Denbighshire Free Press

DENBIGH ADJOURNED! LICENSNG SHSSlO^iS. As briefly r.t{)J tfo¿l in our la3t issue, the Adjourned l^ct'iiMog Sessions were hold on Frkl-iv, lasting from li a.m. to 5 p.m., m the County Hall, before the Mf-yor (Mr A 0 Evuns) presiding, and Col T A "Wynne Edv.-ards, Ur J R Hughes, Dr D Lloyd, -Air l Hnmphreys Robert Owen, T J Williams, J Harrison Jones, 1Vm Mel'lard, John Davies, and James Hud>:J. There was a crowded court, and great interest was taken in the proceedings. The magistrates met privately at ten o'clock, when matters affecting the licensed houses were fully discussod. Mayor at tha outset of the proceed- ings said that a fortnight that day certain licenses were objected to for the production of find others for the purpose of looking into the back door question. In the meantime agreements had been pro- duced in regard to a number of houses with which the Bench were satisfied, and certain notices bad been served on certain licensees with regard to back doors. That day all licences would be renewed except those ob- jected to by jjflr Jenkins, viz., the Mason's Arms and South Sea, Towusend, which would come before the court later on, and the three following :-The Chirk Castle Arnii;, Old Butchers' Arms, and the White Lion Inn. These would be further ad- journed for a fortnight. With regard to the back door question the justices did not that day order the alteratioES specified in the notices to be carried out. They simply | said -hat was desirable, and they wished the licensees to understand that distinctly. Also there might be during the ensuing months directions given with regard to eonsi lerahle structural alterations. On the last oc'MPion Mr Harrison Jones objected from the Bench to certain licenses, on his own account. Since then a meeting of the justicas was held at which the question was gone into, and the justices decided to hold a at an early, dite to consider the general question of licenses in the borough, also as to whether certain licenses in the borough could not be got rid of. On these grounds Mr Harrison Jones decided to withdraw the notices he gave on the last occasion. Mr Harrison Jones said he thought that the nLch would be better able to deal with the licenses than he personally, and he therefore withdrew his objection. Tiie Mayor Is there any agreement for the Old Butchers' Arms ? o Mr Edward Roberts (who appeared for the owner) said there was an agreement, but unfortunately it had been mislaid. If their worships would accept a similar printed agreement which the owner used be would be glad to produce it. The Mayor Have you someone to go on oath to say that a similar agreement has been signed ?—Mr Roberts Yes. Mr Montgomery said he was the land- lord of the house. There was an agreement with the tenant of the Old Butchers' Arms. The agreement produced was the same as that signed in the present case. The Mayor: What is the rent of the house ?—Mr Roberts X19 10s. The Mayor Is the tenancy an annual one ?-Mr Roberts Yes. The Mayor What is the notice ? Mr Roberts Three months' notice on either side. The Mayor, after consulting his brother magistrates, said We are satisfied to re- new the licence of the Old Batchers' Arms on that evidence. REV. D. E. JENKINS OBJECTS TO "THE SOUTHSEA." ASSERTS THE LICENSEE'S MARRIAGE" IS ILLEGAL. THE LICENCES GRANTED AFTER A BIG FIGHT. A formidable array of counsel appeared to fight over the licences of the South sea Inn and Masons' Arms. Mr A T Davies, of the firm of Messrs J Harper Lewis and Davies, solicitors, Liverpool (instructed by Mr Marston, Mold), appeared for the Rev D E Jenkins, Presbyterian Minister, Den- bigh, who objected to the renewal of the abo'. e mentioned licei-C 0, and Mr Samuel Moss, M.P., Barrister-at-law (instructed by Messrs Gold Edwards & Co., Denbigh), appeared jointly for the licensee of the Southsea Inn and the owner of the house, Mr Story whilst Mr Edward Roberts, solicitor, Ruthin, appeared for the appli- cation for the licence of the Masons' Arms. A POINT OF LAW. Mr Moss asked for a copy of the notice, because he was going to object to it. Mr Davies said it was rathep irregular, but he would give it him. Then the Rev D E Jenkins entered the Witness box and gave evidence. Mr Davies You objected verbally to the licence of the Southsea Inn being re- newed at the last sessions ?-I did, and served a notice of objection upon this house on the 11th February by registered post, of tril,-h this is a copy. This 3 the notice purporting to come from you, setter forth that you objected to the licence being renewed because (1) I the house is not required in this district (2) that the renewal of the licence was not desirable (3) and that the present licensee was not a fit and proper person to hold a licence." Mr Moss I notice that you gave your notice by the direction of the justices. I should like the order produced, Mr Cler. Mr Davies You have to prove it. There are such things as verbal directions. There are such things as implied directions, and there I meet your point at once. My client gave notice at the previous court, and has served his objection in a proper manner. Mr Moss said that no objection could be raised against the licence by the Rev D E Jenkins, unless the magistrates had author- ised him to do so. He C/uld point cases out which had beeo decided of a similar nature. Police-constable Howell Jones said he had served, at the instance of the Magis- trates' Clerk, a notice of objection to the license of the Sonthsea Inn. Mr Davies said he thought the Act of Par!