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ABERYSTWYTH. RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL MOMBAY, Jua: 12TH.Preent: Mr J. R. Ja.mes, Peithyll, chairman, presiding Messrs Edward Jones, Ceulanymaesmawr Lewis Richards and John Morgan, Cwmrheidol William Morris, Cyfoethy- brenin J. B. Morgan, Cynnullmawr W. A. Miller. Issayndre Richard Jones, Llanbadarn Upper James I ones, Llanbadarn Lower Richard Jenkins, Llancynfelin Thomas Powell, Llan- fihangel Upper Evan Richards, Llanfihangel Lower: E. J. Evans, Llangwyryfon Evan Lewis, Llanrhystyd Haminiog John Jones, Llan- rhystyd Mefenydd J. E. James, Melindwr J. R. James. Parcel Canol Richard D*vie=, Tre- feirig Richard Thomas. Tirymynach Messrs Hugh Hughes, clerk David Davies, assistant clerk John Rowlands, sanitary inspector John Hughes. John Edwards, Morgan Edwards, and M. Davies, road surveyors. THE ROADS. At the outset. Mr J. B. Morgan referred to the difference in the estimates of the road surveyors for the repair of the roads during the ensuing month. The estimate of Mr John Hughes was £1:3 14s 2 1 that of Mr John Edwards, £ 19 3s 9i Mr Morgan Edwards, £ 23 3s G1 and Mr Morgan Davies. f34 17s 4d. How was it that the roads in one district required three times as much to repair them as the ronis in an- other distiictHe hoped that the surveyors could see their way clear to reduce the expenditure dur- ing the summer months.—Mr E. J. Evans pointed cut that tne estimates merely covered the wages of the workmen and the work.nen were paid at the same rate in each district.—Mr Morgan Davies, the surveyor,-said tha reitson why his estimate was larger than the others was due to the fart thst there were a..great. deai more workmen employed in his district. — Mr J. B. Morgan Cannot the number be decreased?—The Surveyor: No, because there is more work in my district than any of the others.—■ Mr J. B. Morgan thought the surveyo's should exercise care with the workmen and to see that they worked regularly and well. It would be well if they paid surprise visits.—Mr Morgan Davies (the Surveyor) You can depend ripon it that I don't advertise my visit. (Laughter.) FINANCE. Bills amounting to between f70 and jESO were passed on the recommendation of the Finance Com- mittee. FRONGOCH MINES. Mr John Morgan reported as to what the Societe Anonyme Miniere (Sirge) Belgium Company pro- posed doiog over and under the highway near Fron- goch Mines. They intended erecting tram rails which would be removed in six months also con- structing a stone culvert to convey water to the mines, erecting a stone wall. a culvert for the tram- way, and wires.—The Clerk submitted a draft of the agreement to be entered into between the Coun- cil and the Company, the latter to yay to the Council 5s a year.—On the proposition of Mr J. B. Morgan, seconded by Mr John Morgan, it was agreed to make arrangements to affix the seal of the Council to the agreement at a special meeting to be held next Monday. CWMSYMLOG ROAD. Mr John Hughes, the surveyor, referred to the road which the 'Council proposed taking over in Cwmsymlog and said Mr Pryse Pryse desired to know whether it was true he would have to main- tain the road for a period of twelve months after it was taken over by the Council.—The Chairman Of course not.—It was agreed to write to Mr Pryse Pryse that once the road was taken over, the Rural Council would be responsible. BRIDGE WANTED AT LLANGWYRYFON. Mr Morgan Davies, the road surveyor, reported that the inhabitants of the parishes of Llanrhystyd- Mefenydd, Llanrhystyd-Haminiog, and Llangwyry- fon, bad requested him to place before the Council the necessity of having a bridge over the river Beidiog in the parish of Llangwyryfon. The roads leading thither were much in use and a bridge would be a great benefit.—Replying to Mr James Jones, the Surveyor said a petition for a bridge at this place was made three years ago.—Mr E. J. Evans thought the Council would be justified in asking the Surveyor to submit an estimate of the cost of a new bridge.—Mr J. M. Morgan Let us decide in the first instance if there is need for a new bridge. It is all very well to order the Surveyor to prepare an estimate before :the necessity of a bridge is clearly proved.—The Chair- man Llangwyryfon is getting on. The sasaiwn was held there a short time back. (Laughter). —It was ultimately agreed that a committee should report upon the matter and that the Surveyor should submit an estimate of the coat of a new bridge. MAESNEWYDD ROAD. The Clerk to the County Council wrote enclosing an extract from a report of the County Surveyor with regard to the highway leading from Tynpark to Maesnewydd, and stating that the County Council could not consider the propriety of taking the road until the Rural Council had as suggested by the County Surveyor agreed .to widen the road and have it macadamised.—The Rev John Davies, who was unavoidably absent, wrote urging upon the Council to try and enter into an arrangement with the County Council. If the road was widened and macadamised and afterward taken over by the County Council, it would be a great advantage to the inhabitants in the district and to the persons who drove conveyances thereon. the trafiic on the road being considerable. If necessary, he was prepared to advocate the procura- tion of a loan, to be repaid in thirty or forty years, to carry out the improvements.—Mr John Hughes, the surveyor, said land would have to be acquired before the road could be widened.—Mr J. B. Morgan and Mr James Jones said to carry out the suggestion of the County Surveyor would mean great expense.—Mr Edward Jones said what the Rev John Davies said regarding the traffic was quite true. The road was much used by conveyances from Aberystwyth to Llyfnant Valley. So narrow was the road in some places that two conveyances could not pass one another. Something would have to be done sooner or later and it would he an advantage if the County Council and the Rural Council would co-operate.—Mr James Jones It seems to me that the County Council do not wish to improve it.—The Chairman You have struck the nail on the right mark. —Mr Evan Richards also spoke as to the road being much in use.— Ultimately, the Council resolved not to take further action in the matter at present. APPLICATIONS FROM MELINDWR. The Melindwr Parish Council wrote with regard to the reasonableness of the proposal to erect a bridge over Melindwr brook near Capel Bangor.— The Chairman, in reading the letter, read reason- ableness" as "unreasonableness,"—Mr James Jones: Is it unreasonableness ?—The Chairman (perusing the letter) No. I see it is "reasonable- ness." That is not the proper word however. The proper word is "unreasonableness." (Loud laughter.) I expressed this opinion before and I am still of the same opinion. (Laughter.)—On the proposition of Mr J. E. James, seconded by Mr James Jones-, it was agreed to appoint a committee to consider the appllcifion.—The Melindwr Parish Council also wrote with regard to the dilapidated condition of the hanrlriils of the footbridge near Ma^sbangor Factory and cf the fence alongside the leet near the same place.—It was agreed to provide handrails to the footbridge, but the Council took no action with regard to the fence. PROPOSED BRIDGE OVER CLETTWR. The C afterward considered the matter of tile propo-ed bridge over t fjletSwr river, Tre'rddol, when the Surveyor (Mr John Hughes; reported that the County Council requested to be furnished with amended plans and estimates.