Carmarthenshire County Couuc 1. I THE GRIE-N'ANCES OF VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS-THREATS FROM WHITEHALL. THE ATTENDANCE OFFICER QUESTION SETTLED. ROWDY PROCEEDINGS—LIVELY SCENES. The adjourned meeting of the Carmarthen- shire County Council was held at the Carmar- then Townhull, on Friday, at 12.15 p.m. Mr J. W. G wynne Hughes, Tregeyb (ohairmail, of the Council) presided. There were also pre- sent: Mr R. W. Stephens, Ooedybrain; Mr W. Jenkins, Alltycadno; Mr W. 1ST. Jones, Tirydail Mr Bo wen, Nantyrolchfa Mr Jo&. Joseph, Llangennech Mr John Ltivis, Metros Hall; Mr T. F. Jones, Caio; Mr J. Llew. Thomas, Pontardulais; Mr C. E. Morris, Car- marthen; Mr Mouse, Ltandawke Mr J. B. .tvees, Llan'genneah; Mr D. Davies, Llangen- neei Mr W. Mabon Davies, Glansawdde; Mr Barrett, Cross Vale; Mr 7L F. Wilkins, riy Port Mr John Rees, Dolgwm; Mr arnei Stephens, Arla.is; Mr H J ones-Da vies, Tn^ Q n; Mr w- Griffiths, Llaiiolly; Mr „ 11 ocourficld, Blaenwernddu Mr J. Llyod ■uiomas Tanlan- Rev W. Davies, Llandilo; p„n t': ThomaK, Llanfynydd Mr J. Lloyd, nybank; Mr James xtees, Talgarth; Mr J. eavan. Llansadwrn; Rev Professor D. E. ones. Carinartlien Rev J. H. Rees, Burry -r-°r, Lieut.-Gen. Sir James Hills-Johnes, P T 'C B.. DolaUcothi:; Mr John Johns, TV'|lrCn^ .Mr James John, Carmarthen; \v. David, Llanellv Sir James Drum- mond, Bt., Edwinsford; together with the Clerk (Mr J. W. Nicholas). THE BOARD OF EDUCATION THREA- TENS THE COUNCIL. Professor Jones (chairman of the Education Committee) said that before he moved the adoption of the report of the Education Com- mittee, lie would call their atteiitio-n to the fact that certain matters had been, referred by the Committee to the Council for their instructions. He believed there was a letter from the Board of Education asking what steps the Council were taking to maintain and keep efficient the Newcastle Emlyn Nat. echool Perhaps it wouldl be well to deal with that first. He understood that there were several letters from the Board of Educa- *on > fi-e'did not know whether the Council would deal with them all at the same time. 1 Clerk said that he had received several 'letters from the Board of Education enclosing complaints from the correspondents of the various schools. He had replied stating that the Council had decidedl- to pay each quarter to the mtlpagers of the non-provided schools only to much grant as was received in respect of that school during the, quarter. He hadi received the following letter — Board of Education, Whitehall, London, S.W., 1st Februar 1904. County Council of Carmarthenshire. Z. 03/346. Sir,—I am directed by the Board of Educa- cation to call the attention of your Council to the letters addressed respectively by the Board to your Council with regard to the following schools CWewm Church School (fetter of 13th Nov.). i-remoilet Memorial Nat. School (Nov 12th). Golden Grove Nat, School (Nave. 18th). Nat, School (November 11th). Rhi 01' Nat- School (Nov. 18th). Khandyn^-yn Nat_ gchool (Nov. 12th). LnS ^t1 Najt- School (Jan, 26th). Mii!i'VnVNat- School (Nov. 12th). PWK \at* School (Nov. 17th). Cf rr7 Nat, School (January 26th). »t. Clears Nat, School (Nov. 11th). IQ^A am afSl° advert to your Council's letter iqn^eSKe<j Board on 13th November, pt to the letters addressed to your «niiUn? t5l:e with regard to the nine letter men^oned in your Council's said recLfwfif0 enc,l°se copies of further letters tm-ir u Board from managers of volun ■y schools in the area of your Council, he above correspondence aipnears to uggest that your Council ihave in many cases refused or failed— (1) to provide voluntary schools with fuel iand other articles necessary for their main- tenance, or to pay teachers salaries a,s they fall due, or to furnish money sufficient for these purposes; (2) to give managers of voluntary schools necessary directions for carrying on the secular instruction under the' control of your Council; (3) to appoint a, person to represent your Council upon the body of managers of a voluntary school. The Board observe that such conduct would violate the provisions of Sections 6 (2) and 7 (1) of the: Education Act, 1903, and would constitute a very serious situation. I am, therefore, to request that your Council will give the subject of this letter their earnest consideration and will return an early answer to the Board. In the meantime the Board regret that they must now contemplate the necessity of an in- quiry into the interests complained of. I have the honour to he. Sir, Your obedient Servant, (Signed) H. M. SINDSIK. (Enclosure.) The Vicarage, St. Clears, » 1. South Wales, Jan. 11, 1904. Carinfaii-theinshirei County Council. Z W n earS ^aticmal School. ounty of Carmarthen. 24694. i>ear Sir —On know what'w managers are anxious to matters, of +i5 are do concerning school land ^ys that JU"cture; The law of the camn'nnr ii 0U1 financial responsibilities i* WQ'g! °n the s:ch°o1 ended on the 1st Oct, inml^r made our arraoigemients' accord- giy: but the Carmarthenshire County council seems to be superior to, and beyond the reach of that law, and we are now in a worse position than, before. We have to pay a County -Education Rate which is avowedly to bei used contrary to the law, and so we have to sujpjport a Council to do what is illegal. Teachers' salaries for three months were due on December 31st last, and are not yet paid. Books, etc., are also required for the ordinary work of the School. The managers have no money in band to meet these inde- gpensable expenses, while the Local Education Authority, the party responsible- ia-ecording to law, refuses to pay. Therefore we beg to ask your advice as to our best course of action re Teachers' salaries and school requisites. I am, Deuir Sir, yours sincerely, C. FRED OWEN, Corresponded. rd <>f Education, S.W.. St (Enclosure.) 