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--FBESTATYN URBAN DISTRICT…

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FBESTATYN URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL. SPECIAL MEETING. EXTRAORDINARY SCENES—THE CHAIRMAN AND MR. JOHN JONES, SEFTON. — LIVELY PRO- CEEDINGS. A special meeting of the Prestatya Urban District Council was held at the Council Office, Prestatyn, on Monday evening. There were present Mr W- H. Coward. J.P. (chairman), Dr. Griffiths. Rev Thomas Price, Messrs Thos. Hughes. J. E. L. Jones, Ellis Roberts, J. B. Linnell. John Jones, with the Clerk (Mr John and the Surveyor (Mr C. W. Bell). The meeting was called to consider the follow- ing recommendation of the Road Committee: "That the Council's application to the Local Government Board for discretionary power as to width of proposed new streets having been declined we now amend our application to only include Bryneithyn Avenue and Linden Walk as being under 36 feet." The Chairman said he must rule the recommendation of the committee out of order, inasmuch as the resolution of October 31st bad not been rescinded. Until that was doue they could not deal with the recommenda- tion of the committee. He was in hopes that they would be able to deal with the matter. but as the resolution in question had not been rescinded he must rule that they could not discuss the recommendation of the committee. Mr John Jones I rise to a point of order. The Chairman I rule you out of order. Mr John Jones Rule me out of order when I am rising to a point of order ? The Chairman: I rule that we cannot deal with the matter to-night. Mr John Jones Tbpn your ruling is con- trary to all ruies of debate? The Chairman I rule you out of order. We are not going to discuss this thing. Mr John Jones: I wish to ask what you want rescinding ? The Chairman: I have told you. I rule you out of order, and must request you to sit dowB. Mr John Jones: I regret that you should allow personal considerations to interfeie with your public duties. I say publicly that your reason for taking the line you are is simply because a road which you wanted included is not mentioned in this recommendation. Had the committee included your road you would never have raised any objection. 1 think it most unfair that you should rule this out of order The Chairman: I have more than once told Mr Davies and others, that I don't care how soon the bye-laws go through. It was quite immaterial to me what was done with my road. But since you have mentioned it, What about your two roads ? Mr John Jones: I am willing to give six feet for my road. The Chairman: Others are not prepared to do it, so don't be personal. Mr John Jones I am prepared to give it. The Chairman: At the next meeting when it comes before us in regular order you will be free to discuss it. But either have the lot or none Mr John Jones: Keep your temper. The Chairman; The lot or none. Be fair to everybody. Mr John Jones: I wish you to read the resolution which you say wants rescinding. The Chairman I will ask the clerk to read it. The Clerk then read the resolution which was as follows :—"That this Council authorise Mr Mc'Laren to use his influence with the Local Government Board to have the bye-laws so made that the roads already constructed or partly constructed, to remain of the width as they are already laid out as at present, but al! future roads and streets to be of the width 3G feet. New streets intended for the erection of cottages of the annual value of £12, that the width thereof shall be 30 feet at the least. The following are of the width of 34 feet:— Plas Avenue, Clwyd Avenue, Bryneithyn Avenue and the following of the width 30 feet:—Linden Walk, Hafod Road, Jubilee Road. Aber Road, Greenfield Road." Mr John Jones: I wish to ask whether Aber Road hus been made ? The Chairman I don't know where Aber Road is. Mr John Jones: My ^contention is this The Chairman: It shall not be opened here to-night. Mr John Jones: I am not speaking from personal motives. The Chairman (warmly): It is a personal attack on me, and I am not going to allow it to be made. Mr John Jones: Personal motives do not weigh with me, I am here as a representative of the ratepayers,and will do my duty independ- ently of any personal motives. The Chairman And I will do the same. Mr John Jones: You may. The resolution which the clerk has read was simply an ap- plication to the Local Government Board for authority to enable us to debate the questionfas^to adopting these roadsif we thought fit. There is nothing at all in the resolution read by the clerk which commits us to the adoption of these roads. In fact the bye-laws have r r,t yet come up for confirmation before the Coui-Jl until to-night. The reply of the Local Government Board came before the Road and Improvement Committee the other evening, and the committee passed a certain recommendation bearing upon it. I maintain that you have no right to rule the proceedings joi 6 committee out of order, The committee makes certain recommendations, and you have no right to refuse to listen to them. We