-intent had been complied with. Mr Moss maintained that the Act of Parliament had not been complied with. They might have any objection sprung upon them before they bad a chance to judge the merits of the case. Mr Davies considered that his friend's objectibn was a most techaioal and flimsy one. His client had objected verbally to the licence when the justices adjourned t:e case, and he then served a notice ca the licensee of the objection. The licensee might have taken no notice of the objection, bat there was nothing in the notice to say whether it was given by order of the justices or not. But the licensee had taken the objection seriously, and Mr Moss ap- _u peared for him. Mr Davies quoted tbe case of Regina v. Kent and others to sup- port his arguments. Mr Moss said in the cases which he had quoted the objectlous were taken by the magistrates, which was very different to the present case. The justices objected themselves, but in the present case the magistrates only ordered a simple adjourn- ment. Mr Davies maintained that the objection was in order, because the Magistrates' Clerk had served a notice of objection upon the licensee, (juite apart from the fact that Mr Jenkins had served an objection himself. The Mayor We aro all of opinion that Mr Jenkins' objection is good. THE CASE FOll THE OBJECTOR. Mr Davies, in opening the ease, said that Mr Jenkins took the objection on public grounds, and upon the principle that every citizeu should take his part in connection with the licensing laws in any way he oould assist in furthering the administration of the Licensing Act. In connection with the granting of the licences J the magistrates met under different cir- cumstanoes than formerly. They wore aware of the fact that the granting of licenees must be more carefully done, and the justices must enquire more thoroughly into the applications for licences, and should reduce them if they were excessive Magisterial power aad duty had been pointed out to them, as it had not been pointed out for the last hundred years. The Southsea Inn was in a part oi the town which is almost by itself. It is cut off by the railway lino, &c., and seems a self contained district. He did not hesitate to say that he thought every justice who was present that day who knew the require- ments of that portion of the town would not say that three licences were requisite for this portion of the town. In respect to the licence of the Southsea Inn, Mr Jenkins considered that it was not required, and further that the licensee was not a fit and proper person to hold a licence, and that it was not in the interests of the public that a renewal of the licence should he granted. The guiding principles in which they acted was in the interests of the public, and not simply in their own or anyoue elses interest. Licences should not be granted but in the public interests, and he thought that the number of licensed houses in Denbigh was very high indeed, and he understood that the justices had decided to take some steps to reduce the number. In Denbigh there was one licensed house to every 186 persons, which he considered was an excessive pro- portion. There were towns like Bootle, for instance, where the largest steamers of Great Britain dock, and there was only one licensed house to every 929 of the in- habitants. But lot them examine the facts that existed with regard to the licence of the Southsea Inn. He was told there were 90 houses ia this part of the town, and putting four persons to each house, that made an average of 120 persons to each licensed house, which included every man, woman, or child, drinker and abstainer. He did not think that if they-the magis- trates-were meeting here for the first time and had an application for a licence for tho first time for the Southsea Inn thoy would grant it. But the inn was there and not required to be there. Another factor he wished to bring to their notice was that now there was nothing more recognised by magistrates whew they were granting licences, than that they must be careful to find out the character of a person to whom they were granting the licence. The applicant must be a fit and proper person to hold a licence. If his instructions were correct the licensee of that house was not a desirable and jfit person, and should not be entitled to the licence of this house. The justices were present to grant licences that day and, he wished to draw their attention to the fact that this licensee was living in this house with somebody who was not her lawful husband, who has a lawful wife still living and living in the town. He would say this that when the justices had inquired into the matter and if they found that statement well-founded, he could not conceive of any bench of justices lending themselves to it. He did not wish to say anything more upon that part of the subject, but in connection with the licensee of the house, the applicant had failed to produce evidence of a good character, aud the Legislature attached great importance to the character of applicants. He and his clients asked the justices to do their duty. He submitted that it was an indefensible state of affairs. He asked any man in Denbigh who knew the locality better than he did, whether the Railway Inn was not amply sufficient for that part of the town. =Mr imoss:, May I ask if my friend Mr Davies and Mr Marston appear for the objector ? Mr Marston Yes (laughter). EVIDENCE OF THE OBJECTOH. The Rev D E Jenkins entered the wit- ness box and--was SWOPS. Mr Marston How far do you live from the Southsea Inn ?