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MARRIAGE WITHOUT MEANS.

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ings of the present school being conducted in private. At all the schools in the county, the proceedings of the Governing Bodies were car- ried on in public. Further, the administration was practically in the hand of one sect, and that sect dominated by a gentleman who was then present. The arrangement was open to grave objections and speaking for himself, he would never send a child of his there. He would send him fifty miles away first. He was only ex- pressing the feelings of a large number of Non- conformists (hear, hear). The Warden said his contention was, that the Ruthin school was practically in a different position to the Intermediate Schools, which drew their resources partly from Government Grant and partly from the rates; and he there- fore said that in schools of the position of the Ruthin school, the meetings of the governors or trustees were always held in private. Many delicate questions might arise from time to time, and it was desirable that they should be discussed in private. He did not think the question had been discussed by the Governors, and he could only give his views as the chair- man. It had been said that there was only 'two Nonconformists on the Board of Governors, but there were three. The Mayor: One of the three always goes with the majority. The Warden Never mind; he is a Noncon- formist. I am speaking facts, and that is quite sufficient for the Nonconformists to see that no wrong is dose to the children of Nonconfor- mists. At the meeting of the Grammar School Governors, I asked the three Nonconformist gentlemen then present if they had anything to complain of as regard the administration of the school from a religious point of view. They said No, we have no complaint to make what- ever.' The only remark they made was that the Nonconformists were not sufficiently repre- sented. Now the Assistant Commissioners has told us that this is a Church School with a Con- science Clause. If that is a correct description of the school, I contend that it is not at all unreasonable that the majority of the Govern- ors should be members of the Church of Eng- land. I further wish to say that the school wax founded by a Dean of the Church, the next benefactor was a bishop, and the third bene- factor, 100 years ago, was a clergyman, and in j resuscitating the school, out of the £ 3,300 sub scribed for the new building fund, £ 3,000 was subscribed by Churchmen, who subscribed the never contemplating that the Welsh Act would come into existence, or that any attempt would be made to bring the school ander the sphere of the Welsh Act; but that it would be conducted upon liberal principles as a Church School, while at the same time, the children of Nonconformists should not be instructed in the principles of the Church of England. At the present time, as a matter of fact, there is a son of at least one Nonconformist minister in the school. He is allowed to go to chapel on Sunday, and is, Hot instructed in any of the principles of the Church of England. Besides this boy, there are children of other Nonconformists, and full liberty is givsn them to attend chapels on Sun- day. In faet, the schoel is conducted in the most fair and liberal manner so much so, that yesterday I challenged the Nonconformists pre- sent to raise any objection whatever aa to the administration of the school, and they could not do so. I contend, in addition to that, that the report of the Oxford and Cambridge Board, although the school was examined upon a higher standard than is usually applied to the Inter- mediate Scchools, is admirable. Therefore, I think my friends the Nonionf ormists-I believe I have some friends among them—have no ground of complaint from a religious point of view in regard to Ruthin School. Miss Gee: What is the proportion of Non- conformists on the Governing Bodv ? The Warden Fifteen is the whole number. Miss Gee One of the three is a Conservative Nonconformist. The Warden I cannot answer for any man's politics. Mr. Powell; No Nonconformist has ever been elected a co-optative Governor. The Chairman said they had cause to com- plain of the way in which they had been trea- ted in connection with this matter. They had proceeded all along with the entire approval of the iCharity Commissioners, and then the Ruthin Grammar School was thrown out ef the scheme by the House of Lords. The Warden now complained of their action, although really we included the Grammar School, because they had a right to take hold of it, for the reason that the Governors of that school themselves placed it in a position which ap- peared contrary to the intention of the old deed, and they therefore ought to submit to the consequences of their own action. The Joint Education Committee did all they could to meet the wishes of the Ruthin Gram- mar School as represented by the Warden, but no manner of conditions could be arrived at which would be satisfactory to both sides, and he thought it was an unnecessary loss of time: to deil-with tiis question as to what was, and what is, and what might be in the future. If they remained there until Christmas, they .would not beone inch nearer its solution. Mr. Powell: Concession after concession was made, and the Warden accepted them at the time with very great gratitude. The Warden: No, no. The Commissioner The Warden disclaims