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The North Wales Electric Power Bill. HL.\RL\(. IX THK IIOrSK OF LORDS. THE CASK FOR RHYL AND ST. ASAPH. The consideration by a Select Committee cf th House of Lords, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh presiding, of the North Wales Electric Power Bill concluded on Friday. Counsel for the petitioners were Mr. Claude Baggallay, K.C., Mr. Vesey Knox. and Mr. Gully. The follow. ing petitioned against the Bill:—The Carnarvon Town Council, the Carnarvonshire County Council, the Flintshire County Council, incor- porating Rhyl, St. Asaph, Prestatyn, and Over- ton the Llandudno Crban District Council, the Anglesey County Council, the Beaumaris Town Council, Conway Town Council, Conway and Colwyn Bay Joint Water Supply Board, ana the Penmaenmawr Urban District Council. Counsel for the Flintshire Countv Council were Mr. J. D. Fitzgerald, K.C., and Mr. Ralph Bankes (instructed by Messrs. Bromley, Jones, and Co. i. Among the witnesses present were M essrs. W. Elwy Williams, J.P., R. Llewelyn Jones, John Frimston, Arthur Rowlands, and E. H. Wright, Rhyl. The principal object of the bill is to authorise the use of the waters of Liyn Llydaw, on the eastern slopes of Snowdon, for generating electricity. The promoters pro- posed to supply the electrical energy so obtained f JV traction on light railways and as power in the quarries and mines of the district, as well as to authorise undertakers for lighting and other purposes. The area of supply is the counties of Carnarvon, I-erioneth, and Anglesey, and parts of Flintshire and Denbig-shire. Mr. Baggallay, for the promoters, explained that it was proposed to construct a dam which would raise the waters of Llyn Llvdaw some 20 feet, thus giving a fall of 1,150 feet within a distance of a quarter of a mile of a generating- s:3.tion, and a line of pipes connecting it with the dam. All round the generating station were possible customers in the quarries and mines, and there was already evidence of a large demand for the power which the promoters would supply. It was proposed to transfer to the company the electricity powers of the Port. madoc Railway Company, and the two under- takings would be equal to about 12,000 horse power. About 1.000 horse power of this would be utilised to electrify the railway authorised in the Act of 1901, and 11,000 horse power would be available for quarries and other pur- poses. The promoters hoped to be able to supply energy at ld. per unit. The estimated cost of the works at Snowdon was £86,500, and this would be provided out of the proposed capital of £170,000, the balance being available for the construction of railwavs. The com- pany would own all the shares in the Portmadoc Railway and the Narrow-gauge Railway, and it was proposed to extend these lines to Carnar- von on the one side and Bettws-y-Coed on the other. The promoters would supply electricity for these railways, and they would be worked by the Portmadoc Companv. The cost of the acquisition of the undertaking in the Conway valley would be £40,000 Objection was taken by several urban authorities to the proposal to convey power by means of overhead wires to any part of this area. The usual provision in this respect only allows power to be conveyed overhead in rural districts, but Mr. Baggallay urged that the greater part of the area is rural, and that the power cannot be carried at the cheap rate contemplated, ld. per unit, unless it is carried overhead everywhere. The local authorities who had, or contemplated obtaining, an electric lighting order, it shall have an abso- lute veto in regard to the supply bv the Company within their area. The promoters, Mr. Baggallay said, regard such a restriction as unreasonable. If the urban authority cannot within a reason- able time and at a reasonable price give a sup- ply, then the promoters should not be preven- ted from giving it. The way in which this clause would work was that prima facie they could not supply in the urban district authority's area if the urban district authority are ready and willing to give a supply within a reasonable time and at a reasonable price to the trader. If the authority were not ready and willing to supply electrical energy to the trader on the terms which the Board of Trade thought reason- able .which would probably be the terms upon which the Coy. were ready to supply), then the Board of Trade could say that that Company may come in and supply the trader. The trader was not to be hampered because the local authority was backward in being able to give him as good a supply as he could obtain from outsid.e, Mr. J. E. Rawlins, chairman of the Com- pany, gave evidence in support of the Bill. To Mr. Lloyd, K.C. (who appeared for Colwyn Bay and Conway), [he witness said the proposed capital was £270,000. The amount subscribed was £170,000, of which 167,500 was under- written, the balance of £2,500 being directors' qualifications. Then there was no response to vour prospec- tus ? You got nothing at all ?