The Merthyr Express

GELLYGAER PARISH COUNCILS FINANCES. THE APPEALS AGAINST THt. SURCHARGES. HOW THE AFFAIRS OF THE PARISH WERE CONDUCTED, BLANK CHEQUES SIGNED BY COUNCILLORS. SALARIES OF THE OFFICIALS. Mr. F J. Willis, barrister, Local Govern- Jaont; Board Commissioner—as briefly reported to last week's "Express"—resumed on Thurs- day, at the Council Offices, Hengoed, the in- quiry into the grounds of appeal lodged against the surcharges in the District Auditor's report toy Mr. John Jones, ex clerk to the Parish Council; and Mr. Albert E. Jcnes, ex-assistant overseer; Messrs. David Roberts, R-eea Tho- was; William Love, Joseph Cooper, etc., for- mer members of the Parish Council and over- seers. Mr. D. W. Jones, solicitor, Merthyr, ap- peared for Messrs. J. and A. E. Jones; lr. W. D R. Lewis, Bargoed, appeared for the other appellants; and Mr. John Evans, Bar- goed, represented the Gellygaer District Coun- cil and overseers. Mr. W. Hammond and the Rav. Harri Edwards were present throughout the sitting. At the commencement of the proceedings, Mr. D. W. Jones congratulated Mr. Willis on his promotion to an assistant secretaryship to the Local Government Board. They had, Ue eaid, on many occasions durirrg the last few -years followed his great work in South Wales, 'tod were not at all surprised at such a recog- Motion of his abilities.—Mr. Willis thanked Mr. 4ones for his kind reference. MR. ALBERT E. JONES'S EVIDENCE. Mr Albert E. Jones was then called for ex- amination. The witness, in reply to questions, Mad he was appointed collector of rates and as- mstant overseer in Julv, 1301; and in July, 1902, was appointed surveyor and architect for ithe proposed burial ground. In August, 1905, was appointed surveyor for all work done by the Parish Council, and was to receive 5 per cent, for all work already done and for all future work. Mr. Willis: Prior to your appointment by the Parish Council, what was your experience?— 'I am a surveyor and architect. How did you learn this profession?—I was crtided. To whom were ybu articled?—To a big firm In Cardiff. How long were you with them? Three years, and after that I was employed as assist- ant. Are you a member of any societies?—I am fior. You cannot be a member- Nor a member of the Institute of Engineers? ■»—No. I am an architect and surveyor. Continuing, in reply to Mr. Willis's ques- tions. witness said he was originally appointed assistant overseer at a salary of L110 a year. which, on the 2nd of June, 1902, was advanced by f50 a year for that work. In April, 1904, the salary was a,In advanced by £ 50, with JE25 fxtra per year for collecting the special sani- tary rate. Mr. Willis: Well, then, in August, 1904, vour salary was advanced L75 a year for collecting the sanitary rate, making JB275 in all?—Wit- I don't remember. Mr. Willis: In February. 1905, according to }he minutes, you received £ 605 Is. for the per- od between the 20th February. 1S05, and the 31st March, 1905?—I should like to see that minute. Mr. D. W. Lewis: The minute is correct, is it not?—Witness: Yes, the minute is correct. Mr Willis: A part of the minute is in your ■writing, and a part in your brother's, is it not? —Witness: My brother came in while I was writing that minute. The witness then pointed out the place at which his writing ceased. The minute was the record and a resolution assess- ing the salary of Mr. A. E. Jones as follows: £ 605 Is. in respect to the period between the date thereof and the 31st of March, 1905; £ 575 for the half-year ending 30th September, 1905; and thereafter BZ50, with extra. commission for other work. Mr. Willis: That was a very large increase of salary, was it not?—It was. You were being paid E605 18. for a very Few weeks. Can you tell me why you got that very large sum of money coming to you ?-Beca it was owing'to me for what I had done. But they had paid you at that time all the salary due?—How do you mean? I mean that, according to the minutes, you were paid certain salaries for certain periods?— Oh. yes. And so far as I can make out from the books, the salaries voted to you prior to that February had all bean paid. There was nothing remain- ing owing?—Nothing had been paid to me. Perhaps you don't quite understand. In the preceding August, your salary had been fixed at £ 205; that had been paid you.—I don't know anything about it. It is entered in the books.—In which books? Mr. Willis: Well, we can show you some ten tries. Mr. D. W. Jones Of course ,you admit you received money in accordance with those min- "ufces?—Oh, yes. sir; certainly. Mr. Willis: So that at February there was nothinr owing to you; you had been paid month by month?—Quite right, sir. And then, seeing that this salary had been paid, I want to know what large sum of money was for. IA pause.) You cannot throw any further light upon it 7-1 want to see the papers. T have a right to see them. Certainly, Mr. Jones; I want to treat you quite fairly. You have had to do with the Parish Council books.