The Aberystwyth Times Cardiganshire Chronicle and Merionethshire News

i. We must not destroy them we must not expose them 1 and we must support them. We must even have them vaccinated. And all in order to secure their physical safety. Is it not a thousand times more important that we should be compelled to attend to their mental and moral requirements, and give them the training that may prove most likely to prevent them becoming pests to ( society, and to secure from them the greatest possible good to the community at large ? When we ask such a j question, it brings home at once to our hearts the con- viction that we ought to make school attendance upon every child compulsory. All this would have been cruel if the schools were not free. Many parents could plead poverty, and justly, as a reason why they could not pay for their children's school- ing. But when the schools are free for all, that plea can no longer be sustained. And when the friends of education, who at present have so much to do in order to maintain schools, have that burden taken from their shoulders by the State, I have no doubt but that they will feel very glad to direct their efforts then towards supplying the poorest children with clothes, &c., in order to enable them fully to avail themselves of the advantages within their each. But there is,.another important correlative to com- pulsory attendance, namely, that the education given in the Government and rate schools should not be of a ro i proselytizing character; should be undenominational. All honour to a man like Archdeacon Sandford for such E words as these :—" Well, then, to have compulsory education you must have a rate, and to have a rate you must have-I will not call it secular education, for I abhor the term, and I do not like the phrase adopted in this report, unsectarian education;' I very much prefer the term 'undenominational education.' It is quite clear that in a country like our own, with our various deno- minational churches, and with our many differences in point of religion, it will be quite impossible to have an education supported by rate unless you have the teaching undenominational." And not less clear and decisive are the words of Canon Kingsley, and many other leading ministers of the Established Church. With us they despair of a national system of education without re- moving at once and for ever this stone of stumbling and rock of offence," the religious difficulty, out of the way. We can never give any reasonable answer to the demand for denominational education on the part of the Catholic priests in Ireland, while we maintain in England a similar system ourselves. It is also perfectly futile to think of imposing any longer upon the intelligence of the kingdom by applying the honoured words, religious teaching," to the inculcation of the dogmas of a sect. Surely there is ample scope for profitable teaching in elementary schools without trenching upon any of the difficult questions on which speculative theologians disagree ? I have no doubt but that we shall all be unanimous in this conference, and that our countrymen outside who watch ,our deliberations will also be perfectly unanimous, that the League is right in demanding that our forthcoming national system of education should be undenominational. Thus far I am happy to find that I most heartily agree with the principles set down by the League as indispensable •to such a system of education as the people of this kingdom can receive. I am sorry, however, to say that there are -things which have caused me some anxiety in the heads -of a Bill" put forth by the League, and have prevented me hitherto from giving it my adhesion. 1. I think that it would be very unadvisable for the School Board to have power to grant the use of school- rooms -out of school hours for the giving of religious in- struction." And that for two or three reasons :-l. Such instruction must needs be exceedingly perfunctory. 2. .It would be impossible in very many neighbourhoods to maintain against the strong the proviso, "that no undue preference be given to one or more sects, to the exclusion of others." 3. The thing would give room to and tend to perpetuate unseemly suspicions and jealousies; and 4, I may add that all denominations have already, or may have, ample opportunities to teach religion to the children without, as denominations, approaching the school at all. 2. I object to the School Board having power to forbid that the Bible should be read, except immediately before the commencement or immediately after the ordinary school business." I believe that it would be better to permit the use of the Bible in school during the ordinary school hours, restricting the teacher to moral comments alone. Our cousins in America experience no inconvenience from this, and they are as keenly alive as we are to their denominational prerogatives. At any rate, I believe, with Mr Miall, that this matter may be safely left to the dis- cretion of the managers. I would rather leave the Bible eut altogether than have it read, as by stealth, when the business of the school is over, and when the children are all eager to run away. 3. With regard to existing schools, there is a question of minor importance suggesting itself—What use would the trustees or managers of existing schools be expected to make of the money paid on their being purchased by the School Board? I may add, with reference to existing schools, that I have no manner of confidence in the con- science clause principle referred to in connection with the arrangement proposed to be made by the School Board on sending certain children to existing denominational schools. I confess it seems needless to build new schools where there is sufficient school accommodation already but then, when we are building up anew the structure of our nation- al education, it were a great pity for us to leave any part of the country in a position to be tormented again by the annoyance that as a kingdom we seem so determined to remove out of the way. I think that it would be perfectly just for the government, after passing the Education Bill, sternly to refuse a penny to any school that does not assume the broad, national, undenominational platform. If gentlemen are so welded to their dogmas that they cannot entrust the teaching to children of the elements of education, and all that may qualify them to become in- telligent and virtuous citizens, without having their pre- cious dogmas instilled continually into their minds, -why let those gentlemen have the additional luxury of paying for their dogmatic teaching, and let all thfe rated and government grants goto support such schools as are willing to comply with a law so just as we are now contemplating. I hope to derive additional light on these matters in this conference. I earnestly trust that such a measure of education may be obtained as shall meet our wants, and be the beginning of a new era in the history of our coun- try. I read with unmingled satisfaction the reference made to this matter by Mr Forster in the speech he de- livered the other evening in Bradford. He seems to feel very confident that the measure which he has to propose will command the assent of the kingdom generally. It will not do that without being at least as thorough going, if not more so, than that proposed by the League. I was very glad to find that he made so light of the religious difficulty, and assured us it was no bugbear to him. He was also pretty confident when Mr Gladstone and Mr Bright had driven the Irish Land Bill omnibus through Temple Bar, that Earl de Grey and himself would also be able to get the Education omnibus through immediately after, and that in the course of the coming session. I have dwelt mainly throughout this paper on primary education in its bearing upon the children of the poor. I am not without hopes that Mr Forster will make provision in his Bill for giving a chance to those that excel in the primary schools to rise and avail themselves of the advan- tages of higher schools, and even proceed to the univer- sities. I remember he spoke of something of the kind in Liverpool as being his ideal of a system of education that ought to be obtained in a country like this. In America and in several of the Continental states a system of the- kind has long been in operation, and we in this country have in consequence the mortification of being eclijJsed in many respects by the people of those countries. And it would be easy to make our educational machinery as per- fect as it is or can be anywhere. We have enormous resources in the property which has been given from time to time for the promotion of education, but which has been so sadly misapplied. This ought to be utilised for the benefit of the nation. And when a satisfactory system has been established there is no doubt but that many wealthy