—Well, we did not expect much (laughter). If in seaside re- sorts like Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, and Llandudno power was not wanted the Company would not go there. Cross-examined by Mr. Ralph Bankes May I take it you do not seek powers in any part of the county of Flint outside the red circle, or whatever you call it—that big red line.—Yes, certainly. Then am I right in saying I may leave out the Rural District of Overton and not trouble about it ? Your Lordships will see in Clause 8 of the Bill it says the I'rban Districts of .Prestatyn and Rhyl and the Rural Districts of Overton and St. Asaph." Overton is miles out of the red line— Mr. Yesey Knox We will give that under- taking. Mr. Ralph Bankes Then Overton is re- leased, at all events. Then may I take it also with regard to the remaining places—Rhyl, Prestatyn, and St. Asaph ? May I take it that Prestatyn is also not included in this red circle ? Perhaps you do not know where Prestatyn is, do you ?—No, I do not know where it is. Is it not rather important to know where a place is before you propose to put it into an area, surely! fs it in this area at all? As a matter of fact it ts not, is it —No. Will you give up Prestatyn ?—I should say not. Mr. Ralph Bankes My Lord, as a matter of fact, Prestatyn is nearer Chester—your Lordship knows the main line of the Chester and Holy- head—I'restatvn is a station nearer Chester than Rhyl. The Chairman Am I to take it that there is no intention to keep anything in the Bill thac is outside the limits of the cartoon ? Mr. Yesey Knox Mr. Ralph Bankes: May I get rid of Pres- tatyn ? Mr. Yesey Knox Certainly, I will that undertaking. Mr. Ralph Bankes: Now there remain Rhyl and St. Asaph. (To the witness.; St. Asaph is an extremely pleasant but utterb- unbusiness- like cathedral town, is it not.—-Ye- There is not a human being there who could be called a manufacturer by an" possible pre- text, is there ?—No. What is the use of going to a quiet cathedral i )\ï1 St. Asaph and putting up overhead wires and breaking up the roads when there is not a single manufacturer there ?—I think the understanding is that we have not the least intention of going anywhere— Never mind the 'understanding." What is the use of giving you power to put up overhead wires and break up the quiet streets of St. Asaph when there is not a human being there but clergy and people of that peaceful charac- ter simply that you cannot exclude all these little places". It is within the area. How many miles is it from the central station at Beddselert to St. Asaph, do you think ?—I could not say off hand. ■May I safely say it is 30 or 40 .J—Yes. So much for St. Asaph. Now the next and last place is Rhyl. Rhyl is a health resort, is it no: ?—Yes. Is there a single human being there who could be described as a manufacturer of any size ?— I do not know I do not think so. Has anyone at Rhyl asked vou to come there ? —No. Then why on earth did you want just to take these two particular places and go there to break up the roads and take your wires there and tear up the streets when there is not a single human being there who want the powers ? St. Asaph i- entirely out of your district as a mat- ter of fact. Come now, are not you willing to give them up too, as there is not a human being there who can want the electric power, and so get rid of us altogether ?—I do not think we can do that, inasmuch as we want to include everything within the red line. It is, of course, obvious, if these places are so small and there 1"; not business enough to justify it. the streets ¡ would not be torn up or the inhabitants bothered with 'the wires; I can assure you of that. Is it not the fact that you really want to take out a very large line of country and trust to Providence whether you can do any business there or whether you cannot, is not that so ?— I think we wish to include everything in tha-t area. Would not that properly desofibe this Bill, that you want to take out as much as you possibly can and trust to Providence whether you can do any business here or not ? If you say that that is so. I will sit down.—I. do not know whether that is the right way to put it. That is rather an awkward way of putting vour scheme, is it not ?—\es. But is is quite correct, is it not.—We want power to sell, and we want power to sell in a certain district and I think we should have the right to include every point within that district where there is likely to be a chance to sell electricity for power. And suppose the chance is only a very re- mote one, do not you think the local authority ought to have some voice in the matter ? May I put it to you in this way before I sit down There are three people who are concerned in these matters, are there not—first of all the manufacturer ?—Yes. Secondly yourself (that is very important), and thirdly the local authority ■—Yes. In the case of Rhyl and St. Asaoh there are no manufacturers there, so I put them aside there is, therefore, sofely yourselves and the local authority which do you think the Com- mittee ought to consider—yourselves or the local authorities ?