—Mr Edward Jones said as the County Council pro- posed contributing one-third of the expense of the proposed new bndg.jt. the request demanded their eonsid-r ition. — Mr Evan Richards concurred and proposed that the matter shoird he further con- sidered at the next meeting. In the meantime he members could consider whitt wold Le the best thing to do in the matter.—Mr Richard J3n- kin- see'iided the proposition.—The Surveyor said the Cumty Surveyor was in favour of erecting an Tun hrtdzP.-It v\ as reolved on the proposition of Mr John Morgan, seconded by Mr Evan Richards, that the Surveyor should prepare plans and an es*itnate of an iron bridge to the next meeting of tiie Council. INSPECTOR',> REPORT, The Inspector reported that he had served n-tice upon Mr Thomas Hugh Jones, Aberystwyth, to provide proper drainage arrangements for his hons in Quebec Cottages, Llanbadarn. lr Jones wrote stating that he was not responsible for the drain- age, the tenant having ten years'lease on the house, which male him responsible for repairs. rhe tenant, however, said he was a yearly tenant and that he had no lease. There were two cases of scarlet fever in the house and he had given in- structions to have the place disinfected and isolated. He a,b d for instructions.—The Inspector further reported that on visiting Gwarfeiiu, Llan- cynfelin, on May 2.3th, he found that the notice served upon the owner rf the two houses thereat last November had not be'en complied with. He wrote to the owner and he had sent a reply stating that the notice should have his ii^meiiate attention. The owner and occupier of the house at Pontllanychaiarn reported as overcrowded had informed him that the houoe would be vacated in a fortnight. He had visited Llangwyryfon and found that arrangements were being made to carry out the necessary work at Pwlldraenllw yi. and Comtnins, but nothing had beeo done at Cefncoch, Brynbeidiog, Nantcwttv fawr, Nantcwtta-fach, and Pencommius. The notice had been complied at Pencwmbeidiog. The notice served on March 18th upon the owner and occupier of Neuadd Farm, Cwmrheidol. the house not being fit for human habitation, had nut been complied with.—The Council authorised the In spector to serve further notices in some cases and to take proceedings in others. BYLAWS FOR J'EW BUILDINGS. The Clerk rep rted that the bylaws in respect of new buildings were now in operation. They had been circulated in the district.—Replying to Mr James Jones, the Clerk said plans of new buildings would now have to be submitted. In the case of elaborate repairs, plans would also have to be sub- mitted, but not in the case of slight repairs. — Mr John Morgan gave notice that he would move at the next meeting that a bylaws committee should be formed. LLANRHYSTYD WATER SUPPLY. The Clerk reported that, as lequested by the Rural District Council, he had called on Professor Altn Murray and submitted the sample of water analysed by him and also th& sample analysed by another analyst. They asked him whether it was possible for the samples to have come from the same spring. Professor Murray compared th. samples and told them that it was impossible for them to have come from the same spring. The Inspector afterward saw Mr Evans, who later on sent him the following letter :— In accord with the request of your Inspector, I visited, with him. the sources of the Llanrhystyd village water supplies. Mr Lewis, district councillor, and Mr James bein:: also present. P.vstyll-vr-Eglwys This spring, situated not far from the Church from which it takes its name, was first vis; ed. An examination cf its outlet showed presence of low forms of vegetahle life adhering to it, such as spiroiryra, See. Lnder- neath all thi" is an iron channel simihrly coated. After cleansing these, a sample was taken and sealed. My analysis of this sample proves that the water is fit for drinking pur- poses. The rate cf the supply is seventy-th e gallons per hour. I would suggest the occasional cleaning of the outlet. Ffynon Tyncwm This spring is the other source of supply and arises as a bubbling br00k from the hase of an uncultiv,ted hillock about a quar er of a mile away from the village. The well at present is exposed and a foot or so distant above the spring. I am of opinion th t when this source has been cleansed and made inaccessible to cattle or accidental pollution that this water will be of the very In-sf quality. There is abundant supply and, owing to its position, lends 'tself to a gravitation scheme for the whole population of this important village. The scheme will eost, I am told, ahout £ 150 and willll1ean an extra rate of to per year for repayment of capital and interest in thirty years. In reference to the difference in the reiultsofthe previous analyses, the Inspector informs me that the sample previously submitted (n April 22nd is the sa.me wattdTas the preserit'Pystyll.yr-Eglwys, if so, then some disturbance of the water must (have taken place. Water is tiaMe to eha <r& at certain seasons, more particutarh- in the spring ahd-eommer, when life is active and reproducing life in the animal a cf vegetable kingdom. This is very apparent in a. water whose volume is not constant.—Yours respectful] v E. J. EVANS. —The letter was read amid laughter.—The C'erk also stated that Mr Evans had sent in a bill for £110. for his last analysis.—Mr James Jones, speak- ing on the general question, asked whether the Council were doing their duty to the people living in Llanrhystyd ? They ought to provide them with a proper system of water supply. Talybont should also be provided with a proper system. It was net right or proper that people should walk miles for water. Some seven or eight years ago the Highway Board were asked to supply Llanrhystyd with water, but the people rose in arms against paying the expense of providing a proper system. The Council ought net to listen to either the people of Talyhont or Llanrhystyd who spoke against provid- ing proper systems on the ground of expense. It was high time to provide both villages with water on approved systems.—Mr J. B. Morgan pointed out that the Council had spent a lot of money on the water supply of Llanbadarn Fawr before they decided to provide a. proper system.— Mr E. J. Evans said clearly something was wrong somewhere. The analysts did not agree. More- over, the Council could not force a proper system of water supply on the people of Llanrhystyd un- less they wished it.—Mr James Jones What is our power, Mr Clerk ?—The Clerk The Council can compel them to take the water unless the source of the present supply is proved satisfactory. —Mr E..1. Evans But they say it is all right.— Mr Jame. Jones It would be an advantage in the long run if they had a proper system.—The general question was deferred for a month on the proposition of Mr John Morgan, seconded by Mr Edward Jones.—It was resolved not to pay the bill for £1 10s sent by Mr Evans, it being stated that it was suggested that he should make an in spection in order to bear out his previous report. It was proposed and seconded that the Council should refund JE1 Is paid to Professor Murray by the villagers for his analysfs.—The proposition was rejected by nine votes to four. IN COMMITTEE. The Council then resolved into committee on matters pertaining to Borth. I TOWN COUNCiL (Special Meeting), SATURDAY, JUNE 10TH.