The Welsh Coast Pioneer and Review for North Cambria

HELSGIOUS ASPECTS OF DISESTABLISH- MENT AND Di £ <ENDOWMENT. Tho REV. CANON JOYCE said: If the Church in Wales is disestablished and disen- dowed, that also will be the fate of the Church in England. Nor is it likely that any long in- terval would be allowed to elapse between the two events. We stand or fall, together. As a matter of tactics the attack is concentrated upon us m Wales at the present moment, but it is plain enough that the whole principle of estab- lishment and endowment is in dispute. There are no special circumstances in Wales which would justify the adoption of different policies in the two countries. After the evidence which has been given before the Commission, I should sup- Pose that even the boldest of platform. orators toll hesitate to bring forward the old calumny ^b&nt ""tfte .alien Church." So certain is it that the fortunes of the Church on both sides of the ooraer will be identical that I propose to speak on the question, as it touches the whole country, without, special and particular reference to our own dioceses. CONSIDERATION OF THE RELIGIOUS rp. ASPECTS. '11 u Sa Jec^ so' *or our consideration is, as you *ill have observed, not disestablishment, and dis- endowment in general, but disestablishment and lUsendowment in their religious aspect. That quaJfication fixes certain limits without which our subject would be unmanageable. We shall hot oe concerned, for example, with the legal aspects ')f the question. Wo need not trouble ourselves Its to the early history of tithe, and the much spated question whether a thousand years, ago it y as a state'imposed tax or a voluntary gift. It :8 not our business to examine the legal title of t he Church to her possessions. Those are im- i-ssues; and must, cf coure. be dealt, with '11 their right place. Nor need we be in the least Miaid of the vordic-t. But it is not on legal Q!'gUIH:'llt3 alone rchiefly that wo rely. Ques- tions of great national moment are, not settled by .awyer3 in a musty court by means of elaborate 'eirrence to ancient, precedents, but before the hlr of the national judgment and the national conscience. The nation is the Caesar. .to whom 1tnal appeals must go. I do not think that we stall appeal in vain. Nor need we consider the; social and political consequences w hichmight: be ^peteted to follow feom an act of disestablishment s-nd disen lown'.ent, serious as those consequences v>ould eertainly be. must climb to a higher plane h111 that of legality or expediency before We can find decisive arguments. Fot- us it is the religious. aspect of the question which will be the"delermining factor. We do not ask what will Je the effect of disestablishment, and. disendow- ment on the national prosperity, but what, will be, 'ts effect on the national character. Will it make us a better, a more religious, a more God- 'earin.* nation, or will it leave us ni'ore than ever "e.voted to mammon-worship,. more absorbed in the pursuit of mere material comfort? Accord- ■:i^g as you answer t,hat quest ion; be either enthu- siastic advocates or resolute opponents of the policy of disestablishment. It is not a matter on Which a man may take his opinions at second hand. He must think out the question himself nd act on his own convictions. In a serious this men must not try tc avoid respon: sibility by adopting the "follow-mv-leader"' atti- tude, and still less by standing aside in the char- 2-eter of indifferentists.. INDIFFERENCE IN SUCH A MATTER UNWORTHY. It has beer, pointed out by a very, acute writer, Mr J. E. C Bodlev. that in Franco disestablish- naent hils been brought about almost through a of accident-.becau-e the country as a whole 00red verv littie about, the matter. Let us hope fKat it will otherwise here. There is little mftftrht'tiind small patriotism in the ma.n who does feel 1 hat in. the rehtion of Church to State fit- roaqhin'^ n^oiViV issuer of great &nd lasting ^h'nortahec a re. involved. If the alteration of that Nation y tö. be the subject of controversy. Jp-f it, at least be a con- trOver^V V'arried on' with a. flue sense of Spoilsibili'tV. A gr,eat question'is in the balance. ihere teuld'.not bb a more stupid mistake than •. '*Q. suppose it pnlv a squabble over social jealous.- ,'e.i 01* a s^ranible for the loaves and fishes. .,t)};E CHTJRCH IN ESSENTIALS iNDEPEN- T)ftNT OF PRl VILEGE AND PROPERTY, Ijdo n jt, see ho v. we can fsee the question of ^sestablishnient unless, we begin by insisting on We"distinction between those things which the Mbjirch' must have, without hich she is not the v^'urch at all; and. those other things which the Church may have like privilege and prosperity, ^rtBout which, however, she still remains herself, .wiotugh her opportunities of usefulness may be re- She must have her creed and her Sac- •^nients. Having these she is the accredited re- presentative of her Master, carrying on His mis- sjoii upon earth, the guide and teacher of men, the witness of heavenly truth. In all these mat: terR she-is beyond the reach of the attacks of the Secular pqwei. She has an energy, a vitality, a Permanence to which there is no parallel among •'he states of the world. The most ancient of tfiem all cannot boast, a continuous history of U)0Q years. The largest Em])ire is small in area ocnipa-rcd with the. kingdonl of Christ, The forces Sbfi-t make for the ultimate triumph of the Ch.urch are irresistible. Slow though they may OS-in aotion according to our systems of measure- nnenb, they work inevitably to tho accomplish- ment of the divine purpose. moves ever ?teacti]y forward, surmounting obstacles and un- jrpeded by opposition. To the Church, so con- the threat of disestablishment and dif.cn- ^cwmont in England and WTales presents no very ormidablo appearance. "The Lord is in the ^Ud?yt. of her, therefore shall she not J.