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HOLYWELL.

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HOLYWELL. THE URBAN COUNCIL AND ST. WINEFRIDE'S WELL. A TEMPTING OFFER At the meeting of the Urban Council on Monday last, Dr James Williams presiding, it was reported by the Well Committee, that Mr H. A. Cope, acting for Mr Atherton, of JPrescot and Liverpool, applied for leave to abstract water on certain conditions from St. Winefride's Well The question was adjourned for consideration by the Committee of the whole Council after the ordinaiy business of the Council, Mr Carman took exception to tie application being taken in committee. From what he had heard outside, he believed it would be more satisfactory to the ratepayers to have the question brought publicly before the Council and dis- cussed. It was decided to discuss the applica- tion in open Council, and Mr Cope was sent for. Mr H. A. Cope, said his application waa on behalf of a gentleman named Atherton, of Presoot and Liverpool, to the members of the Urban Council for license to take water from St. Winofride's Well for bottling purposes. The intention was to establish bottling works some- were below the Well, probably as near the rail- way as possible, and to form a strong company for the purpose of bottling the water to sell it as table water and for drinking purposes. Mr Atherton had no intention to prevent the present use of the Well by the Catholic body except so far as may be absolutely necessary to maintain the purity of the supply, It wpuli never do for the idea to get into the public mind that the water used for drinking purposes was at all liable to contamination. The proposal of Mr Atherton, with regard to the rent is, to pay the Council, in advance, tloo a year for the first year, jMOO for the second year, with increases of X,50 a year, until the maximum of £ 500 a year was reached. The license would be terminable by Mr Atherton on twelve months' notice, provided he found it did not answer as a paying concern. The Council would have power to revoke the license on non- payment of rent or non-compliance with any of the heads of agreement which would of course be entered into. Mr Atherton wanted the right to use the existing line of pipes from the spring so far as the same can be used. Possibly-they may be out of order, but so far as they were servicable he dosired to use them. With regard to the point as to possible contamination of the water, Mr Atherton asked that no bathing took place in the lidy's well, and he would under- take to protect the lady's well at his own expense. Mr Lambert: That is the most important part of the Well from the Catholic standpoint. Mr Cope: He very generously, I think, offers to pay the costs of the Council. The terms will be subject to formal agreement between him and yourselves if you grant it him. Continuing Mr Cope eaid, he wrote the result of the first interview with the Council to Mr Atherton, and in reply he received a letter from his solicitor in London, and which stated "It is Mr Atherton's intention, if hid proposal is accepted, to at once form a strong company, with sufficient capital to fully work the concern. Parr's Bank, Ltd would answer satisfactorily any inquiries as to position or ability to carry the matter through." The letter further stated that Mr Atherton was willing to agree to take water only from 6 p.m, on Saturday, to 6 a.m. on Monday, provided that not more than one-eighth of the flow can be taken at any time if specially necessary, The water abstracted would have no appreciable effeot on the overflow. He was also prepared, if required, to take the tenancy of the baths at an additional rental of £ 125. Mr Bryan: He does not want to interfere with the present tenancy, but he offers to take the baths at £ 125. Mr Cope: He expressly and definitely says he does not want to interfere with the present tenancy, except so far as if he takes the water, it must be pure. Mr Bryan: The Well Committee have been down to the Well, and they consider that the round well should be protected. Supposing that Fr. Beauolerk declines to take the Well, if this application is granted ? Mr Cope: Mr Atherton says, he would, if required, be willing to take the tenanoy of the baths at the additional rental of X126 per annum. Mr Lambert: It is a positive fact, if the lady's well is taken away from the present tenant, in all probability it will be given up at once. The lady's well is the most important of any part of the Well, next to the shrine itself. The great question is would the rental of the Well do the same amount of good to the town as the present rental and the number of visitors during the season ? As the lady's well is part and parcel of the shrine, if that is interfered with we shall lose the Catholic interest altogether at the Well. Mr Bennett: The question is a very simple one. If we think Mr Atherton asks too much, perhaps he would be satisfied with the round well, provided the lady's well was properly fenced off. Mr Cope: I take it Mr Atherton's reason to fence off the lady's well, is on account of the purity of the water, The Chairman. Supposing it was shewn to Mr Atherton that the well can be fenced off Without including the lady's well ? Mr Cope: I take it he would; if you can prove to him that bathing in the lady's well would not by any possible chance contaminate the spring. Mr Hague: As to the use of the well for water supply, it is a question whether we are right at present in allowing bathing under the present formation of the bath. Mr Foulkes: The water does not flow from the lady's well to the spring. Mr Hague: Yes, it does for we have seen it. Dr. Jones: It is the scum that floats on the surface of the water, and gradually works round into the octogan basin of the spring. The oause of the floating scum is the opening between the two wells, the result being a backwash of the water. Mr Lambert: Would the fenoing off mean the prevention of the holding of the processions round the well ? Mr Bennett: My idea is that the fencing only applies to the protection of the water, not the enclosing of the chapel. Mr J. E. Jones: If there is a danger