8 Vicarage, Ferryside, R.S.O., Carmarthen shire, South Wales, Ii Deoeimber 19th. 1903. 1. St. Isbmael. -u- 2. Ferryside National School. 3. Llansaint National Sohool. A. W, Carmarthenshire. 03/23905 and 03/25415. Dear Sir,—I beg to enclose the estimated A..W, Carmarthenshire. 03/23905 and 03/25415. Dear Sir,—I beg to enclose the estimated expenditure as desired. The instalments of due IT*? 1904, and April 1st ISoT™' JanUaTy lab' January 1st will1 more tti^? due °n has een received from the cSntT ru f as the next instalment of Fee Grit Pencil > fall due till February l*t so thSX^^ money to go on with to purchase coal, school materials, and other necessaries, and from the action of the- County Council the, Banks do not care to advance without an assurance from the Education Board that they will Wo me responsible for any deficit, which the ^°unty Council might choose to repudiate !^d which virtually the County Council has done by refusing to allocate any poa-- the local rate- to the above schools iind, r ^ate has been duly levied by them. positf118^.tbe Board will see the gravity of the that tjf which the schools are placed and the ipi ^tter1 requires imimediate1 action on t Of the Board, or that it will reply to to tter as soon as possible anthorizimg us ■*Pork-Ur tIie necessary expenses so that the m the schools should not come' to a stand ^r,I4-ure,?>V,n^ei that old Committee ceased of September la-t; but as the v«un.ty Counicd has, not elected its, member the new Committe, is the new Committee then properly and legally constituted a,s, the n Foundation Managers have; alone been elected In fact it would seem that the County Council are determined to ignoire thei above schools altogether, excepting; the handing over to the schools the money received by them from the Board. Things have come to a fine pass! and surely one has reason to hope that the forbearance of the Board has a limit! A new Minute Book, etc., is required, but I do no& feel justified1 in advancing the money on my own account without first hearing from the Board that one will not be left in the lurch. For coal I became personally responsible as one could not, stand by and see the children shivering from the cold. A reply with as little delay as • -ible will oblige. Yours faithfully, R. JAMES, Correspondent. Rev J. H Roes: Seeing that the County Council elections will ta.ke place next month when the question of the actions of this Council with regard to the Education Act, will be brought before the electors at large, a.nd as the next County Council will be formed in accordance with the wishes of the neople of the county on this important question, I beg to move- that this correspondence be laid on the table until after the election in March. Mr W. Mabon Da vies I beg to second that. This motion was carried unanimously. BRITISH SCHOOLS. The Chairman said thait the next, business he had to bring before them was with regard to the British Schools, which it, was desired to take, over. That was, la, power which had not been delegated to the Education Committee,, so they could not deal with it finally. LLANGENNBCH SCHOOL. The Clerk said that the schools which it was desired, to transfer to the Council were Llan- gennech, Llandovery, Peniel, Pantteg, White Mill, Idole, Mvdrim, and Saron. All the necessarv advertisements! had been issued for the transfer of Llangennech School as re- solved by the County Council; and an order had, been made by the Board, of Education allocating one-third of the debt to the county and two-thirds to the parish of Llangennech. He should like to have a formal resolution that Lla ngennech school be tramsfered to, the Council. A resolution to thatefferet was unanimously carried. PENIEL SCHOOL TRANSFERRED. A letter was road from tiM Rev H. T. Jacob with regard to the proposed transfer of Peniel British School. It was impossible for the Congregational Church at Peniel to hand over the building absolutely. The school was the absolute property of the Church, and w=a,s not held subject to any trust deed i and the Church had let the, building to the committee of the British School They as a Church were asking for no control whatever; they did not ask to have anything to do with the appoint- ment of the teacher, the instruction given in the school, or the finances of the school. All they asked was to be allowed the use of the building after school hours when it was not required for evening classes. Mr W. N. Jones said that as chairman of the sub-committee which had visited' Peniel school, and as one of the members of the Education Committee, who had voted in the majority, he begged to move an amendment to the recommendation of the Education Committee—that the school be not taken over except it were handed over uncondition- ally. The sub-committee who had visited the place had reported in favour of taking