- removed;" not "though the earth be moved and the hills f^-rried into the midst of the seas." Let the tf 1 Uak0 come! The most tremendous poli- °°nvulsions, the most, violent shocks c-f revo- Wion, which oan bring society to the ground in 'Will leave the Church standing firm as ever, d founded on the rock. THE PRESENT A PERIOD OF TRAN- SITION. I have thought i well to dwell for a moment on that familiar thought, because it banishes from the mind all tendency to panic. Let us neither Bay nor think that the Church is in. danger. The Church, properly understood, is no more in dan- ger than (I man's life is in danger, when his oompanion3 threaten to strip the coat from his backttnd to remove the money from his pocket. And yet, of course, these are not the easy days of security. It is an anxious age in which we live, l'uage of rapid change and quick transitions. The whole organisation of our national life is being transformed. The England of to-day is unlike that of a generation ago; the England of to- morrov/ will be yet more different. We are in the throes of a revolution—a revolution affecting not so much the form of government, but the man- ners and morals and eocial life of our country- What will England' and Wales be like when we issue from this period of instability and re- arrangement ? We have high hopes. We think that we shall find the pollution of those problems which press so hardly upon ui«, the problems of housing, of unemployment, of poverty. Please God, it may be so. Meanwhile we engaged in the momentous and perilous task of reshaping the institutions of our country. Each in turn is called before the bar of oriti- cism, tihe Monarchy, the House of Lords, the Church, the family, marriage. -ibo-ut them all it is asked whether they are to be retained, abolished, or remodelled- SURVIVAL OF CHURCH CERTAIN: OF ESTABLISHMENT DOUBTFUL- And' what is to be the answer with regard to the Church? That she will survive through the period of transition, and ill "lay her part in MR R. W. LIVINGSTONE. I the new era that is comin there is not the slightest shadow of doubt. Before, now she has aeen the whole fabric of European society dis- solved and reconstructed, and has hen-self come (safely through the sboani. So she will again. But in that new England and v vales will she be, aa of old, an established and endowed Church ? That is an altogether different question, and the answer will depend upon the action of the national will and the n.atio,nal conscience,—the will and conscience, it would seem, of the pre- sent generation- We cannot shirk the issue. The responsibility for the future lies on us. The establishment and the endowment of the Church is now a great feature in our constitution. Is it to be transmitted as part oé our goodly heritage to ouir children, or swept away as an anachron- ism ? AN IMMEDIATE ANSWER REQUIRED TO PRESENT PROPOSALS. Whether we like it or not the question is now thrust upon us. The voices which cry for dis- establishment are loud and clamorous- The present Government stands. pledged to intro- duce a. measure giving effect to these demands- And if ouir resistance jb to be successful, it must be based on sosne few broad, cleair, and lofty principles- In such a cause it would be Avorse than foolish, it would1 be a disgrace to appeal to any lower motive than love of country and loyalty to the faith which we n/rofesis. To me it seems as though the whole case- were im- mensely simplified by the fact that we have be- fore us the precedent of 1894. We can form a shrewd guess off what the contemplated measure ia Likely to be. At leafct we may be sure that it will not be lesis rigorous or less drastic tlhan the Bill of thirteen years since. We know then that though disestablishment and disendowment are quite separate in theory, one not necessarily involving the other, yet in fact the two are for the present indissolubly joined together- We need not discuss what would1 be the effect, of disestablishment without ddsendowment- For that is the. iaet thiriig which the leaders of this particular agitation desire. Nor need we con- sider tlie justice or expediency of so-called schemes of concurrent endowment, i.e., schemes by which the ancient religious endowments would be divided between the different religious bodieti in proportion to their respective num- bers- That also is not. on the programime- What we have before us is the proposal to divert the ancient endowments from their present sacired use, and to devote them to the supply of material benefits, such as libraries model- dwellings and so forth- PROPOSED DISENDOWMENT DISHON- OURABLE AND DEMORALISING. Remember that this wholesale transference cf property from a siacred to a secular use involves its transieirence from one owner to another. If the (state chooses to use its irresistible poweir it can make the traneie.rence legal, it cannot in this case make it just or equitable. However much respect is paid to all the, fornix of law in the process, it will remain a dishonourable action; and the nation which deliberately adopts a dishonourable policv cannot hone to escape the inevitable penality- If we desire to keep the honour off our country unstained, we shall not sit1 tamely by, indifte,rernt and inactive, while the nation is hoodwinked into 'sanctioning1 an action that would be against the conscience' of the plain man. I began by saying "that the question before us is whether disestablishment^ and disendowment'would make us a better and1 more religious nation- I should answer that neither nations nor men become better or more religious by .performing or consenting 1:Q dis- creditable .actions. And iurther, when we consider, the circum- stances of our time, we caninot but feel that an act of dciseetablishment and disendowment would have a most tteiMoraiie-ing- eftect upon the char- acter of the nation. There is in modern! civi- lisation a terribly strong teinclency to become inai-easiingly materialistic, to lose sight of higiher and spiritual mtereattS in the frantic eagerness cf tihe race for wealth- Disendow merit woidld I believe, give a fresh and fatal impetus to tihis evil spirit, the besetting temptation of our argo. If the nation deliberately