Flintshire Observer Mining Journal and General Advertiser for the Counties of Flint Denbigh

COUNTY COUNCIL AND THE DEE. 'Bill Not to be Proceeded With in this Session of Parliament. CHANGE IN THE FINANCIAL POSITION. •Development Commissioners Pre- pared to Make a Loan. NO OFFER OF A GRANT. Lively Discussion by the County Council. FUTURE OF THE SCHEME. Proposal to Promote a Bill Next Session. A special meeting of the Flintshire Coun- ty Council was held on Monday morning at Mold, Ald. F. J. Gamlin presiding. The business as set forth in the agenda, was to -consider the following resolution passed by the joint committee having charge of the promotion of the Dee Conservancy Bill. "That the Bill be proceeded with on the 'Understanding that the County Council members are not pledged to the proposals 'Contained in the Bill until the whole resolu- tion has been submitted to the County 'Council, and the action of the joint com- Jnittee approved." A letter was read from Alderman H. Summers, stating that he had heard the de- l 0 cision of the Development Commissioners. He was sorn that he was unable to be pre- sent at the meeting of the County Council. The fact that the Commissioners, after the most searching investigation, had decided to ::give substantial help to the scheme would, he believe, have the effect of allaying the tloubts and fears which some members of .the Council had honestly held. History of the Scheme. The Chairman said it might be of advan- tage to the Council if he stated the present position and gave a history of the project. On April 26th, 1913, the clerk to the Dee Conservancy Board wrote to their clerk stating that there were private contribu- tions promised to the scheme of IC9,250, ana that they expected a free grant from the Development Commissioners of £ 30,000. The Dee Conservancy Board were going to contribute £ 6,500. There was a. deficiency, therefore, of £ 29,250 to make up the total ■of £ 75,000. On July 9tli the Dee Commit- tee-that was to say, the committee of the County Council—were informed on the authority of the clerk to the Conservancy Board that the private contributions were £ 19,350. The deficiency, therefore, was £ 19>150, instead of £ 29,250. On July 30th the above figures were presented to the Council, together with a statement showing that £ 9350 of the private contributions were loans free of interest for seven years. The f,t,.itement also showed expected contribu- tions from local authorities amounting to £ 3,577 per annum. On September 18th, the Council agreed to contribute to the scheme. In November an inquiry was held at Chester relative to the application to the Development Commissioners for a grant of £ 40,000. In December the Bill now before I Parliament was drafted, and in that Bill the local authorities' contributions, includ- ing the County Council contribution, were ■capitalised at £ 56,900. The Mold Urban 'Council were originally included in the con- tributing local authorities, their amount be- ing fixed at £ 142 per annum, but that Coun- oeil had refused to be specially rated. In -April, 1914, the Chester Corporation de- fined to contribute. That reduced the k56,900 by £ 14,000. The Buckley Council only agreed to make a grant conditionally. The present position was that the private contributions amounted to nothing, but there were private loans—free of interest for seven years, and then to bear interest at -four per cent.-of £ 6,100. The Conser- vancy Board's contribution was C5,000, the "difference of P-1,500 being swallowed up in £ he costs of promoting the Bill. There was ao free grant from the Development Com- rmis.sioners, but the Commissioners would 'loan at 31 per cent. two-fifti-,s of the total, which was not to exceed £ 100,000. The eum guaranteed by local authorities was £ 42,900, including E31,000 from the County Council. The net result was that there was only zP,5,000 free; all the remainder was to be borrowed. The members of the Council had received a copy of the letter from Mr. H. E. Dale, secretary of the Development •Commissioners, as follows :—■ DEVELOPMENT COMMISSIONERS' OFFER. "I am directed by the Development Com- XIlíssioners to inform you that following on their interview with Mr. Summers on the 20th March they communicated with the Chester Town Council concerning the Council's attitude towards the scheme for improvement of the Dee Navigation; I am to enclose a copy of a resolution ]r'eh was passed by the Council on the c Commissioners are willing to re- th6 Treasury to assist the scheme 5t 0an from the Development Fund on the lines:— (a) That the sum of £ 100,000 in all shall e Mailable if required; (b) That of this sum the Development Fund should lend two-fifths (viz. £ 40,000) if required; (e) That if the works cost less than £ 100,000, the amount of the loan from the Development Fund shall be reduced pro- portionately, so as not to exceed two-fifths °f the actual cost; (d) That the loan from the Development Fund shall be