of Fr. Beauclerk giving the Well up. we have an offer of £ 125 from Mr Atherton. It will be no loss to the town. Mr J. Ll. Williams: I don't know whether the Council has the right to divert the water. We should consider that question first, and the technical details afterwards. I am prepared to say we have no right whatever. The Chairman: The Well is the property of this Council, any riparian owners below the Well are entitled to the overflow. Mr Williams Yes undiverted. Mr Bryan: It would be quite as well to consult the riparian owners on the stream. This appears to me to be a golden egg, and I should not like to see it go. Mr Williams I asked that inquiries be made as to the rights of the Council. The Clerk I have made inquiries and searched the old minute books of the Local Board, but can find no mention, not even of the right of the Water Works Co. to put in the pipe. Mr Williams: They had that right by Act of Parliament. Mr Waterhouse said they must look at the question legally, and from a oommonsense point of view. It was quite possible that the riparian owners may come upon Mr Atherton for damages, and an injunction for diuerting the stream to which they have a right. They (the manufacturers) on the stream would look after their rights, and the Council should be interested on their own behalf. Suppose Mr Atherton was prosecuted, and he in turn prosecuted the Council, and claimed compensa- tion under an agreement to do certain things to which the Council had no right ? If they let the Well they should do so under a saving clause that Mr Atherton must not imagine that the Council had more power than they had subjest to the rights of the stream owners. The Chairman: Perhaps Mr Atherton could five an idea of the quantity of water required ? upposing we had a water supply it would most certainly be abstracted from the Well. It would never do for us to barter away our privilege. The well is the only phce we fall back upon for water supply, and whenever it is taken up the Well will be the source of supply for the town. It would be rather awkward if it oame to be found that the quantity of water had been re- duced and the well was useless to the public as a water supply. Mr Lambert: I am slightly under the im- pression that Sir Pyera Mostyn would be in- terested in the matter, Mr Williams said he represented no one in the matter; he simply threw out suggestions as to the right of the Council to use the water for other than domestio purposes, He contended that the Council had not the right to use the water for watering the publio streets. Mr J. E. Jones: What right has the present lessee to send the water away in bottles ? Mr Williams said he was in favour of the scheme but not to advance it to the detriment of existing individual rights. Mr Bryan said it was a matter of much interest, and would be a point on which to test the feeling of the ratepayers generally. They were all very anxious to represent the publio and it would be well to obtain the feeling of the town whether they were prepared to accept the golden egg or not. Let it be an "election ory" and if members were returned in favour of it, then the scheme could proceed. Mr Richards: I don't believe in "election cries." Members should come in on their merits. Outside they will do anything, but when they get inside they do nothing. Mr Lambert: I quite endorse that. Election cries were for low rates, and we are reaping the results. Mr Williams: I came here without a cry. I am ready to stand by what I say. I propose that the matter be adjourned until we have definite information as to the rights of Father Beauolerk, the manufacturers on the stream and the Counoil. Mr Lambert: I second that proposition. The Chairman: I have always considered that the Well belongs to the Holywell people, and that they have the oontrol whether for any speoifio purpose or not. I don't know but that before we sell the house we should know and decide that we have got the house to sell. How far back into ancient history we shall have to go, is a question, in order to ascertain our rights. The Clerk: The matter was once in Chancery, and the Lord Chancllor then held that the Well was common for the publio of Holywell and no one had any individual rights' The Chairman: If they have a right they would be prepared with it. The Clerk: Beading that judgment, I should say so. Mr Lambert said they had heard a good deal about the golden egg, but there was no moral certainty that they should have £600 a year at the end of a few years. He thought it was necessary to be very decided before they gave any permission on a matter of such importance. The Chairman: Is Mr Atherton anxious to have it pushed forward ? Mr Cope: I do not fancy he wants the matter to hang on, for he thanks me for the prompt attention I gave the matter. The Chairman There are a few difficulties. Mr Cope: I see that perfectly well, and no one can appreciate the importance of the matter to the town than I do myself. I do not expect a definite answer to-day. There are various matters and points to go into, but if you tell me you will not entertain the application, then the matter is at an end. I venture, however, to think you will not go that fat. It is a matter of importance, and the most generous offer I have ever heard of with regard to the town of Holywell. Mr Williams asked whether Mr Atherton would be prepared to take a lease under the license, and whether he will pay money in advance P Mr Cope: Yes, he is not prepared to form a company on an annual tenanoy. Naturally he would ask for a long lease and be prepared to pay the rent in advanoe. Mr Williams: Would he take it on a lease for, say, seven years ? Mr Cope: I take it Mr Atherton in a aana man. 1 don't suppose he would. Mr Williams: I don't suggest that he is not sane, but would he take the license and pay seven years' rent in advance ? Mr Oope: No sane man would. Mr Williams Suppose we pay four per oent. interest on it, would he pay it then ? Mr Oope: As a business man he would want more than that. No business man would be content with that interest any more than you would yourself, and as a business man you know that. There is