The Carmarthen Journal and South Wales Weekly Advertiser

T 1 — Carmarthen Borough Education Commitee. SHE COST OF VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS I TO THE RATES. REV. JOSEPH HARRY'S "NO-RATE" RESOLUTION LOST. t A special meeting of the Carmarthen Borough Education Committee was held at the Guildhall, Carmarthen, on Monday night last, when the Chairman (the Rev. Prebendary C. G. Brown, Principal of the South Wales Training College) presided. There were also present: The Rev. D. J. Thomas (vice-chairman), Miss Spurrell, Ald. Walter Spurrell, Mr. G. Treharne, Rev. Father Madden, Rev Joseph Harry, and Mr George Phillips, together with the Clerk (Mr. Thos. Walters), and the Deputy Clerk (Mr. Anthony Thomas). The Town Clerk forwarded a copy of a IC- sclution passed by the Town Council that !io Education Committee be requested to w. *isli to the Council, before March 1-6 next, MM estimate of their probable receipts H *<I expenditure f"i the year ending 31st March, 1905, distinguishing the receipts and expen- diture in respect to Provided Schools from those of Non-provided Schools, and at the same time report to the Council whether it was necessary to make any provision from the rates in such estimate in respect of Non- provided Schools for the said year. This was the only business of the meeting, and the Clerk had prepared the same at the requisition of the Town Council. The state- ment was read by the chairman, who, in a few prefatory remarks said the expenditure varies, being dependent upon the salaries of teachers, books, apparatus, light, fuel, and rates of minor expenses. The receipts were from two sources: Government Grants and rates. Government Grants were of thret, kinds: Block grant, 22s per head in case ot boys and girls; and 17s. for infants; fee grant, 10s. per head, and then there was the new grant called the Aid Grant, which was also 10s. per head. Taking the schools in order, the return gave the expenditure of probable receipts, and then the denclency, which must be made up in each school from the rates: Pentrepoeth School, expemhture, JE1385 8s., estimated receipts, £ 1,20J bs., leaving a deficiency of JE176 2s. Quay. St. School: Expenditure, £ 348 8s. receipts, ;!183 19s: leaving deficiency R164 9s. Johns- town School: Expenditure, £ 242: receipts, JE142 2s; leaving a sum of L99 18s. to be re- ceived from the rates. Priory Street School: Expenditure, £ 807 18s; grants, £ 584 8s; leaving the sum of £ 223 10s to be received from rates. National and Prac- tising Schools: Expenditure, £ 88o 8s; re- ceipts from grants, £ 710 8s. deficiency, JE175 to be received from the rates; St. Mary's Catholic School: Expenditure, ;ClSr) 4s; grants, jE118 10s; deficiency from the rates, £ 66 14s. Therefore they had this estimate of the rates required: For Pentre- poeth. £ 176 2s; Quay Street, £ 164 9s; and Johnstown. £ 99 18s; total. £ 440 9s. Priory Street, £ 223 10s; National Practising £ 175; St. Mary's, JE66 14s; total, E465 4s. Total rates required for all schools, £ 905 13s. That answered the enquiry what rate would be required for the scnools, and it also ant- sw4red Mr. Harry's enquiry whether rateB would be required for the Voluntary Schools or not. It is very evident rates will be re- quired. Rev. Joseph Harry: With that, distribu- tion of the money. The Chairman With regard to that mat- ter, I think a fuller explanation ought to be given as to how it arose that the amount of rates required for one set of schools wae X440, and for the other JE465. They knew by the present Education Act that when the Noll-provided or Voluntary Schools were thrown upon the rates, n extra grant was given by the Board of Education to meet the expenditure in order that the rates in any particular locality should not be unduly increased. That was called the new Aid Grant. That new Aid Grant had never been paid before to Board Schools on their aver- age attendance until this Education Act came into existence, and therefore, as a set off against the rates, they must take into consideration the 10s per head on all chil- dren the Board Schools, which lessened the rates to the amount of 10s. per head upon the number. To make his deduction clear he had drawn out a total himself which he would like to draw their attention to. as he thought it put the matter in a light which was quite correct from the figures sup- plied by the Clerk:—For maintenance of all schools-Annual expenditure. £ 3,854 6s annual Government grants £2,48 13s, an- nual charge on rates L905 18s; annual charge on rates for Voluntary Schools, E484 10s, new annual grant to meet this charge (757 children at 10s.), JE378 10s net annual increased charge on rates for Voluntary Schools, 286; for school buildings—annual cost to