persons would again gladly contribute to its funds, and so increase continually its efficiency. And we are not troubled so much with the ignorant impatience of taxa. tion" but that large sums may also be raised by means of rates and taxes for the same purpose. This paper was followed by one read by the Rev. S. Johnstone, Merthyr, May compulsory power be granted to the State, and may children be compelled under any circumstances to attend denominational schools?" The next paper was read by the Rev. Dr Davies, Baptist College, Haverfordwest, on "A national system of education being adopted, how best to provide adequately for the religious education of the young." In the absence of Dr Wnf. Roberts, of Nevin, who was put down to read the next paper, How to deal with ex- isting State-aid schools, equitably to the State and to the managers of such schools," A brief paper bearing upon the general system of edu- Ir cation, was read by Mr John Jenkins, Llanidloes, con- sisting of extracts from a book on education, of which that gentleman is the author-" Jenkins on Education, its nature, import, and necessity;" Longmans, 1848. The next paper was read by Mr PETER MOSTYN WILLIAMS, of Liverpool, on THB STOTBM OF NATIONAL EDUCATION WHICH WILL FAIRLY MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PRINCIPALITY. In his paper Mr WILLIAMS contended that, in speaking of the requirements of the Principality, care should be taken to keep in view the peculiar features of the country, and the exceptional position of its inhabitants. General Statistics were misleading, even when applied to the state of education in the country at large, and great difference of opinion prevailed amongst the advocates of the various Schemes promulgated as to the success or otherwise of the present system, and vhe real amount of educational desti- tution. He thought it would not be wise for education- alists in this part of the country to commit themselves to either the Birmingham League or to the Manchester Union, or even to any compromise between these antagon- istic parties, until they had examined very minutely the real state of the question at issue in all its bearings, and the claim they have for exceptional treatment on the part of the legislature. It was most difficult to convince their rulers that the Welsh were, to all intents and purposes, a distinct and separate people, obedient to the laws, and 4oyal to the crown, but still in language, in tradition, in habit, and in religion living as isolated from the rest of the country as if they were removed a thousand miles Hway. The Welsh were divided into two distinct sections; the Welsh and the English, the poor and the rich, the dis- inter and the churchman. With very few exceptions, the distinction held good in each of these divisions. The Welshman, as a rule, was a dissenter and a poor man; the Englishman in Wales, as a rule, was a churchman and a comparatively rich man. Nine-tenths of the nation were decidedly Welsh, and nearly that number were dissenters. Ilie minority, however, were the possessors of the soil, the wealth and the power, and they were chiefly members of the Church of England. And in what state did they find the education of the country ? From the Commis- sioners' Report of 1861, the proportion of scholars in publicweek-day schools in |Wales to the population in *658, was two per cent, lower in Wales than iu the whole of the country. Since then a great improvement had taken place, and it was probable that, with few exceptions, the Welsh were now on a par with the more favoured parts of the country. Whatever destitution existed in England, they might state generally that the same existed in Wales. Still the Welsh, fortunately, could not make use of the same argument for increasing the means of education as the English did. The Welsh could not say that a large number of their children were perishing for want of knowledge, that their prisons were filled, that vagrancy and pauperism were on the increase, that the masses were indifferent to religion, and that scepticism was making rapid strides amongst the people. They had no need of multiplying their schools, and bringing the means of knowledge within the reach of the poor, for the purpose of diminishing crime, or improving the moral tone of the nation. Happily they had found more ¡ effective means for accomplishing these objects in their Sunday schools and places of worship. The Sunday school members in Wales amounted to one-third of the entire population, as against one-eighth of the population in England. The attendance at divine worship in 1851 amounted to 6412 per cent. of the population, while in England it scarcely reached 35 per cent. It was a notorious fact that the National Schools had failed in the Princi- pality. They had failed in the primary object of mak- ing dissenters churchmen, and also in imparting real and distinctive knowledge to the people. He recommended the conversion of all existing public schools of an element- ary kind into one system of undenominational schools, supported by government grants, from which all distinct- ive religious teaching should be excluded, but into which the Bible should be admitted as a text book. The entire abolition of the conscience clause in the Church of Eng- land schools, and the transfer of the management to com- mittees of representative men. The universal adoption of the compulsory system, the erection of new schools in destitute parishes by Government; these schools to be afterwards maintained by varying Government grants: the admission to be free to all schools partly supported by local rates. High class schools, as recommended by the School Inquiry Commission, to be provided on conditions adapted to the peculiar condition of Wales. Local and district committees to be appointed, and a School Board for the registrar's division of Monmouthshire and Wales, such Board to be designated the provincial authority. When this was done, they would find that justice had been done to Wales, and he was confident that with a fair field and no favour her sons and daughters were quite as capable as those of any other nation to take their due share of their country's responsibilities, and to contribute their fair proportion towards their country's fame. Mr Solly and Mr Lloyd Jones, who attended as a depu- tation from the National Education League, explained the objects which the League had in view, and the sitting closed shortly after three o'clock, the vote of thanks to the readers of the several papers being moved by the Rev. W. Griffiths, seconded by the Rev. J. Kennedy, and supported by the Rev. T. J. Wheldon, B.A. Mr John Matthews, Mayor of Aberystwyth, moved a vote of thanks to the chairman, and Mr Love Jones-Parry having replied, the conference broke up. The attendance during the day included Love Jones-Parry, M.P., Mr Richard Davies, M.P., the Rev. L. Edwards, D.D., Bala, Dr Thomas Davies, Principal of the Baptist College, Haverfordwest, Professor Morgan, Carmarthen, -Rev. Alfred Tilly, Cardiff, Rev. Dr Thos. Rees, Swansea, Mr Charles W. Jones, Merthyr, Rev. David Evans, M.A., Dolgelley, Rev. John Griffith, rector of Merthyr Tydfil, Rev. E. Evans, Carnarvon, Rev. W. Walker Jebb, Birmingham, Rev. W. Ambrose, Port- madoc, Rev. J. Lewis, Henllan, Rev. E. Morgan, Dyffryn, Rev. A. Francis, Rhyl, Mr John Jenkins, M.A., The Temple, London, Mr Thomas Williams, Goitre, Merthyr, Rev. Owen Thomas, Liverpool, Rev. John Davies, Cardiff, Mr Peter Mostyn Williams, Liverpool, Rev. James Sully, M.A., the College, Pontypool, Rev. Evan Jones, Corris, Mr John Thomas, Castle House, Pembroke, Rev. J. R. Roberts, Aberhosan, Mr Pell, Aberystwyth, Mr J. Pryce Jones, Grove Park Schools, Wrexham, Mr John Jenkins, solicitor, Llanidloes, Rev. John Jones, Normal College, Banvor, Rev. D. Rowland, principal of the Normal College, Bangor, Rev. Richard Jones, Glanmorfa, Taliesin, Rev. Wm. Williams, Borth, Rev. John Peters, Bala, Rev. David Evans, Lampeter, Rev. John Griffiths, Glantaf, Mr William Lloyd, Holy- head, Rev. Owen Evans, Llanbrynmair, Rev. Josiah Jones, Machynlleth, Mr Edmund Cleaton, Llanidloes, Rev. Thomas Edwards, Cwmystyth, Rev. R. Morgan, Glyn, Neath, Rev. Lewis James, Narberth, Rev. W. Evans, Aberayron, Rev. John A. Morris, Cefnmawr, Rev. Joseph Evans, Talybont, Mr William Evans, Menai Bridge, Dr Pughe, Aberdovey, Mr J. Hughes Jones, Aberdovey, Rev. John Owen, Llangefni, Rev. James Donne, Llangefni, Rev. Isaac Jones, Penrhyncoch, Rev. John Jones, Rhydymaen, Rev. E. M. Jenkins, Newtown, Rev. Samuel Owen, Tanygrisiau, Festiniog, Mr J. G. Williams, Glo'ster Hall, Rev. D. Ll. Jenkins, Trefgarn, Rev. John Jones, Saron, Llanbadarn, Rev. David Jones, Llanrhystyd, Rev. William Gibbon, Capel Isaac, Llan- dilo, Rev. Thomas Davies, Llanelly, Rev. Thomas Johns, Llanelly, Rev. G. H. Roberts, Haverfordwest, Rev. Jas. Jenkins, Newport, Mr