—Mr. Jones: No, I have not. A piece of type-written foolscap was here handed to Mr. Jones, and after looking at it he said, "That- paper bas nothing to do with it. M'r, D. W. Jones: You must not address the Inspector in that way, Mr. Jones. You have always behaved respectfully up to now. I am verv torrv this has occurred. I think. Mr. Willis, I 'had better ask for a brief adjourn- ment of Mr. Jones's examination. Mr. Willis: Suppose. Mr. Jones, we suspend your further examination. There are a few mo-e questions I want to ask your brother. Mr. Albert Jones expressed a desire for his exairination to be continued, but it was ad- journed, and during that day be was not pre- sent again. MR. JOHN JONES. Mr. John Jones was then called, and Mr. Willis said: On looking through the accounts, I notice there is the fixing ol a gas stove m September, 1S03, charged at £ 6 3s.; do y°u know anything about it?—Mr. J. Jones: Yes, there was a gas stove. Where was it?—In the back room. Was it a cooking stov-- i-I think go, sir. What did you want a cooking stove in the offics for?—No answer. It, was not there whan you gave up your office; do you know what became of it?—No. Was it there before you left?—I think ao. I 'don'c know whether it was a cooking stove. Last time you said you did not heat by gas, but only utod gas for lighting. Do you think it ooJSible that that was charged to a wrong ac- count, and that it was a cooking store for your own ious-3 which got put down to the Parish Council instead of to you?—Mr. J. Jones: I don't think so. At any rate, it was not found there when you gave up your duties?—I forget. You remember last time I asked you some- thing; about that minute about which I have just asked vour brother; can you throw any further li'-hfc on those large sums—in your case the wm was £ 960 10B. given to you? Last time you thought it was for making up a difference in your salarv which ought to have been given to you earlier—that it was really to give you the difference between the smaller salary you actu- ally received and the amount you ought to have had?—Mr. Jones: Yes. But that differenoa was not anything like that amount, for you had only been in office four years, and if you ought to have had £ 9oU as the start, the difference between what you ought to have had and what you did reoeive would be only about £300; and yet they give you £ 960? (A pause). You cannot throw any further light upon it?—No, sir. Were you present at that meeting when this minute was considered?—I can't say. A special Parish Council meeting was held en Saturday, 13th February, 1907, for the. pur- pose of investigating the salaries of Messrs. John and A. E. Jones for the period 31st March to 30:h September. Were not you present at that meeting?—I don't think so. It was rather an important meeting?—Yes. You knew that the correctness of this minute was being challenged as not having been pro- perly parsed ?—I don't think it was challenged. You know that some people challenge it DC7"—Y«S- Cannot you throw any further light on it?— .No. Had you change of the minute book at that ^You ceased to hold offioe in Jane, 1907?— iY«. How came it to get entered in that book?—I icSI" t say. It has not been confirmed by the Council, has it?-It was signed by Mr. Rees Thomas, the chairman. He signed it on the day of the meeting?— Yes. At the next meeting of the Parish Council. they apparently objected to the whole form of this. That committee, which met on the 16th April, 1907, was appointed at the Parish Coun- tcij Jik§€^ij%S oe the ifth -Mamb, An;L i- n tlle otic utee of that meeting it scales that the obj 1 j was to report on the salaries paid. Cannot you throw any further light on that sum of money ? —No, sir. You still think it was to make up the differ- ence between what you actually received and what you would have received, if your salary had been £960 at an earlier date?—Yes. OVERSEERS' ACCOUNTS. Then the overseers' accounts, ending 31st March, 1905. You are put there as having re- ceived LISI 5s. for the half-year?—Y«s. That i; at rate of i.562 10s. a year. What was your salary under the overseers at that. time? According to the minutes, you ought to have had £ 75 a year or the collection of the sanitary rate, whereas you are here paid on the 31ft of March, 1905. for the half-year, whilst apparently you should have had £ 37 10s. Your brother is also paid £ 181 5s. for the haif- year, although his salary, according to the min- utes, was only £ 75 a year. Can you throw any (light on that?—No, sir. You admit it does not fit in with the order of aary, don't you?—Yes. This is the recipt. and payment book of the Parish Council, and for the year ending 31st larch, 1906, there is all entry: "Pay to Jones £ 200." I am informed you had that £200. Do you know what you had it for?—I forget. Do you remember getting it? Your initials are not againvt it; it is simply "Pay Jones," and there are many Joneses (laughter). I think it went through your banking account. By the way, have you your pass-book iere"- I can't find it. I Do you think you have it at home?—I don't think so. Mr. Willis: I should. like you to look for it. Mr. D. W. Jones: I think I can give an un- dertaking that that shall be produced. We must make a &?arch for it, and if not found, we must get a copy. Mr. Willis: You have no objection to my go- ing to the ban-" D. W. Jone. None at all. We will give you authority for that. Mr. Wiliis: There are a. great many charges near together for painting- the offices: L15 5s. in November, 1903; JS18 10s. in December. 