over Pemuel school on the terms offered by the Church. If ihiei rememibered rightly, the Church was willing to hand over the freehold of the school and to transfer it entirely to the Council subject to their having the use of the building two nights a week when evening classes, were, not being held there, and if lie remembered rightly for three days during the year, Good Friday and Christmas Day being mentioned. Now as they learned from the letter, the Church at Peniel owned the buildL ing absolutely; the building was not vested in any way in any other body. Subject, to the, conditions stated, the Church was willing to hand over the, school to the Council far the benefit of the parish of Abergwili. Therei- fore, he, moved an amendment to the effect, that they accept the offer of the Church at Peniel, and that they take over the school on the terms named. Mr John Moyd sa-id that'hie had much plea- sure in seconding the, amendment of Mr W. N. Jones. He thought that the offer con- tained in the letter of the Rev H. T. Jacob was a very generous -one the schoolroom be- longed to the Church, but they were, prelptared to hand it over to the Council on certain con- ditions. In other parts of the county, those who required thei use of the schools after school hours had the necessary permission of the local managers. The offer was such a generous one that they ought to jump a,t it. Mr J. B. Rees: I beg to move that all Bri- tish schools be handed over throughout the county unconditionally. We, have done so at Llangennech. I think we have authority to speak on the matter. We handed over our school which cost us £ 1,500. You would, not build it to-day for £ 2,000. I think, Mr Chairman, speaking for us as; Nonconformists that, we ought to do this. We ought to be con- sistent with the principles which we profess. Otherwise we will make ourselves the laugh- ing stock of the other side. Let us hand over the schools unconditionally; and then, of course, we shall be consistent with the princi- ples we, are advocating. Mr J. Llew. Thomas Mr' Chairman, the two cases are not (parallel. Llangennech school was built by the Nonconformists of Llangennech. This school has been built by the church at Peniel. It is not a parallel case. I would support Mr Rees in all oases Where the schools were built by the public, not when they were built by a certain church. Mr J. B. Rees: Our school has been built entirely by thei Independents, Bajotists, and Methodists Mr John John rose to speak, Mr J. B. Rees oontinued speaking, and Mr Wilkins rose and said: He is out of order. He has spoken once on this subject. I rise to ,a, point of order. There are three of us on our feet now. Mr John Johns: I have much pleasure in supporting the motion. If we had only the same offer from the managers of the, National schools, there would be no difficulty about the Education question (applause). If we had the management of the school during the school hours, there would be no difficulty about lending it for a, couple, of hours in the even- ing, or about ending it for two or three days in the year. If we had this offer from tine National Schools! we would jump at it (a,mil a use). Mr W. Ma-bon Da,vies: Well done, Johns. The motion to take over the school on the terms offered1 by the church was carried almost unanimously. WHITE MILL SCHOOL. A letter was received from the, managers of White Mill British School stating that they were prepared to transfer the, school to the County Council to be used, for the puifioses' set out in the trust deed and subject to the following conditions Tha,t the Congregational Church of Abergwili retain the right to use the building for Sunday schools on Sunday afternoonis, and a-lso the, right to use the building for two nights in each week, and for a, day or two each year, the dates to be speci- fied by the congregation from time to time. Mr H. J. Thomas said that it would be well if they knew what the contents of the, trust deed were. Mr W. N. Jones said that possibly the Clerk would be able to tell them what the trust, deed contained1. The Clerk said that the only thing he found. in the trust deed was that the school was to be used to provide proper education "for the farming, manufacturing, labouring and the poorer classes.' Mr W. N. Jones said that it appeared that the school was not, vested1 in any particular tigioua body. Had the managers any right T'lTC^oitr^ °™such termiS they suggested. t,« iiv rpn }lie managers can transfer it denLii^ri" "XJy held on a„ rfpnmtiiinfinnni; • Ihere is no savour of Ti Wdk^ m What 1 liave read. Mi Wilkms They suggest that they should appoint the managers. ey s IOU Mr H. J. Thomas Have they jpiOfwer to ask for these conditions. The Clerk It seems to be the, inflicftion of a, denominational trust upon a, trust dieed, which is entirely undenominational. Mr W. N. Jones: I should think that by the trust deed, they have no right to pla,ce any conditions whatever. We should take it over on the lines laid down by the trust dle,ed. We should take it over unconditionally. This is quite different from Peniel.
