as long as there is a notice: on the agenda. It is true it might be necessary to present this to the Finance Com- mittee for the sake of procedure, but in this case it is not necessary, because there were terms given before. Councillor Williams: Should not he move the cancelling of that before moving this. The Mayor: His resolution is perfectly in order as it is. Councillor Williams I accept your ruling. Councillor Salmon then moved the resolution as given above. He remarked that the application had been repeatedly before the Council, but there had been certain difficulties in the way. The Council, learning that Mr. Hopkins had a claim against them, naturally refused to give a renewal until he sent a written statement to the committee waiving all claims. That written statement been given, but at the last committee meeting the chairman ruled his motion out of order. Councillor Williams: Can you prove that I was not right ? Councillor Salmon: I was right. You put me in mind of President Kruger and Milner (laughter). Mr. Hopkins had not been treated according to the terms given by the Committee that that renewal would be granted if he sent a written statement. Councillor Williams: That it would be considered. Councillor Salmon: It came before the Com- mittee in the usual way; but Mr. Williams said. There's a letter here. I don't know if it is advisable to read it now. It's getting late." He (Mr. Salmon) did not know why the letter was not read. Mr. Williams said it was a new application. The majority of the Council said it was not, but Mr. Williams refused to put his resolution to the meeting. He hoped this would be granted to-day, and that all bitter feeling on the part of Mr. Williams, or any other member would be disposed of. They would not be treating Mr. Hopkins differently from anyone else. They would only be doing their duty as respresentatives of the ratepayers by granting the lease. Alderman Palmer said that he was not at the Council meeting, but when he read the account in the paper, he was surprised, because he thought it was the duty of a chairman to recommend the wishes of the majority of the Committee to the Council. Councillor Williams: Certainly not—not unless it is legal. Alderman Palmer said it would have been better if Mr. Williams had objected to the resolution of the Committee at the Council. When he (Mr. Palmer) had been chairman of a Committee, he always recommended the wishes of the majority, even when he differed from them. He was Chairman of the Finance Committee for one year. Towards the end of the year he brought in a recommendation that the lease of Mr. Gibson's property in Terrace Road should be granted to him. There were three for and three against. He gave his casting vote in favour of the recom- mendation. Mr. Williams objected, saying that he had no business as Chairman to send the recom- mendation to the Council. It should be left till another time. Councillor Williams Mr. Palmer wants now to blame me for what I have done. The Mayor: He is discussing your conduct as Chairman. Alderman Palmer: Mr. Williams proposed at the Council that the report should wait until an application had been made to the Local Government Board as to whether we could grant this lease, and the Council agreed, on Mr. Williams's recommenda- tion, that the lease should not be granted until the Council knew they had the right to grant it. Councillor Williams That is not the correct version. It shows you don't remember- Alderman Palmer, proceeding, said that at the end of the 12 months Mr. Williams was elected Chairman of the Committee. Gowswillor Williams Was that any grievance. ? Alderman. Palmer I didn't say so. Councillor Williams: You can have the chair now, if you like. Alderman Palmer: Mr. Williams, chairman of Committee, has not brought that question before the Council. Councillor Williams There has been no applica- tion. Alderman Palmer: Surely you ought to have brought forward the answer of the Local Govern- ment Board. Councillor Williams: You arc wrong. All the conditions ,iven Alderman Dough ton, rising to a point of order, said he did not see what this had to do with the question. Mr. Palmer was completely out of order. Councillor Williams: It is no parallel at all. Alderman Doughton (warmly) to Alderman Palmer Keep to the point, sir. We will be here all day The Mayor: Order, Captain Doughton Alderman Palmer (continuing) That Committee ought to have brought in some report to the Council. Surely it was not dead. They used to say in olden days that everything referred to the Works Committee was dead (laughter). He should have brought it forward. Whatever was referred to the Committee should have been brought for- ward. Councillor Williams It was never referred Alderman Palmer, passing on to Mr. Hopkins' lease, said that Mr. Williams should have brought forward the Committee's recommendation, instead of taking the ruling of the whole Committee, and say It is my law" Councillor