gratitude. Proceeding, the Commissioner said that the objections to the administration of the Grammar School, which he had so far heard, were rather general than particular. They did not mean to say that under its own scheme the Grammar School was badly conducted. The Chairman We say nothing upon this question at all. What we do say is, that we have a right to an Intermediate School at Ruthin-and we claim our right. The Commissioner said that under his in- structions he must ask them whether they com- plained of the admistration of the Grammar School. It had been suggested to him that there was one ground of complaint, viz., that the Governing Body did not fairly represent all the persons interested in education in the dis- trict. He accepted that. The only other ob. jection he had heard was a general one made by the chairman, viz., that the Nonconformists were not satisfied with any form of adminis- tration which would at all resemble that of the existing Grammar School. That he took to be a general objection. It did not apply to this school in particular it was a general objection to the system. The Chairman Another objection is, that the Head Master must be a clergyman. The Commissioner: YeE. 10 Mr. Powell: Speaking educationally, what we contend is this, that justice will never be done from an educational standpoint in Ruthin until the School Governing Body is placed upon a broad basis. Where the Governing Body is established on a broad basis, you will tind the members going up by leaps and bounds, as has been the case at Wrexham. The Warden That means that Nonconform- ist gentlemen keep their boys away to make complaints. The Commissioner: In that sense, the exist- ing Grammar School does not command the confidence of those who give their sons a first grade education. It has been suggested to me that the difficulty is in keeping up a first grade character; and it has been also suggested, that the increase at Wrexham has been in pupils who are not competent to obtain a first grade education. The Mayor said the Warden had referred to what had occurred on the previous day at a private meeting, and he (the Mayor) did not think that what he said should be allowed to pass and leave a false impression with regard to the Nonconformist gentlemen upon that body, and to whom he gave a challenge as to whether they knew of any defects in the man- agement of the school. He went fully into the question before the Commissioner on the pre- vious day; and, for that reason, be had so far refrained from speaking at the conference. As a Governor of 15 years standing in connection with the Grammar School, he would say that, generally speaking, he had been very well satisfied indeed but that arose almost entirely from the fact that they had a good and wise headmaster—a man who had not taken advan- tage of the poy/ers which he had under the j jseheme to cause an inequality between the boys ] of different religious denominations in the dis- I trict. He had never done so, to his knowledge. But there were two main objections which Nonconformists had: and until these were removed, Nonconformists in the district would never be satisfied. The Grammar School, al- though conducted liberally and well now, was a Denominational School; and a master could be appointed at any time who might cause the school to become really burdensome to a large proportion on the community. The other, and he believed, the main question now was, as to the management. As had been already said, there were 15 Governors and out of that num- ber, only two really represented the Noncon- formists of the district. He should like it to be clearly understood that the Nonconformists of the district had no enmity to the Grammar School-they were proud of the School as such, and would rather see that School under liberal management—a management that the Noncon- formists as part of the community could feel confidence in, than have another school estab- lished in Ruthin, which might never become, perhaps, a very efficient school, and would dimmish very much the success of the present school. That would mean two inefficient schools as against one efficient and successful school. The Nonconformists would be very well satisfied, in his opinion, with the Grammar School, provided the Charity Commissioners could devise some means of revising the scheme under which the Grammar School could be placed under a thoroughly popular Governing Body. He thought that would go very far to- wards satisfying the requirements of the Non- conformists of the district. He did fully be- lieve-and he thought he knew the feelings of the Nonconformists—that if they were refused a new school, and if no change was made in the management of the Grammar School, the con- sequence would be that the Nonconformists who had hitherto sent their children to the School, would send them to other parts of the county. And, therefore, they, as Nonconfor- mists, would lose the advantages of a higher education now within their reach, and the town would lose, financially speaking, the ad- vantages of the grant which were now secured to them. The Chairman: Are you willing that the school should continue as a Church School? The Mayor Certainly not. The Commissioner But, leaving the scheme exactly as it is, in every other respect, a Church school with a conscience clause, would the Nonconformists be satisfied if a popular governing body was formed? I think you suggested yesterday, that that would go a