—Present: Councillor D. C. Roberts, mayor, presiding Councillor John Jenkins, ex-mayor; Aldermen Peter Jones and Captain Doughton Councillors C. M. Williams, Robert Doughton, R. J. Jones, R. Peake, E. P. Wynne. Evan Hugh James, Isaac Hopkins, and J. P. Thomas Messrs A. J. Hughes, town clerk; Rees Jones, borough surveyor James Evans, sanitary inspector, and Dr Abraham Thomas, medical officer. The TOWN CLERK said—I sent on Thursday to Mr Gibson, as I was instructed by the Council, a copy of a resolution with respect to certain allegations made by him at a public meeting held on the 17th May and enquiring of Mr Gibson whether the speech was correctly reported and if so whether his would furnish the Council with the authority for the statements and the allegations therein. I sent a copy of that resolution and the paragraph accom- panied by a letter which no doubt all the members of the Council have seen in the newspapers, and on j the Sch I received a reply from Mr Gibson to this effect-I do not know whether you wish me to read it. Captain DOUGHTON—Will you please read it out —slowly, please. Mr PEAKE-I have not seen it. ThelownClerkthen read the letters as follows :— TOWN CLERK'S LETTER. "I have been directed to convene a meet- ing of the Committee of the whole Coun- cil without delay, and if your speech referred to is correctly reported, I shall feel much obliged if you will, for the information of the Committee, furnish me with the authority and information in your possession upon which you made the serious allegations referred to. If you are incorrectly re- ported, I shall be glad if you will furnish me with the necessary corrections.—Yours truly, A. J. HUGHES. J. Gibson, Esq., Senr." MR GIBSON'S REPLY. DEAR SIR,—I am in receipt of your letter. I see from the report of the proceedings at the last Town Council, which form the subject matter of your "tetter, that Mr C. M. Williams and Captain Doughton have virtually accused mA of cowardice, of lying, and of garbling a report of my own speech in my own newspaper. I am not so dull, not are the public so dull, as not to see the object aimed at. I am fully aware of the gravity of the condi- tions which exist and I hope the public bodies interested will get them altered. They have greater means in their hands than I have, and it is necessary that constant care should be taken to keep down certain well-known evils. The official who gave me my information and asked me for my help was not an official of the Carporatiou and I do not see, therefore, what the Corporation have to do with the matter beyond see- ing that the conditions which cause the evil I have publicly referred to are as nearly 0npossible as may be. If Captain Doughton or Mr C. M. Williams had wished for information they might have asked me for it weeks ago and I would have given them it as freely as I have given it in confidence to othtr members of the Corporation. I do not think the Town Council for many reasons is the sort of body that I am disposed to entrust myself to, especially seeing that the members who spoke on Tuesday have already decided that I am guilty of offences which would, if true, render any- t ling J might say unworthy of crenence. I have uothirw to my to the Committee. I am, dear sir, with all respect tiat is due to the Council—1 (alaug'i) — Yours truly, J. GIBSON." Mr ROBERT DOUGHTON- I take it that thisi a flat J refusal of t ie Town Clerk's request. The Town Clerk asks Mr Gibson if he will specify if he has been correctly rep'Tt^d. He does not say whether he has been currently reported oi not. He does not say y- s or no to the r: quest of the Town Clerk, so I should think by that letter it is a refusal to reply and a refusal to ati-wer. The TOWN CLERK-I take it i is a tacit ad- nn-so.n of the correctness of the report. Mr ROBERT DOUGHTON—Yes, sure. Trie MAYOR—Yes and a refusal to give the in- formation, ancl also that the statement does not rc. fer in any way to the Town Council. Tha: is briefly w..at it am mils to. Captain DOUGHTON — As to the members of the Corporation who are mentioned here in the letter, wili they kindly explain more fully the particulars I of that portion of Mr Gibson's letter. Mr Gibson says in his reply disrilJctly that there are some members of the Corporation in th know. I should like t-iese members to explain before we proceed. The MAYOR—I may state quite frankly that since the meeting on Tuesday 1 saw Mr Gibson, and in confidence—absolutely ui confidence-he told me certain things upon which he based his remarks. I am not in a pod ion to state them, to repeat them iu any way. I simply state what I know and they are not things that I can in any way use. Caption DOUGHTON—Will you aliow me to ask one question ? The 1A YOR- Y U, and I presume it is a question I can answer. Captain DOCGI-ITON—Do you not think it right for you to explain, seeing that such an accusation was nut.;e. I pr. surre that Mr Gibson gaye it to you just the same as he gave it in his speech. The MAYOR—No, ro. In giving it me he told me it was in confidence and I cannot uge it. Captain DOUGHTON—But independently of that, did not your conscience tickle you at the tirne- (laughter)—seeing that there was a debate in the Council upon Mr Gibson's speech and you being in the know. Mr R. J. JONES-No. The Mayor stated that he had the conversation with Mr Gibson after the meeting of the Council. The MAYOR—I have stated distinctly, it was on Tupsday. Captain DOUGHTON—It states that members of the Council were aware of it before the meeting. Perhaps it was twelve months or more ago. The MAYOR—You will understand that I knew absolutely nothing on Tuesday when the meeting of the Council was held about it. Alderman PETER J ONES- Well, as I understand the matter, sir, at the meeting held in this hall, which has been reported, certain statements were made and those statements are made in a very dIstinct and explicit manner. I find in the report these words were used There was in this town at the present time a building where little children were done to death regularly all the year round." Well, continued Mr Jones, what I feel with regard to this matter is that it is a very serious imputa- tion and that the Council, being the responsible body for the sanitary condition of the town and, also, I hope, taking an interest in matters of a moral kind- Mr J. P. THOMAS (feelingly)—Hear, hear. Alderman PETER JONES—Should certainly put down a far as they can what appears to me to be a criminal offence. This statement having been made at a public meeting, I do not know any other course than the one pursued at the last meeting of the Council-tb try to elicit information whether this state of things exists within the borough. And Mr Hughes, as we have just heard, was instructed to write to Mr Gibson. The reply does not touch to my mind upon the question asked. Capcain DOUGHTON—Not at all. Alderman PETER JOEs-The question is this. I, there existing in Aberystwyth at the present time, and hasthere existed for a considerable period, a den of this description? If so, I think it would be only reasonable to expect that Mr Gibson, like every other man who takes interest in the well-be- ing of the town, should afford every possible assist- ance in trying to bring these people to justice. Captain DOUGHTON—Hear, hear. Able rinin PETER JONES—The statement here mace appears to be repeated in another form, because you will find a little lower down in the report of the proceedings that Mr Gibson states There were plenty of people in official positions in the town who knew the fact as well as he knew it