secured on a mortgage of the lands, rates, and charges levia-ble, and other income or assets of the Conservancy Board, after any loans which the Board may raise in order to provide the remain ing three-fifths of the cost of the scheme, and shall rank after those loans for pay- ment of interest and repayment of prmci- Pa(1e') That the loan from the Development Fund shall bear interest at al per cent. per annum and be repayable in a period of 50 years as is provided by the Act go- verning the operations of the Conservancy Board (f) That payments on account of inte- rest and principal shall commence as from the 1st April, 1920, or the comple- tion of the works so far as possible with- in the limit of Y-100,000, whichever date is earlier; (g) That if, after providing for other loans, the available revenue of the Con- servancy Board does not suffice to meet charges for interest and sinking fund on the loan from the Development Fund as they become due, and it is decided not to enforce in respect of such charges the legal rights of the Treasury as mortgagee, the arrears shall be paid up (in addition of course to the ordinary payments on the loan) with interest at 3 £ per cent. per an- num as soon as the Board's revenues per- mit (h) That if after a period of five years from the time when payments in respect of the loan are to commence it is fouiul that the income of the Board-. does not suffice to meet the charges or ¡le loan, the Board shall use its best efu i ts to ob- tain at its own expense such powers of levying additional or new rates and dues as will enable the Board to meet those charges. "3. I am to enquire whether the .Board are disposed to accept conditions of this na- ture. The Board will understand that tfie proposals outlined above may need further elaboration and definition in detail and that various non-financial matters will require to be considered before the Commissioners can submit a recommendation to the Treasury. But sufficient particulars have perhaps been given to enable the Board to come to a de- cision on the financial aspect of the scheme, and unless there is a prospect of a satis- factory financial arrangement, it seeme use- less to discuss other aspects of the scheme such as its bearing on drainage and fisher- ies. "4. The Board are of course aware that any recommendations made by the Commis- sioners require the approval of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury before they become operative." CHANGED FINANCIAL POSITION. Mr. R. Frank Jones lRhyl) moved "That this Council, in view of the terms of the letter from the Development Commission- ers, and the serious diminution in the pro- mises of financial assistance, herewith de- cides to withdraw from the Bill, and urges the Dee Conservancy Board to do like- wise." He said he had no doubt that that resolution summed up the present feeling of the Council with regard to the scheme. Whatever might have been their individual views regarding the scheme, in view of the terms made by the Commissioners, he had no doubt that it was well nigh impossible for the work to be carried out, and if the work were carried out there was a serious doubt whether it would be a financial suc- cess. The whole financial position had changed since they last considered the scheme; as a matter of fact, the financial position had always been changing, and never been fixed. On April 26th the finan- cial position was as follows :-Prornised con- tributions, £ 9250; available funds of the Conservancy Board, F-6500; expected grant from the Commissioners, C30,000, making a total of £ 45,750, and leaving a deficiency of £ 29,250. The important fact to remember was that they were told that there was a free grant of £ 45,750. On July 9tli, the matter was again discussed, and they were then told that the free contributions amounted to £ 19,350. The deficiency was then estimated at £ 19,150. That increase in private contributions was due, they were told, to the fact that there was an anony- mous contribution of £ 10,000. He did not want to labour that point. When Mr. Smith attended the County Council meeting he was catechised severely as to that £ 10,000, and he definitely told fhem that it existed. The argument underlying it was that there was somebody in the county who had such faith in the scheme that he was prepared to put down £ 10,000. That was a fact which weighed very considerably with some members. In July they still un- derstood that there was that anonymous contribution of £ 10,000. It was not until July 30th that they were told that the £ 9,250 promised locally was free of interest for seven years. The Chairman Before the resolution was passed the Council were informed that it was to be a loan. Mr. Frank Jones replied that what he said was that they were not informed on July 9th. Why was there that keeping back of facts? On July 30th it was sug- gested by a statement printed and circular- ised, and having all the appearance of authority, that