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HAY CHURCH DEFENCEJ MEETING.

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HAY CHURCH DEFENCE J MEETING. Apt Illustrations. On Tuesday evening, the 31st ult., a Church Defence meeting was held at the Parish Hall. Hay, when an address was given by Mr Pugsley, of Cardiff. Colonel R. D. Garnons Williams was in the chair, and he was supported by the Vicar of Hay. The Chairman, in introducing the speaker, said he bad hoped that the time would have come when there was no longer any need to defend themselves. Demonstrat ons had been held throughout the country and they bad been attended by large numbers of people, who were most enthusiastic in their pretest against the Dise&tablisbment and Disendowment Bill now before Parliament, and bad shown that there was no longer any case for it. But the Government still continued to say that they had tt- e country at their back. He alluded to the 15,000 Nonconformists of the Diocese of St. Asaph who had signed a petition against the bill, and to the fact that a similar thing was being done by Nonconformists in the rest of Wales, which showed conclusively that those Nonconformists who put their religion before their politics did not want the Church to be disendowed. (Applause.) Notwith- tanding the large amount of work needed in other direc- tions, yet they must go on protesting. The Chairman, in conclusion, explained that the Rev. Connop Pr ce, of Caerphilly, was to have been the speaker, but he was unable to come, and they were fortunate in having Mr Pugsley, of Cardiff, to take his place. (Applause.) Mr Pugsley, who was warmly received, said the Government had no right morally or politically in going on with the Welsh Church Bill. It was wrong for them to claim that they had a mandate from the people when only eight Liberal candidates in Wales and four in England mentioned the matter, and then only by refer- ring to religious equality, which was what they all wanted. Years ago when Sir Henry Campbsll-Bannerman was pressed by political Nonconformists to take the matter up, he told them that they had no authenticated evidence as to the relative position cf Church and Chapel in Wales, and so he called into being a tribunal which was to weigh the evidence on both sides. The Church Commission was appointed. That Commission, as they all knew, did not justify the claim for the bill, but in their breakneck hurry to spoliate the Church the Government introduced their measure before the Commission had finished sitting. The report consisted of eight volumes and seven were published subse quent to the last general election, and so the people had not the material before them when called upon to decide. That report showed that instead of the Church being a declining power, it was the most progressive religious body in Wales. Supporters of the bill declared that the Welsh people were naturally religious; they why did they want to prevent the people from hearing God's word ? If the bill became law there were a large number of parishes which would be left without a resident minister. A large number would be robbed of the only means of being able to call upon the ministra- tions of a minister of the gospel. Now the people had the right to call on the Vicar of the parish in the hour of need. Then with regard -to dismemberment, Nonconformists did not want to be divided from their English brethren, then why did they want Church people in Wales to be so divided ? The Free Church Council were largely responsible for pushing forward the agitation They said that the Welsh were a nation and had a right to deeide for them- selves, but strange to say there was no Welsh Federation of that Council. It was once suggested, but it was said that it would tend to weakness. If unity was strength to them so it was to the Church of England. A great deal of what Mr McKenna bad said in the House of Commons had been refuted there and in the country. Some cf them would remember the figures be gave in respect of Nonconformist places of worship in Cardiff, when he actually counted every room in the Nonconformist buildings, and referred to them as separate places of worship. The speaker went on to say that there was no enthusiasm for the bill, otherwise its promoters would put matters to the test. Why did they not take a poll of the people ? The fact was that they knew they had not the people behind them. "A burnt child dreaded the fire." When in power in 1895 the Liberals introduced a Disestablishment and Disendownment Bill, and when a general election was fought on that measure they were turned ignominously out of office and were in the wilderness for ten years. The glamour of office and the 1400 a year was too much for them now. Mr Pugsley spoke most enthusiastic. ally of the great success of the South Wales Nonconformist petition against the bill, and gave instances to show how determined Nonconformists were in the matter. Dis- endowment, he went on to say, was not for the people's welfare. In St. John's parish, Cardiff, they would be left with 127 a year out of an endowment of 1300. They kept four curates to assist the Vicar, and by the Free Will Offering scheme hoped to raise enough money to have an additional curate at a salary of JE140. They were accustomed to give about JE60 to the Cardiff Hospital and 450 to Foreign Missions. These resources were not unlimited and they could not be deprived of their endowments and -make it up immediately. They muat keep the parish going and they would be unable to give their 160 to the Cardiff Hospital, so that by the Government taking away the endowments they were in reality robbing the poor. As with the £ 60 to Cardiff Hospital so with the S50 to Foreign Missions. The effect, as they would see, was most far-reaching. They in Cardiff had bad their endowment for 300 years and they should be left in lawful possession. People had preached against the tithe so often that they had come to look upon it as a tax. If it was a tax why did not the Government remove it? It was not a tax, and the Govern. ment were going to divert it from religious to secular purposes; but only that tithe held by the Church. What about the tithe held by laymen? Why did they not try to take that ? Because they knew they dare not, and Church. people must show that they dare not. It had been stated that the Welsh Church Bill was in the grip of the machine and was bound to succeed. The Bishop of London bad said in reply that God could smash the machine. If Nonconformists thought Church people were going to lie down under defeat they would be mistaken. They must keep their armour bright and if their opponent should succeed in placing the bill on the Statute Book they must see that it did not remain there long. (Applause.) Mr H. Morris proposed a vote of thanks to the speaker for his inspiring and encouraging address, and to Colonel Garoons Williams for presiding. In doing so he said that much was being said against the disendowment proposals ia the bill owing to the prominence given to them by their Nonconformist fritnds, who were so numerously signing the petition, but they should take care not to weaken in their protest against Disestablishment. Some people argued that Disestablishment would benefit the Church in many ways, but he did not think so. Whether it would or not there was no doubt in his mind that it would be a dire ca amity to the country. The Vicar seconded the vote cf thanks and complimented the speaker on his enthusiastic address, which would encourage them to con- tinue ia their efforts against '.be bill. It w 1 S very good of Mr Pugsley to take Mr Connop Price's place at -so &hort a notice, and he assured him that they were most grateful.

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