1904; and, in the overseers' accounts, £ 14—all in about a year Do you think that can be correct, for it was a tiny bouse, was it not?— A good sized house. You think it was likely to cost such a sum for painting?—As far as I know. Mr. Willis next called attention 4 a furni- ture order written on the furniture dealer's own form ordering furniture to the value of L20 5s., and for which he found no authority in the minute book.—Mr. Jones admitted he did not get authority for this. This was followed by an account of a Mr. Ed wards for £ 13 9s., 4th January, 1907, which was said to be for fixing shelves. Mr. Willis reminded witness that at his last examination there was another amount °f £ 15 9s. for fixing shelves. "You must have got a great many J shelves," Mr. Willis observed. Do you think that is correct—As far as I know. I suppose the shelves are there now. Have you thought of any further explanation in re- card to the very large consumption of gas in your office? I think it came to about JE40 a year. Is that so?—I think roo Who made up the Parish Council accounts for the year ending March, 1906 it is not your writing, is it?—No. Is it Mr. McGregor's writing?—It looks like his. Have you any record of the postages dis- allowed. and those disallowed in the overseers' accounts?—No, sir. The appellant admitted that JB12 10s. paid to him as assistant overseer for the collection of the sanitary rate, and disallowed by the Audi- tor, was an over payment, and that £ 3 15s. of another amount of JE6 5s. was also an over- payment. NO AUTHORISING MINUTES. In- reply to Mr. W. D. R. Lewis, witness said lie believed he informed the Parish Council that thev were about to exceed the sixpenny rate Limit. Hef also admitted that it was his ) duty to enter payments authorised in the min- ut-3d, and he knew that several payments had been disallowed because there was no authoris- ing minute. He belierved, he said, that he had brought to the notice of the Council the prelim- inary expenses, about £2,000, connected with the three different cemetery schemes. Mr. Lewis: Last time, according to my notes, you said you did not.—Witness said he understood the Council had instructed his bro- ther to do what he did in regard to the oeme- teries, and this was why such large sums had been spent. Mr. Lewis: Last time you said he simply went cn and sent in his bill eventually. Was it customary to pay members for attending as deputations?—Witness: I believe so. i Were they passed by the late Auditor? — I believe so. In reply to Mr. John Evans, witness said I that generally the Council meetings would be over in time to allow members to catch the 6.40 train; but that certain members sometimes remained behind for signing cheques and tran- j sacting finance business. Mr. Roes 'i nomas, who lived at Fochriw, was one who generally ramained behind, and would, therefore, if lie lost his train, have to walk from Pontlottyn. I Mr. Evans then took the witness to the min- ute of the 18th February, 1907, according to which it had been agreed to make up his salary by a cheque for E960, and also cheques to his brother for £ 606 and L575, and to increase his salary to 2350. He did not remember, he said, this particular minute having been challenged } as to its genuineness; but he remembered that an investigation committee was appointed to go J into the matter of whethar he and his brother were paid sufficiently or too much. He did not remember Mr. HaxTi "Edwards asking for an abstract of the accounts of Merthyr Union, nor a special meeting being held about March, 1907, after the opening of the Bargoed Recrea- tion Ground. He did cot remember Mr. Harri Edwards protesting against that special meet- ing having met before the time appointed, and he could not remember the object of the meet- ing, "it was so long ago." He could not say when a cheque for 2120 for two years' salary was drawn. CONCERNING AN AGENDA. Mr. Evans then drew attention to a type- written notice of a Pariah Council meeting for the purpose of proposing certain increase of salaries, viz.: — That the salary of Mr. A. E. Jones, assistant overseer, be increased, and that I. the purpose of proposing certain increase of salaries, viz.: That the salary of Mr. A. E. Jones, assistant overseer, be increased, and that hereafter he be assigned a saJary of 9350 per I annum, with extra commission under the fol- lowing circumstanoes if and when any of them arise. (2) When the amount actually collected in any half-year exceeds the sum of £ 15,000 on I a rate of .38. in the L, Is per cent. of the amount collected over and above £ 15,000. (2) When the rate is made at less than 3s. in the JB, the commission to ba paid at the rate of 1& I per cent, of the amount in exoess of what would be the proportion which such collection would bear to £ 15,000. (3) Where a rate is made at more than 3s. in the JB, extra com- mission to be paid at the rate of li per cent. of the amount in