the various local authorities had consented to rate themselves. What was the object in printing that? They had no guarantee that the authorities named would levy the rates, yet the impression was left on their minds that the various Coun- cils had such faith in the scheme that they would vote a rate in support. Their late chairman emphasised the point that if they thought £ 40,000 would not be forthcoming from the Development Commissioners, they would not proceed with the Bill. They had not got that £ 40,000. When the Bill was drafted the annual contributions of local authorities were capitalised at £ 56,900. Since then local authorities had dropped out, and there had been a serious decrease of £ 17,000. Mr. E. G. Evans: What is Rhyl doing? A LOAN, NOT A GRANT. Mr. Frank Jones replied that Rhyl re- fused to have anything to do with it. They were sensible, like Chester. All the sense appeared to be on the confines (laughter). They were told they could expect a grant of £30,000 from the Development Commission- ers. They had not got a grant at all, but they had a loan of 3t per cent. per annum. Any sensible man, seeing that fact, would immediately come to the conclusion that the people responsible for advising the Commis- sioners had no faith in the scheme. The point of view they had taken was, "You may squander your local money, but you are not going to squander national money. We are prepared to grant you £ 40,000 or two-fifths on the understanding that we get 3i per cent. on the money." That fact itself put the question of proceeding with the Bill out of the question. The first condition was that the sum of zC700,000 should be avail- able if required. Where were they to get that money from? There was a balance of £ 7,000 required. Col. B. E. Philips: £ 12,000. Mr. Frank Jones said they could not get the money from the County Council. They were pledged to a limited amount; they could not go back on that, because it was embodied in their Bill. He supposed there were some philanthropic gentlemen locally. He wondered whether they would be pre- pared to give that £ 12,000? Mr. Jones concluded that he had no doubt that the Council were dissatisfied with the way the whole of that thing had been managed, and he asked them not to proceed with the pro- motion of the Bill. "HAREBRAINED SCHEME." Ald. J. H. Ellis, who seconded, said he considered the scheme of itself a mad and harebrained one. The Government in- spector said in his report that the amount estimated was very tight. The Council ought to consider its position frankly, ow- ing to the changed financial position. The anonymous donor of £10,000 had disappear- ed altogether. From every point of view, and especially the commercial point of view, the Council ought to be chasy of giv- ing its support. Mr. T. W. Hughes moved an amendment to the effect that having regard to the terms proposed by the Commissioners, it was impossible for the Council to proceed with the Bill in the present session; and that the joint committee be reappointed view, the Council ought to be chary of giv- with power to negotiate with local authori- ties, landowners and the Development Commissioners, with a view to the promo- tion of a Bill in the next session. Mr. Hughes said he thought they were all agreed that they ought not to proceed with the Bill in the present session. The Chairman: That does not kill the scheme. Mr. R. S. Gardiner seconded the amend- ment. Mr. W. Buckley, supporting the amend- ment, said that to proceed with the Bill in the present session would be hopeless. It was possible that by negotiation they might do better. He did not want to kill the Bill, but he thought that in its present con- dition it was absolutely impossible. Col. Philips remarked that he was sorry he could not support the amendment which had been proposed by Mr. Hughes. The reason was that he had never looked upon that scheme as a honest one. As everybody on that Council knew, he had fought the scheme up hill and down dale ever since it came forward. He thought it would be much better if the whole scheme were dropped. It could not be carried out for the sum of £ 75,000 (hear, hear). If the county of Flint made up their minds that something ought to be done with the navi- gation pf the Dee, they could go in for a bold and honest scheme and tell the Com- missioners, "We want a great deal more money than this." After what he saw at the Local Government Board and the De- velopment Commissioners, he very much doubted whether they would get any more money for that scheme. Most people on the Council thought he was absolutely against any development of the Dee, but that was not so. He was perfectly willing to support a scheme that would do good. He did not think anyone would say that the present scheme could be carried out sat- isfactorily for such a miserable little sum. Let them start the whole thing again in a straightforward manner. Mr. G. C. Alletson, supporting the amendment, said that f.75,000 