were duly called together by the clerk, we dealt with the matter and carried a certain resolution. Now you tell us that is out of order. When are we going to have the bye- laws at this rate ? The Chairman As soon as you get into proper form. Mr John Jones: It is already in proper form. I say that there is no necessity to rescind any resolution. The Chairman I say there is. Mr Jones: I say that that resolution is simply a resolution authorising Mr Mc'Laren to see the Local Government Board to agree to certain roads being of certain widths. The reply has now come down and we are free to deal with the matter. The committee did deal with it, and they passed a certain resolution, and I say you are acting unfairly in not allowing the recommendation to come before the Council. The Chairman: I am not going to allow it. Mr John Jones: irom a personal The Chanman No, not from a personal view. Mr J. B. Linnell: I quite uphold the chairman that the resolution must be rescinded before we can adopt the recommendation of the committee. We asked the Local Govern- ment Board to grant us a certain application they do so, and we now decline to avail our- selves of that which they have granted to us. Mr John Jonas What is the use of Mr Linnell talking. He knows perfectly well that he is tied hand and foot he is gagged and dare not vote in contradiction to Mr Mc Laren's order. Mr J. B. Linnell I protest. The Chairman: That is most personal. You are going too far Mr Jones. Mr J. B. Linnellt It is most unfair- I appeal whether I have not at all committee meetings and Council meetings done what I considered was best for Prestatyn as a whole. Mr John Jones: I adhere to what I have said- Rev T. Price: That is too personal a great deal Mr Jones- Mr J. B. Linnell: 1 have been on com- mittees, and I say that in all I have done I have acted disinterestedly. Mr Jcbn Jones; You dare not do so. Mr J. B Linnell: I am no more gagged than you prs. 1 dare say that yo. are gagged by your firm. Mr John Jones: My firm as nothing to do with Prestatyn. Yours has. The Chairman: There is another matter on the agenda and we will go to that. There are workmen who are waiting for work, and the soonec we pass the plans of the Public Hall the better. If they are in accordance with your views will someone propose that they be adopted. Mr John Jones; I ask you again when are the bye-laws to come up for consideration 1 The Chairman: As soon as you rescind the resolution. Mr John Jones: The matter has already been before the committee. The Chairman: Give notice to rescind to- night. Mr John Jones: There is no occasion to do so. The Clerk called us here for a specific object the other evening to deal with the bye- laws. We came here for that purpose we debated the thing in a proper businesslike manner, and a resolution was proposed and carried that a certain thing was to be done. and you actually rule that the resolution of the committee is totally out of order. How are we going to have our bye-laws through if the work of the committee is to be set aside at the will of the chairman 1J The Chairman: You will have them through when you put yourselves in proper order. Mr Jones: How 1 The Chairman: Give notice of motion. When you do that somebody else will have something to say. This is simply obstruction. What we have now to consider are the plans of the Public Hall. Mr John Jones: I move that the recom- mendations of the committee be proceeded with The Chairman: Kindly take your seat the same as other members. Do you think you the place- Mr John Jones I am going to stick up for my rights. The Chairman (warmly): Sit down; who are you more than anybody else? Mr John Jones: Act in a gentlemanly manner and don't loose your temper. The Chairman I am not going to loose my temper. Who are you to dictate to the Council. Mr John Jones: It is you who ar3 dictating not me- We are called here for a certain purpose. The Chairman: The plans of the Public Hall are before you. Mr JohnJJones We were asked to come to a committee meeting the other evening, and I say that it is you who are out of order in not allowing the recommendation of that 'com- mittee to be read. The Chairman: I wont; this committee is out of order. Mr John Jones: Then the clerk has been out of order. The Clerk read Standing Order No. 26, which stated that the orders as to the rescinding of the resolutions shall not apply to resolutioas which are moved by the chairman or other members of a com- mittee in pursuance of the report of the committee. He was of opinion that it was perfectly competent for the Council to con- sider the recommendation of the committee. The Chairman And 1 say it is not until the previous resolution is rescinded. Dr. W. H. Griffiths said that by Stand- ing Order No. 60, it was provided that the Chairman's construction on the Standing Orders or on any question of order not provided for by the Standing Orders, shall Jbe conclusive. He thought it was their duty to stick to the ruling of the chair- man. He may be right or he may be wrong, but they must be guided by his decision. If he ruled a certain