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Mr John Lloyd said that for a very long j time, the chapel at Abergwili had had the use of the schoolroom for Sunday School and for week-night services. He did not, think that. if the members, of the church understood that they wouldl be, able to have the use of the school by aronlving to the managers, there would be any difficulty whatever. Mr Wilkins said that the Education Com- mittee gave thle managers full power to let the schools after school hours. That would only be a local question. Mr W. N. Jones I move that Mr Nicholas be asked to reply that the schools cannot be taken over on the comditione suggested, as they are contrary to the Trust deed if we take it over it will be unconditionally. Of course, if they wished to make an application for the use of the building after school hours, it will be for the managers to consider it. Mr W. Mabon Davies: I second that. The motion was carried unanimously. MYDRIM SCHOOL A letter was read from the Board of Educa- tion with regard to Mydrim British School. The Board said that owing to the unsatisfac- tory condition of the building which was' situated below the level of the road a.nd the dangerous approaches to it, they would not be able to approve, of it as. a Council school except there were, expended upon it a large amount for repadrs-an amount which the Board thought the Council would not like to undertake. Professor Jones said that he did not think it would be safe to take over the building. He thought that it, would be better to main- tain it as a Council school—but not take it over. Dr Thomas said that lie failed entirely to agree w,ith the statement that the school would cost them a lot of money to Xiut in re- pair. The, approach was by steps, which, of course,, for young children would! be a danger. There was nothing to prevent a gradual elope being made in place of these; steps; the cost would be infinitesimal. The school had been in a very bad financial condition for'a very long space of time. It was the feeling of the parishoners that it should be taken over without unnecessary delay, building and all. Since it was the wish of the parish, he1 did not think they should split hairs over a sovereign. Mr John Williams said that lie had had to do with the, starting of this school. He could not see what there- was against it. It was built of very good stone. ASKor the steps, it would be very easy—as Dr Thomas had poin- ted out—to put that right. Mr John Lloyd suggested that a committee visit the spot to report on the school. Mr John, Johns: What are we going to lose by taking it over. It involves no exjptense. We can repair it at a small outlay; if we refuse to take it over we have to build a, new school. Mr John Lloyd said that it, had better be referred to a small committee. It was lease- hold property; and they did not know what the condition of the lease were. Rev J. H. Rees said that he did not under- stand! how the Board of Education had recog- nised this school for so many yealrs; and now when they saw that the Couny Council was going to take it, over, and it was handed over unconditionally, the Education Department thought the buildings were not in ,a fit state. He would suggest that the County Council of Carmarthenshire was quite as capable of £ v'ing what, was suffcient, as was the Board of Eclucat,ion up in London. Mr H. Jones-Da vies said, that he had much pleasure in seconding Mr Lloyd's amendment. They had everything to gain, by visiting the place and seeing the condition in which it was Before the had taken over otlier schools, a committee had been appointed; to visit them. Mr W. N. Jones supported Mr Lloyd's motion. Dr Thomas said that subject to the Clerk being satisfied with the terms of the lease, be moved that they take it over. The Clerk said that it was held on a lease for 999 years at Is a year. Dr Thomas That is long enough even for Mr Lloyd. Professor Jones said that if they were com- pelled to build another school, they would not be able to dispose of this; they would have to leave it there. It was decided! by a majority to refer it back to the Committee. IDOLE BRITISH SCHOOL. Tlitei next matter was to consider the pro- posed transfer of Idole British school which was offered unconditionally. It was suiggested by ,several members that this be referred to a. committee to report on it. Ml" John Johns: What is the use of having the Surveyor's report. Are you experts that know better than he? It is only playing fast and loose. Mr H. Jones Davies: We have no report from the Board of Education with regard to this school. I move we first of all hear the report of the Surveyor, on it. Dr Thomas: I protest against this. We did not have the Surveyor's, report first on other schools. This is playing fast and loose. Profestsor Jones: This is freehold. If the building is worth nothing we have the site. Dr Thomas: Wei (have ony the Professor's word for that (laughter). There was a general gahble for a, few minutes, members, talking across the table to one another; and it was eventually decided to take the school over. LLANDOVERY BRITISH SCHOOL. The Clerk said that the next fry^hcation was with regard; to Llandovery British School There was at dielbt on it of £250. There was a constant gabble kept up by the members, so that it, was impossibe to hear (vhat the Clerk was saying. The Chairman Gentlemen! Please! We cannot, hear a, word up here that is going on. The Clerk said there was a debt of £ 250 on the school. There was a letter fro* the Board of Education stating that the school wais in a bad state