excess cA what would be the proportion which such Collection would bear to £ 15,000. Provided that in the latter case an extra commission would be paid at the rate of i per cent, upon the difference between the I amount and £ 15,000. (4) That the 6alary of Mr. John Jones, assistant overseer, be increas ed, and that he be assigned a salary of £ 60 a year as clerk to the Parish. Council. The greater part of the resumed inquiry circled round the minute previously referred to (the authenticity of which some of the parish councillors alleged they called in question, and which other surcharged members declared, later on, they had never seen nor heard read, nor taken a part in confirming), and the above I quoted agenda of meeting which they alleged was the matter dsalt with at the meeting, and the resolution which, at a later meeting, was confirmed, and not the minute recording the voting of the large sums mentioned in it. Mr. Evans remarked: This type-written paper mentions JB60. The minute does not say a word about it.—^>Ir. J. Jones: It was under- stood. Mr. Evans: Can you say who wrote the cheques for the commission to your brother right back to 1905'—Mr. J. Jones: I wrote some, and my brother wrote some, I believe. Replying to further questions, witness said he told the members what the cheques were he told the members what the cheques were tor. He checked payments by cheque accord- ing to the supposed cost. There was but little work done apart from the wagee of workmen. Cheques for B400 and £ 500 would exceed the amount paid to workmen. He had kept a rough minute book, but had not got it now, 1 and did not know where it was. He thought I every resolution was entered in the p:roper I minnte book. He did not remember appoint- I ing a deputation to go to Mr. Franklen in re- gard to a loan of £ 10,000 forjl cemetery, bnt he remembered Seeing- Mr. Franklen, and it was possible that there was a resolution to j I! that effect which had not been recorded in the j minute book. He did net remember Mr. Harri Edwards calling attention to a minute of an- other meeting in 1907 which had been omitted, an omission which conoerned the assistant col- lectorship. Ho vs.-i'Av/i'iij-rred attending an in- i quiry at TreL'.ai'r;s. Mr. V.oo;v-" attended with him, and, he supposed, was appelated by the Couagil to do 19\ kut hil ccuid Bot egiRA to R resolution to that effect. He could not say whether there were resolutions approving of his brotlyr preparing three sets of plans and specifications for the cemetery He sometimes took members who were not appointed by tho Council to attend deputations. Mr. Evans: Then you can't rely on the min- ute book, you ?— Witness: Yes ,so far as what is done. The witness said he remembered waiting on I Mr. Nehemeiah Phillips with Mr. Hammond and Mr. Cooper. The latter was paid; the former was not. He could not say why the distinction was made. Mr. Harri Edwards, ;11- though he was one who waited on Mr. Frank- len, was not paid until some tims between 1906 and 1907. Mr. Evan*: You said the chairman would sign blank < heqtjes; did he sign the minutes in the same way? Why was there a large in the same way? Why was there a large blank left at the bottom of a page_?—Witness: I It was never indicated where he was to sign. Mr- Evans: I see there is a meeting of the 30th July. 1906, entered on page 10 of the minute book, and another meeting held on the 30th June appeafs-cjn Mr. Willis: He-told us last time that he once mislaid the minute book, and then .f.r. wards made the entiries. Mr. Evans: That explains it. CHECKING ACCOUNTS FROM MEMORY. Witness, in further replies, said he could not tell where the vouchers were for the years 1901 to 1904, but he would have checked the ac- count rendered for subsequent years from memory. Mr. Willis: Your memory was better then than now, Mr. Jcnes (laughter). Continuing, witness said that the members did not ask questions about cheques, and were always ready to sign. but he did not think the large cheques would be signed in the same way. Mr. Wiliis: But you are not quite sure about it. To Mr. Evans: He did not know that at a meeting of the Msrthyr Board of Guardians mention was made of the large sums being paid I for salaries at Gellygaer in 1906, nor did he remember being asked repeatedly to prepare a. statement showing what he and bis brother were receiving. Ho did not remember Mr. Harri Edwards pretesting at the meeting at Bargoed against his neglect to supply the statement asked for. Mr. Willis: Was such application made?— Mr. Evans: Several times. Mr. Willis: I find from books the following sums paid to Mr. A. E. Jones: 1902, £126 Ills. 7d.: 1903, £179 19s.: 1904, £324 7s. 3d.: 1905, £1,522 9s.; 1906, JES97 14s. lid.: 1907, £1,952 5s. 2d. You see, he was getting close on £2,000 a year for the last year. A similar statement has been prepared in regard to yours (Mr. J. Jones): 1S02, £124 12s. 7d.; 1903, JE164 3s. 4d.; 1904. £180 4e. 2d. !.905. £396 15s. 1906, £1,325; 1907, £7ó2 2s. 6d. These amounts are taken out of account books of the Parish Council and overseers. These are the statements which I understand v/ere called for. You don't remem- ber them being called for?