chooses to take money which has been spenf on the service of God and the propagation of the knowledge of spiritual things, and proceeds to spend it on making the MR LL. HUGH-JONES. I present life more comfortable, the natural in- ference will be widely {drawn, that it is this world and this life which really matter, and that the other world and the next life are scarcely worth a practical man's peirious atten- ion- Will a movement o^ that kind make ue a more godfearing nation ? POLITICAL ALLIANCES TO BE AVOIDED. This policy must be resisted, but let the re- sistance be so managed as not to involve the Clhur6h in the jsordid business of politics. Poli- tical alliances between the Church and any party, Conservative^ Liberal, o,r Independent Labour, are anathema. Tempting as they may be in the stress of conflict, and successful as they mav be at, the beginning, they bring in their train inevitable, disaster- It iis the degra- dation of religion- I would there'orc urge upon my brethren'cf the laity that it is their busi- ness first and foremost to organise this resifi- tatnee. It is not primarily a clercical question at all. It is a matter to be eiettled by the citi- zens of this country, and to be settled bv them not on the lower grounds of expediency and op- I portunism, but on the high grounds of principle, honour and faithful adherence to the best tradi tiaras of the past- Make it unnrr.takably clear that the resistance which you offer is not due to any desire to save your own pocket, that it is not caused by the apiprne hens ion that, should this measure pass, you would be called on to subscribe two shillings, whore now you subscribe one, A resistance based on that ground would oolilapse contemptibly and ignobly, as it would indeed dleeerve to do THE ALTERNATIVE POLICY CHrRCH REFORM. And make it clear, too, that you are not adopting a. policy of passive contentment with things as they are in regard to establishment and endowment. We don't deny that there are anomalies, inconsistencies and abuses; and that in the existence of theæ. things lie the Otfiilv potent reasons which can be urged on beL- half of a policy of disestablishment and dis- endowment- State interference in things spiri- tual, great inequality of endowment, the exclu- sion of the parishioner from all share in the exercise of patronage; these things aie not to be defended, and cannot be imdbfimtely tolera- ted- Let our ideal be the free Church in the free State. When we secure the power to man- age our own concerns, then these necessary re- forms will be carried through. Freedom is the neocs&ary condition of progress- And freedom we shall get, not, I believe, through the heroic remedy or diseetabciiishmefnt and dSsendowment, that perilous leap into the ({lark, that irrocover- t able breach with the past, but through the slow and eure aotion of constitutional forces. Let us seek the realisation of our ideal along the old path of deliberate and well-corisiid-crcd advance from reform to reform- We have an inspiring example in tho established Church of Scotland which has, these fifty years past, Avon its free- dbim-1 What they have done, wo may do. It ? th £ road of safety. And then out of this period of transition, when all things seem unstable, and every institution rocks on its foundations, the Church will emerge, not only unscathed, but liberated, purified, strengthened- CAPTAIN MYTTON, of Welshpool, con- tinued the discussion, and in a fiery, speech he appealed to Free Churchmen generally to exer- cise more of the spirit which had characterised the repreeentativee of the Oswestry Free Church Counoil that day. He hoped the gentlemen re- ferred to would go home and preach to t he* r flocks the doctrine .they had enunciated in the hall tha.t morning, and to influence the Free Church Press so a" to put a stop to the publication of tho scandalous statements circulated with re- gard to the Church in Wales, After declaring that the Church Commission was a farce, the speaker urged all Churchmen to gird their airmour in readineea for the forthcoming con- flict. DR. JEBB, Principal of St. David's College, Lampeter, declared his firm conviction that the Disestablishment and Disendowment of, the Church would have a very harmful effcct .upon all other churches. They should all take a way with them from such a Conference as that the conviction that that was not a matter of loaves and fishes, but one of national importance, about which there should be no two opinions. Let them at onca make up their mindli on which slide they were going to stand on that question, and above all things he hoped they would re- member that no permanent and lasting settle- ment could be arrived at apart from consider- ing the question in the proper spirit (applause). MR P. P. PENNANT said that the more seriously they took up that question the more likely their opinion would be to prevail. They in Wales would not be' able to withstand the enemy alone. They must be all thoroughly in earnest, for that would ensure for them the help of their sister Church in England, and to fight their batfe effectively it was absolutely necessary that that was assured. As far as they could they should strive to convince English people that they were in the same boat as the Welsh, for Welsh Disestablishment would ulti- mately lead tOo the Disestablishment of the Eng- lish Church (hear, hear). During the previous controversy the Eng.ish people had realised that fact to some exte-nt, and amongst the Welshmen who had been invited to addrers. English audi- ences c.n the matter, he was one. He had spoken at thirty-six places in England on that occasion, and at the following general ejection everyone of those places—with the exception of Durham, where the opposition candidate got in by one vote majority—returned anti-Disestab- lishciris to Parliament (loud applause). That proved to hisi mind that if the English Church put that matter forward it would have great power over the electorate (cheers). The VICAR OF HOPE also spoke on the question.