of repair and the walls damp. The Board thought that steps ought to be taken to remedy this before" it. was re- cognised as a Church school. Thei report of the Building Committee was read. Tine members reported that they had visited th« |pjace. Owing to the inconvenient position of the. school andi the state of the building, they recommended that it be not taken over, but that the Council take steps 1 to provide a, new elementary school at Llan- dovery. Pending the erection of a new school 1 they recommended that the present school be maintained as a. Council school. Mr W. N. Jones said that he would like to < point out that Llandovery British School was one of the school^ which they agreed at first. i to take over-- when they went there they came to the conclusion that it would be better 3 not to take it over. There was no playground f and the buildings were in rather a bad state and they were boundl to1 come toi the conclusion J that they could not advise the Council to take it over. Mr John Johns pointed out that there was a. debt of JE260 on -the school. Would, they have to pay that? Dr Thomas: If we take it over pro. tem., are we liable for the debt? The Clerk We are not taking it over. We are simply maintaining it as a Council school for the time being. The recommendation of the Building Com- mittee was adopted. PANTTEG SCHOOL*. Mr T. Lodwick wrote with regard to Pant- teg British School. He said1 that the mana- gers were prepared to hand it over for 21 years at a rent of Is a year. The members of the chapel wanted it for a day or two every year, and for an hour occasionally after school hours. If this was not accepted, the mana- gers would not hold themselves responsible for anything. Mr W. N. Jones said, that the building was most unsuitable for carrying on a school in. So far as the Committee had! been able to find out, another school would have to be built for that neighbourhood in a, different situation. He moved that they; do not enter into a lease as suggested, but that the, managers'be asked to let it from year to year at a nominal rent. Mi- John Lloyd said that, lie did not sullpio-ie the managers would want rent for it, if it were: carried on as a, Council school. Mr W. N. Jones's motion was carried unanimously. SARON SCHOOL. It was, stated that the committee had not been able to visit Saron yet, and the matter was therefore deferred for further informa- tion,. Professor Jones said that they had had the cases of two British schools referred back to the Education Committee. At the last County Council meeting in October it was de- cided that in the meantime these schools were to be treated as Council schools. What about these two schools from this time out? Were tliey to be treated1 as Council schools. The Clerk said that Saron, Mydrim, and White Mill were carried on in the, meantime as Council schools, although the buildings were not taken over.—It was decided to con- tinue this arrangement for a further term. INSURANCE—THE POWERS OF THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE. Mr W. David said that he wished to1 refer .to the insurance of the schools-- Professor Jones said that that, came within the scope of t,he matters which had been dele- gait-ed to the Education Committee. Mr David said that he was only going to make a very mild sUiggootåon to the Education Committee. He could assure Professor Jones that he did not do so in any hostile spirit. He would simply romind them what had happened; one; office had been selected1, and that office, had been asked wbeher they would accept it on certain terms. He was not going to comment on that fact, although he might do so. What he was going to suggest was that this was a matter which the. Council might with great, profit keep in its own hands. Professoi- Jones: In that case I must ask your ruling, Mr Chairman. I say that that falls within the scope of the powers delegated to the Committee. Mr John Johns: It is a financial question. We have to deal with, the finanoe. Professor Jones: No, no. I say no. We have no right to di-scuss it; the, question has been finally settled. Mr John Johns: There is no question; you cannot deal with finance without the consent of the County Council. Dr Thomas: I rise to a point of order, Mr Chairman- Professor Jones I want your ruling on that point, Mr Chairman. Dr Thomas And I want your ruling before I sit down. I want to know whether we as a. Council have not a right to discuss any ex- penditure whatsoever made by the Education Committee. When the Education Committee was appointed by this -ouncil, I was given to understand that for whatever they did they were responsible, to us Mr H. Jones Davies: I object sir. his is a speech not a, question of order- Dr Thomas: It is a, question of order with an explanation. The Clerk said that the Committee had been delegated full powers except in the following matters—(1) the levying of a rate, (2) borrowing money, (3) the provision of new schools, (4) the transfer of schools '(5) the appointment of managers. On other subjects the decisions of the. Education Committee were not subject to revision by the Council and except, that at the commencement of each quarter, they had, to place before the Council a statement' showing the amount they re- quired to meet their expenditure. He had no doubt that that statement could be