can- siderable way towards satisfying them. The Mayor: That is what I said yestex day. Mr. Powell: I have no doubt it would go a considerable distance. The Chairman Are we to understand that you, Mr. Mayor, say that the Nonconformists of this district would be satisfied with this school as a Church school under any form of management ? The Mayor I say it would go a considerable distance towards removing their opposition. The Commissioner: What you mean is that there would still be considerable disatisfaction; but that it would, not be so acute. That you want this school under the Welsh Act; but that, if you cannot get it, you are prepared to accept the existing Grammar School with a modified governing body. The Chairman No, certainly not. I The Commissioner said he must ask the chairman to be good enough to allow him to put his question to the Mayor. It was a point to which he attributed some importance, if they would allow him to say so, and he also set same value upon the Mayor's opinion. The Mayor said he certainly should not be satisfied without the removal of the Conscience Clause, and the making the school a thoroughly undenominational one. He wished to say then no more and no less than he said the previous day namely, thab the bringing of the school under a thorough popularly constituted gov- erning body, where every section of the com- munity would have fair representation, would go a long way towards, removing the objec- tion. The Commissioner: You would prefer that to the establishment f the two boys' schools. The Chairman intervened, and objected to the manner he had put the question. The Commissioner, addressing the chairman, said It is a question of compromise, and what you would prefer. Everybody knows that to have two schools facing each other on the opposite sides of the way would be a waste of educational endowments. Still it may be essential, although I imagine that all parties would regret it. The Chairman said that he knew the district as well as any man in the place, and he would venture to tell the Commissioner that the dis- I trict would not be satisfied with a Church school with a Conscience Clause. They had the same objection to Church School with a Conscience Clause as they had to a National School in elementary education. What they wanted in connection with Intermediate Education, was schools with the management elected upon the same broad basis as the school boards. The Commissioner said he wished to put his question to the Mayor. He admitted that the chairman had considerable right to speak for the district, and he weuld take note of what he said. But it was a practical question that he was putting to the Mayor, and he was perfectly willing to put it to anybody else. He assumed, for the sake of the question, that there would be great disadvantages attaching to either aspect of it; and he wished to know whether the Mayor would prefer to have the two schools competing with one another, or the present school with a modified governing body ? The Mayor said he should prefer the two schools unless they could have the Grammar School converted into a thoroughly public school, in addition to the modification of the governing body. The Chairman Unless it is an undenomina- tional school. The Commissioner I did not understand you yesterday, in that case. The Commissioner then, at the request of the chairman, put the same question to each of the other gentlemen present. Mr. Henry Williams said he did not think the Nonconformists would agree to the pre- sent school unless it were made entirely unde- nominational. He would prefer the two schools otherwise-they would then have one Unden- ominational School in the district. Mr. T. H. Roberts said that he believed the two schools would be suicidal in Ruthin. It was not what they wanted, but what they were likely to get. The Rev. Issac James said that he felt con- siderable attachment to the present grammar school, and its headmaster. He had had a boy there nearly four years, and he had no particular complaint to make. But after all, he must be consistent with his principles- and it was a Church School. He regarded them as accountable to future generations, in what they did that day. As the Mayor had said, the government of the school might not be always the same, and the governors of the school, and the headmaster could not be always the same and to be consistent with his principles he must speak for a school under popular control. Mr. R. Harris Jones and Mr. Jones (Llanbedr Farm), said they too were also for the new school unless they could have the Grammar school under the scheme. s Dr. Medwyn Hughes, who had re-entered the room a little before he was questioned, said he would prefer to see the grammar school im- proved. The Chairman Not as a Church School ? If to, it would remain a Church School. Dr. Hughes said he would be satisfied with the present school under its present scheme, if there. could be sufficient guarantees that the school would not be made more of a Church school than at present, as the Warden had promised to do, and the governing body could be popularised. Dr. Hughes was further questioned, by the Commissioner, and by members present, and he said the difficulty was the religious one. He II should be quite satisfied with th present school if he had sufficient security that the I school would not be conducted otherwise than j as at present, and if the governing body were placed upon a thoroughly representative