E. Jones, B.A., Hibernian Schools, Liverpool, Rev. T. Jones, Welsh Presbyterian Missionary, Mr Richard Mills, Mayor of Llanidloes, Rev. Owen Davies, Llangollen, Mr Thomas Gee, Denbigh, Mr Lloyd Jones, Mr Solly, deputation from the National Education League, Mr T. F. Roberts, Llanidloes, Rev. T. J. Wheldon, B.A., Newtown, Rev. David Evans, New- port, Rev. Joseph Waite, B.A., Cardiff, Rev. Thomas Edwards, Penllwyn, Rev. Thomas Charles Edwards, M.A., Liverpool, Mr Hugh Pugh, banker, Pwllheli, Rev. John Owen, Penrhyndeudraeth, Mr R. Cory, jun., Cardiff, Rev. David Evans, M.A., Merthyr, Rev. R. Lumley, Liverpool, Rev. Samuel Evans, St. Clears, Mr David Williams, inspector of schools, Llanelly, Rev. R. J. Williams, Brecon, Rev. Noah Thomas, Cardiff, Rev. F. S. Johnstone, Merthyr, Mr John Simons, Merthyr, Mr John Matthews, Mayor of Aberystwyth, Mr W. H. Thomas, solicitor, Aberystwyth, Rev. J. Foulkes Jones, B.A., Machynlleth, Rev. Kilsby Jones, Rev. Griffith Davies, Aberystwyth, Mr Richard Williams, Newtown, Mr Evan Newall, Towyn, Mr J. Rbydwen Jones, Rhyl, Rev. S. Kennedy, Newport, &c. EVENING MEETING, The conference resumed its sitting at five o'clock, under the presidency of Mr Richard Davies, M. P. for Angle- sea. There was a very numerous attendance, and towards the close of the meeting the large room was crowded. The CHAIRMAN, in opening the proceedings, said that he had much pleasure in noticing that the conference had been so largely attended, and also in listening to the ex- cellent papers which had been read during the morning sitting. Various opinions were expressed in the papers, and it was obvious that the meeting would not be unani- mous but divided in opinion, for on the present occasion it was only just and proper that all opinions bearing upon the important question of education should be permitted to have thorough, full, and clear expression, through the several speakers who would address the meeting upon the several re- solutions which would be laid before them. They invited and wished that every person who desired it should express his opinion upon the papers which had been read that morn- ing, and also upon the subject-matter embodied in the series of resolutions. That the great subject of national education was making such rapid progress and headway must be a source of great comfort to all. (Hear, heap.) Personally he regretted that the Government was going to*bring in a Bill, as he thought the subject well'claimed another year of consideration and discussion, so that the friends of education might know exactly what they wanted. He feared that the Bill would be merely of a passing character, but under the circumstances they must deal with it in the best way they could. A great many opinions would be expressed by the numerous speakers who were set down to address the meeting upon the resolu- tions, so that he would not trouble them with many pre- liminary remarks. In consequence of the great quantity of work which had to be got through that evening, the committee had thought it desirable that each speaker should be limited to ten minutes. He trusted that the meeting would treat all that spoke in a proper spirit and in a fair manner, and shew nothing but the passing signs of approval or disapprobation, and then allow the speaker to proceed with his remarks. With respect to the National Schools in Wales, although they were not what they should be, still they ought to be very much obliged and thankful for the assistance which Wales had received from the National Schools, and he, for one, was under great obligations for the assistance which be had received from the education given to him by a National School. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that nothing would be said by the speakers which they would wish they had left unsaid, and that the conference would proceed in an expeditious and orderly manner. (Applause.) The Rev. Professor MORGAN moved the first resolution That it is the conviction of this conference, that any system of national education, fully meeting the require- ments of Wales, must be free, secular, unsectarian, and compulsory." In moving the resolution he said, that in tracing the history of the education of the people, they might commence with the period when it was asked whether the common people were capable of receiving education. That question was decided in favour of the people, and then came the second question, whether, admitting that the common people were capable of re- ceiving education, such education would be of service to the lower orders of the people? That question, too, was decided in favour of the people, and then came the question who was to pay for such instruction, and this was answered by voluntary grants and by State aid. They had now arrived at what should be taught— what should be the nature of the instruction to be given. He knew of no better method to decide the question, than to put forward the case of his own children as an example. They had a physical constitution, a mental constitution, and a moral constitution, and they required training in all these parts the better the physical, the better the moral and the better the mental constitution. (Hear, hear.) Then came the question, to whom was the culture of his children to be entrusted—was he to call in one person, or select a person for the culture of each part ? The medical man said, I will take care of the physical the school- master volunteered to take charge of the mental; and the minister said, I will take care of the moral nature." In deciding the matter he must consult his own pocket, and he must at the same time endeavour to obtain efficiency. As regarded education, he thought that the first thing they must aim at was a scheme of national education, and divide the labour. As regarded unsectarian education, they must all allow that sectarianism was carried out enough in Wales-(hear, hear) — and therefore he thought that children should not, in their early associations, be brought into contact with anything but an unsectarian system of education. Error did not deserve State aid, and the truth did not require it. (Hear, hear.) Leave reli- gious training where our Master left it—voluntary. (Hear, hear.) Her Majesty could point to no part of her kingdom in which she had such loyal, loving subjects as amongst the Welsh nonconformists, and they, having been silent too long, were determined to be no longer silent. A voice would go out from the meeting, and sounding in the hills and valleys of Wales, would be re-echoed by the mountains, and the cry, "Justice to Wales," must be i heard, not only in the Principality, but, crossing the Severn, in England, and in the House of Commons. (Applause.) The Rev. DAVID WILLIAMS (Newport), in seconding the resolution, said that a system of education, to be national in its character, must be unsectarian, and also free. The resolution which had been proposed had two points to which opposition would probably be offered by some persons. The first point was the compulsory char- acter of the system of education which they advocated. Many persons held that there should be no compulsory measure in connection with education; that parents should not be compelled to send their children to school. As regarded the measure being compulsory, they had allowed Government to pass measures of a compulsory character, and surely they were justified in pleading for the same principle to be introduced into the educational system of the country. Vaccination was enforced by law, and if parents were compelled by law to attend to the bodies of their children, to feed and clothe them, why should not Government see that the children should be taught as well as clothed? (Hear, hear.) The children within the walls of a union were clothed, and those who were inside the gaols, and it seemed strange that whilst Government was empowered to educate those children in gaols, work- houses, and industrial institutions, they had no power to see to the education and instruction of those who were outside. Would it not be preferable to educate children outside the gaol, and so prevent the possibility of their being reduced to seek an education within the prison walls ? (Hear, hear.) Even the powers of compulsion possessed and used already by the Government, extended to the old maids of the country, for they were compelled to state their agos-(Iaughter)-and surely no real prac- tical opposition could be made to the enforcement of a compulsory system of education throughout the country. The second point in the resolution to which exception would probably be taken, and upon which great discussion would arise, and great diversity of opinion, of necessity, manifest itself, was as to the secular character of a system of compulsory national education. Many were anxious that the Bible should be introduced into the schools. (Hear, hear.) They