—Witness: No, sir. Are you surprised to find what very large sums you were paid, or did not you know you I were getting them ?—Witness: I must have known I was having them* Did you manage to save anything?—No, sir. Are you the owner of house property, land sha.res. or any other kind?—No. I think you told me you were bankrupt ?— Witness: Yes. He also stated that he had no banking account. Mt-. Willis then asked Mr. Evans when the statement of salaries was asked for, and Mr. Evans read a report of a meeting on the 21st February, 1.907. showing that both Mr. Harri Edwards and Mr. Hammonds had made such request. EX-CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL. Rees Thomas, collier, of Fochriw, was then called. Ho said he was elected to the Parish Council in March, 1901. He had been a mem- ber right through, and chairman in 1306 and 1907. He had also been an overseer for twelve manthE-the same year in which he was chair- man. He had no banking account. Mr. Willis: You have had great experienoe on the Parish Council, and boon a member 3 long time. Do you know the expenditure in- creased in this way: 1901, £55 10s. 4d. 1902. £400; 1903, £800; 1904, £1,490; 1905, £2,581; 1$06, £3,795; 1907 (when you were chairman;. £ 6,183? Were you aware of this enormou? growth ?—Witness: No. It is very big, is it not?—Yes. And vou were a. member the whole of that time?—Yes. Witness id he could not account for this enormous rise in the expenditure. He d d not look after the finance as though it was a 1J!. ness of his own, but some of the nJ.P.ú," bers asked the Clerk about it now and Mr. Willis referred to the cemetery, on so many had been spent in thinking about. commission on plans, trips to London, etc., amounting to over £1,350, and witness admit- ted he did not know how to justify it. Mr. Willis pointed out that Mr. Albert Jones had made a claim for 5 per cent. commission on the estimated cost of schemes which had been abandoned. Ope was a scheme which was estimated to cost £10,000 on the under- 1 standing that although abandoned the commis- sion was to be paid. Witness could not say whether the Council discussed this matter. He did not think the Council were aware that they were paying these sums. He had no idea that Mr. Albert Jones, in the year he (witness) was chairman, received nearly £2,000, He signed cheques as a matter of course; he trusted the officers, and only questioned an amount whe." it was a very big one. Ho ooo.'id crJy reuwaa- bar one cemetery h:?¡¡16 corrtim; before too Council, on which ther* was an inquiry, arid 11(0 did not remember a bili ior flcOO or £ '400 M work Albert Jones had 0n ic conr^z with the first site. lie oquid throw no iizb*. on items of wages, amounting to £7.ú, for tiws l year he was chairman, for t work of sinkir.^ I trial holes on proposed cemetery sites. W?fin*as admitted putting his name to the minute of tiw 20th February, 1905, which fttat-ad that it had been unanimously agrewsd to pay £960 to Mr. J, Jones, £óW to Mr. Albert Jones, and ing the salary of the latter for the next yec* £575, but ho was not awaro of the nature this minute. j In reply to Mi". D W Jones, wit nee? r.jd he did not know wV-cbsr ho coo & guinea for attending a meeting:, but aaai'tted that ha gtai- erally got a guinea epaoiaJ meetings. To Mr. Willis: n: one who in March, 1906, to Loiicicn in respect to the In- coroporation of Merthyi'. TWey went to sup- port it, but gave no evidence. He could not say what business this was to them. The same year a deputation, of which he was one, went I to London about the cemetctry. He received £ 5 for this, and Mr. Jones paid expenses. He did not do anything, but Mr. Jones said he had done everything all right. He was not with Mr. Jones the whole time. Mr. Willis: That cost the parish £91,), to re- ceive a message you could have got by tale- phone. Mr. Willis: I see you received, whilst chair- man, £28 13s. in connection with deputations. —Witness: Something like that. Witness was unable to say why he was unable to give par. ticulara at the audit to justify these charges. He was one of the members who stayed behind to sign cheques after the meetings. He did not make investigation as to the amounts he signed for. Detailed accounts were not put before them, and he did not ask for them. J655 2s. Sd. for gas and water for one year, he admitted, seemed a large amount, but he made I an enquiry about it. He would not think that more than JESOO had been spent IÍn making foot- paths in a year, as only 14 or 15 men were employed, and he confessed he was surprised at Mr. Willis's statement that £1,911 had been thus spent. Mr. Willis: According to the District Audit- or, you have to find a large sum of money— £1,125 :¡.&¡.2d. and £3,369 Os. 8d. Witness was then again taken back to the impugned minute voting the large salaries, and he declared he never heard that minute read, and was under the impression they were adopt- ing the late Auditor's (Mr. Cox's) scheme. He remembered the meeting to investigate the salaries, but although he was Chairman, he did not know what they did, but he knew the investigation was caused by a lot of talk and scandal. He thought, however, the meeting took Mr. A. E. Jones's statement as correct. He never saw a bank-book, nor asked for one. SIGNING BLAISTK CHEQUES. Mr. Willis: You held the meeting, then, in order that Mr. Albert Jones might come and say the payments were correct. May I take it that you wish to appeal against all the sums with which you are charged?