—Well, I suppose the local authorities should certainly be entitled— To consideration ?—To consideration. What higher consideration can you put for ward for yourselves than for the local authority, except some off-chance of making some money ? —I think there is no doubt the local authorities will be— Will be considered ?—Will be protected. Protected—certainly ?—In the same way as in other Bills of a similar kind. Are you willing to bind yourselves not to go to St. Asaph or Rhyl, or to give them a veto until some manufacturers do arise there ? If you will do that I will sit down. If you will give a veto until some manufacturers do arise we will be content are you willing to do that ? —No, we are not. Then may I take it that you think yourselves more important than the local authority ?—\ou see if we begin with two small places we would have to do the whole thing. I do not mind in the least about other small places it is only these two—on the very edge of the district—that I represent ?—I am simply putting it from our point of view. Then am I right in saying that your point of view is that your remote chance of business is more important than the local authority ?—I think you are making a mountain of a mole- hill. I think we have not the very least in- tention of doing anything to injure your local authority. Have you not the very least intention 01 coming ?—We have not the very least of doing anything to injure your local author- ity. All we wish to do is to sell the power, and I think that all the small towns of North Wales ought to be only too glad, if there is a chance of getting a supply of power cheaply. It is inconceivable to me that you should raise anv objection at all. Vou have agreed with me that there are no manufactures in these places ?—\ou are holding us up as if we were a kind of evil spirit which is going to invade quiet towns, whereas really I think we ought to be regarded as the very reverse. I will not contradict you, though I would not put it so high myself. All I ask you is this I wish to get an answer one way or the other Assuming that there are no manufacturers or manufactures in those places, the two interests are yourselves and the local authorities am I light in saying that you consider your small chance of getting any business, if a manufac- turer does start up, ought to override the wishes of the local authority ? Do you think that ? —I think that is a question for the House to decide. So do I. Several other witnesses were subsequently called. COUNSEL'S ADDRESS FOR RHYL. Mr. J. D. Fitzgerald said he only proposed to address the Committee very shortly indeed for the County Council of Flint, the Urban District of Rhyl, and the Rural District of St. Asaph. He represented those three parties they all objected to being included in this area. The County Council of Flintshire did not desire the portion of their county to be .included the l'rban District of Rhyl does not desire to be included, and the Rural District of St. Asaph equally objected to be included and it was only necessary to see where these places are to see that cutting them out would not interfere with the usefulness of the Bill at all, assuming it to be a useful Bill which the Committee would pass with regard to some other portion of the area. He was not going to discuss at all the general questions that had been under discussion. He was not going into any ques- t:on of finance, whether this Company was likely to raise a million of money or not. He really had nothing to do with that. He was not going to discuss the central power station at Llyn Llydaw, or whether what looked like a very fine area round it may not be a very ex- cellent area for a power Bill he had nothing to do with that at all. The only question he was going to discuss, and the real matt T he asked for their decision was this, whether any substantial reason had been given why ti.ey should override the views of the three local authorities whom he represented, and include their areas within the Bill. They all objected very strongly, and the curious thing was that no one called for the promoters had been abl- to give any satisfactory reason why these pieces of Flintshire were included. The Com- mittee would no doubt have in recollection that in the Bill they included two other places in Flintshire—Prestatyn and a place called Over- ton, which is not even shown on the cartoon— it was a long way off it and when the first witness was examined he did not even know that those places were in the Bill and he could not give any satisfactory reason how they had got in there he said it must have been a mis- take. and accordingly they were struck out. Now, it seemed to him if that was a mis- take it was equally a mistake with regard to Rhyl and St. Asaph; and as far as he could make out what appeared to have taken place was this, that some gentleman took an Ord- nance Survey map and marked out where he throught was a good line with a blue pencil, and that area became the area in the Bill but any reason for including those particular places at that north-west corner had never been given. No witness had been called from that district at all to support the Bill and it would be a somewhat unusual thing to include a consider- able area out of a county in a Bill against the wishes of the local authorities when no single person from the district was called to say that he was a possible customer and desired to have an opportunity of taking power from this Com- pany and it would be still more extraordinary in the present case when it was practically ad- mitted that there were no customers there. The first witness, Mr. Rawlins (who, he understood, was the Chairman of the Company), was cross- examined on this point by Mr. Bankes, and this question was put to him: 'St. Asaph 's an extremely pleasant but utterly unbusiness- like town, is it not ?