all agreed that sectarianism should not be taught, that the system should be completely un- sectarian in its character; but many were of opinion that the Bible should not be excluded from the schools. It seemed to him that in the first place they should object to the introduction of the Bible in their schools, as a matter of consistency, that the State should not interfere- that it was no business of the State to teach re- ligion. (Hear, hear.) As nonconformists they had always been opposed to that kind of State interference, and if they objected, as they did and always had to the State teaching religion in their chapels, how could they allow the State to teach it in their schools. ("Hear, hear," and applause.) It was just the same to endow the schools for such teach- ing, as to support the minister by State funds. As nonconformists they could not allow religion to be taught in the schools. If the Bible was to be introduced, the difficulties then arising would be so numerous and so over- whelming that he thought it would be better to avoid these difficulties, even at the expense of the little good which might accrue by the introduction of the Holy Book. What version of the Scriptures would they introduce ? the authorized or the Douay version? Which of the texts would they have? They would have Jews and Catholics as well as Christians to be brought up in the schools, and whilst the Catholic objected to the Protestant version of the Bible, the Jew objected to the Testament, and if they introduced the New Testament, they would at once tread upon the conscience of the Jew. Then again the children of atheists, of sceptics, would ffave a place in their schools, and they had no right to encroach upon the views of the parents. Their conscience and moral feeling should be respected as well as those of other men and creeds. (Hear, hear.) Other difficulties presented themselves. If they had the Bible, would they use it as a common class book ? Many of them knew what class books were, many had been taught the Bible as a class book, and they hated it. On the other hand it was contended that the Bible should be introduced for the purposes of teaching ancient geography, and the history of the Jews, but was it not possible to have the History of the Jews and the principles of ancient geography written as well as the Grecian and Roman History? Books could at once be provided to meet any difficulty of that kind. The teaching of religion apart from religious zeal and conviction had, he was convinced, done more harm thafngood. (Hear, hear.) Did they complain of the disbelief of the people in the word of God! No, what they found cause to complain about was, the religious in- difference which was manifest amongst the people, a state of things which had been brought about by the fact that religion had been taught to children in days of their youth without zeal, earnestness, and conviction by those who had been engaged in the work. (Hear, hear.) As long as religion was taught in that form, the evil would be greater than the good which could be attained. They had other intruments far better calculated to secure that end than their ischoolmasters, in the large and increasing staff of Sunday School teachers, whose intelligence and aptitude for the work rivalled their [zeal and earnestness. (Applause.) When it was known that the religious teach- ing of the young was left in the hands of the ministers of the Christian Church—that the teaching in the day schools was purely secular-then the Christian Church would be endowed afresh with zeal and earnestness to carry out her great work, and probably a higher standard of morality would be given to the whole country. (Applause.) Mr GEE, of Denbigh, in supporting the resolution, said that about a million of pence were paid by the school children of the country, and he thought that there would be some grumbling at the enforcement of rates to make up this million of pence, which was, at present, contributed by the children. The people were heavily burdened with rates, and a great outcry was made about increased, taxa- tion. The fact that a new local rate would have to be im- posed, in order to carry out the system of a free education, should be taken into consideration, and they should pause and carefully look into the question before they went and declared in favour of that system. A free system of education, he thought, would cause the father to lose that interest in the education of his child, which he felt when he directly paid for it, and doubtless apathy might be manifested by the child. If the scheme which was brought forward by Mr Forster was a satisfactory scheme, he was prepared to support it, but he thought that a pause should be made, and mature deliberation take place before taking a "leap in the da.k" in connection with a question of such vital importance as the education of the people. The question of compulsory education was a second matter, which presented, some difficulties. to his mind and whilst he agreed that the education should be- com- pulsory, he inclined rather to the theory of indirect compulsion rather than to direct compulsion. Would it not be derogatory to the people to have the policeman prying about their houses to see whether their children had been educated ? (Hear, hear.) Then, education being directly compulsory, it must be enforced through the pains and penalties of the law—by fines and imprisonmentand when a person was sent to gaol, there remained always one black spot upon his character. If they could estab- lish, a system of indirect compulsory education, great advantages must result. The Manchester, scheme deserved their attention, and there were some points in the Bir- mingham Bill which were worthy their support and could they not merge the better parts of the two sehemes into one great scheme, which would meet the views of all parties ? ('Hear, hear.) What he meant by indirect com- pulsion might be illustrated by one or two examples. He would have it as a condition laid down that no farmer should employ a boy unless he had passed an examination of some standard, possessed a certificate showing that he had passed such an examination, and, that he knew something of reading, writing, and arithmetic. -Ori make this con- dition general in all grades and trades— don't let a man marry unless he could produce some .such certificate. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) Then came the question of secular education, whether the system of education should contain a religious element—whether Government shonld provide an education for the people which contained religious teaching. In this he held with the Birmingham League, that the education should be secular "until the heads of the different denominations throughout the country should agree upon some definite system. All that Government had to do was to educate the people to the knowledge of the responsibility which they owed as subjects of the Government; but,, until the heads of the several denominations could agree upon some scheme— and he was sure that they never would, but there was something gained1 by throwing that responsibility upon the religious community—let every child stand on a per- fect equality with his fellows in the schools of the country, and let every child have a good, sound, practical educa- tion placed within his reach. (Applause.) The Rev. THOMAS DAVIES, Llanelly, expressed himself averse to the term unsectarian, as being a most offensive., invidious, and detestable term. The term itself implied that they were going to teach religion. There was no. sectarianism in algebra, arithmetic, or geometry, tift(l, as long as religion was taught in any day school, thefgivoiffl always have sectarianism. (Hear, hear.) As friends of education, let them put on a bold front, and remove the question from the debatable ground of sects, which was already covered with infallibility, crossings, sprinklings, and opinions and formulae of every kind. He fully sym- pathized with compulsory education, as a necessary evil- (laughter)—and if the nasty term "unsectarian" were omitted, he would heartily support the resolution. (Ap- plause.) Mr J. JENKINS, M.A. (London), congratulated the con- ference upon its numbers, and expressed his gratification that the conference had been convened, for, knowing their antecedents, he felt that no people had a greater interest in the final solution of the great question of the age than the nonconformists of Wales. It was most proper that through this conference they should pronounce a clear, definite opinion upon the subject. They enjoyed a privi- lege and advantage of which their Birmingham friends could not boast, in having twenty yerrs back, in South Wales, discussed fully every point now put forward by the Birmingham League. There, meeting after meeting was held, and a unanimous opinion pronounced that the State limit of interference or action upon the subject of education should be confined to peculiarly secular educa- tion. (Hear, hear.) Thus they could now speak definitely and with authority upon the question, from the ex- perience which they had gained in years gone by. With the resolution he heartily concurred, with the exception of one little word, which he wished to see expressed in a more modified manner. His experience as an individual who had been through every town in Wales, and had visited hundreds of schools purely as a labour of love, had assisted in strengthening the conviction that secular instruction was the only principle which the people could or should accept from the Government. ("Hear, hear," and applause.) In the matter of legislation the Govern- ment had no right to look to anything but to State re- i sponsibilities, to raise the individual for the good of the j State. He moved, as an amendment, that the words "if i necessary be inserted before compulsory." The Rev. Dr. REES, Swansea, seconded the amend- inent. 