rates (interest on and repayment of loans) for 757 children in Board Schools, £540; annual saving to rates by existence of school buildings for 704 children in Volun- tary Schools, £ 502; net pecuniary saving to rates by*the existence of Voluntary Schools, subtracting R86 from R502, which leave* £ 416. In explanation, the Chairman said, if the Board Schools did not receive that £S78 10s., the cost to the rates would be R464 plus R378. He took it the net annual increased charge on the rates due to this Act was really R86, and was for maintent- ance. Side by side with the charge for maintenance, they ought to consider what were charges on the rates for loans and re- payment of loans for school buildings, etA. Nothing was paid for interest on loans for the Voluntary Schools. Supposing those schools did not exist and they had to pro- vide them. the additional cost would be J6502, which would be the interest on loans for building such schools, taking the same rate as the Board Schools-for 737, £ 540, 717. R502. Therefore, the saving to the rates was £ 502, by the existence of these schools. Taking the maintenance of the schools, the actual saving to the town was the difference between £ 502 and JE86, which was 416. He did not see any other way of forming a real idea of what their financial position was in a town such as this, without taking the two questions into consideration. They could only arrive at the difference the ucation Act had made to the town in this way. First get the expenditure for th-i whole year. and then estimate the grants for the whole year and deduct one from th- other. That gave them the sum which must be paid cut of the rates, JE905. Then the question arose, how was it the rate for the, Beard School had fallen so much as it had done, to £ 440. which wax considerably loss than before. The answer was that the ne* Aid Grant was given to relieve the town to the extent of 10s. per head upon the chi! dten in the Board Schools, L378. While there was an apparent charge fn the Lown of C464 in the form of rates- for -lip. V oltu. tary Schools, on the other side ".i a decrease of R378 due to their new Aid GriL-at and therefore the difference betTeis these two would give them the lint »-ost to the rates caused by taking over the Voluntary Schools £ 86. Did Mr. Thomas gi-oe with %&at? The Rev. D. J. Thomas.—What about tebia £ 540 due in repayments of loans and in terest? The Chairman.—That is given here. The Rev D. J. Thomas.—It is the amount, I take it, that we have t;o pay on Counoii Schools, and will decrease year by year as it is paid off. The Clerk. That will remain the same and principal and interest being repaid by equal annual mstalmeats. The Chairma,n.-Biit it will decrease, and be paid Qff. What is the time? The Clerk said that the repayments were °rer a Period of 40 years. „T Chairman.—In 40 years time 7011 cas- not male the comparison in regard to the lIOhool —5 iJ —Tt will remain as far ♦iLA*-oluntary Schools are concerned, if] Actis m force at the time The Chairmn.-If the Voluntary Schools jleS £ rjyed ?r reverted to the donors. had t?Jbn!],d schools to take their place, you would still have £ 502 to pay. nrrivl ?* Thomas: I think you could y?r result m a better way, viz., SjlinSiJ total cost of the Council's chools, and then taking the average p-r JJ ha7e paying £ 540 right Jhilh' jVe, been paying off some loans i—o O1y0Ua+°n -take into consideration, ake Quay Street for instance. Alderman Spurrell.—But this won't run out for many years. The Clerk.—It is an item which is going to nish. The Chairman.—Yes, I know. Even if we don't take into consideration the school buildings at all, still the increase in the rates is only JE86, and it will never be more. Rev D J Thomas.-The better way would be to take the total cost of the Council School building, take the average per head, then multiply, and take a similar average in the Voluntary Schools and compare them. The Chairman.—What ever way you look at it, it cannot be a loss to the town in re- gard to rates. Voluntary Schools are al- ready built, and they have to be repaired by their managers. Rev. D. J. Thomas.—That is perfectly right. The Chairman: What I want people to do is to take a fair view of what the Education Act is, because I think on both sides, each, from what I see in the newspapers, take a vi ong view of it. One magnifies the expense and the other magnifes the relief to-he e o town. Rev. J. Harry.-What do you say it will be for the coming year? The Chairman.—Such a sum as will give £;;09 to the finance of the Schools, plus --he £540 in interest and loans on provided schools. The Clerk said part of the block grants in nc n-provided schools would not be paid that The Chairman thought that if the Board of Education were asked to pay the amounts due before the 31st March, they would do so. The Clerk.