basis. His reason for that was because he felt the disadvantage of having the two schools. Mr. Powell asked if Dr. Hughes agreed to the school being continued as a Church School worked with a Conscience Clause ? Dr. Hughes said he should object to the pro- vision that the headmaster was to be a clergy- man. The Warden said that was not at all neces- sary now. Dr. Hughes then reiterated his previous statement as to preferring the improved gram- mar school with the proviso already noted. The Chairman: Would you agree to its being continued as a Church School? The Commissioner said he must put the question fairly to Dr. Hughes, and ask him kindly to answer. He regarded the question as an important one, and he attached impor- tance to Dr. Hughes' reply, seeing that he was one of the governors. It was true that the school might be described as a Church School worked under a Conscience Clause, but if he were asked to convert the proposition he would do so, and say that, because there was a Conscience Clause, the school was not a Church school. He did not wish to take advantage of Dr. Hughes. He took Dr. Hughes' statement the previous day at the meeting of the Gram- mar school governors, and if Dr. Hughes desired to give a different opinion now to what he did then, he was quite prepared to accept it. Dr. Hughes said the commissioner had men- tioned exactly his point. He did not regard the school at all as a Church one, pure and simple for, if so, why should the chairman of the governors have been saying all along that it was his intention to revert strictly to the teaching of the Church of England, to make the school a strictly Church of England one. The Commissioner said that was not so at the present time. The Mayor said that Dr. Hughes was but a new member of the Grammar School governing body, and perhaps- Dr. Hughes I have considered the question and I know exactly what I am saying. The Chairman said the whole of the district would never be contented with the school as a Church school. The Warden asked whether it might be assumed that there was no hope of anything short of the absolute establishment of the nonsectarian character of the school being satisfactory to the Nonconformits, and he was answered with cries of No.' Now,' he then said, 'we know where we are.' Mr. Harrison Jones* of Denbigh, appealed to the Warden personally to use his influence with the governors of the grammar school to allow the school to come under the scheme. He thought that such an act would be received with gratitude by the entire country, and would help to smooth over many unpleasant- nesses. It would be a noble and creditable action on the part of the Church party, which would do that party great good in the coun- try. The Chairman said that every eSort to meet the wishes of the Grammar School Governors had been made, and they had even visited the Bishop of St. Asaph on two occasions with that object. But there was no prospect of satisfactory j terms being agreed to. They could not afford to lose any more time over it, and they must proceed with the school as now proposed. The new school would certainly succeed and they would find that it would succeed at the expense of the Grammar School; and in the course of a few years, the friends of the latter would be very sorry that they had not accepted the olive branch. He was as anxious as any man to see the Grammar School brought under the scheme, but it was impossible. The Warden said he would ask the Noncon- formists if they could justly expect the Gover- nors of the Grammar School to throw open their doors to the Nonconformists when the latter closed their portals so rigidly against them. The School Governors of the Ruthin districts numbered 18; and of that number, only three were Churchmen, namely, the Bishop of St. Asaph, Mr. Reece, and himself. If they had reciprocated the feeling in favour of making the governing body more representative, there might have been a more conciliatory feeling all round. He should report the appeal of Mr. Harrison Jones in due course to the Gover-s nors. Mr. Selby-Bigge said that a question as to how one body in the district treated another might be one of importance to themselves, but it was not one which co.uld affect tke Commis- sioners, and it was not a subject upon which he could report. Miss Gee said that the proportion of Church. men upon the local governing body, aa mention- ed by the Warden, bore an exact proportion to the number of Churchmen in the population. The population of Wales was in the proportion of one Churchman to fi Ire Nonconformists. The Warden expressed his dissent with that statement. The Commissioner said that, considering that both schemes took no notioe of religious differences, he did not see that he could report upon them. Mr. Powell said that under the revised scheme the Grammar School would practically have been left in the hands of the existing go. verning body for twenty years. If that was not meeting the other side, he did not know what could be. He wished to ask the Commissioners for his interpretation of the clause in the scheme which said that the County Schools mentioned in the fourth schedule shall be es- tablished and maintained as soon as conve- niently may be. The Commissioner said he could not answer that question. They must put it to the com- missioners. He thanked them for their atten- dance, and for the assistance they Iliad given him, and he declared the inquiry at an end.