Williams (warmly): No, I gave my reasons. I didn't say it was my law. I told them what the Council had done. Alderman Palmer: You told the majority of the Committee that they had no power to do anything. Councillor Williams: To do wrong. You are evading the whole point. Alderman Palmer: I am not. I say it was your duty as Chairman to bring in the wishes of the majority. Councillor Williams The Council had cancelled the leases they were my grounds; I maintained them. Alderman Palmer: You are not judge of the Council. Councillor Williams: The Town Clerk knows the law. The Mayor Order Councillor Pcake said the question of this lease ought to have been dealt with before. It was Mr. Hopkins' own fault that it had not been settled. Mr. Hopkins having waived his claim the lease should now be granted to him, unanimously. The property had been visited—there was not much difference between it now and 1895. He seconded the resolution. Councillor Doughton What I see in this matter is-I cant see what it's all about (laughter). There was not a single member against giving the lease. Councillor Williams: No. Councillor Doughton: But they were doing an irregular thing. Let the Committee do their duty. The Mayor The Chairman wont allow them. Councillor Williams: Let the premises be visited before the next meeting. I object to these unfair remarks. I Councillor Peake: I did not make any unfair remarks. Councillor Doughton We have not done such a thing as this before It is rushing it. Let us do the thing regularly and visit the premises. It will only take a fortnight, what harm can there be ? We arc stultifying ourselves. Councillor Salmon: This has been done in the regular order. Councillor Doughton No, Mr. Hopkins' lease has been cancelled. He must make a fresh applica- tion and the premises visited again. Why make an exception, were the people will say we are favouring a member of the Council. Let's have the fight after visiting the premises, and let's have a fight then if you want to fight (laughter.) Councillor Peake: We don't want a fight. Councillor Jenkins seconded the amendment. Alderman Peter Jones said they had been discussing a great many questions that appeared to him to be irrelevant to the subject matter before them. It would be well to look back to the state of things that existed when the application was made in the first instance for the renewal of the lease. On that occasion the Council desired to effect a great improvement in that particular part of the town, and Captain Doughton and himself were deputed to interview Mr. Hopkins to try to come to terms upon which they might be able to so alter his yard as not to cause any annoyance to to him as occupier of the property. Councillor Doughton: This has nothing to do with the case. The Mayor Yes, Alderman Jones is discussing the whole question. Councillor Williams was her? understood to say, It's all right as long as it's on your side." The Mayor: Is that a reference to me ? Councillor Williams No, to Mr. Jones. Alderman Jones, proceeding, said that they made a certain concession to Mr. Hopkins on consideration of giving them the yard to make the necessary improvement. Mr. Hopkins had carried into effect his part of the arrangement, therefore it became the Council's duty to carry theirs into effect, but circumstances arose-partly legal, partly financial. There was the question of the reversionary interest. That had been settled. Alderman Jones then ex- plained how it came about that Mr. Hopkins sent in a claim, and said, as this had been withdrawn, that cleared the ground, and placed the Council in the original position that they occupied in 1895, when Mr. Hopkins allowed them to effect the im- provements. Therefore he (Mr. Jones) thought it was the duty of the Council to grant the conditions. All the technical terms raised had been complied with. The Council at the last meeting gave terms identical with what they gave on the previous occasion. Mrs. James applied for the renewal of her lease some time ago; certain circumstances had arisen that varied that case. Councillor Williams: Her application was not cancelled by the Council. Alderman Jones That does not affect the posi tion. Please don't interrupt. Councillor Williams: You must allow me to correct you. Alderman Jones; I thank you for your help, then (laughter). I hope you will always thank me in the same way that I thank you. Councillor Williams: Without the sarcasm. Alderman Jones, continuing, said the Council agreed to the conditions previously given in the case of Mrs. James should be those in operation, and that the lease should date from the date that these conditions were given. Councillor Williams Mrs. James' was not one of the properties scheduled, so that there is no parallel between hers and Mr. Hopkins'. I expect you to act fairly towards me. Alderman Jones: I trust differences of opinion never will alter friendship (Hear, hear). The point is this-I contend the Council