1 Mr LLOYD JONES remarked that the persons who had i irawn up the resolutions which were to be submitted to < the meeting would never have introduced the word com- 1 irawn up the resolutions which were to be submitted to < bhe meeting would never have introduced the word com- 1 .-L. pulsory," had they not thought that such a system was necessary. (Hear, hear.) This amendment having been withdrawn, the Rev. D. ROWLANDS moved as an amendment, and it was seconded by the^Rev. S. EVANS (Hebron) that the word secular' be omitted from the resolution." The Rev. JOHN GRIFFITH, M.A., rector of Merthyr, who was received with applause, rose with great pleasure to support the amendment for the excision of the word "secular." He had attended the conference simply as a hearer, and to gain knowledge, and he regretted that he should be called upon to oppose the first resolution which was put to the conference. Compulsory education was no new thing to him. Twenty years ago he advocated that word, compulsion, for his experience, extending over that period, had taught him that it was utterly impossible to educate the people, unless they had a compulsory system of education in force. For the last twenty-five years he had been successsively incumbent of two of the largest parishes in Wales, Aberdare and Merthyr, so that he had gained his experience of what a national system of education should be. If they had it compulsory they must also have it free, and, instead of the word "secular" he would rather go in for the term "unsectarian." (Hear, hear.) No national system of education could ever apply to Wales, unless it was an unsectarian one. (Hear, hear.) By unsectarian he meant undenominational. (Hear, hear.) The time, he was convinced, had come when they must not have any distinctive creed in their schools. (Ap- plause.) He would leave out the word secular," and in so doing he would remind them that they must bear in mind that the voice of the conference was not the voice of all Wales, for he had no hesitation in throwing down a challenge that as soon as it was known that the confer- ence had passed a resolution throwing the Bible aside, they would have every parish in the Principality raised up against such a decision. (Cries of No, no," and applause.) Mr Griffith then proceeded to refer to the establishment of a Free Teaching Committee in Merthyr, and continued that several gentlemen in Merthyr, know- ing that he would be at the conference, had forwarded him a document, requesting him to make known the feeling and opinion of the people of Merthyr upon the subject of secular education, and to tell the conference that no national system of education which prohibited the introduction of the Bible in the day schools would be acceptable to the people. The document bore the sig- natures of the High Constable, the Rev. David Jones, Independent minister, the Rev. Isaac Jenkins, Wesleyan minister, of about a dozen other ministers, as well as sig- natures of local Epreachers, deacons, and churchwardens, and they wished it to be entered as a protest that though whatever decision was arrived at might be the voice of the conference, still it did not represent the voice of Wales. (Applause and disorder.) The Rev. F. SONLEY JOHNSTONE said that Mr Griffith had referred to the opinion of Merthyr two years back, and not to what it was at the present day. Mr LLOYD JONES said that as some misapprehension existed as to the character of the Bill which the Bir- mingham League were bringing forward, it would be well that some explanation should be made. The League had not framed any Bill whereby instruction of a religious character would be given in the schools. The Bill gave a permissive power to the School Board, which was elected by and from the people, to allow spiritual instruction before and after school hours, but not in school hours. Did they want to see a Bill which would not allow even that? (No, no.) Some further discussion arose out of the Merthyr Free Education Conference, and a scene" was more than once threatening, the audience complaining that too great pro- minence was being given to Merthyr squabbles. Mr CHAS. W. JAMES (Merthyr) rose to support the amendment for the omission of the word secular," which really meant that the Bible was to be excluded from the schools. (Hear, hear.) They might pass the resolution excluding the Bible from the schools, but the country would not endorse such an opinion, nor would Parliament. (" Hear, hear," and applause.) He thought that they ought to keep to the words of the League, "free, unsec- tarian, and compulsory." (Hear, hear.) Mr JOHN SIMON tmerthvr) having spoken, Mr WILLIAMS (Merthyr) could not see why the League should have been troubled in the matter, or why the local affairs of the good people of Merthyr should be allowed to occupy such prominence in the delibera- tions of the conference. (Hear, hear.) To the con- ference, which was supposed to be representative of the whole of Wales, the individual opinion of Merthyr' could make but very little difference. He pleaded for the re- tention of the word secular" as being fair to all sections of the community. The Rev. ALFRED TILLY (Cardiff) thought that the in- terests of religion demanded that the schooling to be given by the Government should be entirely free from any religious element, even to the admission of the Bible in to the day schools. ("Hear, hear," and dissent.) He had as much right to plead for the teaching of the Bible in schools of art, as their opponents had to contend that it should be introduced in schools where children were taught to read and write. (Hear, hear.) Look at Ger- many, a country where the Bible and the Lutheran cate- chism were taught in the schools, what did they find there? Three-fourths of the people were atheists, and the same proportion of the people was committed to the grave without the observance of any religious ceremony. He thought that more harm-than good would result from placing the teaching of the Bible in the hands of the masters in Government schools. Look at Ireland-were they prepared to give a handle to the Roman Catholics to plead that they too should have denominational schools ? (Hear, hear.) As a religious man he pleaded that Govern- ment should not intermeddle with religious teaching. Let Caesar attend to the things which belong to Caesar, but let Caesar not touch the things which belong to God." (" Hear, hear," and applause;) The amendment for the omission of the word secular" was then put, and about a dozen hands held up in its favour. The amendment, and also the second one for the omission of the word "sectarian," having been lost, the original resolution, after-having been under discussion for nearly two hours and a half, was carried against a mi- nority of four. The Rev. ALFRED TILLY, then moved the second resolu- tion, "That this conference deems the direct religious teaching now imparted in day schools of but little value, and is confident that the spiritual training of the young may be fully and safely intrusted to the parents and the Christian church." He said that many of the friends of the conference had looked forward with great and deep anxiety to its success, and he was glad he could say that it had fully exceeded the fondest and most sanguine expectation of its promoters. (Applause.) He believed that the conference Consisted almost entirely of earnest, devout, religious men, and this fact would give great weight to the decisions at which the conference might arrive, as being the result of the convictions and opinions of men who would not do anything against the truth. They who were at the meeting also believed in the value of religious education—that man had religious capacities as truly as he had mental capacities. He held that religious education was necessary to the complete, educa- tion of every individual, but at the same time he held that the State had nothing whatever to do with impacting that religious education—(hear, hear)—and all the efforts made By the State to impart religious teaching had to a great extent, if not wholly, failed. Is middle-class., aehools no direct religious education was imparted, and, were those who were sent .out into the world to fight the battle of life less religious than the rest of the community ? Thus they had been.. charged with manifesting anxiety in the education of the lower classes* to the neglect of their own class. Whilst religious teaching was not imparted in the day schools, Sunday schools would still continue in their goodworkfand would become more efficient; for, when it was known that the Government had withdrawn from intermeddling with the religious education, of the people, the ministers and the teachers of Sunday schools would pay still greater attention than they now bestowed, and shew a greater regard and interest in the religious, education of the children. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. E. MORGAN. (Dyffryn) said he came to the conference to see and hear what was going on, and, re- presenting only himself, his constituency was not a very large.one. (Laughter.). He felt a deep and earnest in- terest in education, and very cordially-seconded the reso- lution, if it did not mean throwing the Bible overboard in theitr primary schools. (Applause.) His believed that there- were moral virtues which ought to be taught in their schools, and he had always looked upon the Old Book as the best text book for these moral virtues. (Hear, heswv) JSP the resolution meant the throwing overboard of the Bible, then he could not second it.. ("Hear, hear," and ap- plause. ) A great deal depended upon the moral atmo- sphere of a school—upon the moral atmosphere. of a country—and nothing, he- believed, conduced so much to this as. the bare reading of the Word of God. (Hear, hear.) What brought about the French revolution, but the propagation throughout France of the doctrines and atheism of Voltaire? He regretted very much that the Bible should have been thrown overboard, for be thought that the Old Book, after having been in Wales for so long, and after having done so much for the good and, welfare of Wales, deserved much better treatment at the hands of the Welsh. (" Hear, hear," and applause.) The Rev. Wm. Ambrose (Portmadoc) was called upon, but not answering to his name, Mr JOSEPH WAITE, B. A., seconded the resolution. He said that he did so with all his heart, not believing for a single moment in any of the reasons which had been given by the Rev. E. Morgan. The force of the resolution turned upon the word "direct;" everything hung npon. the expression the direct religious teaching." Now religion might be taught in two ways, spiritually or dogmatically. They sought to go in for the exclusion of direct dogmatic teaching, and if it was necessary so to attain that end, let them exclude the Bible from the schools, leaving its ex- position to the voluntary teaching of the Christian churches. The zeal of the Christian churches which had awakened and sustained all their missionary societies would, by the revision and efficiency of the existing Sun- lay school system, most thoroughly and efficiently attend to the religious education of the people. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. OWEN THOMAS (Liverpool) proposed as an amendment—"That the reading of the Bible be left an )pen question, to be decided by the Local Committees. [Cries of "No, no.") The CHAIRMAN said that that matter had already been lecided by the adoption of the first resolution. Mr JONES (Hibernian Schools, Liverpool) moved as an amendment that the word dogmatic" be substituted for i ;he words "direct religious." As a practical teacher of ;wenty-five years' experience, he felt that the resolution as 1 t stood upon the paper cast a great reflection upon the vhole class of teachers engaged in British schools. He md his fellow teachers would be very sorry to feel their lands tied, by the adoption of such a resolution, on the nost important part of their duty. (Hear, hear, and >ries of no, no.") He felt that the religious difficulties 1 vere greatly exaggerated, and that they existed only in 1 he imagination of certain gentlemen, for he had never < net them practically. (Hear, hear.) In the whole course < If his life he had encountered no difficulty in inculcating < he precepts of the Bible, and he thought that. some weight ought to tte given, some attention to be paid, to the views of a practical man like hinisclf. Where had their secular friends been all these years ? What had they been doing in the cause of secular cchication ? Where were their secular schools for the'poor ?. If they believed in secular schools, why not have established one? (Hear, hear.) He never met with or saw a secular school, and he should be glad to learn and to see what a secular school was. As- suming this conference to be the supreme legislature of the country-which it certainly was not-if a child told a lie, was he to tell that child that he had done wrong, tell him that there was a future state, and refer to the Bible? (Cries of "Certainly, yes, yes.") Where then was their secular education ? (Hear, hear, and interrup- tion, which continued for some minutes, and was only quelled by the interference of the chairman.) The Bir- mingham League had been well advised in the modifica- tion of their scheme. He should be extremely surprised if Mr Forster ever proposed that the Bible should be ex- cluded from public schools. (Hear, hear.) He never would propose such a principle—(cries of Yes, yes")- and, if he ventured to do so, depend upon it that he would never carry such a measure. ("Hear, hear," and ap- plause.) The Rev. D. CHARLES, B.A., seconded the amendment for the substitution of the word "dogmatic" for "direct religious." The numbers pro. and con. for the original resolution appearing to be equal, a count" was made, and the resolution as it stood was declared carried. The Rev. Dr EDWARDS (Bala) complained that the meaning of the word "secular" was ambiguous, and wished to have an express vote taken upon the broad question, whether the Bible was to be excluded. (Hear, hear.) He proposed, as an amendment, the following rider" to the original resolution-the words but that this does not mean the exclusion of the Bible from our schools." (Hear, hear) The Rev. OWEN THOMAS (Liverpool) seconded the amendment. The Rev. Dr DAVIES (Haverfordwest) said that- the exclusion of the Bible was not mentioned; all that was said to Parliament was, "Hands off, leave the Bible-I alone." (Hear, hear.) The Bible, though not in the school, was all round the school, in families, in Sunday schools; and seeing and knowing this, they should not be afraid to ask the legislature to exclude the teaching of the Bible from the day schools. Mr JOHN JENKINS (Llanidloes) referred to Holland, a country in which the people were as deeply imbued with religious feeling and principles as any country in the world. There the schools were supported by local rates, and the Bible was read in the schools, without note or comment; but if any of the parents of the children attending the school objected to the introduction of the Bible, then the reading dropped. Could not this system be adopted in the present instance ? The Bible might be read in the schools without note or comment, and if objection should be raised by Catholic, Jew, or atheist, then let the reading cease. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. DAVID EVANS, M.A. (Dolgelley) was in favour of the Bible being read without comment. He feared that he could not trust the teacher, as one party would want a teacher belonging to the Church of England, another party would want a Calvinistic Methodist, and- a third party would ask for a teacher of the Wesleyan denomina- tion. If they had both reading and commenting he must vote against the practice. As far as his experience of teaching and knowledge of schools went, he found that direct religious teaching was of very little value in the schools. Teachers having only grants for the three R's did not devote any great amount of attention to the higher branches of religion. Previous speakers had alluded to Sunday schools, and expressed opinions that they-might be raised to a higher point of efficiency and to greater per- fection. For his own part he did not think they could carry the system to fuller perfection. (Hear, hear.) Going into statistics he found that nearly all the children of all denominations who- attended day schools, also at- tended Sunday schools, and thus direct religious education in the day schools was not greatly needed. (Hear, hear.) Altogether he was assured that direct religious teach- ing was of very little value in day schools, and therefore he should express himself in favour of the reading of the Bible exclusively, without note or comment. (Hear, hear.)' Mr JAMES (Merthyr) said the Birmingham League had settled that matter, having met the difficulty in a very fair and ingenious manner, by permitting the School Board to allow the reading of the Scriptures before or after school hours. As the manager of a large British school at Merthyr, one which numbered nearly 1,000 scholars, and where the Bible was always read, he was opposed to the discontinuance of the practice. What would the children think if he went to the school some fine morning and told them that they must put away their Bibles, that they would no longer be used in the school ? If the Bible was to be discontinued in the schools because of the Government aid, then the Catholics would say that the Government had at last governmentally given up the Bible and turned it out of the schools. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. SAMUEL KENNEDY (Newport), was strongly opposed to the introduction of the Bible in the day schools. If he sent his child to learn a trade, for three hours a day, he did not expect that the man to whom he sent his child, should take him aside and begin to talk to him about reli- gious principles. But, if he sent his child to be altogether with a man, then he expected that that man would, acting loco parentis, remembtrthat that child had an immortal soul. (Hear, hear.) So, if he sent his child to school for three hours a day to learn tBe three R's," he did not expect that he should also have dinned into his ears and mind Rowland Hill's three R's-ruin, regeneration, redemp- tion." ("Hear, hear," and laughter.) The Rev. EDWARD MORGAN (Dyffryn), reminded the meeting that all he sought for and wished to have was the simple reading of the Bible. He stood up for the bare reading of the Scriptures. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. T. C. EDWARDS (Liverpool), asked why the opponents should oppose the amendment when they ex- pressed themselves aa being desirous not to exclude the Bible ? (Hear, hear.) If, in the primary schools they excluded the Bible, because there existed differences of opinion, they ought, on the same ground, to exclude from the Universities all1 philosophical, teaching, because men disagreed upon the principles laid down and supported by John Stuart Mill or Sir William-.Hamilton. (No, no.) They ought to admit the Bible into their schools, as being a book from which children would learn the strictest prin- ciples of morality. (Hear, hem-.) The Rev. F. SONLEY JOHNSTONE (Merthyr) thought that no book should be introduced' in the school upon which comment or explanation was not to be permitted. Let them introduce the Bilbld, to their children as the holiest and the bast book upon which they could lay their hands; let them read it carefully and question as they Tru1/" °n' They should teach their children to read the Bible in that manner, and not by saying "Read the book, but we win not explain any of it to you." (Hear, hear.) The Rev. Dr- REEs (Swancea) feared that the discussion of the evening would be like spreading- honey upon the bread of the Roman Catholics. He was no prophet, but he could foresee that in forty years hence Wales would be full of Roman Catholic schools and of Welsh-speaking Roman Catholics, if they clung to the, theory of religious teaching in the schools. (Hear, hear.). He yielded to no man in his love for the Bible, but he would sacrifice the little good which the reading of it might do in the day schools, rather than encourage the spread of Roman Catholicisrain Wales. tA Swansea there were multitudes of children, of Welsh people attending the Roman Catholic schools, but let them not assist the Government in con- verting these children to the Roman Catholic religion. It had been asked whiare was there an undenominational I school r He had built one himself and it was and had been efficient up to the present day, but because the pro- prietor of the greatest portion of the property in that neighbourhood would not give a site, he had been com- pellettto build the school, with its end resting against the chapal He applied to the Council of Education for a grant, and they declined to, make one because the school waor joined to the chapel. (Shame;) He wrote and asked the Council why they should give 21, 000 towards the com- pletion of a Roman Catholic school at Newport, when it: adjoined the Catholic Chapel, and refuse a similar privi-, lege to him? The answer he read was that, "Mr So and So was requested; to acknowledge the receipt of yoar letter, and to state that the correspondence upon the sub- ject is closed." (Shame.) Should they disestablish the Church in Ireland, and then build it up again by aiding Roman Catholic schools ? (Applause.) The Rev. J. PETERS (Bala) Jiavingbrieny addressed the meeting;, The Rev. KILSBY JONES, amidst loud cries of M vote," said that as Nonconformists they denied the-right of the Government to impose the reading of the Bible in-connec- tion with the grant. The meeting seemed to have got into a perfect muddle, for they devoted a long time to the passing of a. resolution, and then subsequently they set to and began wrangling about it. For his own part he would rather have his child murder the English tongue. and blunder in arithmetic, than allow him to have a bad senti- ment inculcated in his mind by an incompetent teacher. (Hear bear.) Let the Bible be left to the love which the Welsh always had had for it. It would always maintain its pre-eminence as God's Book, and they had. too much respect for it to drag it into the schoolroom to be made a book for quarrel and contention. (Applause.) The Eng- lish people. wanted religious teaching., the Welsh needed secular training. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. S. EVANS (Hebron) having spoken. The Rev. ALFRED TILLY, in reply, urged that they should have the Bible as a religious book, or not at all. In teaching the Bible in their day schools they were opening up the way for denominational education in Ireland, and for the Papal domination in that country. The CHAIRMAN then put the amendment to the meeting it being the original resolution with the following rider But that this does not mean to exclude or impose the reading of the Bible in cur schools." Upon the show cf hands being taken, the numbers appeared to be equal, but the Chairman said that in his opinion the amendment had been carried by a majority. (Applause.) The Rev. ALFRED TILLY said that he was under an im- pression that the amendment was lost. (Cries of H Oh, oh," and chair.") The CHAIRMAN said that Mr Tilly ought to have chal- tenged his decision before, but he would put the amend- ment and the resolution again to the meeting. He did so, and the amendment was carried by a large majority. The third resolution Religious liberty being the birth- right of every individual, this conference protests against suiy National Scheme of Education, which shall enforce attendance at denominational schools, or levy rates for sec- tarian or even religious instruction," was briefly moved by Mr John Simon; seconded by the Rev. Simon Evans (He- bron); and supported by the Rev. David Evans (Carnar- von). The Rev. SAMUEL KENNEDY moved as an amendment, That it is the deliberate conviction of this conference, that the scheme for National education, propounded by the Birmingham National League, affords in its main prin- ciples a most desirable and satisfactory provision for the wasting necessities of the country, but exposes itself to the charge of perpetuating the denominational system, and would vvmmaud the full support of this conference, if they I ,J would exclude altogether from their Bill the provision for religious instruction being imparted in the school-buildings before, during, or after school hours. And with respect to existing schools, whether or not they are sufficiently commodious for the educational necessities of a district, this conference desires that equitable arrangement shall be made with the managers thereof, for their immediate or early union with the national system, and should they de- cline, all state support to them shall cease This amendment embraced both the 3rd and 5th resolutions, and he thought that the meeting should say what they in- tended to do with reference to the schemes which were al- ready before the country. The propositions advanced by the Manchester Union had only to be named or to be con- demned. In the Birmingham Bill there were two funda- mental features to which the conference was opposed, the first being the reading of the Bible, which they wished to confine to being read before or after school hours, and the second as to the National schools receiving their grant as before. He proposed the