—I don't think so. Rev. D. J. Thomas agreed as the Board of Education had given the Education Com- mittees throughout the country power to borrow money to tide them over the diffi- culty. They would want a sum of L1373 13s. 9d. from the rates next year to meet their liabilities. The Clerk said that the balance due on the aid grants, which oyfght to be received be- fcre the Slst March, but which they would not get until the end of April, he had car- ried into the account for next year, because they had completed their accounts as far as the Town Council was concerned. In next n ars account there would be a sum of £<\87, that ought to have gone into this year's account. Rev. D. J. Thonjas.—We are just where we were-last year. The Chairman said that fear had been ex- pressed that there would be an increase in the rates. Alderman Spurrell.—The poi it is what will be the balance to the bad? We re- quire J61373 odd actual cash from the rates to work the school. plus the grants. How much have we had for the year finishing now. and what will be the balance to 'he bad ? The Chairman.—It is only a balance to 'he bad because the aid grants are not paid. The Clerk.—I should say £ 487. Rev. D. J. Thomas.—If we had had the block and aid grants paid now before the new school years commences, instead of hav- ing a balance to the bad, we should have a balance in hand of £ 600 or £700. Certain members of the Town Council were surprised to find we had an over-draft at the bank, forgetting that we borrowed no moftey, and most Education Committees throughout the country had borrowed large sums of money, extended over a period of years, so that the repayment will be gradual. Carmarthen Town won't have any loan to repay, if they meet this deficiency now. To start with a clean sheet now, all we shall want from the rates will be L1373 13s. 9d., and we must rev- member that the Carmarthen County Edu- cation Authority has borrowed £5000. Alderman Spurrell.—Don't you think that this should be carried on to this year? The Clerk.—That is a matter for the Town Council. I auite agree with you, and 11 think you ought to borrow the money, and extend the repayment over a period of ten years. years. Alderman Spurrell did not see that they vere called upon to raise that money by actual rates. They should borrow as the Clerk suggested. It was unfair to the Com- mittee, who were really placed in a false light. The Chairman.It is a difficulty which is created everywhere owing to the difficulty in paying the grants. rihe Chairman.—Will anyone prodose. that tkese accounts shall Le laid before the Town C< unoil ? Rev. D. J. Thomas proposed the resolu- ti(,n, and Alderman Spurrell seconded. The Rev. Joseph Harry said he wtuld more the following am^ndni^Mt rn.mely: — That in roply to the enquiry of the Torrn Council, this Committee iesires to i-f-pt rt that, inasmuch as the St;hi*-Is f the town did not require iity ,ù from ihe local rates, no provision f-oro lie I-t-s te made in the estimates lor the pnetui. g \ear in respect of those sch.uls, and that IIPI c r- dingly, this Committee • <sgs I" uliv !.ie the Town Council an incre-^e r the Fdur-atiop rate in 1904 as altogether uanc joMiry." He did not suppose it was necessary for him to remind this Committee If, lw i-)-,i t;i's. on up by the Nonconformists (f Carmarthen as regarded this matter. There were several reasons why the Nonconformist ratepayers of Carmarthen object to the statement of the estimates as put forward that evening. One of the reasons was that this Committee had not adequate control over these schools. He would not elaborate the argument at present. Rev. D. J. Thomas: I tAm sorry to inter- rlint Mr Harry, extremely sorry, but should not Mr. Harry's motion be taken as a separ- ate thing altogether. The Town Council asks us to report, and we have only got to answer by resolution in reply to the request of the Town Council. The Chairman: Mr. Harry should prove ,that the Voluntary Schools do not require any aid from the rates. The Clerk has shown us the Voluntary Schools do require it. and has given the amount required. Mr Harry, to prove his case, has to show that the Clerk is wrong. Rev. Joseph Harry: I have to prove they don't require money from the rates. Rev. D. J. Thomas: My point is that it should come as a separate thing altogether. The Chairman How can I ask you to submit this in answer to the Town Council, when one part of the Council's request is to sav whether the Voluntary Schools require aid from the rates. Mr. Harry has to prove they don't require anything from the rates. Rev. J. Harry: In that case I will pro- ceed. The Chairman: Please to confine yourself