—About 100 yards away at 17, Gladstone-villas. Did you have this notice of objection served ?-I served it through registered post And in your objection you say the licence of the Southsea Inn is not required to meet the needs of the district ?—I do. And you take this objection to this licence not only for yourself, but also in the interests of the public?—Yes, and for the public. How many dwelling houses are there in this particular district?—About 90 houses. Do you contend that the number of licensed houses in the district are exces- sive ?-I do. Can you tell the Magistrates what the class of customers are that visit the South- sea Inn?—Mostly women and the working class. Will you look at that certificate of marriage (prodnced)? Do you know the parties of that certificate of marriage ?— Y™ I know them personally. Are they &?th alive ?—Yes. And where does the husband on that cer- tificate of marriage live ?—At the Southsea. Does his wife liv with &P, she does in-at,, Do you know where she does live ?—I don't want to answer that. She lives in Denbigh ?—Yes. The name of the licensee of the Soutbsea Inn is Anne Roberts ?—That was her name; I don't know what it is now. The name on the sign is Anne Jones ?— Yes. Had the marriage of these parties ever been annulled whose names are on this certificate ?—Never. Cross-examined by Mr Moss How long have you lived in Denbigh, Mr Jenkins ?— Two years. Have you always lived at Gladstone- villas?—I have. How much less than two years have you I lived hero ?—About seven months. A year and five months?—Yes. The Southsea would not be in view of your house ?—Not exactlv. You have to go near the bridge to see this house ?-Only a few yards. And then you would only see the side of 1 it?—You can see the front of it. Wall, obliquely perhaps you can. You have counted the number of houses on the other side of the railway line and you mako them 90?-About that. Would you bo surprised to know there were 153 houses?—I would be loth to credit anything of the kind. I Have you been in Denbigh long enough to know the neighbourhood of the Green ? Yea, I am fairly well acquainted with that district. How much is the population there?- About 100. Have you counted these in the 90 houses you have just ucntioned ?-No, because you can count that in Trefnant or Denbigh. How many houses do you say there are there?—About 20 (laughter). Do you know Brook house ?-Yes. How many houses would you say there are thero?—Ahout the same number as the Green (renewed laughter). In giving my estimates it is difficult to know what Green and Brookhouse includes. They are scattered ?—Yes. Would yoa agree with me that there is a population of 100 in each place—the Green and Brookhouse?—No, there would not be that. Do you know that a great majority of ef the houses on the other side of the line have have been built subsequently to this house being licensed ?-Possiby they have. Brookhouse would not have been. Have you given any special attention to this house. Have you been inside it?—I have not. How many women have you seen going into this houso?—I cannot say. There are a considerable number. Have you specially watched the house?— I am constantly visiting the district, and back and fore half-a-dozen times a day. How many women have you seen going in and comiHg out of it ?-There are a considerable number. You have no idea as to what the trade is d6ing?—Well I should not think it was doing much during the day time. It does more during the night. Do you know that it is doing more than it did ten years ago ?-I don't know. Mr Maritan :-He has only been here two years (laughter). Mr Moss You cannot say whether women carried beer from here or not for home con- sumption ?-I cannot because of their shawls. Did you get this marriage certificate from the Registry Office, St Asaph ?-I got it personally. When were you first told that the names which appear on this certificate that the both parties were still alive ?-Well, about five or six weeks before I got the certificate. Did you make any enquiries into the cir- cumstances ?-Yes, as far as it was decent. It was a difficult matter to investigate. Don't you think it is a very serious state- ment to make on oath in the witness box ? -I would not make a statement that I could not verify. I had a conversation with Mary Williams," Richard Jones's wife. Did you enquire how long Mary Williams lived with Richard Jones?—I was told that the only reason for separa- tion was that Richard Jones would not be able to keep his post as engine driver on railway, as she (Mary Williams) kept a shop herself. Do you know that they only lived together for twelve weeks ?