—Witness: Yfcs. In reply to further question?, the witness said he generally signed cheques at the offices, but sometimes elsewhere, and the large cheques referred to were signed at his own house. He I had signed one cheque at a public-house, at which a. meeting of overseers was held. The overseers sometimes held their meetings at a public-house, but as a rule at Mr. John Jones a office. It was usual also to sign a few blank cheques in case of their being wanted between tha meetings, and witness would sign a blank cheque if asked to do so. Witness said he did not remember signing a cheque for JE606 oqpi- mission said to be duo for plans for the old and present cemetery sites, and he thought it was probable that tie had not had any particulars given him. It was not customary to have par- I ticulars, and he would sign overseers' cheques in the same way. Mr. John Jones kept the cheque book for the overseers. A cheque dated March, 1907, made out to and counteisigned by Albert Jones, was pro- duoed for inspection, and witness was informed that on the 5th of March, 1907, Mr. Albert H. Jones received £300 from the overseers in re- 1 spect to tIx. cemetery site, and another cheque I was signed by John Jones the same day for the I same purpose, conoeTnmg whlCh witness had nothing to say. Witness was then asked I whethar he had anything to say in respect to I the surcharge of £io for a visit to London in respect to "the Rights of Commoners." Wit. ) nese said he was one of the lot who went to J London for that purpose" but except accoii- | panving Mr. John Jones, they did not do a»y- tiling. He had nothing further to add exofot J that the cheques he signed he signed in Itfis J that the cheques he signed he signed in Itfis capacity as chairman. He remembered an *n- i quiry being hold in respect to the first, ceifle- sito, but did not remc-jnb?r why Mr. A. Jones was authorised to pay £10 10i. to a. Mr.. igr .&¡! if* Uidr&e* E« signing- this cheque, but he signed many cheques in a formal way without making in- yestigation. In the years 1901 to 1904, the work on the footpaths of the parish was mostly done by James Jones, but he did not remem- ber it.. Instead of putting the work outside to a contractor, they allowed Mr..1 chn Jones to take on workmen. He could no; s:;y why the Parish Council interested themselves in the question of the Incorporation of Merthyr. Mr D. W. Jones stated that there was some question of the boundaries concerned which affected Gellygaer, as there was a, desire on the part, of the County Council to confine Merthyr within certain Jimits, and Gellygaer supported the whole district being included. Mr. Willis: Ordinarily, one would assume r that if they went up to London for the Mer- thyr Corporation, the latter would have paid their expenses. Mr. D. W. Jones:-They wanted to keep their i own parish intact. Mr. Willis: It shows they had some justifica- tion, but it was not enough to send ten men to London; about, three would have done. (To witness :),. Then there are a ,nuib(iber of small sums which you are surcharged with for "de- putation expenses"—a number of half-guineas and guineas. AU these things you say would be for attending special meetings?—Witness: Yes, and visits. Mr. Willis: There are a great number of sums disallowed bv the Auditor of which you can give no precisc details. The sums are scattered all about at various dates throughout the yc<a.r. Was it the custom to pay you these sums at tho time of the meeting?—Witness: Sometimes. Would Mr. J. Joae* pay you?—Yes. There is a cheque for £13 5s. fcr a case of drawing instruments and two books on Local Government. I take it that in this case you signed the cheque without details?—Yes. You admit quite generally that you did not exercise any control over the finances of this parish?—Nothing at all. You do not defend that as being the proper attitude for a chairman of the Parish Council: in looking back. you think you acted wrongly or ought to have taken interest in all these things?—Yes. Do you know anything of the goods supplied to the Parish Council by Williams and Sons- timber? In your year of office, it amounted to close upon £270. Can you throw any light upon it?—No. You signed all the cheques except one. Did you know they were supplying timber?—No. You signed without knowing what it was for —•Quite right. Did Mr. Albert Joneo, who looked after these stores, ever say, "I shall want so much tim- ber," and get definite instructions from the Council ?—No. Continuing, witness said, so far as he knew, Mr. A. Jones would order it on his own. There was no finance committee. He did not get a guinea for staying behind to sign cheques. GLORY AND DIGNITY." Mr. Willis: Why should you be paid for at- tending special mtings": In the ordinary course, men become members of a local body for the glory and dignity of the thing (laugh- ter) they axe supposed to be so devoted to the interests of their fellow-parishioners—(laughter) —that they give up their time unselfishly to serve them.