"SUPPLEMENT THE WORK OF THE SUNDAY SCHOOL." Mr LL. HUGII-JONES then read the follow- ing paper:—I was not quite clear whether by "supplement the work of the Sunday School" in the title of our discussion, was intended Eteps to increase the efficiency cf the Sunday Schools themselves, or to carry on the work of religious instvue;ion elsewhere and among classes not now icachcd or attracted by Sunday Schools, or both. I think it must necessarily to some extent com- prehend both, and I understand this is what was contemplated. No one will deny that the most important sphere of religious instruction outside the Sunday School-lea vilJ;; out ci consideration elementary is he Iwme, as it is also tlie most power- ful influence that can be enlisted on the 61de of Sunday Schools, and in promoting habits of re- ligious study. There are various organisations by which the Church already supplements Sun- day SehooL work more or leis& directly, for example Communicants' Classes or Guilds, Bands of Hope, Scripture Reading Unions, Gid6' iriendly Society Reading Circles, etc. There ;8 none, howcicr, that I know of that takes particular cognizance of religious instruction in the home. The time has oertainly arrived when that has become a matler of prime importance, ,ili,eii the work of teaching parents how to give religious instruction to their children, how to a.dapt it, to their varying ages and capacities, recommending suitable series of lessons and MR P. P. PENNANT. I books, is a task which should be definitely taken in hand by the Church and clergy. It would be no disadvantage to the Sunday School to be relieved of children of six and under, if only they received some simple lessons at home. Too much of the responsibility which properly be- longs to the. parent, is transferred to the Sunday School teacher. It would be better that parents should, at some period, take some part in the religious instruction of their children- they would better appreciate what is done for them m the Sunday Schools. It is the duty of the Church to arouse those parents who are neglectful and instruct the unlearned. How much might be done, in ten or fifteen minutes at tlie mothers' meetings, which are in so many parishes held weekly, and how often is that valuable opportunity missed? For those parents who do not attend mothers' meetings might there not be at a stated season—say Lent or Advent-a series, of instructions for parents only on "How to give religious teaching at home"— a we.l thought out series, with its syllabus printed and distributed before-hand, culminating in the registration of all Church children in the parish who weire receiving home religious in- struction, the adoption of a syllabus, and the provision of an examination a year afterwards for thoee who cared to present themselves, fol- lowed by those who passed taking up a more advanced grade in the ensuing ye'ar. Arch- deacon Taylor, of Southwark, writing on this subject, says: "On our visits have we as clergy shown an interest in the religious training of the children of these classes? The Presbyterian minister in Scotland makes it a part of his pas- toral visitation to ask what the children of the family are being taught, and will send for them and question them." The same writer says, "It is the home that provides the true believing teacher strong in faith and affection for the Sunday School." On th -e' ofcher-hand, it may be truly mid that Sunday School teaching is an invaluable apprenticeship to the art of home teaching, and if the parents of the educated classes better realised this they would paes more of their sons and daughters through the ranks of Sunday School teachers. A USEFUL BOOK. There is a most admirable little book dealing with this, subject called "Church Teaching at Home" (S.P.C.K. 6d) which was oompited- by a committee of the Rural Deaneries of East and West Worcester and issued with the sanction and approval of the Bishops of Worcester and Birmingham. It gives a syllabus of instruction for children of varying ages, a list of books re- commended and practical suggestions for the home training of children, and subjects for their examination. Nothing that I can say can illus- trate the possibilities of the development of home religious teaching half as effectively as a perusal of this little book. The point for ub here at this Diocesan Confer- ence is that the, development of home religious training should.have a permanent and recognised place in the diocesan plan of Church work. TIM Church's course of instruction for her members as laid down in the Prayer Book seems to end with Confirmation. May it not be that the prescribing of a course up to that point has helped to create the im- pression that further instruction and study is not necessary? But whether that be so or not, it is certain that in spite of the work, of communicants' classes and guilds many who come under instruction at their confirmation.arc Hot attracted cr retained by Sunday Schools or any other means of instruction. It might per- haps serve,to strengthen the classes and guilds referred to and to continue the Church's in- struct ion of the young on systematic lines if there were for the whole diocese a. post-conifrmation course of say one or two years' fitudy and in- struction. That is a matter upon which there might be a good deal to say on both sides, but I suggest, it is well worthy of consideration. Then there are the youths in our intermediate schools or just leaving them for a; profession or business—a very important and intelligent clase. In several English dioceses there are associations for .promoting higher education in religious I HON. W. G. A. ORMSBY-GORE, I knowledge. Their operations are diverse, but in several instances appear to be such as would reach this class. In Winchester the Council suggests each year a couree of study, occasional papers are issued, lectures delivered,, and ex- aminations held. In St. Albans the work consists mainly of the examination of such schools as Berkhametead, Felsted, and Haileybury. A summer camp for Scripture readin;g