and he tedd the meeting plainly that these people who knew this- fact were just simply hypocrites until they rid themselves of the responsibility that was before them." Captain DaUGHTON-Hear, hear. Alderman PETER JOEs-Now, having stated that certain officials in the town were cognisant of this state of things, I believe that certain members of the Council invited the officials of the Corporation to attend this meeting, and I and that three officials are present who, I presume, would have the knowledge if anyone connfeted with the Council had it, and I anticipate that they wIll give a denial to such a statement that they were aware of such a state of things existing in the town. It seems to me it would be well to know who these hypocrites are. If tbesegentlemen are aware of this state of things, and Mr Gibson appears to be aware of the fact that they are, I think it would be only his duty to assist the sanitary authority of this district in discovering it, so that we may be able to dispense with the services of any man guilty of such things. The question which devolves upon us to my mind, leaving aside all issues which may lead us astray, is do these things exist? And if they do exist, I that any person knowing it does not discharge his duty as a citizen if he does not give information and ensure proceedings being instituted against the offenders. When this statement was made I was hopeful that, an enquiry would be made and I was t0 that the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children had deputed one of their most respectable officials to visit Aberystwyth in order to enquire into the allegations that were mllde. Having seen on Thursday night this letter of Mr Gibson, which was addressed to the Town Clerk and published in Thursday evening's paper, I felt it incumbent upon me to interview the gentleman who came here representing that Society. I may say that I had a conversation of some duration with him in the presence of another gentleman connected with the police force and conjointly with that person I have reduced to writing the statement then made by Inspector New, the inspector of this Society, and with your consent I should like to read that state- ment. The statement made, as far as we were able to jot it down in an hour or so afterwards, was as follows:—"I had an interview with Mr John Gibson, senior, on the 8th June. 1899, and informed him who I was and that Mr Waugh, secretary of our Society, had sent me to Aberystwyth with the view of seeing him so as to obtain some particulars relative to the article that appeared in the South Wales papers concerning some-children being done to death at Aberystwyth. Mr Gibson said There are two rival newpapers in the town and conse- quently my opponents have tried to make out a lot of my speech. I went to the meeting in order to assist them to appoint nurses and in my speech I intended to refer to the insanitary state of the town. I did not mean any particular building. But the official informed me that children were done to death by being fed with whisky and sour milk. They were the children of tramps and that the officials knew it, but they would not do their duty." Captain DOUGHTON—Then he acknowledges it. Mr PETER JONES-If I am not taking up your time I should like to point out the difference between the speech and the statement. In the speech it is said There was in this town at the present time a building where little children were done to death regularly all the year round. He knew that to be a fact." Here in his statement to the Inspector it is—" An official informed me that children were done to death by being fed with whisky and sour milk." Captain DOUGHTON-Well, well. Alderman PETER JONES (continuing to quote) They were the children of tramps and that the officials knew it, but they would not do their duty." Continued Mr Jones-Now the difference appears to me a very distinct one between the al- legation made and the explanation given, and be- fore we proceed to read further, I think, really, as I said before, that the least thing we could expect from Mr Gibson, if in the heat of the moment carried away with his eloquence he made a state- ment which over-stepped the mark, that he should have the manliness to come forward and say There has been some ambiguity and my intention was not to say there was in Aberystwyth a den for doing away with children." The Inspector also I stated I then said, Will you please localise the place where the children were so treated ana also the official's name so as to assist me to pursue my enquiries ? Mr Gibson reptied, 'I shall not divulge the name of the official, as he has dead for about twelve months. I did not refer to any particular building and will not tell you anything further. You cannot now do anything as the children are dead and you can tell Mr Waugh that everything will now be alright. (A laugh.) You see the officials do not carry out their duty. Look at that cask' there obstructing. If that was in front of my place I should at once be summoned." To hark back, continued Mr Peter Jones, some of us are supposed to be biassed, and Mr Gibson does not condescend to give us information, but here is a society formed to assist suffering children and put a stop to cruel- ties supposed to be perpetrated on them. Here is a person supposed to be independent who occupies a very high position in his department. I may say he has been ten or twelve years in the detective department in London and, I believe, for ten or twelve years has served in this Society, so he is a man of considerable experience, and further, he stated ti Mr Gibson that if he feared any conse- quences from the information imparted that he would relieve him from that position. He would make ecquiries and if the facts were as stated, the Society would take the responsibility of instituting proceedings and take the responsibity of any course they pursued. The Inspector further stated that Mr Gibson appeared to be very much against the authorities and anxious to fiud fault with everyone, but when pressed to point out tilir shortcomings, he would not give any. About six p.m. on the 8th June", the Inspector stated, I accompanied P.S. Phillips round the common lodging-houses and back streets of the town and found everything 61ean and iu good order. As far as I cm see the sanitary condition of the town is excellent The cleanliness of the common lodging-houses compared favourably with any plac., I have ever seen." Now, the speaker went on, in regard to the enquiry as to the place where children were being done to death, this gentleman prosecuted his enquiries as to the n'imber of deaths which have taken place in common lodging-houses during the past four or five years and he makes thisstatemcut with regarrl to that: Ifound that deaths rarely occur in these houses. At these houses I visited, three children only have died withi.t the last five ysars. Of these, one was very ill on his arrival in town. Another was the child of the ocuipier. Thi child was medic ally atten dcd and certified to have died from inflammation." The MAYOR—From inflammation Alderman PETER JONES—Yes He gave me more detailed information. One was the child of a milit aman which was suffering at the oime he came to Aberystwyth. It was attended by a medical man of the town and eventually succumbed to bronchitis and inflammation. Another, the child of the occupier, who was ill for sometime, was also medically attended and there was a case of a still- born