thing out of order it was for the Council to accept his decision. He reminded them that that was a Council meeting, and not a committee meeting. It would be right enough to bring such a resolution before a committee meeting, but before bringing it before a Council meeting it was necessary that the former resolution bearing on the subject should be rescinded, and that could not be done unless proper notice was first given to every member It would be most unfair to absent members if they allowed it to be rescinded that night. As he was the proposer of the previous resolution, he would be inconsistent if he did not stick to it. That resolution authorised Mr C. Mc'Laren, M.P-, to use his influence of the Local Government Board to agree to certain roads being of a less width than 36 feet, and the Local Government Board had acceded to that. and yet it was now proposed that they should not accept the privilege which they had originally asked for. He admitted that the action of Mr Jones was perfectly consistent in this matter, as he was prepared to give six feet in order to make the road on which his property stood,36ft wide- But that raised another question. The question that night was whether they were going to stick to their original resolution. He thought they ought to stick by their chairman, for if they allowed his ruling to be ignored they would land themselves into a proper muddle. The proper course was for Mr Jones to give notice of motion to rescind the previous resolution. The Chairman: Mr Jones says it is a personal matter with me because I want a road myself made less than 36 feet wide. Dr. Griffiths: You are opening the question yourself now. The Chairman: I have stated in one or two meetings that I don't take into consideration my road at all, but was anxious that the bye-laws should pass through. It was, how- ever decided that certain roads should be exempted for Mr Mc'Laren, and I said that if others were going to have their roads exempted why not me. Mr John Jones I don't want to. The Chairman: I am not speaking to you at all Mr Jones. Mr John Jones Who are you speaking to then ? The Chairman: I am addressing the Council Mr JohniJones: That is a funny way of addressing the Council. The Chairman :(warmly): You are going a bit too far Mr Jones- It comes to this that nobody is to have their roads less than 36 feet, except the owners of Bryneitbyn Avenue and Linden Walk. Mr John Jones: No, that is to be 36 feet 1 am willing to give the land. The Chairman If you are going to let one, et the rest, or let none at all have it. Mr John Jones: Will you move that ? The Chairman No, I will not move any- thing at all. Mr John Jones: As you have now re-opened the question I will move that the proceedings of the committee be confirmed. If proceedings of a committee are not allowed to be considered, we shall presently not know where we are. The Chairman: Give notice for the next meeting. Mr John Jones: We are given to under- stand that the clerk is acting out of order in calling us to together, and when we do meet and pass something we are given to understand, that the committee has no authority or power to do it. The best thing in future when we receive a summons from the clerk to attend a committee meeting, is to stay away altogether. We are acting like a lot of little children. The Chairman: Yes in applying to the Local Government Board for one thing, and when they agree to it saying we will not have it. Mr John Jones: Because we asked the Local Government Board for the option to do a certain thing it does not follow that we are bound to do it. When the application was made the chairman himself said that the fact of applying to the Local Government Board did not imply that these roads were to be agreed to; that the matter could be debated upon. The Chairman: That is a direct lie. Mr J- L. L- Jones said that when they made the application to the Local Govt. Board with respect to these roads they also passed that all roads upon which cottage property was erected should be 30 feet. The Local Government Board had declined that, so that it made an alteration in the circumstances of the ap- plication. The Chairman said he would take the sense of the meeting as to whether or not the recommendation of the committee should be considered, and the meeting decided in favour of doing so. Mr John Jones then formally proposed the confirmation of the recommendation of the committee. He said there had been many important motions before the Council from time to time. but he did not think there had ever been any more important proposal than that with regard to the width of the roads. Were it not that the chairman had lost his temper they would have been able to deal with the matter in a cool and businesslike manner. They ought to look at this matter not from a personal standpoint, but from the standpoint of the interest and future prosperity of Prestatyn. They ought to deal fairly with everyone all round. They would recollect that he had time after time stated that if they could only have the option of making certain roads 30 feet or 25 feet