—\es.—There is not a human being there who could be called a manu- facturer by any possible pretext, is there i—No.' Now, the rural district of St. Asaph, which ex- tends round St. Asaph, includes some 24,000 acres. He was going to add that the rural district of St. Asaph which extends round the town—they could hardly call it the town 01 St. Asaph, except that it had a cathedral—was a purely rural district; and tfftre was not a suggestion that within that large rural district of 24,000 acres there was a possible customer in existence at the present day. Then his friend, having cross-examined as to St. Asaph, went on with regard to Rhyl—; So much for St. Asaph. Now the next and last place is Rhyi. Rhyl is a health resort, is it not ?—Yes.—is there a single human being there who could be described as a manufacturer of any size ?—I do not know; I do not think so." 'Has any- one at Rhyl asked you to come there ?—No.' Now, when Mr. Harper, the engineer of the Company, was in the witness-box, he put ques- tions to him somewhat on the same basis. It was: ?s, I am speaking of St. Asaph. I wanted to know why you included the Rural District of St. Asaph in your area ?—Because it was in the part of North Wales we proposed to cover.—That is giving no reason; that is only telling me it is on the map ?—There was no particular reason for including it.—There is no quarry there, is there ?—Not that I am aware of.—It is a purely rural district ?—Yes, I have never been there.' The engineer of the scheme, who was in part responsible, at any. rate, for laying out the area, admitted that he had never been there, and that he could not give any particular reason for including it: and he had endeavoured to find out, in the course of the discussion, whether any witness could supply a reason, and, with one exception, no reason had been uggested. He discussed very shortly what the reason suggested was. It was said that that portion of Flintshire had not been included in the power Bill of last year, which took in the greater part of Flintshire, and that, therefore, it was desirable that it should be included in that Bill; and it was also said that it was desirable that the two districts should march together. Well, Sir Douglas Fox, like a good many of the other witnesses who bad been called in the case, had not made up the geography of the district. The district taken in last year began south of Mold, which was the county town of Flintshire, and goes up to Flint and Holywell. Xo, the promoters were proposing to take in the whole of Denbighshire, which marched with Flintshire. They pro- posed to take in the whole of Denbigh. Mr. Claude Baggallay: Xo, not the whole; all of Denbighshire which is not in the north- western district. Mr. F itzgerald Yerv well. That marches with the district. Continuing, he said he was told that all the district which marches with Flintshire in the north-western district of Den- bighshire was not objecting and, therefore, a3 far as the question of marching was concerned, if it is only what Sir Douglas Fox said, one company getting a supply from: another—if that was legal—he did not stop to inquire about that—possibly it was if that was all, if the Committee gave them Denbighshire (and Den. bighshire was not objecting) they will march with the north-western district, and be able to '.exchange current, the one company Vith the other, supposing that was desirable but why that was a reason for taking in the part of Flintshire which was left out last year and does not want to be taken in. and in which no one could suggest there was in existence at the pre- sent moment a possible customer, he really could not See. He thought they would na- turally draw the inference that when the North Western Electricity Company had their Bill before Parliament last year, and when they were obtaining authority, as they did, to erect a power station in Flintshire itself (which pow- er station would be very much nearer to the northern portion of Flintshire—Rhyl and St. Asaph—that the central station which was pro- posed on Llyn Llydaw) when they were in Par- liament last year, the reason why they did not include that north-western corner of Flintshire in their area was because there was no customer there, and there was no use taking an area where there was no one to suoplv because they cannot supply people without laying down mains or putting