child and there were two medical men in that so those are the three cases referred to. Mr J. P. THOMAS — Were those in bepuate houses or in one ? Alderman PETER JONFS—Two in one house and one in the ot. The Inspector having very care- fully euquired, the result that he has arrived at is to the following effect. :—Owing to the report that appeared in the papers, I was sent here specially to investigate the matter and I am glad to say that the allegation is absolutely without any foundation." Mr J. P. THOMAS and Mr ROBERT DOUGHTON— Hear, hear. Alderman PETER JOE- That is the testimony of Inspector New, one of the officials of this Society, It seems to me that it requires no comment. Here are the facts. A certain statement is made by Mr Gibson. He is required to furnish information to the Council and here is his reply. An independent authority came here to make enquiry and this is the result of his judgment and I think it is quite superfluous to add any remarks of mine on the allegation and the answer to the same. Mr J. P. THOMAS (knocking the table jubilantly) —Hear, hear. The MAYOR—Is there anything further ? Captain DOUGHTUN-I think the least thing the Council should do is to pass a vote of thanks to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children for their prompt action in sending one of their chief inspectors here to investigate this —— Well, I can- not get hold of a word. The MAYOR—This statement. Captain DOUGHTON—And I propose that the heartiest thanks of the Council be given to Mr Waugh. The MAYOR—Well, I will take that now. Will anyone second Captain Doughton's proposition ? Mr PEAKE—I will second it. Mr ROBERT DOUGHTON—Don't you think, Mr Mayor, that it would be well while the officials are here, that they might be asked —— Mr R. PEAKE—As far as I understand those officials have been interviewed by Inspector New. The MAYOR—Yes, but of course the matter is in your hands entirely. Do everything you re- quire. Mr J. P. THOMAS—In the face of wba"; we have heard aud what we know I think we ought to do Mr J. P. THOMAS—In the face of wha we have heard and what we know I think we ought to do something in this matter. I do not think we ought to leave it drop just here. It has a very important bearing upon our town and our officials and upon us as members of the Council. I think Mr Gibson ought to be called upon in some way or other to give us an apology or a full statement admitting his errors or in some way meeting the Council and do- ing away and mitigating the harm he has already done. I understand that the Ecandal has reached large towns some distance from here and they are there talking about Aberystwyth as being the best health resort, and chaffing us in the matter. They say, "Your children are being done to death at Aberystwyth. You are cracking up Aberystwyth as the best watering place in Wales and there you have such a den carried on there that we really cannot send our peop'e there." In the face of that [ think some action ought to be tiken. It we can- not as a corporate body take action we ought to get someone else in power to do so, or get the Local Government Board to deal with Mr Gibson in the proper and right spirit. I think, perhaps, they can do a grrat deal of good in that way. They may bring Mr Gibson to his senses because it is amply proved to night that everything he says is not true. If he fails as he has done and will not give the in- formation, he ought to be subpoenaed to a greater court. The TOWN CLERK—I do not know whether I should be intruding by saying, I certainly would not advise the Council to adopt that course inas- much as there is no charge made against any of the Corporation officials and the matter does not affect the Corporation as a corporation in any way. I do not think such action could lead to any result. Mr J. P. fliOMAS-I am sorry to hear that. The TOWN CLERK—Of courser give it as my own opinion that is all. Mr J. P. THOMAS—It is a very cowardly thing of Mr Gibson that he does not come forward like a man. The TOWN CLERK—Of course, as to that I do not say a word. It is only as regards the legal position of the Council. Mr R. PEAKE—I would suggest and I would like to propose that the Mayor should report to the several newspapers—the Mayor and Town Clerk certainly, signed by the Mayor, stating that this en. quiry has been held in regard to Mr Gibson's state- ment and to the best of our ability and knowledge failed to get any more information from Mr Gibson and therefore conclude that the whole thing is un- founded. I think that is the only step open to us to take. I certainly do not see, as Mr Arthur Hughes as stated, that we have any claim on Mr Gibson. The MAYOR—All this is in puplic and there will be a full report in the papers of what we do. Mr PEAKE—Do you not think it better to come from the body itself. The MAYOR—It will be fully reported in the papers. Mr J. P. THOMAS—Can we give any guarantee that such statements will not be made yearly in future ? The MAYOR-I do not see how we can deal with that, Mr Thomas. You see we have the Town Clerk's letter to Mr Gibson and his reply. Those are in the hands of the public and there will be a report of this meeting. Mr ROBERT DOUGHTON-I will propose that the Mayor should ask the officials now to give their denial to it. I suppose they cannot but deny it and while they are here I think they should have an opportunity of corroborating the statement made by the Inspector. MR PEAKE—That is begging the question, that, sir. The TOWN CLERK—If I may intrude for one moment, the statement made by Alderman Jones has been made that the several officials have been interviewed. They are all here andiif the statement re- ported by Alderman Jones is correct I suppose Alderman PETER J oEs-I may say further I do not know if I said the Chief Constable, the Super- intendent, the Sergeant and the officers of the police have been asked and they state emphatically there is no such a thing existing in Aberystwyth. On their authority they state it. Dr THOMAS, the medical officer-I should like to say a word. I should be willing to give any infor- mation in my power if Mr Gibson wanted any in- formation in the matter. I believe that the death returns that we have will give Mr Gibson every opportunity to prove if can by anymeans his statement. It is \1Y duty as medical officer of health to analyse all deaths that occur in Aber- ystwyth during the year. I have to put the deaths in the different ages and classify the deaths under different headings. I can say this, that the infant mortality of Aberystwyth last year was 114 per thousand of the population that -of England was 166. A death or two as alleged by Mr Gibson would alter the statistics immensely, but there is not the slightest ground for supposing that. Any information I can give I will willingly give to eluci- date this enquiry, but I do not think for one moment there is such ground for that charge. I emphatically deny it on behalf of the officials. As regards the common lodging houses. I took the Inspector of the Local Government Board around the common lodging houses. He said, I never saw such common lodging houses outside Aber- ystwyth." My quarterly and annual reports refer to the excellent condition of the common lodging houses. One of the deaths referred to as occurring in a common lodging house I attended to pro- fessionally and I can speak well of the condition and cleanliness of the common lodging houses. Besides speaking as an official, I