-I know that they lived more. Did you make any further enquiries ?— No, not beyond that. Did you inform tho owner of the house that the licensee had an unlawful husband ? —No. Did you know that Mr Story was the owner of the house ?-Not before I got that certificate. Do you know that this woman has been in this house for 15 years ?-I found that in the police report. Do you know that the police don't object to this house?—I should be astounded if they don't. Did you trouble to find out that the pre- sent licensee and Richard Jones had gone through a form of marriage ? —No, it was sufficient for me to know that it was not lawful. And you have made no farther enquiries ? —No. Don't you think it is a terrible thing to brand a man and woman like this in public? —I did it in the interests of the public. Do you think it is a charitable thing ?— It is not a question of charity. It is a question of granting a licence. Do you think it is a charitable thing?- No answer. Do you think it is a charitable thing; please answer me, Mr Jenkins ?-It is not a question of charity. I am here to do a public duty. Do you think that it is a charitable thing?--No answer. Of a fluctuating nature?—No answer. Do you know that this man Richard Jones (Southsea) was seperated from Mary Williams about 20 years ago, before he married this other woman ?-I did not know that there was a deed of separation. Do you know that this man never saw Mary Williams for 20 years at all ?—No, but it is a well-known fact that she is alive and it is a matter of public knowledge. Why does she call herself Mary Wiliams ? —It is Mary Williams on the certificate. Does she call herself Mary Williams now ?—I can't say. What do you know her as ?—Mary Wil- liams. Do you know that she calls herself Mary Williams, instead of Mary Jones I do not. Did not she suggest to you that there was a voluntary separation 20 years ago, because this man was working on the railway?-No, she says that was an excuse. Mr Davies: You have tried to deal with facts as you found them ? Mr Jenkins Yes, I have. You merely deemed it necessary to put facts before the justices, and leave it to them to decide ?—Yes, entirely. And you feel justified in submitting these facts to the justices that you knew about the applicant ?—Yes. Did you take the best steps in your power to get the facts ?—Yes, I did. THE DEFENCE. Mr Moss, in the course of a very able speech, characterised the case as most extraordinary. The applicant had been the tenant of the house for 15 years and there was no complaint against her. She was married 10 years ago to Richard Jones, who she thought W;Í! a free man. In the CYidSPce tj^ iiaa had there was no real complaint against the house. After she had been licensee of this house for five years she went through a form of marriage with Richard Jones. who shortly after his marriage with Mary Williams had separated from her under a deed of separation, after having lived together for only 12 weeks. From that time until Richard Jones married Anne Roberts he did not see Mary Williams, and had not seen her for 19 years. He thought that it was morally wrong to spring this matter on the licensee without giving her a chance to defend herself. He thought it was a shocking thing that it should be stated by a minister of the gospel who had taken the responsibility of the thing, bnt had not thoroughly investigated the matter and all the eircumstances of the case. If anything had been done amiss the licensee is the one pronged, and was sinned against more than sinning, and he was sure that when the facts of the case came out 1 they woald sympathise with the woman. After what had been said that day, he J must call Richard Jones, because as far as he knew he was a free man, free from Mary Williams. He had not seen her for a period Of 19 years, which in other courts of law had justified second marriages. There were cases in which men and women had married upon not nearly so strong grounds as in the present case. Apparently the only fault there was to find with this womRn was that she had married this man, and he pro- tested against it in the names of the woman and the owner of the house. He was sure that the facts of the case wre not half so shocking as his friend had outlined to them. Mr Davies had said there were only 90 houses in that part of the towa by the information he (Mr Moss) had received was that there were 153, and he would call a witness to prove it. Supposing that on an average there were four persons to every honse they had a population of 612, and together with the houses at the Green and Brookhouse, which would average at 100 each, they had a total of over 800 population Let them compare that with any other part ef the town. Here they only had one licensed house to every 266 of the population. He considered in the faoe of that that the justices could not start to reduce the licences in a part of the town that had the least licensed houses. He thought that they should have police evidence to show that the house was not i wanted. If the Bench objected to the present licensee having her licence re- newed, but he could net see why they should, he asked the Bench to give the owner of the house, Mr Story, time to put another licensee In. The present tenant had been the licensee of the South Sea Inn for the last 15 years, and he thought that it would be a very hard thing to say- when they heard that she had been the victim of eirournstances-tkat she was not a fit and proper person to hold a licence. Ann Jones said she had been licensee of the Southsea Inn for 15 years. There had never been a complaint of the conduct of her house in auy way or by anybody. She conducted the house in a proper and right manner. She got married to Richard Jones about ten years ago, but she did not know at the time that he had another wife living. Her husband had told her that he was a free man when he married her Mr Moss: And you have been married to him for ten years, and have no fault to find with him ?