are not doing any- thing different in this case from what they did in Mrs. James' case. What was there to prevent the Council from reverting to the original conditiew in the case of Mr. Hopkins ? Councillor Williams here made a remark to which Alderman Jones retorted: I am afraid that owing to my obtuseness, I have not made myself intelligble. Councillor Williams: (to the Mayor). Is that remark in order or fair to me You told me my remarks to Mr. Palmer were uncalled for. I sup- pose its simply a bit of his sarcasm. Alderman Jones: I hope you will only judge me by my utterances. The Mayor: Kindly confine yourself to the point. Councillor Williams (to the Mayor) You allow Mr. Jones to say these things without calling him to order. The Mayor Mr. Jones, if you make any reflec- tion or innuendo you will withdraw it. I did not hear it myself. Alderman Jones By all means, sir. Alderman Doughton Let's proceed. The papers will sell well this week (laughter.) Alderman Jones continuing, described the terms in Mr. Hopkins' case as fair and reasonable, taking into consideration the circumstances when they were given. The ground rents then fixed would have to be paid from that time, and the condition in which the property was then would have to be put in that condition now by Mr. Hopkins, if there were any dilapidations. He (Mr. Jones) had thus been perfectly consistent all along, and he adhered to the opinion that he previously expressed. Councillor Williams said Mr. Jones omitted to say that when they were negotiating with Mr. Hopkins with regard to the improvement they did so entirely on the ground that they believed him to be the owner of the property. Alderman Doughton and Alderman Jones both laboured under the same delusion. (Councillor Doughton: Well, well, well and laughter.) With all Mr. Jones' genius, could he make a case out of this!-that Mr. Hopkins was entitled to terms which they gave him in the belief that he was the owner of the yard ? Mr. Hopkins at the time was only a tenant. Councillor Salmon I beg to differ. Councillor Williams (warmly): I know the history better than you a great deal. Councillor Salmon I know it as well as you. Councillor Williams asked if they would agree to pay £ 35 to Mr. Hopkins as compensation for depreciation in value if they did not believe he was the owner ? If there was any depreciation it was the owner, Miss Lewis, that would suffer, not Mr. Hopkins. As a part of this arrangement the Committee recommended the renewal of the lease of his two houses, on a rateable value of £ 10, but objection was taken to the basis of the renewal, and it was referred back for the Council, and a letter from Miss Lewis stating that Mr. Hopkins was only a tenant paying £ 3 rent was read. The moment that was read they all altered their position and ex- pressed surprise that they had been misled by some means or other. Nothing more was heard for twelve months. In 1895 the Finance Committee presented a report, leaving out every condition. except the bare terms and conditions, which were ultimately agreed to. Councillor Jones: Why was that done ? Simply because the improvement had been effected long- before that. Put the thing fairlv. Councillor Williams: I am. Councillor Jones: I know all about it. I was chairman of the Committee at the time. Councillor Williams: You may know some secrets. I don't want them. The Finance Com- mittee knowing that Mr. Hopkins was not the owner, left out all amounts Councillor Jones: I say no. Councillor Williams read Miss Lewis' letter. So many false statements, he said, had been made outside—miles of them—that it was right that the public should know exactly the position some had taken up in this matter. Mr Hopkins not being the owner coulct not ask for a penny. The Mayor: All the inconvenience was to the tenant, surely. Councillor Williams At P,3 a year This is one of the most glaring cases of unfairness to others— Alderman Palmer: It is not right to accuse the whole Council of acting unfairly. The Mayor: He has a perfect right to express an opinion. We must take things at their own value. Councillor Williams: Quite so, the same as you and Mr. Peter Jones (laughter). When the terms were given in 1894 and 1895, the rateable value was £ 14 it was reduced afterwards to Z12. Alderman Jones here whispered Oh, dear me! and Councillor Williams said: I know it is very hard for Mr. Jones. Alderman Jones (laughing) Comb your hair. Councillor Williams: I don't know about my hair, but I have not lost my head, as Mr. Jones has done before now (laughter)* The Mayor: Do proceed. Councillor Williams Then stop Mr. Jones. I say he lost his head (laughter). We have had too many of these remarks from Mr. Jones, Alderman Jones: Mr. Williams never makes them (laughter). Councillor Williams (warmly) I have some re- gard for other people's feelings. You have not. I Proceeding, ho said they took £10 in this case because they thought they were negotiating with Mr. Hopkins