should like to speak also on behalf of the medical practitioners of Aber- ystwyth. With all their rivalry and differpnees of opinion, I do not think for one moment that one of them would cloak over mischief like this. I think they would all be willing and glad to bring it to official notice. I also say that on bohalf of myself as medical officer of health and officials generally. There is not tne least possible chance of there being any truth in the allegation of Mr Gibson. Captain DOUGHTON-I made it my business to ascertain the deaths at the Workhouse. The Workhouss building is outside the boundary of the borough and I find that only seven deaths have occurred at the Workhouse for the past eleven years of children under two years of age and two of those were stillborn. Mr C. M. WTLLTAMS—I should like to ask the Mayor if he will kindly ask the members of the Council if they have had any information whatever from Mr Gibson. The Mayor has at once stated that since last Tuesday's meeting Mr Gibson has given him certain information in confidence. From the reply he published you may imply that he gave information to more than one member. He states, "If Captain Doughton or Mr C. M. Williams had wished for information they nvght have asked for it weeks ago and I v ould have given them it as freely as I have given it in coufulence to other members of the Corporation." I should feel obliged if you, Mr Major, will ask each member. The MAYOR—Very well will any member say. Captain DOUGHTON—I have asked the same question before. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—I think possibly we may as well have the thing asked and answered because some members may say" I did not say anything, but if I was asked I would say." The I A ynr: then asked each member separately and all denied receiving any information from Mr Gibson. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—I feel that, if all the mem- bers of the Council were here it wou d be the same, and we are bound to come to the conclusion that there is no member of the Corporation who has been made acquainted with the terrible state of thiugs or it would be his duty in some way or o her to take action with the view of revealing it and putting an end to it. We have a large num- ber of the Council here present and I feel sure it would be the same if all were present. I think it is one of the gravest charges that has ever bsen made against any town in the whole country. AI. derman Jones has read to you a portion of the speech which, if it is correct, is one of the most terrible stc'.te of things that I should say could exist in any civilised country. Mr Jones stated that possibly Mr Gibson might just in a moment when he was eloquent have gone a little bit be- yond what he anticipated but here we all find on June 2nd, in a column in which I think Mr Gibson takes a great deal of pride, and I suppose if Mr Gibson is ever in a good mood it is in writing this column, he repeats practically every word that he does in the speech. Tne report, I suppose, may be I taken as correct, because he says practically the same thing in his letter— '• little children are surely done to death." That is after the report had appeared in the other paper. He appeared to be anxious to repeat the statement. In fact, he goes on, The facts are well-known, for they were given me by an official who did not confine his in- formation to me. 1 myself have made statements in the presence of responsible persons." N ow. I be- lieve that fully bears out the statement he made at the previous meeting Can it be possible "that we have amongst us a single individual who could re- main silent when he knows that these most terrible and horrible things were carried on-little, help- less children being actually put to death ? A building, as he states, in this town where they are put to death. It was our duty, as a Corporation, to take the earliest opportunity of asking Mr Gibson to verify that statement. We have no right to make any comment upon the statement until we have given Mr Gibson an opportunity of either putting the information in writing or at- tending a meeting and stating the full facts to us. Possibly you will pardon me for making a comment upon a portion of his letter. I an not dealing with any statement that Mr Gibson writes in his paper. His notes or articles I do not wish to make com- ments upon but here is his letter which has been sent back to the Town Clerk wherein I am sorry to say he starts with three falsehoods—three distinct falsehoods. The MAYOR—Mr Williams you are discussing this matter. Mr WILLIAMS-I am bound to defend myself and put matters right when false charges are made against me. The MAYOR—I only mentioned it. Of course you can go on I won't stop you. Mr C. M. WITAIAMS—It (STATES here that I accused Mr Gibson of cowardice and lying and garbling the report of his own speech in his own newspaper. Now, gentlemen, did I say a word at the last meeting of the Council ? Did I charge Mr Gibwn in any shape or form? I was particularly careful not to. I simply seconded the proposal that the Council should form themselves into committee to investigate the whole charges. I saw that they were the most serious, the gravest charges ever brought, and it was our duty to in- vestigate the matter and give Mr Gibson an oppor- tunity of making good his statements. Now, I see, in the face of that I am charged here with having charged Mr Gibson with three things. I say these things are ab-olute falsehoods. The public can read the report of what I said at the last Council meeting, and they will see I am correct. I must confess it is difficult for a man to coolly discuss the matter when a person deliberately states three dis- tinct lies about him and then goes on to say that the public are not to be gulled. No, that is the only pleasing feature I have in my mlll(i-that the public will not be gulled, and if the public read the staterrent they will know that I am innocent of the charges, as the Mayor is. At the end of his letter he states All the members who spoke on Tuesday have adready decided that I am guilty of offences which would, if true, render anything I might say unworthy of credence." I had not arrived at any conclusion on Tuesday. I was only too glad to give Mr Gibson an opportunity of revealing what appeared to be one of the most terrible things that could exist in any town and the very start of his reply to the Town Clerk is evasive, ignoring the whole question except charging me with stating three things I never did say. I appeal to Mr Mayor if I said one word that could be construed in that way. I have the Cambrian News report here and I challenge anyone to say that it could be so construed. I came here, as I do to-night, perfectly unbiassed. I did not come here without reading the letter in the Cambrian News and I was surprised to find it in the Cambrian News without being read first in the Council. I do not mind that, however, as I believe the Council courts enquiry. Of course our town is not a paradise, but I do not believe it is possible for a building such as Mr Gibson describes to exist. I believe in the report read by Mr Peter Jones. Mr Gibson now says they were killed by whisky and other things and that they are tramps' children. If so, they must be in a common lodging-house, but we have an official statement that only three deaths have occurred at common lodging houses during the past five years. I may say that I took the trouble myself