—No (laughter). You have had two children by this marriage?—Yes, sir. Are they both living ?—Yes, sir. The Southsea Inn is not a tied house ?— No, a free house. Do you do more trade now than you did ten years ago? -Yes, I do. Cross-examined by Mr Davies You say that this is a free house, Mrs Jones ?—Yes, I do. Where do yon send for your beer, &c. ?- Where I like. We send to the Coppy and the Burton Breweries, and to Scotland. This house belongs to Mr Story ?—Yes, sir. Do you want the Bench to believe that you sell more beer from Burton than from C,oppy ?-No, I have most of my beer from the Coppy. And you are expected to get it from there ?—Yes. You get the U best" part of your beer from Coppy ?—Yes. Or the greater part, Ijmean (laughter). I don't want to go into quality. What class of customers have you ?-All respect- able people. Do you mostly trade with women?-No. I mean you have more married women as customers than any other class?- Yes, all respectable working people. But that includes men and women. They don't come right past the Railway Inn from Brookhouse to your place, do they?-Yes, they do. Mr Moss Better beer there (laughter). Mr Davies: Brookhouse is about a mile- and-a-half off ?—Yes. Do you suggest that the house is neces- sary for the public of Brookhouse ?—Yes, but not mine alone. The Green also is as far off as Brook- house?—Yes. Is your house absolutely essential for the Green ?—They can please themselves where they go. How old is your eldest child ?—Twenty- four years of age. How old is the youngest ?—Seven years. Do you know now for the first time that Richard Jones has a wife still living No, sir. When did you hear it first ?—A few years ago. It has not been sprung upon you po-So, it has not. You have known of this for some years ? --I have known him to say he was a free man. You knew his other wife was living in Denbigh ?—Yes. Have you nothing to say about it?—No I suppose you know that a man cannot have two wives?—I didn't know he was married. You knew that he had another wife living a feN years ago?—Yes. Did not that make you enquire into the position ?—I understood him to tell me he was a free man. I thought he had a proper separation order. Did you make any enquiry?—No, I took his word. But, Mrs Jones, was it not a proper matter for you to enquire into?—I was content when he said he was a free man. You did not push the matter any further ? —I did not, sir. You had no fault to find with him ?—No. Didn't you threaten to take law proceed- ings against him ?- Yes, about three years ago. Even this man who you believed was a freo man ?—No answer. Didn't you have to consult a solicitor once as to his conduct ?—Yes, but it was my fault then. Have you got your agreement here ?-I have no agreement. Was not your agreement ordered to ba produced by the Bench ?— Yes, it was. Mr Moss said there was one question he would like to ask with the permission of the Bench.—The Mayor: Very well. Mr Moss; Your husband told you three years ago that lie was a free man ?—Yes; and I believed him. The Court was then adjourned for lunch, and when the COURT RE-OPENED, Mr Davies asked for the applicant to be recalled. Mr Davies: I understand that you had two children? Applicant: Yes, I had by my first, husband a daughter, aged 29, and my second daughter would be aged 28 last December By my second husband I have two children, aged 9 and 7 respectively. What was the one aged 9?—A girl. You have spoken to people about your husband's first wile ?-Yes. And you suggest that* she is not his wife ?—Yes. And have you not suggested to people that she was not his lawful wife?—My husband has said she was not. Have you ever seen her yourself ?—No. The Mayor: Do we rightly understand that the majority of your customers were married women ?-Yes. Mr Moss: I do not know whether you followed the question. Have you more women than men Customers :No, I have not. You moan the men form the most of the customers and not married women ?- Yes. With regard to thi,8 marriage, had you the remotest idea that there was any obstacle in the way to stop you from marrying Richard Jones ?-No, I had not. RICHARD JO&S' EVIDENCE. Richard Jones, to whom the applicant had been married, was nest called.1 Mr Moss: I tiunk you were first married to Mary Williams in the year 1873?—Yes, I was, at St Asaph. How ioug did you live with her?—About nine or twelve weeks. Did you got on well together ?-No. Were you a widower when you married her ?—Yes, I was. With children ?