overhead mains, and those mains were expensive and surely, if in the distant future the time should arise when Rhvl should cease to be the bathing place-the sea- side resort—which it was at present, and on the ruins of the present lodging-houses manu- factories should arise and that there should be a demand for power in that district, the natural and obvious way of meeting that demand would be to extend the area of the North Western Company, which already had the rest of Flint- shire, and who obviously could give a supply more conveniently, because they were so much closer. One of the great expenses- in giving a supply was the laying of mains. Now, the dIsance to get from this central power station which was proposed- in the Bill to Rhyl was given as something like 40 miles-35 to 40 miles, as one of the witnesses had said and suppos- ing that district was included in the area, do they suppose for a moment that this. Company would lay' mains to a district where they ad. mitted there was not a possible customer ? No they would do nothing of the sort; it would be merely throwing their money away. It may be desirable for them to have a main down the ( on way valley he did not know whether it was so—whether the customers shown there were sufficient or not—to take a main from Llanrwst down in the direction of Conway. The Committee saw from Conway to Rhyl was a very considerable distance, and the only cus. tomer suggested on the route was that one place marked with the word Line near Llanddulas. "V\ ell, they were not going to lay a main for that purpose, and they were certainly not going to lay a main—or construct an overhead main should they be allowed to do so—to St. Asaph, where there was no customer at all, or to Rhyl, where there was no customer at all and there was very great objection to giving Parliament- ary powers-statutory powers—over an area which were not intended to be used. No one could foresee what the future might be and if they gave a company statutory- powers over that area they were always in the position of being able to oppose any extension of electric lighting or electric power systems in their area and they have had experience of that witnin the present session and in the last two or three êssions in this way all these power compan- ies come and ask for a large area, and they generally base their case upon the fact that they will be able to give a supply cheaper than the existing municipalities or companies, or who- ever are in existence there, and they generally put it that the trader ought to have'free trade, that there ought to be no monopoly, that they were not afraid of competition, and that they could supply much cheaper than anyone else, and that unless they did so they would not get c"s*om' and so forth but the moment they have got their district into Parliament then they always appear to oppose anyone else who proposes to supply electricity in that district. lie had a case only a few days ago in' another I ommittee, it was in Yorkshire—a tramway B 11 iiere and they found the Yorkshire Power Company, which got powers two or three years ago, objecting to one tramway company supply- ing another. That was the kind of position these power companies take up the moment they get their powers and he said that it was very undesirable for that reason, amongst others, to grant powers in a district where there were no customers who want them or were likely to want them, and where they would not in the natural course of things, from purely commer- cial reasons, extend their works simply because there was none to supply. As far as the urban district of Rhyl was concerned, the urban dis. trict has got its electric lighting installation at present, which supplied electric light to anyone who wanted it they had spent a considerable sum of money upon it, but neverth less, if there were manufactories or persons who wan. ted power, and evidence of that sort had been forthcoming, there would have been a case to consider, whether this power company might not be admitted on competition 'terms. That was a matter that was always considered in these cases. But here there was no evidence of that kind on the contrary, there was a dis- tinct admission from the witnesses of the pro- moters that they knew of none—no single cus- tomer in existence at the present time—and the only thing they could make was a vague sug- gestion, such as was made by Mr. Ferranti, that someone may come into existence there in the future. Now, in these circumstances, he would ask their lordsftiips if they should pass this Bill not to include in it those two districts in Flintshire agcfinst the wishes of all the people there, and in respect of which districts no single witness had been called to say that any- one there wanted a power supnly at all. With the rest of the Bill he had nothing to say, and therefore he would say nothing about it. After deliberating, the Committee found the preamble of the Bill proved, and made no concessions on the points raised by any of the local authorities. -010--

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