to the argument. Don't say what the peo- ple of the town say of this or that. The question for us is whether these schools re- quire rates or not. Rev. J. Harry: By a preliminary remark o" two I was going to show my reasons, first, that we have not adequate control. The Chairman: What has that got to do with the rates. Rev. J. Harry I think that has got some- thing to do with the matter. The Chairman: It does not show they do not require the rate. but that you don't wish to give it to them (Laughter). Rev. D. J. Thomas: That is my poiat. Mr Harry's attempt is to convince this commit- tee that we should not reeoranaend the Town Council to make ? rate for Non-provided Schools. I The Chairman: He has only got to show it on on* ground—that they don't want it. Rev. Joseph Harry: That is what I am noing to prove if you will allow me te pro- ceed. That is the Doint I have in my mind. The Chairman: I must ask you to con- fine yourself to the figures submitted. I Re*. J. Harry: Very well I will connne myself to the figures, and make the remarks I want to make on this schedule. You state here thftt the annual saving to the rates by the existence of the school buildings-- I The Chairman: We have nothing to do with that. What we have got to do with is maintenance. I put that paper in your hands in order to explain what the position of affairs is. not with regard to the main- tenance. The question before us is for the maintenance of the schools. Rev. J. Harry: So you absolutely forbid me to make that remark? The Chairman: Yes. The Chairman: Yes. Rev. Joseph Harry: It means you want *'5n? us £ 1,500, and you say vou contribute i;>00. The contribution of the public I say therefore, £ 1,500, and the contribution or the ( hurch people is £ 500 according to ycur own showing. That means in point of 1 management, and we ought to get thrQ81 managers out of every 4. I The Chairman: Mr. Harry, that has no- thing to do with the rate. Rev. J. Harry: The main point of my a gument is that the Church people them- selves have repeatedly stated they required no money from the rates. I think I will prove that and be in order. The Chairman: I don't think that is quit* ia order in this Committee as a Committee. Rev. Joseph Harry: Cannot I put your own statement in evidence that we don't re- quire it? I have your own statement. The Chairman: Produce my statement Mr Harry.—I have it here in this bundle The Chairman: Produce my statement Mr Harry.—I have it here in this bundle of papers. Church people themselves have said over and over again that the requne no aid from the rates. From your own state- aid from the rates. From your own state- ment and those of Archdeacon ETanl-take for example the following statement of Archdeacon Evans made at the St. Davids Diocesan Conference at Aberystwyth in 1902. "In Carmarthen Borough there new aid grants will cover the whole of the cost of Church Schools with JE313 to spare. Again in the Carmarthen Borough there will be a reduction of 2d. in tho rates for the mainten- ance of the school." Proceeding to the statement of Principal Brown, I notice at a meeting held at tho National Piactising School in the October of 1902, you said Here in Carmarthen it is said that when the Model, Priory Street, and St Mary's Roman Catholic Schools have to be main- tained out of the rate, the rate will go up. Now the rate will not go up. By this Bill there is an additional grant of one million pounds per year, and that will cover the ex- pense which will be caused by taking over all these schools, and making them exactly the same as Board Schools. The amount we will get out of that £1,000,000 will quite cover all the expense of taking over these schools, and therefore the ratepayers need not be doleful about taking over these Schools." The Chairman.—I don't deny having said so. • Mr Harry You further said that in eertain cases where it was 2s. 6d. it would go down to 4d., and in no case would it be higher than 5d. As a matter of fact it was lOd. new. The Chairman.—See people are misled by figures. WThat I said then does not prove that thev don't want money BOW. Mr. Harry.