—Yes, three. Did you think she was unkind to your cilildren ?-Shc, was abusing them. Did the dispute as to the children lead to you leaving her ?-It was not that, because I did not knew about the children then. ( What other reason was there why you left hei*?—She threatened to cut my throat with a razor and poison me. Did these unpleasantnesses lead to separation ?-Yes. Did you see a solicitor about the separation order afterwards ?—Yes, I saw Mr WHO Williams, of Rhyl. Was there a deed úraWJl up by him ?—Yes. Did Mr Williams tell you any thing about the deed of separation [-1\ far as I under- stood I was a freo man." I After seven years you did not see any- thing of ner ?—No. I saw nothing of Mary Williams until I went through the form of I marriage with the present licensee of this house. How long did you live with Mary Williams r—About U or 12 weeks, and that was in 1873. Now you went through this form of marriage in 1892. Did you tell her that you were a free man then ?—Yes I thought I was a free man and I think so still, And you have lived with her uutil now? —Yes. There are two children?—Yes. I oee in the certificate that you are put down as a widower?—It was at the registry oliice we were married. Did anything take place but that you were free to marry ?—No, nothing. Where is the deed of separation ?-It is at Rhyl. 1 never saw it afterwards. And you regarded yourself entitled to marry this woman who passes as your wife? —Yes, I do. You were an engine driver on the rail- way ?-Yes. And you left it on account of ill health ? Yes, three years last November. Do you own property at aU Yes. Mr Davies cross-examined the witness. When do you say you saw Mary Williams last i—When I left her as far as I remember. Do you know where she lives 1-1 do not know. Will you swear you do not know a single house in which she has lived in Denbigh since you separated?—No, I do not Will you swear it?—I cannot say any- thiug. I have never interfered with her since. When I finished with her I finished with her. I tried her twice (laughter). Do you know she has lived in Denbigh ever since you separated from her ?-Yes, I knew she was at Mr Davies, oabinet maker's last. When did you see her last?—In the year 1873. Do you know that she has lived for some time the other side of the railway bridge 'I —No, nothing. I never interfere with her. Will you swear that you did not know where she lived ?-I do not know. Have you ever heard that she lives in Denbigh ?—Yes, I heard she lived here, but that was all. And you had no reason to doubt that she lived here ?—1 cannot say. Have you the deed of separation here?- It is in the office at Rhyl. It is there I left it, and have never seen it since. Did you tell Anne Roberts that you had been married ?-I told her I was free. Did you tell her that you had been mar- ried ?—Yes, I did. Did she know Mary Williams was alive? —I .never told her that. Have you any reason to believe that she knew that Mary Williams was alive ?-Yes, I said I bad a deed of separation from her. Did you say that she was alive ?-No. Mr Harrison Jones: Did you both sign that document that it is said was drawn up between them ?—Witness Yes; but she was to go to Rhyl a day or two after me to sign it. Mr Moss Was the same solicitor acting for both parties?—Yes. ° When you married the present licensee you did not tell her that Mary Williams was alive or not. Nothing beyond that you were a free man?—I did not say any- thing, but that I was free. Mr Davies: I do not know if the bench would ask if his real wife saw the deed and signed it, there is no evidence. The Mayor Well, it has been answered, he says the same solicitor acted for both. Mr Moss said that the same solicitor was acting for both parties. If there was any difference between them it would not do to bring the same parties together to the same office at the same time. Did Mr Williams make the deed for both of you ?—Yes, that must have been so. How did you know that ?—She had orders to go to Rhyl to sign it. Who from ?—The solicitor. How did you know she signed it?—I went there and paid him. At any rate you say she was to go tnere and sign it?- Yes, she was to go there, but she could neither read nor write. ME STORY IN THE WITNESS IIOX. Mr Story was the next witness called. Mr Moss: I think you are the joint owner with your sister of the Southsea Inn (-Yes. Is it an old house?- Yes, it has been there for generations, I should think. Is it a tied house?—No, it is not a tied house. Have you ever heard or made any com- plaints about the house ?-No, nothing in the slightest degree. Have you any fault to find with Mrs Jones ?-No, nothing; no complaint during the 15 years. No fault at all?-No, she has been a most satisfactory tenant in every way. Any complaint about the house as to the conduct or morals of the tenant?—No. I believe she is a good business woman ? —One of tho best (applause in court). And the husband is a steady man ?-As far as I know. You know that the house is doing more business now than ten years ago ?