wide, that he would be willing to agree to it. He thought the chair- man would bear him out in that. The Chairman I question it very much. Mr John Jones assured the meeting that that was so. But what they did was to make application to the Local Government Board for discretionary powers, and these were refused them. But at an interview they subsequently had with Mr McLaren he wished them to adopt certain roads which were less than 36 feet wide, and in return he would give so much of Nant Hall Road. They accepted his offer, and after they had done so and agreed that the roads should only be 34 feet wide, Mr McLaren turned around and said he would not agree to the offer he had made unless tbey undertook to make Bastian Road to metal, sewer, pave and channel it right away at once, and unle3s they did so he threatened to withdraw his offer. The committee who dealt with the matter were very indignant as they considered they were very badly treated. They saw. Mr McLaren again, and they thought—at least he was influenced by that expression of feeling, that there would be no harm in making ap- plication to the Local Government Board for power to agree to adopting of the roads, seeing that if the application was granted they could then debate the matter. Certain roads wete named at the time as being less than 36 feet wide. He had since looked into the different roads that were named and found that the bulk of them had not been made at all. The only road that had been made pro- perly was Linden Walk, and that had been metalled, sewered, paved and channelled. Bryneithyn Avenue had not been made so far as the paving and channelling were concerned. He owned certain property on that road and he was prepared to give the necessary six feet to the Council in order to make that road 36 feet wide, if Mr McLaren would only do the same. They would therefore see that he was perfectly consistent and straightforward. He was willing to do everything for Prestatyn, for he had no personal motives to serve. The Chairman No only your next-door neigh- bour Mr John Jones: Who is he ? The Chairman Myself, I suppose. Mr John Jones: I am very sorry to hear this. Don't loose your temper. I have tried to deal with the matter in a cool manner, and to discuss it fairly. Continuing, he repeated that he had no personal interests to serve, for he was prepared to give the necessary six feet in Bryneithyn Avenue to make that road 36 feet wide. With regard to moat of the roads mentioned, he found that they had not even been touched. Aber road was simply a field. It was land intended to be sold some day—perhaps in the next fifty or hundred years, and at that time, when everybody else was compelled to make his road 36 feet wide, the man who bought that particular property would be able to make his road only 30 feet wide. He maintained that it was unfair that anyone who came to Prestatyn to buy land should be handicapped in having to make their roads 36 feet wide when other people could make them only 30 feet wide. Had the roads mentioned in the application to the Local Government Board been already made, it would be quite another thing. They were simply cutting., and could be made the requisite width without any difficulty. The only difficulty was that those who owned the property did not care to give too much to Prestatyn. They should look at this matter from the point of view of the present and future prosperity of Prestatyn. They had been advised time after time, both by their late and by their present Surveyor, that it was a most important matter that they should have the roads in Prestatyn made at a proper width, in order to induce people to come to Prestatyn and erect a good class of residential property, and they ought to adhere rigidly to that advice. He objected strongly to making fish of one and flesh of the other. They ought to refuse to give anybody a privilege above his neighbour. If a privilege was to be given, let it be a privilege all round. The days of class legislation had gone by. They now lived in an age when democracy was to rule. He thought it was unfair to give landowners privileges which they were not prepared to give to anybody else. He appealed to them in fairness to all parties, and in the interest of the prosperity of Prestatyn, to adopt the resolution of the Road Committee. Mr Ellis Roberts seconded the proposition made by Mr John Jones, andjendorsed all he had said. The Chairman said he could agree with much of what Mr John Jones had said, and thought that in regard to Bastian Road Mr McLaren went too far. Hnving made applications to the Local Government Board to adopt certain roads, and they having granted it, what fools would they look if they now turned round and said they would not accept what they asked for. Personally, he was quite prepared that all the roads should be 36 feet wide. Mr John Jones: If you move that, I will second it. The Chairman: I am waiting for a gentleman to propose something, and I will accept it, you included. Mr John Jones Thank you for the privilege. The Chairman Don't show any personal feeling towards me