—I have a pamphlet issued during the Munioipal Campaign of 1902, headed "Fair-play to the Children," and a question put in that was Must the money come from the Rates ? The answer was No the Government offered a new grant." Another pamphlet issued by the Church Party in the same year, 1902, stated that the new grants would provide more than suf- ficient to meet any additional charge, which the taking over of the Voluntary schools might place on the local rate. I think that will amply justify my statement that Church men themselves have repeatedly stated that they would never require any money from the rate. Now, Sir, these statements have created an impression in the minds of the ratepayers of Carmarthen amounting to an expectation that you, as Chairman of this committee, and other leading representative Churchmen will do your very best to keep the promises you have made in public on various occasions. They have every right to expect that. Yes, and in the first place, we take your statement as Principal of the Training College, and the Archdeacon's al I Warden of a public school—and School- masters when they dabble in figures are ex- pected to arrive at a correct result-and I according to your own showing—in your own way of working it out-an increase in the rate, on account of Voluntary Schools, of 1 JE86. The Chairman.—That is so. Mr. Harry.—You worked it out your own ( way, and on your basis, and it comes • to; that- I consider that bad arithmetic on the part of Schoolmasters at any rate (laughter). In the second place they regard you, Sir, and Archdeacon Evans as experts in Educa- j tion- the makers and framers of public 1 opinion, the authors and inishers of Church people's faith in this matter (laughter), and I think you should have been more .careful in making those prophecies at-any-rate. And having made the statements, you should j have done your best to keep the figures down j to the level it was. You, Sir, and Arch-, deacon Evans are Church dignitaries, and your honour is pledged with regard to the 4 statements you have made, and the public expect you to keep your words, on the grounds that you are both foundation mana- gers of these Church Schools, and should have fixed costs in all inspects. You and Archdeacon Evans have tried to work out4 in figures that not a penny for the mainten- ance of these schools would ever come fromi the rates. But in making these calcula* tions, I think, you have made a mathcma- I tical error. In the last circular which Arch-, deacon Evans issued in the form of a reply to the Town Council—and this is an error which I wish to emphasise as constituting the fundamental error in all the calculations of the Archdeacon-he worked out the money in this way. Government grants to Voluntary Schools, block grants for 717 children, JE732 10s. Od., which item was cor- rect fee grant for 717 children. JE358 10s. Od and that was correct. The next item Arch- deacon Evans says The new aid grant for 1,454 children amounting to JE719 10s. Od." That last item I consider the fundamental error, because I expected the ArchdeacoR to calculate the new aid grant on the 717 child- ren attending the Voluntary Schools. The Chairman.—Why? Mr. Harrv.—How many children attend the Voluntary Schools? The Chairman.—The new aid grant is paid ii all the schools non-provided and provided. Mr. Harry.—I want-you Sir to answer my question, and I will show you how I make it the fundamental error. What would the aid grant be for 717 children attending the Voluntary Schools? I think it would come to £ 808 10s. Od. And what would the aid grant be for the Council's Schools? The Chairman.-£3ö8 Od. Mr. Harry.—Supposing that we had both grants allocated to each respectively? The Clerk.—Half to each. Mr. Harry.—But Archdeacon Evans ap- propriated all the money to the Voluntary Schools ? The Chairman.—I don't know how he ex- pressed it. but he said the new Act gave the town a new grant of 10s. per head all through, and through the school. The money which came into the town was not 10s. per head on 717 children, or 737, but on the whole lot. Yr. Harry.—And he wants it all for the Voluntary Schools. Alderman Spurrell.—He does not allocate n to the Voluntary Schools. Yr. Harry.—He says if he can get all the money, the Voluntary Schools will not cost the rates a penny, and he has based his oal- culations on that. I say that calculation is fvndamentally wrong, and if it is intention ally so, I would brand it as the arch quibble of the Archdeacon. I object to the basis on several grounds, in the first place on ac- count of that numerical error, which was a serious and grave, in the calculation, and on that matter of fact I strongly object to al- Jc*«ti* £ and distributing the money ia 4rbis wst7- IB the aeeend place he ohieetesl t« th« B'ethod owing to it's serious injastiee te Council Schols. I think that you will have noticad that the average attendanoe the boys at Pentrepoth is larger than the aver- age attendance of all the Chnrch Schools DQt together for boys. These ar* the figures Pentrepoth. average 299; Priorv Street, 8fl; Model, 114; St. Mary's R.C., 40, total, 249. There are more boys by 56 in average at- tentlaiM* at Pentrepoth, than at all the Cauroh Schools put together. I say it is wrong to put money earned in Pentrepoth ynd district. in the pockets of teachers i» these Voluntary Schools. Would y«u. gir consider that earned by you at the I rawing College, should be «»iren to teachers II other Training Colleges? 