might not be very much, but well expended it would mean a great improvement. Ald. R. Allen (vice-chairman) said he did not think any of them were against the de- velopment of the Dee. Mr. Frank Jones, in his endeavour to kill this Bill, would kill all further progress in the development of the river. If the present Bill were with- drawn, a new one could be constructed. Mr. J. E. Buckley Jones said the scheme was an inadequate one, and the figure had been placed low in order to get in the THIN END OF THE WEDGE. There was very grave doubt in the most sanguine mind whether even £ 100,000 would be sufficient. It was perfectly in- adequate for the purpose it was intended to achieve. The Council's best policy would be to have nothing at all to do with the Bill. Ald. S. Perks expressed himself as strongly in favour of the resolution pro- posed by Mr. Frank Jones. He thought it was the proper way to meet the difficulty. The amendment appeared to him to be leav- ing open the door, and there was a possibi- lity of reviving the present Bill He did not think anyone was anxious to kill the idea of improving the river Dee if it could be done in a practical form, but before they pledged themselves to anything they ought to have the financial air clear; at present it was in a state of total obscurity. It would be most unwise for the Council to pledge themselves in any way to carry out the pre- sent scheme. The resolution would not tie their hands. They could start de novo next year. They could also make clear the whole financial position before they pledged them- selves to any particular action. Sir Wyndham Hanmer said he strongly supported the resolution. Dr. J. Humphry Williams said that Rhyl —he nearly said the Rhyl gang-had made up their mind that they were not going to put a farthing into the scheme. Aid. Ellis: We have got our own river to look after. Dr. Williams said the Rhyl gang admit- ted that they did not want to pay a farthing in favour of the development of the river. Was there not a method by means of which Rhyl could be excluded, so that they might get their help—with their voice if not their pocket—in developing the river? He was sorry that Col. Philips said that it was not a honest scheme, and wanted them to be- lieve that they had been misled. He could not believe that of any of them; he be- lieved they had been trying to do their very best. He had got enough faith in the public men of the county. He was not go- ing to say that all the brains were on the confines of the county. They had got as good brains at Flint (laughter). The Chairman said that for the informa- tion of Dr. William^, as well as the County Council generally, hn might state that Rhyl had a. petition to be excluded from the scheme, but they had withdrawn their op- position now. "HOPELESS FROM THE BEGINNING." Ald. J. H. Warburton Lee said the feel- ing in the detached part of Flintshire was strong that whoever should pay for that scheme, it ought not to come on them. He understood the feeling at Rhyl was very similar, and also that Mold took a some- what similar view. If they excluded a number of districts, the districts remaining would have to bear a very heavy rate. Let the persons who had been responsible for the present scheme bring up a feasible pro- ject if they could. He did not see why the Council should bear the onus of bringing up a scheme again. The scheme was hope- less from the beginning. Did anyone ever seriously think that £ 75,000 was going to suffice? The previous scheme was estima- ted to cost £ 400,000. Ald. Warburton-Lee concluded by drawing attention to the "scathing criticisms" on the scheme at the Chester Town Council. Mr. Elford H. Roberts: What about "Sleepy Chester?" Aid. J. W. M. Evans, who supported the amendment, said that Mr. Frank Jones la- boured the point about the £ 10,000. It was fairly well understood by the members where the £ 10,000 was coming from. Mr. Frank Jones: I didn't know and many other members didn't know. It was not fair that some members should know and others not. Aid. Evans said it was surmised by a great many people where that £ 10,000 was to come from. It would be of tremendous benefit to the county if the river could be improved. The county had the grand gift of a river which many counties would be proud of. If the river could be made navi- gable, Flintshire would be the premier county of North Wales. Mr. J. E. Buckley Jones said it was quite true that Rhyl had forma.IV withdrawn its opposition. It was simply because they were told it would incur expense on their part—(laughter),—and they thought that the developments rendered it unlikely that the scheme would go forward. Mr. R. S. Gardiner appealed to tne Coun- cil not to kill the Bill absolutely. If they voted for Mr. Jones' proposition, they would kill it not only for this year but for ever (cries of "No"). THE DEE AS A GREAT HIGHWAY. Ald. W. R. K. Mainwaring said that per- sonally he would like to see the river a great