on the principle of give and take. In 1892, when the Finance Committee considered the matter for the first time, the rating was £ 8. The Committee agreed to £ 12 before the question of improvement came on, when the report was pres- ented, Mr. Hopkins objected, and said that mem- bers were getting an undue advantage. When, however, they thought he was the owner of the yard, they gave him terms on the basis of £10. Was it fair that they should now give practically a lease to him at half its value ? Was not Mr. Hop- kins' own house worth £17 to let ? Councillor Peake said these terms were given in 1895. after they knew Mr. Hopkins was not the owner. Councillor Williams contended that the applica- tion should be treated as a new one. If he was treated in the same way as others the fine on the house from last November ought to be E208. whereas on the paltry rateable value of Z8 10s. it was £150, so that the Council were giving to Mr. Hopkins P,50 over and above the value of his house. The public would have an opportunity of judging before long. He contended that Mr. Hopkins had no claim, which was only made in order to secure the old terms. After his ruling at the Committee meeting the members said we will have revenge on Mr. Williams, we will put it on the agenda," (No, no. and shame). The Town Clerk agreed that he was right in his ruling. The Town Clerk, on being questioned, said the Standing Order provided it was unnecessary to refer any matter to the Finance Committee if a notice was placed on the agenda. Councillor Williams said they could not put it on the agenda before cancelling the previous resolution (Alderman Jones: Amen). Such a thing as this had not hitherto been done in the history of the Council, and heI entered his strong protest. They thought they would have revenge on him. Councillor Doughton: Oh I dont believe that. I think better of them than that (laughter). Alderman Jones said Mr. Hopkins refused to take a single penny from the Corporation for carrying out the work in connection with the yard, but said the Council would be allowed to do the work themselves. Alderman Doughton confirmed Alderman Jones's version of what took place in 1894. Councillor Salmon, replying, said Mr Williams was not a great friend of Mr. Hopkins'. Councillor Williams: I am the best friend he's ever had. Councillor Salmon: I am judging you by your conduct. Councillor Williams: Speak the truth. Councillor Salmon: I am speaking the truth. Councillor Williams No, you're not. Councillor Salmon said when the assessment of the property was raised Mr. Williams was chair- man. Councillor Williams I knew no more about the raising of it than you, Mr. Mayor. I can't allow such a statement as that to go forth. Councillor Salmon: Being chairman of the Committee he, no doubt, advised them to give instructions- The Mayor: I must ask you to withdraw that. Mr. Williams denies that he had anything to do with it. Councillor Salmon withdrew the statement, and said he had been chairman, and knew how assess- ments were made (laughter). The statement that they were giving Mr. Hopkins L50 was most base and unjust. They were treating him worse than any other applicant. What they were going to do was honourable and a credit to the ratepayers, who looked to them to do their duty fairly. Councillor Williams I am quite willing to leave it to them. I have another amendment to move, That in the event of the Council granting the renewal, the assessment of the houses or the letting value shall be taken as a basis." This found no seconder. The amendment to Mr. Salmon's motion was then put. Four voted for it-viz., Councillors Jenkins, Williams, R. Doughton, and James. The others voted against, Alderman Doughton abstaining. On the resolution being put, it was carried. Councillors Williams, Jenkins, R. Doughton voting against, and Alderman Doughton and Councillor James abstaining. Alderman Jones moved that the lease date from the 12th November, 1894. Carried. The report of the Finance Committee was then again considered. Alderman Jones said he would have no objection to the report if the words after fresh application Were deleted. He moved an amendment to that effect. As a record it was valueless, because it did not give both sides. Alderman Palmer seconded, and in sitttng down exclaimed, It's a case of absolute monarchy." Councillor Williams: I am not in favour of it. You can mangle it as ranch as you like. The amendment was carried by 8 to 3. t Councillor Williams accused Alderman Jones of -having taken the course he had through antipathy to him. Alderman Jones He says I have taken this ob- [ jectron ow personal grounds to him. I Councillor Williams: I believe it. Alderman Jones: I am not responsible for his belief, but I am responsible for my own conduct, and I repudiate most emphatically that I am imbued with the spirit that ire im"t." to me. The Council then rose.

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LAMPETER.