abore amendment, so that some definite result of the opinion of the conference might be ar- rived at. The Rev. GRIFFITH DAVIES (Aberystwyth) seconded the amendment. The Rev. W. WALKER JEBB (Birmingham) defended the scheme of the League as being the most practicable one to parry out in proper working order the system of national education. The present system had been a complete failure, grappling with the ignorance of the inasses, and touching but a small majority of the people. The scheme of the League, and the Bill which the League bad framed, had been well considered by men who were acquainted with religious feeling and religious opinion throughout the country, and the League had come to the opinion that if a scheme must be carried out to meet the exigencies1 of the case it must be their scheme. (Hear, hear.) Mr LLOYD JONES having also addl-essed the meeting in support of the Bill of the Birmingham Lea°Tie Mr SIMON said that he would withdraw hia resolution so that the amendment might pass. The CHAIRMAN, profor put both the resolution and amendment. For the former four hands were raised and the amendment was carried by a large majority. It being now half-past ten, the sitting of the conference was adjourned, it being understood that Mr Kennedy's amendment would rame on for discussion, in the place of the original resolution, on the foltowing day. WEDNESDAY. On Wednesday the conference resumed its sitting at mce o clock,_Mr James,_of Merthyr, in the chair, in the absence of Mr Richard Davies M.P., who had been com- beiir'put Kennedy's amendment The Rev. D. ROWLANDS (Bangor) said that he thought it showed a certain amount of sympathy with the Birmimr- ham League,but afterwards it drifted away, and went in direct opposition. He thought that thev ought to express their sentiments of dissent from the League a little more clearly; and pronounce in a more decided manner in what sentimexfts they favoured the scheme of the League He moved the following amendment, which was seconded by by Mr Jones (Hibernian Schools, Liverpool)-" That we are sony that we cannot, as a conference, give our full approval tcrthe scheme of national education proposed bv the Birmingham^ League. We object to the permission proposed to be given to School Boards to allow the Bible to be used; or religious instrugtion to be given, out of school hours, and we cannot approve of the arrangement proposed to be made with existing, schools, inasmuch as we have no confidence whatever in the principle of the Conscience Clause. Yet, seeing the importance of united action on the question at such a time as this, and, with the understanding that the League will be of a progressive character, and ibse no time in securing a measure of edu- cation that wilF amply meet our requirements, we resolve, as a conference, to give our adhesion to the Birmingham Education League, and pledge ourselves to co-operate heartily with that organization in endeavouring to ob- tain a satisfactory measure of national education." This amendment was opposed by the Revs. F. S. John- stone and David Evans, Dolgelley, and by Mr John Simon. /0HS GRTITITH' rector Merthyr, com- plained that too great a bugbear was feeing made of the church schools. Daring his experience he had had schools under his direction with 1,000 scholars on the books and of these something like nine-tenths were the children of dissenters, and yet he could not put his finger upon a dozen of the number whom he had made ohtirchmen. The Rev. R. LmiLEY (Liverpool) asked Mr Griffith fif he would consent to have his schools turnoo over to new management ? The Rev. J. GRIFFIIU, -I consent to nothing. (" Hear hear," and laughter.) Mr GEE (Denbigh) spoke in favour of the first amend- ment. They had objected to the conscience clause, and the League had one in their Bill, and the meeting had also expressed itself as to the-reading of the Bible, in a manner which was adverse to the tone of the League. He thought that Mr Rowland's amendment was too crude and un- satisfactory. Mr R. CORY, junr., also expressed himself averse to the programme which had been laid down by the Birmingham LeagTie. He thought that if the teaching and reading of the Bible were left in the hands of the heads of families and of ministers they couM not go very far wrong (Hear, hear.) He trusted that the discussion would throw a gre ft flood of light upon the deliberations of th&Leajrae ana that they might be prepared with a clearep-and unde' nomiaational scheme of national education to, lay before the people. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. W. WALKER Jkim urged that the scheme of the League was a measure which would satisfy the whole of the nation, and hoped that the Welsh would not flv in the face of the League, but that, they would fight by their side. Mr WM. EVANS, Menai Bridge, objected to tlieseheme of the League because the permission given to managers of denominational schools to receive children sent by the locaL School Board was permissive. He knew of many national schools, which were fully sufficient for the requirements of the parish, and these schools, ae a rule were. entirely in the hands of the clergymen of the parish' Under the new scheme a looal School Board was formed, and they would go to the clergyman and, saying, that they had 10ft boys to send to the school, ask him to take them and give them an unsectarian education. He declines and this incurs the erection, of a second school, solely on account of the crotchet of- one man. (Hear, hear.) Before the scheme of the Lfeagae could approe.4 what was right, the Government giant to the school should be stopped, if the manager of the school decline to -admit childt,en so sent. (Hear, hear.) In England the schools were-often under the joint management of the clergyman and^he squire of the parish^ who worked hand and glove m the matter, and, if the tenants wished to build a second school, this would be most Kkely to draw dawn upon them the frown of their landlord. (Hear, hear.) The amendment was then put and lost, and Mr Kennedy's motion was carried by a large majority The Rev. F. S. JOHNSTCNB then moved in tharoem of the sixth resolution on the agenda, That the attention of the Executive of the League be invited to the foresoine resolutions, in the hope that they may be abk to modifir their scheme, so as to admit of the members of the con- ference heartily co-operatiog with them in securing ita objects, and, in case of tkeir declining to do soy that the following gentlemen be appointed an Executive Com- mittee, to bring the view of this conference- before the country, and to watch the introduction and., progress of any educational measure which may be brought before Parliament, and that the same gentlemen be appointed a deputation to represent the views embodied in these reso- lutions to Mr Forster and the Home Secretary, and also" to prepare a Bill adopting the League programme with these amendments, and arrange for its introduction to Parliament. Dr EDWARDS, Bala, seconded the resolution, and the following gentlemen were named as the Executive :-The Rev. F. S. Johnstone^ the Rev. Dr Edwacds, Mr Thomas Gee, the Rev. D. Rowlands, Bangor, the- Rev. A. Tilly the Rev. D. Evans,. Dolgelley, Professor Morgan Dr Davies, Haverfordwest, the Rev. E. Evans, Carnarvon the Rev. E Morgan* Dyjfoyn, Mr Hugo-Pugh, Pwllheli! the Rev. W. Ambrose, Portmadec, Mr Waite, RA., Cardiff, the Mayor of Aberystwyth, Mr W. Davies' Menai Bridge, the- Rev. T. C. Edwards, Liverpool, Mr Cory, jun., Cardiff; the Rev. D. Evans, Merthyr the Rev. N. Thomas* Cardiff, Mr John. Simon, the Rev J Roberts, Pontypiadd, the members of Parliament for the Welsh counties, and the secretaries. of the conference with power to add to the number. The Rev. T. C. EDWARDS, Liverpool, moved the 4th resolution, "That a system of National Free Education, in order to be equitable, should, in addition to the elementary forms, provide advanced and high schools open by graeU ation to all classes of the community," adding as a rider "and that all tests in the Universities should be abolished. (Applause.) The Rev. ALFRED TILLY seconded the resolution, which was carried. An enquiry was made by the Rev. Alfred Tilly as to-the balance sheet of the conference. Mr JOHN MATTHEWS, Mayor of Aberystwyth, the hon. treasurer of the conference, said that the receipts would be undar 220. The bills for printing and other expenses attendMit upon the conference-had not been sent in. The-usual compliment was given by acclamation to the readers of the papers, to the gentlemen who had acted as secretaries to the conference, to the Rev. D. Charles for his exertions in convening the conference, and to the gentlemen who had acted as chairmen at the- several sittings of the conference. The proceedings terminated at half-past eleven. (For Report of University College Meeting seepage 4.)