chal- lenged, and when the payment, of the pre- miums came before them, then that would be the proper time to raise the question. Mr W. David: This is a question of t75 or £100 a year. It is easy here for the chairman of the Education Committee to stop me on a technical point from dealing with it. If I know a bit about anything, it is on this point Mr H. Jones Davies: Have either of these gentlemen any locus standi in this matter, seeing that they represent Carmarthen and Llanelly, and this is (part 3. Dr Thomas: Wha does the Act say about delegation ? The Clerk said tliat the Act stated tha,t the County Council might delegate, all its powers except the levying of a, rate and the borrow- ing of money. Mr W. David said that he objected to so much power being given to the Education I Committee, but he was told that everything they did would come up for review before the Council. On the strength of that, and that 9 only, he supported the delegation of powers. Mr Wat kins: I take it, Mr Chairman, that I jam in possesion of the chair. I have been on my feet two or three, times, but I have had bo sit down in disgust. Can I now move that ive become our own insurance agents? Professor Jones: I ask you for your ruling igain, Mr Chairman. Mr John Johns: They are Council schools, lot Education Committee's schools. The Chairman This matter has been dele- gated to the Education Committee. Mr John Johns: It has not. The Chairman I take my advice from the 31erk, Mr John, not from you. Mr W. David: Would a motion on this, natter be in order? Mr Wilkins: Half a moment, Mr David. I ,m. not finished yet. I move tliat we under- ake the insurance, of the, schools ourselves. The Chairman I require notice of motion or that. Professor Jones: I must really ask you for low ruling again, Mr Chairman. It has been nally settled: for thei present. Mr Wilkins: I am not, interrupting you. teally Professor I The Chairman: I rule you out of order. I will permit no further discussion on insurance Mr Wilkins: "Very well; I give notice of motion (''Order Order I"). Mr H. J. Thomas Carmarthen and Llan- elly have their own Education Committee. They have no locus standi. Mr John Johns said that they must rescind the resolution which had given the Education Committee these powers. NEW SCHOOLS—LORD DYNEVOR WANTS A PLEDGE. Mr W. N. Jones in moving the adoption of the report of another member of the Educa- tion Committee pointed out that Farl Caw- dor had agreed to sell for t220 the land re- quired for the new school at Blaena,u. Lord Dynevor's agent wrote wih regard to the pro- posed site for a, new school at Ammanford, that his lordshijpi was not, preparedi to give a definite answer until the Council were pre- pared to carry out the provisions of the Edu- cation Act. The Committee had decided to take steps to acquire the site compulsouily. PUPIL TEACHERS' IJXAVELLING EX- PEN SES—ORDER AND DISORDER. Mr H. J. Thomas referred to the payment of the, travelding expenses of the pupil tea- chers who had toi attend the centres. Mr W. N. Jones asked the ruling of the chairman on the- point. Had the Council any power to reverse the decision of the Committee? Mr John Johns said that the Council had never intended to give these powers to the Education Committee. The Chairman ak,edi the Clerk for his opinion on the point., The Clerk: If the chairman leaves it to me, I should say it is decidedly out of order. Mr H. J. Thomas said that they had pro- vided centres for the pupil-teachers but this would be an extra annual exjpiense of JE400. It was quite a large matter; after paying the expenses of these pupil-teachers what guaran- tee had they that they would remain as teachers. Dr Thomas rose to speak, and, Mr H. Jones Davies also rose. They were speaking at the same time, and! _dJr H. J, Thomas was still talking. Mr Wilkins then rose and, said Whenever I see three gentlemen on their feet I always rise. Mr John Johns rose and said something which was inaudible amid the din. Mr W. N. Jones: You are not chairman of his Committee. You may be chairman of the Main RoadSi committee. Mr Wilkins: Order, order. We are too many talking at once. JL ask you as chairman to rule, and to rule strong. Dr Thomas Hear! hear' Rev A. F. Mills asked if he understood that they had to accept the whole of the report, and that they had no power to raise any question with respect to it. If that was so, he was exceedingly sorry; there was a. very important point in connection with the clerk and the treeasurer's salary which ought to be discussed. The Clerk stated that all powers had been delegated to the Education Committee with the exception of the levying of a rate and the borrowing of money (which were two statu- tory exceptions), the provision of new schools, the transfer of schools andi the appointment of managers. Dr Thomas said that No. 4 on the agenda, the levying of a rate for the maintenance of these classes ought, to be considered along with this. If they passed tnis now, they would be told when they came to No. 4 that they had pledged themselves to the, expendi- ture. The Chairman: I must rule you out of ordier. Dr Thomas: I am not out of order. I am only asking for your ruling. The Chairman: I can only go by the Clerk. Mr H. J. Thomas: Here you are prepared to run the county into an expenditure of £ 1,000 a, year without discussion. Mr John