of going down to the Registrar's house and asking to see the register of deaths and I only find two. Possibly the third w s a little beyond the five years. Now, if the children have been put to death by any pro- cess whatever, surely they must have been buried. I take it otherwise we may have some terrible reve- lations one of these days. I don't know anything about the cold flags, but if the children have not been buried they must have been put somewhere else. The more we consider it, the graver it be- comes. Mr Gibson admits the gravity of it and he says the public bodies will now do their duty but the Town Council is precisely in the same position as it was before. The Council had no information before and they have no information now. It is the duty of every citizen to give information and to put down anything wrong. If sanitary matters are not right it is the duty of any ratepayer to point it out, for even officials cannot be everywhere and the Corporation are anxious to remedy matters. I have been at a large number of watering places and I go to the worst places that they have--(laughter)-and the worst place in Aber- ytswyth is almost a paradise as compared to what there are in other towns. The more we think of the statement the more we seethe evil effect it must have on the town. You may say what is the use of making an effort to advertise Aberyswyth. to get the town to have a band to entertain visitors, when you have statements such as that made by Mr Gibson going broadcast. I think it has been in an immense number of papers with the heading "Aberystwyth Scandal." I am told of places where the people were running out thinking great murders were being done. (Laughter.) I think a great wrong has been done to the town of ¡ Aberystwyth. Mr Gibson raises the whole ques- ¡ tion and there are insinuations and inuendoes in it, but no plain statements. I believe Mr Gibson says 1 he is anxious to make Aberystwyth a great place. It is a very queer way of making it great I must say. I believe there are some people who will believe the l statements and then in the summer I have notthe slightest doubt that other watering places will make ( capital of it and the ratepayers of the town will suffer heavily. I think the only mistake we made was not to call a public meeting as soon as the 1 report appeared, but it was left in the ordinary I way and we went into it without any feeling and J with the endeavour to get at the actual state of things. We cannot do more than repudiate it by saying that the Corporation, most of them, knew T i U8eS fairly.we11- I, personally, can claim that 1 know nearly every household in Aberystwyth. I think I have been to every house in Aberystwyth time after time and there is not a house that could answer to this description, a house where little children are put to death regularly. It is enough to make our blood run cold. If he made the state- I ment on the impulse of the moment at the meet- ing, bat cold-bloodedly and deliberately he repeated the statement in his paper that children are surely put to death. Before, we were not aware that it was not an official belonging to the Town Council who gave him the information. Must a man be vague in this way ? If we believe the statement this state of things has been going on for years and Mr Gibson has been enjoying himself. The moment he makes it public we take action and all we can get is an evasive answer. I only wish that the Council could go further in this matter. Mr J. P. THOMAS—Hear, hear. Mr WILLIAMS—To put a stop to this once for all. We know the past history of these matters. About the beginning of this year we saw in the Cambrian Aetvs—I think the heading is sufficient, I won't go further- Municipal Murders." But we are the only municipal authority at Aberystwyth and at the end of that article he says We believe that the negligent local authorities are liable for heavy damages for these deaths and sooner or later action will be taken by the relatives of the sufferers." I only point out that the heading is so striking. A large number spoke of it at the time, but nothing was so definite as this ;—but now we come to this and I believe it is our duty to say that there is not a shadow of ground for making these state- ments-that it is absolutely incorrect. But there is one other thing. We have done this but I am sorry we cannot undo a great deal of the evil of this business. We shall not know directly who has ceased coming to Aberystwyth, but would you if you were an utter stranger come to Aberystwyth, and you know with the keen competition we have to face that it behoves us to be above board in th's matter. I rlo not know how the Mayor feels it1 th's business. If the case is so-terrible as stated feel confident that the Mayor would not rest hi head on the pillow without taking some action t let some official know i^. If the Mayor is possesse of the information he doeq not look alarmed. The MAYOR—Mr Williams must not draw infe- ences. I have stated my position truly andl think you must be fair to me. You must not drw any inferences. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—If you say I am unfair The MAYOR—I do not say you are. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—It is not my desire or vish to be unfair to anybody. 1 he MAYOR—Tne only thing I cin say is tfct it is so. i have had a certain statement from Mr Gibson given me in confidence. Captain DOUGHTON—As mayor or as a man The MAYOR —Well Captain DOUGHTON—Wrell, if it is as mrfor it should be given in Council and should notbe in confidence. The MAYOR—I have given you my positici. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—The Mayor has acted fairly and given it without being asked. The MAYOR-I think in common fairnes to Mr Gibson I may say that he d3 not know that the particular part of his speech was not appearing in his paper. I hink Mr Hall can bear me out in that if he is asled. He made the speech at a meeting at which thre were representatives of other papers. Mr R. J. JONES—I suppose, Mr Mayo; you did cot receive any information from Mr GDson that was in opposition to what Alderman ones has read ? The MAYOR—Oh, I cannot say that. Mr R. J. Joslis-I am excedingly iorry that you should have uttered it at all, becaue in your capacity as Mayor I am sorry you shoulcsay that a certain statement has been made. Y Ql have had the statement by the Inspector from Ca'diff and as far as Mr Gibson has stated it seems here are no grounds for the allegations, and I fee as member of the Council very sorry indeed thit anything should be confided to you as mayor of he town. The MAYOR—It was not confided tone as mayor. Captain DOUGHTON-I am elad to h ar that. The MAYOR—It is simply an iBcidelt-a detail— and I shall be out of this quickly. Mr R. J. JONEs-It is rather a serious matter for the town. The MAYOR-Well, I put myself in your hands entirely. I should be very pleasedto retire out of this position. Mr R. J. JONES. Mr C. M. WILLIAVIS, and others —Oh, no. The MAYOR—That is my position. I am entitled to he quite free. I hope you will acctpt it as such. I cannot vote in this matter. I havt simply told you my position clearly. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—I think someresolution on the part of the Town Council ought to je drawn úp, that private enquiry and public enquiy have been made and that we who know the locaity know all the circumstances. I think the resohtion should say that having investigated the maiter we feel there is no ground whatever for Tiaking the allegation and of course we regret tha, Mr Gibson has not complied with the wish of tie Council in frankly supplying us with the informaSon in order tha.t we may contradict the terrible piinting that has been done. Mr R. J. JONES—He admits that he ¡,annat give it ttre Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—It is always i very sate thing to make charges and then decline o give in- formation. The MAYOR—That is his position. I co not wish to defend Mr Gibsou as to his course of actioo. That is the statement and he has to take the responsibility. He has given me certain informa- tion, but of course it cannot be used. Mr C. M. WTILLIAMS—I am sure you want to be fair to me and I want to be fair to you Am I (referring to the statements in Mr Gibsons letter) to be charged with this ? Am I guilty? The MAYOR—I cannot help it. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—If I am guilty, I am utterly unfit to sit by you anywhere. If I lad said those things you would have stopped me. The MAYOR—I did not stop anybody. I Hd not stop Captain Doughton. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—You have here charged deliberately —— Captain DOUGHTON—Did you ascertain, Alder- man Jones, from the Inspector whether the Society intended taking this matter further? Alderman PETER JONES—What the Inspector says. is that there is not a tittle to justify the Society taking this matter further. I think we may pass a resolution of this kind—that certain statements were made by Mr Gibson alleging (giv- ing the words). The Council after that requested Mr Gibson to furnish particulars on which the above statement was made. This Mr Gibson re- fused to do. I think a record of that kind and that we therefore beg to record the strongest dis- approval of Mr Gibson's conduct in making that allegation and refusing to give evidence bearing on the same. I think we all agree on that. I quite understand your position, Mr Mayor. You met him in your private capacity and not in yotir official capacity as mayor and therefore the con- versation which took place was of a confidential nature. It was made as such and accepted a8 such and I am sure will be retained in your hands as such. But as far as we understand matters, certain statements are made. Mr Gibson is asked to assist us in giving evidence on that subject. This Mr Gibson has refused to do. I think the reasonable result would be that we record aur dis- approval of Mr Gibson's conduct in making these serious allegations and refusing to support them when desired to do so. I therefore move a resolu- tion to that effect. Mr C. M. WILLIAMS—I should like to add that the Medical Officer and other officials have been making enquiries as well as members of the Coun- cil, so we are fully justified in going further than you have stated. Alderman PETER JONES-I do not know whether ycu could divide it into two—namely, the first portion recording what you consider Mr Gibscn's conduct in the matter. iou may say the investi- gation, has been made by officials and the Inspector and, giving the result of that, that there is ab- solutely no foundation for the allegation. Mr ROBERT DOUGHTON-Yes, yes divide it in- to two. Very well. The MAYOR-I should like to point out one thing. That is so as far as the information you have got to-night; but, of course, it does not follow that Mr Gibson has not had some foundation. Alderman PETER JONES-All I say is that Mr Gibson has been afforded an opportunity and that he refused to give the information. If he has got some mysterious information that he wishes to keep we have no cognizance of that. We can- not be cognizant. All we are cognizant of is that a certain speech was made in this hall. We, as the representative body of this town, immediately we became acquainted with that statement, required Mr Gibson as a citizen, and as we might expect from his writing that he took a keen interest in the matter—we desired him to furnish any in- formation without taking any responsibility him- self. If he would only give information in the proper way to the police authority or to this Society they would take the responsibility. Those two things are explicit. He refused to give in- formation to enable us to sift the matter thoroughly and under those circumstances we express strong disapproval of Mr Gibson's conduct in the matter and, in a subsequent resolutiOn, our confidence that after the investigation by the Inspector that the allegations are perfectly groundless. The MAYOR—Then you propose that? Alderman PETER JONES.—Or I will second Mr Williams MRC. M. WILLIAMS—I will second Alderman Jones's proposition. The proposition having been agreed to without contradiction, Mr ROBERT DOUGHTON asked if it would be sent to the papers ? Alderman PETER JONES presumed the papers who had referred to the matter would publish the resolutions, and the meeting separated. SCHOOL BOARD, TUESDAY, JUNE 13TH.—Pre- sent: Mr Peter Jones, chairman, presiding Mrs Griffith, Waterloo; Mr Wm. Thomas, Mr T. B. Hall Mr Roberts, clerk Mr Saer, headmaster and Mr Lloyd, attendance officer. Miscellaneous.— Miss Richards, ex-Po r. in the girls department, applied for an increase of salary from jE35 to f40 per annum and it was agreed to place the application on the next agenda.—It was agreed to write to the different Sunday schools in I the tow suggesting that in future the outings should fe held in one week so as not to interfere with scbol attendance. Attendance, it was stated, was seously affected when the excursions were spread per several weeks. Sciete and Art.—A meeting of the Science and Art Coimittee was held when, in consideration of the lars amount of work and correspondence. it was agreecto increase Mr Roberts's salary from jE7 10s to r PETY SESSIONS, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 14TH.— Befre C. M. Williams and Thomas Griffiths, Esrs. Wndering Abroad.—David Evans, Treharris, Glarorgan, collier, was charged by Alfred Thomas, Abeystwyth, stationmaster, for having wandered abrtd and slept in a railway carriage on June 13th. Defndant was fined 2s 6d. laintenance. —Thomas Vaughan. relieving officer, Abrystwyth. charged George Evans, 18, Wood. lari-terrace, New Tredegar, Monmouth, for having nelected to maintain his mother, Hannah Evans, wb is chargeable to the Aberystwyth Union.— Dfendant having paid costs, the case was with- diwn.—James Phillips, Northgate-street, Aber- ytwyth, labourer, was also charged with a similar arnce.—The Relieving Officer stated he saw de- fndant on Friday night, but he refused to pay, f-cause one of his other brothers did not pay any- iiing. The was adjourned for a fortnight for he appearance of his brother, defendant to pay 6s Which were due. ) Vaccination. — John Griffiths, Portland-road, Aberystwyth, was summoned by the Vaccination Officer for haxing negledeà to have his chiln, Anne Griffiths, vaccinated.—The mother's sister appeared and ttated that the child was ill and the mother was also il1.-The case was adjourned for a week for defendant to produce a doctor's certificate.—John Williams, Gogerddaii-cottages, joiner, was also summoned for having neglected to have his child Mary Elizabeth vaccinated.—Defendant was fined 10s and costs. Exemption, — W. H. Hollier, Bridge-street, ap- plied for an exemption unJ r the Vaccination Act for his child, Emily May.-The application was granted.





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