—Yes, for I happened to turn the lodger up before coming to court. Mr Davies said that be must object to that, because if he was going into figures it must be fully gone into. It was not fair to gn into details of the trade and refer to the ledger without pi oducing it. Mr Moss: I am entitled to say generally that the house does more business. Mr Davies: You are not entitled to say r that and then go into details. Mr Story: I will give the details. I don't wish to hide anything (applause). I Mr Moss As a matter of fact the house I is doing more business during the last year ? —They are having more from us on an average than they had ten years ngo. I Mr Davies: You say that this house has had more beer from you than formerly ?— Yes. But that does not follow that it does more trnAe if it's not a tied house r-It does more trarlo Do you say that they have a barrel of beer a week mora than they used to do?— Mrs Jones is the tenant, and "she can say that last week she got a barrel more. All that you can say is that she takes a barrel of beer Y,-iore.-I can say that it is one of the most valuable houses in Denbigh (applause and orders of silence in court'). The Mayor: The court will be cleared if this takes place again. Mr Davies: I suppose it is at your in- stance that Mr Moss appears for you f Mr Story Ho is appearing for both. Mr Moss: Yes, Mr Davies, in my case I appear for two, and you two appear for one (laughter). Mr Davies: You did not think it neces- sary to bring your books here?—I did not know they would be required. Mr Davios You say that the house is not tied, but as owner surely you expect the tenants to take their beer from you ?— There aro breweries in Denbigh and Liver- pool. I never ask any questions as to where my tenants get their beer from But is there not an expection that they should take their beer from you?—They take their beer from me, but I never ask them where they get ic from. Yon buy a house to feed the brewery ?- I buy a house so that it shall be fed by a home industry to some extent (hear, hear). Do you say that this house is essential for T,rool.liouse I-Well, it is the nearest house but one, and some people like my beer bettor than that they can get at the Railway Inn (laughter). One licensed bons-- is not sufficient for the district?—No, it is not. In my time this district has much increased. Is there flrst-elass accommodation for man and beast at the Southsea Inn ?-- There is reasonable accommodation, but not of the best order. What stabling is there?—There is stabling for one or two horses. I am not the licensee. Mr Davies After that I wont ask you any more.—" I am not the licensee." Mr Moss You expect your tenants to take as much of yonr beer as they can. Mr Story I don't press it. You say that this district has increased ? -It has increased about three times its former size in my time, and the licence of the Forester's Arms by the turn to the station has been taken away too. William Owen Davies, solicitor's clerk to Messrs Gold Edwards & Co., said that he had counted the houses in this particular district, which amounted to 153, not 90. He counted th"e houses himself, and the number of inhabitants makes the population 559. He produced the notes he had taken of the houses in court. Mr Davies: Whom did you obtain in- formation from ?-I know the district. And who helped you ?-I called at any house which I did not know. May I take it that this is the estimate of the namber of people there ?—Yes. Did you go round with this book ?-Yes. What is the matter with 88, Park-street ? —The house was locked. Do you include people that do no live there ?—No. Mr Moss said if there are four persons to each house the estimate would come to 612 persons. Continuing, Mr Moss said: That is all my evidence. Mr Davies addressed the bench for the objector, and contended that the accom- modation was not sufficient to grant the licence of the Southsea Inn, and if the licenee was refused the present tenant there was no reason why they should grant it to a new one. All Mr Story could say when he asked him whether there was pro- per stabling at the Southsea Inn was that "I am not the licensee." With regard to the unlawful marriage of the licensee to Richard Jones he maintained that when Richard Jones had told her that he was a "free man," that was sufficient to imply that something was wrong, and he thought that the licensee must have known that he had another wife living. Mr Moss addressed the bench for the applicant and owner of the house, and said there was an imputation in Mr Davies' ad- dress to the bench that Mr Story was not telling all the truth in the witness-box. Mr Davies: I did not. Mr Moss continuing, argued that there was no evidence to show that the house was not properly conducted and the licensee bore a very good character, and he was sure there was no possible reason why the licence should be endorsed. THE MAGISTRATES' DECISION. The magistrates retired for a short time, and when they returned The Mayor said: We have, by a majority, decided to grant the licence of the South- sea Inn. THE MASONS' ARMS LICENCE. It was suggested from the Bench that as they were going to consider the licences generally, they thought Mr Jenkins had better withdraw his objection from the Masons' Arms. Mr Davies: I can well understand the suggestion iu dealing with the thing as a whole and treating it as a whole, but there are one or two facts in this case that it is desirable that we should deal with