no reason in that. I take it this gentleman is behaving in a generous manner when he offers you rent in advance. The Chairman: Could you afford any idea of the quantity of water required to be abstracted ? M.r Oope I understand there is already a nine- inch pipe laid into the Well and running for some distance down towards Greenfield. The proposal is to attach a four-inch pipe to the end of that service and to abstract water from six p.m. on Saturday, to 6 a.m.on Monday, subjeot to his being permitted to take not more than one-eighth of the flow at any other time if specially necessary. There need not be the least fear that the quantity of water abstracted for bottling purposes would have any appreciable effect on the now of the stream. Mr Bryan said he was prepared to move that the Council is prepared to entertain the applica- tion, but that certain difficulties being in the way and parties to be consulted, the Council cannot give a decided answer at present, and ask that Mr Atherton arrange to meet the Council personally in regard to the matter. Mr J. E. Jones seconded the proposition. Mr Hague suggested that a day be named. The fault of Holywell in such matters was pro- crastination. When they got a good offer they should consider it at once. Mr. Williams I agree with what I may call Mr Bryan's amendment to my proposition which is only varied by asking Mr Atherton to attend. Mr Lambert: And I seconded it. Mr Joseph Jones: Why have Mr Atherton ? A Member: To bring his money with him (laughter). Mr Cope: If there are any special questions to put to Mr Atherton he will be prepared to reply to them. It was suggested to adjourn the matter for a week if convenint to the parties concerned. The Chairman Can you find any information upon the rights to the water ? The Clerk: If you have doubt, I can take counsel's opinion as to the rights of the riparian owners, and how far you have the right to the Well water. 0 Mr Bryan: If counsel's opinion should be that we cannot abstract water, for sale, then Fr. Beauclerk would be stopped (laughter). Mr Lambert: That question may arise again. The Chairman I do not know what oounsel's opinion would be worth. They often leave ua in greater doubt than we were before. Mr Williams: If those who have an interest and a right in the stream were consulted in the matterno doubt they would be a help to Holy- well, but people do not like to be overlooked and they may come down on you rather awkwardly. Mr J. Jones: I do not see why we should study them. Mr Williams: They will study you. Mr J. Jones We are masters of the situation. Mr Williams: Then you will find you are not, when the overflow is found diminished by the abstraation of the water. Mr Jones: I am talking about the spring, not the overflow they are only entitled to what overflows into the stream. Mr Cope I dont want to tread on anyone's toes, and we bava not quite arrived at the point to which Mr Williams alludes. This matter requires con- sideration, and Mr Atherton has no intention of alighting the stream owners, as they are termed. The easiest way would be for us to approaoh you gentlemen, and say on a certain date the tenanoy of the Well terminates. Let ns know when yoa advertise it again, and we might oome and take the Well. But there is no wish t) interfere with the Oatholio body except so far as maintaining the purity of the spring, if the concession is granted, is oonoerned. I should be very sorry if anything I have said on behalf of Mr Atherton should stir up any sort of strife between this Council and the mill owners on the stream. After some further discussion it was suggested that the Olerk might intimate to the mill owners that the Council purpose considering a certain matter and asking them had they any objection. The proposition adjourning the consideration of the matter for the attendance of Mr Atberton and his solicitor, was ultimately oarried. The Chairman Does that suit you? Mr Cope Yes. 1 will immediately communioate with my client. I dont know whether I may be allowed to throw out the suggestion that the Council be prepared to say yes or no to the application when we meet again. Mr Hague suggested that all information be obtained in the meantime. Mr Bryan advocated the appointment of a deputa- tion to Fr. Beauolerk to point oat that the proposal would not interfere with his tenancy, and that the deputation interview the mill owners on the stream. Mr Jos. Jones: If we are going with the stream we shall never come back here. We have no right to consult any other individual except Fr. Beauolerk. Dr. Jones What do we lose by it ? Mr Jones: It does not matter what we lose we have no right. Mr Lambert: That is a matter of opinion. Mr Jones: Yes, that is my opinion, and not anyone else's. Mt Bennett seconded Mr Bryan. Mr Hague propose! an amendment that no deputation be appointed, but that all proceedings should proceed offioially through the Clerk. Mr Williams seoonded tha amendment, which was oarried. Mr Jones I object to that, we have no right to do it (laughter). A Member: Thera is no need for the deputation to go. Mr Jones: You aoknowledge what you have no right to acknowledge. Mr Williams: Don't think we are giving onr. selves away. Mr Jones: I think we are giving ourselves away. The Chairman It will be an act of eourtesy on the part of the Council in making the communication Mr Williams: The Clerk, I presume, will oom- municate with the millowuers that much and such a thing will be considered on such a date, and leave it to them. The Chairman That will be more conrtosy to them. Mr Cope raising the question of the lady's well Dr Jones said it could be easily remedied without having it fenced in with the spring. Mr Lambert said he was perfeotly satisfied that if the lady's well was taken away from the bathing part of the well they might make up their minds that it would oloss the matter as regards the present tenancy. To settle the point as to the necesisity or otherwise of closing the lady's well the Oonnoil agreed to meet at two o'clock to inspect the well, which was ao. aordingly done, and the matter was adjourned.

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