highway, conferring enormous bene- fit to the whole of the coast. He did not think it was opportune to approach a scheme like that when the County Council were animated with their present feelings; when Rhyl and other places wished to be dissociated from the scheme on account of rates; and when other bodies were absolute- ly sick of the scheme in its present form. He asked the Council to dismiss the present scheme, and to say that they had a strong wish that something should be done. If they supported the amendment a great deal more tl e would be wasted. There would be wrai.. L'ng about how the P,,75,000 was to be obtn, d, wholly irrespective of whether £ 75,000 could possibly accomplish what it was supposed to accomplish. Let them start with perfectly clean hands. Mr. J. Philip Jones observed that in face of the changed circumstances he was sure they all agreed that the amendment pro- posed by Mr. Hughes was the best thing that could be done. The present scheme— which was about the fifth-was the only schemt which had been looked at by the Government. The opposition to the scheme seemed to have come from the two extreme ends of the county. Ald. J. H. Ellis: What about Mold? They oppose it. Mr. J. P. Jones proceeded to quote fig- ures as to rateable value, and said the in- dustries of the county paid the greater pro- portion and received absolutely nothing back. Mr. Elford H. Roberts declared that the support for the scheme had always come from the most important parts of the coun- ty. They could classify the county into two parts—one agricultural and the other in- dustrial. Did the Council stand to gain more by playing up to the agricultural inte- rests, or supporting those industries which made for the real benefit and sound estab- lishment of the county? Were they to be under the control of agriculturists, or were they to pay more heed to the expressed wishes of the industrial section ? If they improved the Dee it would make for indus- trial development. They KNEW WHAT RHYL WAS. Rhyl was the dog-in-the-manger of the county. They were absolutely no good to the county. They were in the county and paid rates, and that was all they did. If they were to narrow down the policy of Rhyl it amounted to this: Rhyl was abso- lutely against anything which would make for the good of the county if they were called upon to pay. Ald. J. H. Ellis: If this scheme was well matured and conceived we would support it. Mr. Elford Roberts, continuing, said there was a body of people in the county who were prepared to kill the scheme whe- ther it was a good one or a bad one. Jf they would support the amendment, they could consider the financial aspect of the scheme when it came before the Council again. They could not suffer any injustice by adopting the amendment. Mr. T. J. Reney urged the support of the amendment, and said they could alter the financial aspect of the scheme later. Mr. A. J. Reney, who also supported the amendment, expressed the hope that the scheme was not going to be killed that Cay. With regard to Overton and Rhyl, they were determined to oppose any progress in Flintshire. "Kill the scheme!" was their motto pure and simple. They had such a body of experts on the Council! There was an enormous lot of experts witli regard to navigable channels from Rhyl. If they brought forward a P,400,000 scheme they would shout even louder than now. They would never support any scheme so long as they were asked to contribute rate aid. If the Dee were improved, who could tell what new industries would be established from Mostyn to Chester ? No one could tell what the effect would be. The Council were the owners of the foreshore on both sides of the river. Rhyl's action was petty, mean and contemptible. Chester people had lived for a long time on the industries of Flintshire and Denbighshire, but when they were called upon to support that scheme they absolutely refused to do so. He thought the best thing to be done was for the people of Flintshire to boycott Chester altogether. Chester had had too much to say in times past as"to what should be done to the river-Dee. He did not know why the meetings of the Conservancy Board were held at Chester. They ought to be held at Connah's Quay. They ought to take the thing from Chester altogether. They were a lot of noodles (laughter). He had heard that Chester Corporation were somewhat anxious to reconsider their posi- tion in the matter. It was high time they had their eyes opened. Mr. Frank Jones, replying, said he did not think it was fair that some members should know particulars about the financial aspect of the scheme which other members did not know. He believed in a reasonable scheme for the development of the Dee. The Council were quite prepared to consid- er, and also to support, a well-thought-out scheme. The amendment was then put to the vote, twenty-two members supporting it and nine- teen voting against. The amendment was afterwards put as a substantive motion and carried.