—Witness said John Jones told them they were justified. Mr. Willis: And you thought you were with- in the four corners of the law and had a right? i —Yes. And you looked up to him for advice?—Yes. In regard to the overseers?—Yes. Witness said he never looked into them, and although a good deal of stationary might have been or- ordered, he never scrutinised the accounts. May I put it to you that you have nothing more to say about these sums, and that if you sign you signed in ignorance, and that you have signed away hundreds and hundreds of pounds without scrutinising the amounts, and solely on the word or your officers that they I were done?—Yes, and because we knew that it would go before the Auditor. You cannot shift the responsibility on to the Auditor. He comes on the scene later, after the cheque has gone out of your bank. In reply to Mr. D. W. Jones, witness ad- hered to his statement that the cheque for the large salaries in 1905 was not correctly passed. Mr. D. W. Jones: But at a special meeting in 1907, when your memory was clearer, you it was oorrectiy passed. Mr. Willis: It is written in the book that it ^as correctly passed. j Mr. Jones: You signed that minute and know whit you were signing. There were sav- i cjtaJi members present, and there was at general j discussion on it, and you cam to the conclu- sion that it. was absolutely correct, did not you? j—Witness: On Mr. Albert Jones's assurance i that it was oorr<3cl In reply to questions by .Mr. Jones concern- witness's expenses in London .witness said thai, ho lost his work by going, and as he was not » «yv«tTii>er of the Federation, ho considered be jatititkd to payment. He had never signed chvquci- before for anybody, and so j thought it o. serious business. Witness re- rocrnhered interview with the late auditor, Mr. Cox, '■■<!ih regard to the minute of 1905. i Mr. Cox that if they believed all things f which appeared in the Pioss, they would have J cnoufh to 10. and 1Hr. David Roberts asked J how lbs parish thingsw-ete carried on, and the latter informed him that thty were "carried | ou in oo abbve board manner." Further questions elicited that a report of the meeting was published in the Press, and that thera was" much ta.lk about the sums being paid in salaries. Mr. Willis: Mr. Cox told you you were not • to believe all you saw in the Press, and yet i you did not know yourselves what remunera- j uon the offioers were getting. | In reply to Mr. J. Evans, witness said he i a! t«nde4 the audit in 1906. He did not know about the £960, and other sums for salary to j the Joneses, but thought'the Council had adop- i scheme recommended by Mr. Cox. Mr. Willis: I understand there was a state- ifrtint in the paper that your officers were get- I iini a thousand a year, and that you asked Mr. i 0. about it?—Yes. i Mr. Evans: Were you present when Mr. r^iitaoiend protested against this resolution?— i l'<o. Mr. Evans: Do you remember Mr. David Ta?-«t>5 asking about it?—I remember a protest Witts made. j 11.. Evans: Did anyone say it was correct?— j I don't remember. j Witness admitted that after the resolution I had been questioned he signed a cheque for i £ 120 for Mr. J. Jones as clerk to the Council, I aid without knowing* what he was signing be- cause the cheque was blank. Mr. Evane then read from a report in the paper pointing out that the Rev. Harri Ed- wards was excluded from the investigation committee appointed for investigating the sal- aaries, but witness said he did not know why he (Mr. Edwards) was excluded. THREE DAYS IN LONDON. The minute concerning the salaries was then put before the witness by Mr. Evans, and also the agenda, in which the commission arrange- ment (already referred to) was given as the object of the meeting. Mr. Evans pointed out I that witness had signed a statement that the minute was right. Witness said he thought the scheme approved of was Mr. Cox's scheme, which he drew up because the parish was in- creasing in rates and population. Witness re- membered that Mr. J. Jones received two in- creases in his salary in 1904, but he knew also there had been no great increase in the parish in 1904 and 1905. He admitted he did not en- quire what the cheques he signed were for, and in reply to Mr. Evans's question as to why he was sent to the Parish Council, witness said it was to look after the ratepayers' interests. He had not asked Mr. Jones for fees for attend- ing special meetings, but be was paid. He was certain only six members went to London, and not ten as appeared by the accounts. They were in London three days. Mr. WiUis: The amount charged for that visit was J6161 9s. 9d., and in February, 1906, there is a charge of JB90 again. In this latter case; it is in connection with the cemetery site; the £161 is for the Incorporation of Merthyr. Mr. D. W. Jones: Does that include coun- sel's and solicitors' fees? Mr. Willis: Oh, no; only members'; so Mer- thyr is ra.ther heavily indebted to the