and studv where religious instruction and hard manly dis*- ciplme and sports Went hand in hand might pro- duce a very real impression upon the lives and charactcTb of the youths we are now considering, and serve to draw them within any scheme of religious study and possibly at the same time .recruit them for parochial work. The business and conduct of the canIp might enlist the in- terest and engage the activities: of under- graduates of the Universities. Thifi if at all practicable would be a matter not for the parish but for the diocese or a combination of dioceses but I think it will be agreed it would be better so than carried on as a private venture. A PRACTICAL SUBJECT. But the subject for discussion this afternoon is a very practical one-what stepe can be taken? Any step requires to be thoroughly well con- sidered and planned out., and I would suggest that in the interests of the Sunday Schools them- selves, and of religious instruction of all kinds outside of them; the nicst comprehensive and practical step that could be taken would the formation of a Diocesan Association for Sunday Schools and religious instruction other than in elementary schools. The objects of the Associa- tion would be to take the whole of this work in charge, to collect funds and appoint a salaried organiser of religious instruction|apart from the elementary schools. The orgarilseir's first and principal duty would be to 'help the Sunday Schoos-to inspect and report upon them, to arrange courses of lessons and, perhaps with voluntary assistance, for an examination 01 '11" upper classes. Ho would see that the schoo.s were properly supplied with books, maps"and models (the Association would help t provide them), that they were kept in orderly fashion, that the teachers had notes of lessons and other aids to their work. that classes were not too crowded, that, the scholars were properly graded, tha.t the registers and statistics were well kept, that the singing of hymns was studied. He would encourage the circulation in the schools of Church and Missionary literature, and intro- duce a uniform system for keeping touch of scholars and teachers who moved from one parish to another. In short, Ü would be his duty to etudv Sunday School work not only in our own Church but in others also, and with- out attempting the impossible, or imposing a cast iron system, or pressing square 'methods into round parishes, he could offer suggestions, and stimulate interest and arouse enthusiasm. and he would do it not as a critic or inspector, but as a helpful friend. If it were not possible to provide a salary sufficient to engage a man's whole services, there are in this diocese seveml Livings where neither the duties nor the income are sufficient to exhaust the energies of a man in the prime of life and where neither the spiritual interests nor the efficiency of the incum- bent would suffer if he had an appointment which took him away a. day or two a week with an occasional exchange of duties on Sunday. In that case—or perhaps in any case—the appoint- ment should be for three years only, and not renewable, so that the appointment might cir- culate and thus be held in different parts of the diocese, and by a succession of men who would bring to it fresh energy and ideas. The post-conifrmation course of study, the development of home Teligiou6 teaching, the pro- motion of higher education in religious know- ledge, and the summer camp, could all be care- fully considered by the Association, and that which appeared practicable and desirable would be set on foot and festered by it, and by the organiser. All the various associations which now carry on religious instruction in some form or another would be helped and directed in their work. The annual report of the orgajiiser of religious instruction would be the most interest- ing, and, I hope, stimulating document that could be read at a Diocesan Conference or the July meetings. An Association of this kind ex- ists in many diocesest. May it not be well to try it again—for I believe there was one at one time—in this diocese, and with larger and more comprehensive scope and Mms? I can conceive of no more effective step for supplementing the work of Sunday Schools both within and outeide of the schools. In conclusion, let me remind the Conference tha.t ever since the days of Bishop- Short, Sun- day School work has been a tradition and fea- ture of this diocese. I interpret the choice of this subject for discussion at this memorable Conference as a call from our Bishop, to clergy and iaity alike, not only to support the work of the Sunday School, but also to take a wide survey of the whole needs of the. diocese as re- gards religious instruction outside.rof tihe: elemen- tary schools, and take some definite and perma- nent step for its promotion. The discussion was continued by Addie, Welshpool Mr Bennett. Rowlands, New- town; Mr Dawson, Brymbo; Mr E. E. Bone, Llandudno (who advocated the .^institution in every parish some provision for.,the adequate teaching a.nd preparation of Sunday r School teachers); the Rev. J. W. Jones, Meifod; the Rev. Evan Jones, Newtown; Chancellor Trevor Parkins, Captain Mvtton, the Rey. A. 4, Little- ton,, Hawarden; Mr E. 0. V. Llovd, of Rhagatt, and the Bishop. BISHOP EDWARDS said reference had been made to a diocesan syllalg- He did not be- lieve in a. cast-iron system of Sunday School in- struction (loud applause). An experiment which had been made in that direction had been a failure, and he felt there must be freedom for these who had the local knowledge to carry out the work as they best cou'd (renewed applause). He hoped they would not overlook the impor- tance of Sunday School instruction to adults— (hea.r, hear),—for that was an important element in the work of the Established Church in. Wales. He commended to the notice the! delegates a new book from the pen of Miss Hetty Lee, just published by the National Society, because he feit. sure they would find in tha.t many heJp- full points on Sunday School work. This concluded the afternoon sitting.