Loyd: It is just the same a8 the Standing Joint Committee, and you are a member of the Standing Joint Committee. The Chairman: I must rule you out of order. I cannot help it really. If you choose to give them power, you must abide by what they do. Dr Thomas: It is a. scandalous thing that expenses amouiiing to £1,000 a year should be asked for, and that we are notallowed to discuss it. I move that it be not received, but be handed back to the commtitee. Mr W. N. Jones: How do you make, it £1.000. Dr Thomas We can count; wei are as' good at figures "as you are. Rev. A. Fuller Mills seconded Dr. Thomas. Mr John Lloyd said that full power in this matter had been delegated to the Education Committee. Mr James John asked what was the good of wasting time discussing the report of tiie Committee if they had no power to reject it. Mr John Lloyd I rise to a point of order- Mr James Johns said that he had a (perfect right to speak on the question; it, was not. a question of elementary education. What, was the use of discussing a report if they had no option to reject it. Mr John Lloyd: It is exactly the same as the Standing Joint Committee and Asylum Committee. You ought to know that better than me. Mr John Johns: We shall refuse to pay the rate. That is what we shall do. We shall refuse to pay the -rate. Mr W. N. Jones (who presented the report in the absetnee of Professor Jones who had now left the meeting) said There are one or two points over which you have power accord- ing to the delegation. Dr Thomas asked that his motion be put. Mr W. N. Jones: With all due respect to my friend, Mr John, I suggest tihat he is out of order. Dr Thomas: I move that we de not discuss the matter further. Mr W. N. Jones: I did not ask you to dis- cuss it. Mr Wilkins: I do not see why they should address one another like this. They ought to address the cha.ir. This is only child's play. The Chairman: Docs anybody second Dr Thomas.. Mr John joiins. I do. Mr W. N. Jones: I venture to suggest Mr John Johns was proceeding to say some- thing, when Mr W. N. Jones remarked: I ask you to be gorodenough. to rule Dr Thomas out of order Dr Thomas Mr Chairman, are you going to delegate your authority to Mr W. N. Jones. Mr W. iN. Jones: I have a, perfect right to draw the Chairman's attention to the fact that you are trespassing on his rights. The Chairman I cannot say more than I have said. If you choose to pass it, and, give them all this power, you must abide by what they do'. -6- The Clerk said that a great (part of the re- port was brought up for the information of the Council, in the sense that the Council had no right to veto it. There were certain points upon which the Committee desired the imtruo tions of the Council, particularly the matter of school attendance, which was most impor- tant. Dr Thomas: I may be very dense. I do not understand our poisition. I want to know whether they have peen delegated powers to deal with primary or secondary education. The Clerk sai dthat the powers which had been delogated to the Education Committee included both secondary and elementary edu- cation. Dr Thomas: I am very gladi you have opened our eyes. Mr W. N. Jones: The Clerk has told you so fourteen times. ATTENDANCE OFFICERS. The Clerk referred to the resolution which had been passed by the County Council with regard to the attendance officers, and said that it had been interpreted by the, majority of the Committee to mean that attendance- omoers were not to be employed either for non provided schools or for council schools. Con- sequently nothing had been done during the last, three months to enforce school attend- ance. Whatever the wording of the resolu- tion was, the Council had only voluntary schools in their minds when they passed it; but the Committee, had interpreted it other- wise. The Council then went on again to have another involved, diiscussion on the (powers which had been delegated to the Education Committee. Mr W. N. Jones: I would like to appeal to the members of the Council for a moment. I would like for a moment to consider what has been explained by the Clerk that certain powers have been delegated, to the Education Committee. It is not the fault of the Educa- tion Committee that this power has been dele- gated to them. Dr Tlnomas I rise, to a point of order. The leader of the house is out of order. Mr John Johns: That vote was obtained under false pretences ("Go on go on!") Mr James- John was speaking, when. Mr John Lloyd said: I move that the Car- marthen and Llanelly members be not heard. They have Education Committees of their own. We can manage our own affairs. Mr James John said that be had a light toO speak a.nd vote on the question of puril- teachers' education. He submitted ihat Mr W. N. Jones had not, right to move the adop- tion of the report of the Education Committee if they had no power to deal with it. Mr W. N. Jones I submit thnt Mr John has no right to interrupt, me. I em in possession of the chair. Mr James John was 4peaking to the ques- tion, when he said "I have not finished yet, Dr Thomas; you are in a, great hurry."