'Jbe Chairman.—I don't follow yen exac^lv I What, money is earned at Pentrepoth that goes to other teachers ? Mr. Havrv._I mean the new aid grant shmSd? man-'Wh0 H d"« <"• then1 -Archdeacon of Carnmr- en. I Chairman.-Oh no. There is nothing ) In la,. Mr. Harry.-Our estimates this evening I nre based unon that conception. I obiect to this wav of looking at the matter. It will re- I tr.c.ve all incentive to excellence in the Vol- bchools. To see the money earned in Council School used the benefit of Voluntary Schools will damage both causes. The teachers in the Voluntary Schools will feel if the new aid grant, does not come to much, that they will get what is earned else- where to help them. It would tell badly on the attendance, and in seeing the money earned in one school going for the benefit of another, it will have a very bad effect upon thi Board Schools. I object to Archdeacon Elans' proposal owing to the spirit of rapacity it breathes. He wished to say that that new aid grant war- to bring the Voluni- tary Schools up to the standard of-the Boari Schools. In speaking of the ratepayers pro-I pi-sal, I speak the mind of the majority of I the ratepayers of Carmarthen, I must say that they would vote for this proposal— that all grants earned by Voluntary Schools should be allocated to them, but nothing out the grants. That, Sir, is the opinion and the determined proposal of the ratepayers of Carmarthen, and the sooner we realise it. the better it will be for us. This proposal will do no damage to the Voluntary Schools. The Voluntary Schools themselves by adopt- ing this proposal will be better off than they were before the Aot came into operation. I think it is a vital point, and I must, there- fore. ask your Attention to it. Now 1 he ev. penditure for all the Church Schools in 1901 -pleasenotiae the year I chose for com- parisoB-was £U6J 7s. 5d., while for 1902, the expenditure was J61547 3s. 7d., an in- crease of JE184 16s. 2. I want to emphasise the fact that the expenaiture was increased in the year when the Bill was before she House of Commons. These schools had all their salaries increased. ) Aid. Spurrell: No. ) Father Madden: No; not in my school. Rev. Joseph Harry: I can easily verify that. Aid. Spurrell: You have been courteous enough now to make some exceptions, but you did not do that at first. Rev. Joseph Harry: Yon say the Roman Catholic School did not increase. Suppose we consult the printed form: Headmaster's salary (1 gOl), £81; (1902), £85; is not that an incrle Father Madden: Yes. Rev. J. Harry: Very well, why did you StaT no The assistant teacher in 1901 was JE.5 10e, and in 1902, £11. The Chairman: Salaries in most schools increase automatically. Rev. J. Harry: I wont »ay all the teachers in all the schools, but with three exceptions they received an inorease in their salary, and if any man says no to that, the proof is in my hands. Aid. SpurreU: What about Priory Street ? Rev. J. Harry: Head teacher (boys). 1901, £140; 1902, £lü; (girls), 1901, JE89 3s 4d; 1902, £103. Miss Spurrell: I can explain that we hnd three teachers during that year. The hcad- I master left and a temporary teacher was en- gaged for three months, and she left, and then the third teacher touK her place. Rev. J. Harry: That may be an explana- tion. but I insist upon the fact. Miss Spurrell: That has one down since. Rev. J. Harry: I deal with 1901 and 1902. Still I say and challenge any person to show me different, that the salaries of* all the teachers in all the Voluntary Schools went up that year, with three exceptions. And one of those exeeptions may be eliminated because in 1WS the National and Practis- ing School gave the head teacher JE18 rise. The Chairman had been trying to get an ex- planation of that and failed. If there was uny explanation he would be very much ob- liged to get it now.. The Chairman: It is not for me to explain kindly go on with your argument. Rev. J. Harry, proceeding, maintained, therefore, that these schools would be far better off than they were in 1901 if they took the grants only. The total increase for 1902 was £186 in salaries alone. Ihey might ask what would be the total amount of the grant under the proposal he made. Take the grants in their estimate that even- ing. which amounted to .t1,H.t 6s. That wsuld be about JM3 more than they had in the year 1901, 10 he ooncluded the intoler- able strain that foundation: managers and other Church people had been groaning un- der and eeoasionally grinning, ought to be completely removed, if they gtJt the grant only and net penny from the rates, He thought also, in adopting that proposal, to give the Voluntary