THE EVENING MEETING. STIRRING SPEECHES ON SOCIALISM. SMART REJOINDER BY THE BISHOP. In the evening Lord Ha.rlech preside^ over a c^iwded and enthusiastic public meeting: at the Gymnasium. His lordship was accompanied on the platform by the Bishop of t. Asaph, the Mayor of Oswestry, Lord M<jjstjn, "Captain Mytton. Rev. J. Wakeford, Literpóol Chan- cellor Trevor Parkins, Archdeacon Wynne Jones, Mr P. P. Pennant, Colonel Sandbaeh, Canon Spooner" Mr Wynne Come, and others. LORD HARLECII briefly explained that he had -been asked to take the chair in the un- avoidable absence of Lord Kenyon, who had been detained in London. Hog. (his lordship) had" ideas of his own on Sociailiez#, but he would not intrude them at that point,, iot there were gentlemen who hadbcCil1 epeciaWy delegated to deal with both sides of the question. He had, therefore, much pleasure, in caifliiig ■ upon Sir Foster" Cunliffe to open the (ap- ORIGIN AND IMPELLING:FORCE OF SOCIALISM. SIR' FOSTER CUNLIFFE that Socialism was a subject bo vast in wnt. it proposed to do, a.nd was likely to be" vaster in its consequence that they would a,gree with him it would not be possible to oth^i- than indicate as fa.r as he could in the time at .his disposal the main issues of the question. Modern Socialism was barely a century old, and it..had.not been evolved from the inner conscioqfehess of a few great thinkers. It had risen like other doctrines of the kind from the pressure of circumstances. It wals not due to a wish to discover a" perfect form of government, but Ho a desire to remedy evils which, at the time when it,, was first started, were I'.a.id to be intolerable. The &ppa^er pro- ceeded, to refer to the book by. Cart the German Socialist, and after quoting tlie mean- ing of.'Sociali«m as expressed, by that writer he pleaded that practically all the conditions com- plained of had now disappeared, The driving force, of tho present movement wa&' down- right material discontent. The Utopias pre- dicted by the Socialist were an excuse to sanctify -the-course of. revolution and destruction, which must necessarily, precede them .(hear, hear). It was. there necessary to remember the origin of Socialism, and the force which' impelled it. Then they must ask themselves whether the consummation, of the theory w likely to be a remedy. Socialism was subjected to very strict limitations, and he contended, that like other political creeds it would, not be found sufficient for the infinite requirements of human society (applause). People were asking what was the object of Socialism. The. main pb|ect appeared to be the equitable distribution, of material wealth. The capitalist and the workman were to be thrown into the crucible, and the svstem which claimed to be absolutely,'juet to the in- dividual was that the Government was to be by the State, through the State and, for the State —abolishing private property ajid checking pri- vate enterprise.. In a word Socialists put them in an iron cage, and, proposed artRicia-Uy to ad- minister to the wants of society." Vdersuch a system it was claimed that coin petition would vanish, for work would ceage, poverty would pass away, and inequality would disappear once and for all. Everyone wouldli^'ork inspired bv the sense of the. public, good. Roassumed that collectivism was, the oij:ly jogica! conclusion of the Socialistic creed, and; he,rwas enormously inclined to doubt that a country &o individualistic as England would ever submit to such ytem (cheers). But what they "had-t<vlook out for was that. Socialism would proceed by gradual changes. to undertake the .pow-^r of tlje State until some day they would wake up to find themselves no longer in the fivl..and valuable sense of the ,word a :free people. In the one great danger of Socialisoj was that the powers of the State would be .increased to that extent which no other power had sought except an Eastern-despot; the State would become the master and director; it would have a fright of interference in areas of human life where it had never intruded before, and the.:tehdenqy would be that the individual would have all initiative crushed out of him as he learned^ more more to lean upon the central authority (applause). To surrender self to stome vague adeaL was not duty nor patriotism; it wis treachery to the State and the nation—(renewed applause)— for once they crushed the individual they ruined the State, and the State was made for man, not man for the State. He did.not beiieve they would ever eradicate their seneo ofpqJte in- tercut, but they would divert it.from legitimate channels into dishonest channels (heaj, hear). The British public service of to-day—w^h..all its faulte—was the purest service in Europe, but once, they adopted the system advocated by Socialists they would have jobbery all its j. "i"" attendant evils in connection with their effioe- holders (hear, hear). Bureaucracy meant more than waste; it wouid mean a want of energy and creative power in the individual. That had always been its history. Continuing. Sir Foster contended it would be absolutely im- possible for a Socialist-governed State to exist while other nations not so governed surrounded it, and occasional wars would soon upset the beautiful c:gani>ni prepared in accordance with "hoe new theory. They bore with their excellent friends, the Liberate, at present because they did not press very heavily upon them. but the moment t'hev had a government with such a grip on their system as that advocated by Socialists it would make itself felt in every fibre of the national life. The result, would bo | chaos and inertia and people would, of course, be very much worse off than they were now (applause). Upon moral, religious and economio grounds they could more than meet the Social- istic orced (applause). THE OTHER SIDE. The REV. J. WAKEFORD, the well-known Socialist Vicar of Liverpool, was the next speaker. He said he was sorry he could not follow the same line of thought as Sir Foster. In the first place he did not be. ieve that self interest was the grand motive which they shou.d all have in view. The first law of redemption was self-sacrifice. There were two methods of government in the world,—one that began with the man and the other which began with the State, but Socialism struck a new line and began at the other end. Sir Foster had plead- ed the cause of individualism, but after ail their experience of individualism they must acknow- ledge that it had been a scandalous failure, otherwise 70 per cent, of the people would not be to-day living on the edge of