—Mr John then went on to say that the Committee wanted to know what the Council meant by their resolution on the subject of attendance officers. Dr Thomas: As the man who proposed that resolution, I am exceedingly sorry that the members of the Education Committee are so dense that they cannot understand plain English. Mr W. N. Jones: Some of them. Dr Thomas Some of them then I oog the other gentlemen's pardon. I remember per- fectly well. I proposed that resolution. When the subject came before us, it was with regard to the schools over which we had no control, and the Council had refused to accept. I was the mover of that, resolution. My memory serves me particularly on that point. Mr John Johns: It was never intended to apply except to non-provided sehqols. The Council never intended that the minutes should be as they are to give power on finance to the Education Committee. Col. Hughes It is difficult to read the Council's mind. Mr H. Jones Davies eaid that the Council had declined to pay the, attendance officers in voluntary school districts, because the Council had renounced voluntary schools and would haje nothing at all to do with them. Rev W. Davies: That is the only consistent attitude in view of the other resolution passed | by the Council that, no rate-aid should be applied to non-provided schools. If we em- ploy attendance officers we are giving money from the rates towards the schools. Mr H. J. Thomas: It is really a very serious question financially. It appears to me that the attendance is falling off already in some of the Council schools, because we have no attendance officers. I suggest that the Coun- cil formulate a scheme for the appointment of attendance officers in all Council schools. If we have no attendance officers, it will mean a, loss of £6,000 a year. Air Wilkins Suppose people send their chil- dren to the National school would that affect us. The Chairman: That would not affect us. Mr W. N. Jones said that the salaries of the attendance officers had not been paid. The Committee felt that, they could not pay the salaries, in view of the resolution which had been passed. What they wanted was a resolution to pay these salaries up to date. Mr Jones was speaking on the subject, when Dr Thomas remarked Mr W. N. Jones is very prosy and very verbose. Mr W. N. Jones: Don't be silly. You can call out as much as you like to-morrow. Dr Thomas: It is ancient history. Mr W. N. Jones It is not; and you should not be interrupting all the time. They are the servants of the Council, and. the question is are they to be /paid up until to-day or not. You say that no money must be paid for the | voluntary schools; some of these officers have been acting for voluntary schools. j Mr John John, We are not going to pay them. Rev W. Daviesi moved that, the officers be paid up to date. Mr H. Jones Davies: They have been work- ing for voluntary schools as well. Then we shall be giving rate-aid towards voluntary schools. I move that they be paid up to date deducting the share of their salaries for the voluntary schools. j Mr Daniel Stephens: We should have to pay them the same salary in any case. The Clerk: The only resolution I have is that, they be paid up to date. First of all, there are certain officers working in parishes where there are only voluntary schools. Are they to be paid. A Member: Yes. Mr John Johns: We are stultifying our- selves altogether by doing that. Mr John Scourfield pointed out that the Council had never takon over the voluntary schools, and the officers in these districts had never been in their service at a 11. He pro- posed that they pay these officers nothing otherwise they would be stultifying them- selmosl-in the eyes of the County. Mr H. Jones Davies: I move that the attendance officers be paid for their services as attendance officers to (provided schools only. Mr H. J. Thomas said that his parish (Llan- fynydd) was typical of many. They had a small Board School at which the attendance was 19 or 20, and here was a voluntary school at which the attendance was about 50. The School Board had an attendance officer, and he also acted as attendance officer for the Nat. School. Now that officer was taken over by the Act as the Council's servant. Were they going to pay him in fnII P Mr W. Mabon Da vies: Who was paying him for attending to the now-provided school. There was a general gabble amongst the memibew for about five minutes. At length Mr Wilkms said This question has been earned .oo before. mn% C1^irma« Has anybody anything to Mi- w declare the motion carried. T u on Navies: No, no. Mr John Johns: We can't deal with tins-: without rescinding the other resolution of the Council. Y oft have no right to put ny such resolution, because we have a resolution, that we are not going to oontributei anything towards voluntary schools. Mr H. Jones Davies: I move that the attendance officers be romunera-ted up-to-date for their services to the provided schools. Tne Chairman put the motion, and declared it, carried. Mr W. N. Jones: No, no. That was not carried. Rev W. Davies: I a*k you have we a right to pas-) that resolution or amendment Couldn't they come upon us, and claim the full amount? Mr John John The voluntary schools can come, too upon us. We must fight this like the other question. Mr James John suggeried that if it was the wish of the Council nov to pay the att. nd- ancie offioors for any worl done in connection with the voluntary s;ohoo• v, the best course for their, to tal e to determine the appointments of all attendance! officers. Then the officers out the cam of districts wliera