now rather than next year. There are some things peculiar to the Masons' Arms apart from the general question of over supply, and because there are such circumstances we think- that the Masons' Arms is better dealt with now than next year. Mr Edward Roberts, who appeared for the applicant for the Masous' Arms, said that evidence in connection with this house would be as valuable next year as this. If their worships were going to deal with the licences they should deal with them al- together. The Mayor (addressing Mr Davies): You have had the expression of the Bench, and you can proceed if you like. Mr Davies I think that it is a duty to deal with this house, because the house has been closed for the last five weeks. Mr Edward Roberts: It has not. I thought you wanted to close them though (laughter). Mr Moss, who appeared for the owner of the house, said as the magistrates had over- ruled his first objection in the other case, ho would not raise an objection in this. Mr Edward Roberts now formally asked for the renewal of the licence to Mr W R Ogborne, and objected to the notice of objections because no directions were given by the Bench to authorize Mr Jenkins to object to the licence. He also objected to Mr Jenkins' notice because the original objection verbally made with the previous coKrt was not upon oath. The case proceeded. Mr Davies said that his objection was to the Masons' Arms, the circumstances of which they had already before them. They objected on the ground that the house was not required, and because the house had been closed off and on, and on occasions had been closed a greater part of the day. He. considered that the licensee was not fulfil- ling his obligation for the monopoly the bench had given him, because a licence was granted to people who were supposed to cater for the wants and comtorr of the public. He asked them to say that this licence was not wanted. 1 Mr Jenkins said he thought a third house in uhis neighbourhood was not necessary. He had observed that the house was con- ducted in a noisy way, there being singin- and playing which gathered children about be place, which was not pleasant for foot passengers^ He had heard the loud singino- of men s voices and one time in particula? he had found reason for complaint in May last, when there was more noise than usual lie went in and asked Mrs Ogborne if she uad a music licence. He had noticed that J^te h°uso had been closed several times On the 1Jth of June ho knocked at the door aoout 9.30 p.tn. It was in darkness andTe x," a resolution from tne \j.on Chapel which was signed by the deacons. The resolution was to the effect that the undersigned learnt with satis- faction that the justices had determined to reduce the licences, and they hoped that the Mason s Arms' licence would be re- moved. signed, E Jones, Thomas Hooson, John Jones, H Davies, and E Mills. Mr Edward Roberts: As far as yonr ob- jections to the house go, they are identical witn those to the Southsea ?—Yes, they are. Do you object to music?—No, I do not object to the piano as a family instrument. Now when you went in en this occasion, what did yoa want ?-Well, I wanted to know it the house was opened. And because it was closed from time to time it was a thing to be done away withe -Yes. Do you know any reason why the house was closed ?-For the want of a supply of drink. J Did you notice for how long at a time the house was closed ?— Well, it would not be open very early in the morning, and closed early at night Do you know that Mr Ogborne had to close it in order to go to his meals?—That is what I object to. Do you know that there is a large yard attached to this house?—There is a yard used as an ashpit, not for stabling. I Do you know there is stabling for four horses there?-! should be surprised. Do you know that it was vour duty to complain to the police ?-Well, I have com- plained to the police oi other things, but I did not on jtliis occasion, because they would think me the "censor of Denbigh." Mr Davies Do you know any other pub- licans who close their places t6 go to their meals?—No. Presumably MrOgborne baa no servants, barmen or barmaids ?—No, but he has two daughters who help birr. I think that the yard has one or two ash- pits in it ? Yes, and not very clean either. Sergt Farrell said he had seen the Masons' Arms closed two or three times between 10 and 11. He knocked at the door and a neighbour told him that Mr Ogborne had gone to another honse-at the bottom of Yale-street. He had seen Miss Ogbornc carrying a large jar from the Southsea Inn. There was not much trade done. Cross-examined by Mr Davies: Witness said he did not know how long the house had been closed, or that Mr Ogborne went home to his meals. People coming from St Asaph and Rhyl would call at this house for refreshments. He had seen people from the country stopping there, and there was stabling for four horses. He had never heard any complaint abont music or sing- ing. He had never heard that there were formerly public-houses in the Green and at Brookbouse, but there were places that might suggest it. After a short deliberation, the bench decided to grant the licence, as they were going into the general question of reducing the licences at a later date.