poverty (cries of dissent). Well, t'hey could reduce the pro- portion to 30 per cent., or even 3 per cent., if they wished it. Even if the proportion were only 3 per cent. it would prove that individuaJ- ism had been a failure (cheers and cries of dis- sent). He preferred the people to the mil.ion- aire, but individualism was harmful to the lat- ter because it bred extravagance, wantonness, a.nd other excesses. If they observed life even in their smallest towns and villages they must see that slums existed, and the life of the peo- ple was such as to at once condcmn individual- ism (cheers and dissentient cries). Socialism was entirely compatible with Christianity, and he had never yet heard either Conservative or Liberal plead their political conclusions by meana of Scriptural arguments (laughter). Was the pre- cent system compatible with Christianity? Let them ask the clergy what were the reasons vouch- safed to them by parishioners for their absence from their churches. The reply would be that the people said the Church had associated it- self with a political party, and that they (the poor people) bore the penalty because the Church had lost its sympathy with them since it was bound up with the landowners and the rich (cries of dissent). Mr Wakcfcrd continued in this strain at considerable length, and vehe- mently protested against Sir Robert definition of Socialism, which he described as "German Socialism." Sir Robert, he said, had asserted that Socialism led to atheism, but Bishop Westcott, one of the leaders of English Socialism, needed no argument to defend him against the charge of atheism. In conclusion, the speaker said that Christian Socialism waa assured of its final truraph because it was based on the principles of that self-sacrifice which had been exemplified on Calvary. THE BISHOP S PERTINENT QUESTION. At the close of the speaker's uncommonly fiery address the BISHOP coolly got up, and asked Mr Wakeford "one question, which goes much to the root of the matter. Mx Wake- ford was not going to get out of his diffieultit18 by referring in taking phinaoee to Germany-. They were dealing with English Socialism, and he would ask his friend a question as dealing with English Socialism. He (his lordkhip) had read a few weeks ago a statement by Mr Biatohford—(cheers)—wiiom he respected very much, because he was [rank and honest in hit opinions, and did uot come there to palm off under the guise of Christianity something! which was not Christianity (loud cheers)- Mr Blatcbford had written: "Socialism in this country has no chance until we sweep the g-rouflHi clear ot all kind's of religions-" Did Mr Wakeford acknowledge that that was the fact? Mr Wakeford acknowledged that. so far M his memory served him, the quotation made by the Bishop was correct (laud applause). But Mr Blatchford had, of course, an equal right to speak for the Socialism he advocated, wiuJta they were not bound to receive his religious bias, and he (the speaker) trusted no one pre- sent that might ever would (applause)- It was open for Mr Blatehford and himself to differ upon some subjects, and he ttbe speaker) sbrongrlv contended' that it was unfair to affix amy gpecifio religious character to the move- ment (hear, hear). MR P. P. PENNANT said: It is necy to ask the question What is Socialism? because term is frequently used in such a vague an<| ambiguous manner that we are apt to forget wha.t Socialism really is, as laid down by ite ablest advocates, and writers. The beet <100 tion of Socialism which I have seen runs as tot lows: "Socialism denies individual private pro- perty of every kind, and affirms that society^ organised as the State, should own all wealth, direct all labour, and compel equal distribu- tion of all produce." On hearing this, one may well ask. Is this only an ideal or a mere And even if it be desirable, is it possible, and if possible, how on earth can such a system b4 brought into existence? Probably this is impos- sible. and that all future attempts will be equaj'lv great failures with those that have gone before. But certain propositions to put Social* ism into operation are put forward from time to time, and the latest- suggestion that I have seen on the subject is the proposal to effect this transfer of all wealth and pro- perty to the State, by a universal income-tax. raised gradually and continuously, until i| reached ~20s in the £ If all this was carriea out, all wealth and property would have been. conifiecated to the State, the dream of Socialism would have been realised, and a system of social organisation would prevail, whose motto wo>ul« be "Liberty, equality, fraternity." This was the cry of the French Revolutionists, but less than ten years of pursuit of this_dreaill was sufficient to involve all society in such mur- der, Woodshed, and confusion, that all classes gladly accepted the rigid despotism of Napoleon, who, with his strong arm held up France on her downward slide to destruction. Equally would it prove an idle and mischievous dreantl if attempted at the present day. So long as human nature remains what it is, you can- not have both 'liberty and equality. Until hu- man nature is totally altered, you must have men and women unequal both in mind and body—some strong, some weak—some eleven^ eome stupid—some sensible, some foolifili-wm. industrious, some idle--some active, some lazy. Are all these to be compelled to remain in Li.ri9 in the march through life? Is the pace of th. slowest to be the pace of every one ? Is no on<> to be allowed to exercise their industry, enterprise, their capacity, their foresight, tt> press forward and advance general civilizationt Is every one to bow the knee and worship medio- crity? But, if so, where is liberty? If equality is to prevail, there is no place for Liberty; and if liberty is aillowed to exist, it will soon kilji equality. They cannot exist together. I speak not. of course, of equality before the law, or of equality of opportunity So fa.r as laws and regulations can provide, these are not incompat- ible with liberty, and without them true liberty would not be obtained. What I am speaking of is the absolute e-quaJity of a!1J person's, and I repeat, to obtain this you must sacrifice liberty. And now. how about the third member of the trio, "Liberty, equality, fraternity?" Hovc; about fraternity? Here we have something1, quite different. Fraternity denotes a high prin- ciple that fights neither with liberty nor witH equality. It can live with either or with botlh. It does not denote wha.t the man shall be, but it