that is all I ask. Dr Griffiths said he had no personal interest to serve, for he had no road that he wished adopted or any property in Prestatyn. But he reminded the Council that they had made application to the Local Government Board to grant them certain powers with regard to the adoption of certain roads which were lees than 36 feet wide, and the Local Government Board had granted them those powers, and for them now to refuse to act upon the authority given them was simply child's play. He was not altogether satisfied as to the wisdom of insisting upon all roads being made 36 feet wide. It may be that in doing so they would hinder rather than assist speculators ooming to the place. He failed to see there was any unfairness in adopting the present rcadslseeing that with speculators it was a matter of luck more than anything else. Ho proposed as an amendment that they refer the matter back to a committee of the whole Council for further consideration. Mr Ellis Roberts aaked what about people who already owned land that was undeveloped. He owned some land, and he should be obliged to make his road 36 feet wide. Dr Griffiths: That is a matter of luck also. Mr J. E. L. Jones considered that inasmnch as the Local Government Board had not granted the whole of their application they were justified in reconsidering their attitude in regard to the portions granted. He added that Mr John Jones bad promised at the committee :meeting to give the necessary six feet in order to widen the road upon which his property abutted. He mentioned this infairness to Mr Jones, lest it should bethought that the promise was prompted by the debate that evening. Mr J. B. Linnell said that Mr John Jones had been extremely personal towards him that evening. He denied he was on the Council as the repfesenta- tive of Mr and Mrs McLaren. In all he had done since he had been a member, he had been animated by a detire simply for the good of the town. When these Nant Hall roads were laid out a surveyor walil engaged, who laid them out to the width of 34 feet, it being understood by Mr and Mrs Mclaren that that was the proper width. It would haye been nothing to them to have made them two feet wider at the time. He considered that if these roads were made 34 feet wide they would be quite enough for the purposes of Prestatyn for many years. If they passed the by-laws in accordance with the per- mission granted by the Local Government Board, they could proceed at once with the making of the roads. But ii they passed that night the resolution of the Road Committee, they would not be able to do anything until they had heard further from the Local Government Board. They were acting like a lot of little children. They asked for one thing to-day, and the Local Government Board having granted it, they refused to aocept it. Mr John Jones said that the reason he Siid Mr Lianell was there as the representative of Mr McLaren was because Mr MaLaren had expressed to him (Mr Jones) and to another councillor his indignation that Mr Linnell had nct been selected as one of the candidates for the first Council. He urged that Mrs McLarcn and himself ought to have someone to represent their interests on She Council, and he urged that on them until Mr Linnell was elected. He made that statement on the information of Mr McLaren. Mr Linnell: You say I am here gagged and bound hand and foot ? Mr John Jones: I say you are here to represent his interest. The Rev T. Price: You ought to have said that at the time of the election. Mr John Jones: I am too old a tacitician for that. Why did you not mention it ? The Rev T. Prico: I did not know of it. Dr Griffiths said he would withdraw his amend- ment and propose that they accept the proposals as n.ade by the Local Government Board. Mr Linnell seconded. On being put to the vote, Dr Griffiths' amendment was carried by five votes to four. Mr John Jones said he intended to call a public meeting to protest against the decision of the Council. An important matter had been carried by only one vote, and that by the vote of a gentleman who voted in committee for the resolution which he proposed. When, however, he found that his own road was not included he voted against it. Mr John Pritchard said he was misled at the committee meeting. He understood that the com- mittee agreed to all the roads recommended by the Local Government Board. Mr John Jones: It was debated fairly enough. The Clerk: Fair play to Mr Pritchard, he did aot understand it. Mr John Jones: I heard that the Chairman and Mr Pritchard came here the next day, and when they found that their own roads were not included they made enough row to pull the place down. The Chairman: That is not true. All I wanted was that things should be in order, Mr John Jones subsequently sent a written protest to the Clerk against the legality of the resolution of the Council. THE NEW PUBLIC HALL. Plans of the new public hall for Mr Foulkes Roberts, solicitor, were laid before the Council and unanimously adopted.

FOOTBALL, -

NOTES FROM PRESTATYN.

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