School*'tile grants only that committee would in ne-way infringe the law. lie was not a lawyer, but he would quote the opnien of the Town Clerk, which -> thought was worthy of considera- tion In a letter written to the "Western Mail," a few months back, bearing upon the no-rate" agitation, he said It may be worth knowing here that the position of an Education Authority which should, without issuing any previous manifesto, pursue a policy of starvation towards the non-pro- vided soheols individually. would be less easily assailed than that of a Council openly adopting the Lloyd George programme." He (Mr. Harry) did not want to starve the voluntary schools he was quite willing for these schools to have all the grants, and he had shewn that by having the grants only they would he better off by £52. His next argument in favour of no-rate for these schools was that the majority of the rate- payers of Carmarthen had-* pronounced a very definite opinion on the matter. They had voted on one occasion on this very issue. At the last municipal election there was no other issue before the ratepayers whatever. The question was put befow*them in print, so that they might come to a deliberate re- solution on the matter, and he need not point out to them the result. Five members out of the six, all pledged to carry out the wishes of the ratepayera regarding this very matter, were eleoted, and he thought, inas- much as this body, and the Town Council also, was a representative body. they should pay some heed to the voice of the ratepayers The ratepayers of Carmarthen expected them to do their duty. They might have a duty to the teaobers and children attending the schools, hut they had also a duty to the parents of the children, the ratepayers of Carmarthen. If they said they wanted an article worth £1,250 a year, let them have it. and when they said they required a better article, let them pay for it. but in thp meantime he could assure the Committee it v. as their opinion and wish that the rate during the coming year should not exceed £1,250. and therefore an amend- ment that they name as the rate for the coming vear The Chairman Yon must put the amend- ment in the form of a resolution that the scheeta won't require a rate at all. Our re- solution is thatr it will be necessary. Mr. Harry's anaendTnent i. that the schools don't require any aid at all. whish is a negative. Mr. Harry ha* given as all his reasons does anvone seeond that ? Rov. D. J. Themes urged his point of erder. He thought Mr. Harry's amendment must be put in this wav. either for or against, the report, whether or not it be necessary to make any provision fo.. the ] rates in snoh estimate with respect to non- wrovided schools. He felt thev must think it nee^ssary. (Hear, hear). But it was a very di€erent thing from saying they must ^•t. Mr Har»*y's argument Was that they t 1rOG 1 vdvifte the Tew* Ceuneft not to make » rate. That was 8j very different thing, freni it was net aeowwiary. 1 The Chai.rtaas Mr. Harry's argument is +bat we shenk} not adviser-but the words of 1,:s '••solution are that they don't reonire. I We has not shew*, or attempted to show, ".solution are that they don't reonire. I We has not shew*, or attempted to show, j that thev don't. Rnt; he has attempted to show why we should net advise them, there-, fore hii argument* are quite apart from his re«elutien. lev. D. J. Thomas I maintain we should ve*e either for or ai»«nist the report Th* Chairman: It c&me to the same thing. A .t. was taVen. when there ,er,. for the rewort: The Chair^uan. Rev. D. J. "ronI;1S. ♦Id. SUraiTell. Mi8 Sk)Hrrell. and father Madden. Against: Rev. Joseph Ha rrv anJ Mr George Phillips. Mr. Tre- I hai-n* ren»p'»ed neutral. Rev. J. Ha rrv then proposed that the I Committee should not advise the Council to iri"-«n«te the Education rates. There was no seconder, and the resolution .1J +0 <h^ ground. AM. SpHrr«ll thought answer should b*-made to the remarks of Mr. Harry. Ho that, the Archdeacon in his letter had Slimed in some mysterious way these extra ne*- grants. The Chairman: I don't think this is the r1:lco or the occasion to explain the letter of the Archdeacon. We give Mr. Harry a ceri- I tain amount of latitude, but I don't think it I well to go on with the argument. Aid. Spurrell: I don't think there is a shred of logic in the argument, or any trufch in the statement thltt the Archdeacon claims for the Voluntary Schools JE719. The Chairman: I think I rule this argu- ment out of order. Aid. Spurrell: I am very sorry. The Chairman: I suppose it is our advioe to the Town Council to meet this Committee by a loan for a certain number of years rather than by and additional rate. The Clerk: They don't require our advice. Other business was routine.