denotes the relation that should exist be- tween man and man. It can live under almost any form of government, and in most lSyst.e,lI18 of society organisation where not Epecially banished. In ancient times, fraternity had a very limited existence. It was confined to the family or to the clan or to the tribe or some- times to the oity. It was Christianity that finst made it a principle of general application. The sermon on the Mount gives the most complete description of this great principle of cd-nduot. It is, in fact, the second great commandment summed up in the words of our Lord: "Tholl shalt 'love thy .neighbour as thyself." Here comes in the great work which the Church can do in connection with Socialism, to teach every one to carry out this great com- mandment, and prevail on us in relations of life to do to all men as we would they should do unto us. As regards the economic side of Socialism, the Church has nothing whatever to do, ana had better keep quite ole-ar of it from this aspect. A few days ago Lord Cromer most just- ly observed that if you want your proper in- fluence to plrevail; you must take care and mine) your own business and not to interfere witM what is properly the business of otherB. Now, it is emphatically not the business of the Churchi to teach economies: she had better leave the subject altogether alone to the legislator, and tihe politician, who have to deal with it. The HON. W, G. A. ORMSBY GORE, who had1 been invited to speak on the subject froon the Socialist's point of view, said he could not undertake to do that because much as he admired the high sentiments and generous fueling of justice which had marked Mr Wake- ford's words, he felt that they carried him a! little too far (laughter and cheers). The idteal of Socialism could not possibly be worked out until humanity had altered much from its pre.. sant condition (applause)- Socialism in any foran could never be realised until it embracers the whole earth- Tftie sroeaker concluded A pointed little sneech with the advice to take all the good tho" could from the Socialistic propa- ganda and eschew the evil.

St. Asaph Diocesan Conference. (Continuation from page 8). FORMING OF CHARACTER IN YOUTH Let them take a no their instance: If we under- stood the term in any worthy sense education waa nothing else than the forming of chartea iji youth. Were they going to ,leave that in the hands of a secular State? How would the secu- lar State understand its duty? It would turn them out efficient citizens, providing technical courses, seeing that its pupils were able to read, write, and think. Was that enough? The late controversy with all its bitterness had answerer* that ^question once for all by ma.king it clear that Englishmen did not wish for a purely secu- ar education.. Here Nonconformists and Church- men agreed, r for they met not as sectarians', but as. Christians. He admitted the inconsistency 0tÍ, the Noiiconformist position. Thoy wanted religious education, but they wanted a secular State. A .eecul-ar State, giving religious educa- tion!. Could, they have a greater contradiction in term?*? He had tried to indicate what a secu- tar.State would mean, some of the losses we should suffer if the establishment fell. If any- one stih hesitated, and thought we could go back fearlessly to what, after all, was the condition of the Church in its .earlier daY8, let him put yet a further consideration before him. There was one great difference between the Roman Em- pire and our own Government. The'Roman Empire was content on the whole, as long as its subjects remained loyal and quiet, to leave them to lead their own lives as they wished. It was not an interfering Government; it was "cry different from our own. The State edu- cated us forced us to be educated—interfered with the fmiry-it regulated our feeding, our housing. And its power was advancing: it was thrusting itself into, every department of our life, so that i,t became difficult at what point it did, not touch us. And if socialism was gQíng" to have. any influence on us—as it must have— the Static would playa larger paift still. Was' this alll-inyading, all-engrossing State to be religious or secular? Before he concluded, h should like to deal in advance with certain oi> i jections which might be made to his argumen p.j A; Nonconformist might say: "Yes; have a rei.wl gious State by all means, but do not establish the Anglican Church." The logical conclusion of such an argument was not to disestablish the Church of England, but to establish by its side other religious bodies. And, further, to view the matter practically, the choice was be- tween the establishment of the Church of Eng- land or no establishment at all, between a secu- lar England or the present conditions of things. Overthrow that, and they would have simply and solely acular State. Finally, he thought the Church of England really represented the reli- gious feelings of most Nonconformists, though they might not accept all its doctrines. He supposed the presence of the Bishops in the House of Lords influenced politics in the diTeetion. of Christianity; they were there prim- arily as Christians, not to represent a party, and so far as they were there as Christians he did not see how Nonconformists could object to their presence,. Again, the Coronation service was a symbol tha.t the King was not a secular but a religious prince. What objection could a Non- conformist reasonably raise to the existence of symbol? So that he felt it would be Taircr to view the establishment rather as a sign that they believed the State-must be a religious institution rather than as a mark of power to a particular denomination. He was afraid that throughout he had been dealing with ideas rather than tangible facts; lie would excuse him- by saying that, though invisible, ideas were strangely powerful things. At any rate, after being so long in the air, let him end by coming to earth. The most powerful objection to the sstab.isihjiient > wa* that though it might have a. hiigh ideal, it rarely lived up tQ it, that after many centuries of existence England was still little better than a secular State, and that we voted, and acted just as any pagan might vote and- act. If someone made this criticism it would be difficult to answer it. Still, though many said "Cut it down," the word had not yet gone forth, and the Master of the vineyard held His hand. And the best answer to tier enemies, and the best defence of the Church was :n her being, exactly what she professed to Be, a tree bearing much fruit.