parish of Gellygaer. Mr. D. W. Jones: They should send in their bill. Replying again to Mr. Evans, witness said he got a fee for attending a meeting only a few yards away from his own door. He could not say what the workmen were paid. He was with Mr. John Jones when he inspected the regulations in Hyde Park, of which Mr. Jones took notes. Mr. J. Jones also went to see about the rights of commoners, and witness waited till he came back. To Mr. Willis, witness replied that Mr. Jones was about ten minute in writing the re- gulations. Witness was idle a long time dur- ing his term of office as chairman. If cheques were wrongly entered and signed, tho officials were responsible for it. Mr. W. D. R Lewis next examined witness, who said that if he had been shown the books he would not have been able to tell whether they were correct. He had never seen a bill for JE113 14s. 9d. from the executoiss of James Jones, although he had signed the cheque. Mr. WiUis: The bill was delivered a. long time after the man had died. Witness said that in the reading of the min- utes, nothing was read about "Resolved that the following bills be paid," clthcugh the min- ute book contained this. Men ,who were col- liers were employed on the footpath?, and paid 30s. a week, "because some people liked to give a living wage." William Love was then examined, and on being asked if he had anything to add to the grounds of his appeal against a surchr-rge of Council, and the very large amount he was liable for an overeeer, witness said," "I don't know any- thing about it-—In reply to Mr. Evans, he admitted lie was present at the investigation committee's meeting, and remembered Mr. Harri Edwards protesting. He did not know why Mr. Harri Edwards was kept off that oom- mittf.e. He could not remember that Mr. Dd. Lewis offered to resign in favour of Mr. H. Edwards being put on. He remembered Mr. Edwards protesting against the meeting.lx-ing held before the time for which it was called, but he did not think the complaint was justi- fied. He knew Mr. llbert Jones was appoint.a ^a.rchit.^ in coagcgjtos £ *& lbs Wli&g&r? They were not asking what they were to have but saying what they were going to have (laughter). Mr. Evans: What was he going to have?— Witness: What he wanted (laughter). Rcpiyinr to Mr. Willis: He never examined the books; he lrnstd to the officials; he d'd not hear ube minute read about the large in- crease ai srjuries. Y A IN PROTESTS. Other members of the old Parish Council not being present, the Commissioner thought it would be an opportune time for Councillor W. Hammond to make his statement, which he did on oath. He stated that he was elected to the Council in 1904. and that during his mem- bership ho cOrnplain«sd of the Clerk attending the meetiniLS under the influence of drink. Both ho (Mr. Hammond) and the Rev. Harri Edwards strongly protested against this, as lie was unlit sometimes to read the minutes, and his brother or a reporter had to read them for him. He also objected to the reporter receiv- ing the sum of £ 36' for shorthand notes of an inquiry hoJdát..Trøhairi5. Tho minute book, continued Mr. JrTammond, was a farce, and he strongly protested against the method. The minute which professed to authorise the large salaries for John and Albert E. Jones was not r gcnuinq, and he protested against tho recom- mendation on which the real minute was based, as he felt that Albert Jones was receiving too much money for what he was doing at the time. He was the only one who protested against tho scale of salaries recommended, but which, excepting himself, was unanimously passed. There were altercations at some of the meetings. In regard to the deputations to London, he proposed that only the Clerk and the Chairman should atteod on tho question of the Incorporation of Merthyr, but this was out voted, and five wivre appointed to go. The wa-ste and extravagance in the years 1906 and 1907 were scandalous, but he was powerless to stop them. Therro was no Finance Committee, but there were always certain members who r- I mained behind because they had business with tho Clerk after the Council meetings, and these members supported the officers in all things. I If any explanation was asked for,, the matter was ''talked over by the clique," or Mr. John Jones threatened. He was quite certain that the minute proposing to to John Jones (the Cleric) JS960 was never 1 (>3 d out to a Coun- cil meeting. Certain members were paid for attending meetings, but not himself; but tnis waA not known at the time. The audit show- ed that workmen had been paid for periods before they were engaged. At one meeting, ho quoted Section 17 of the Act of 1894, show- ing that John was not entitled to charge J any salary as clerk/1 in the Parish Council ac- counts, and- he and his brother said it was for the Burial Board, but there was no Burial Board. They did just, what they liked. He had done all he could to put an end to the rotten condition of things. Even his life had been threatened. The Commissioner at this stage adjourned the inquiry till Friday, when he said he would put some questions to Mr. Hammonds and the Rev. Harri Edwards.