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Colwyn Bay and Colwyn District…


Colwyn Bay and Colwyn District Council. At the Council's monthly meeting on Tuesday, the Rev Thos Parry (Chairman) presided, and there were also present the revs W. Venables- Williams aad J. G. Howarth, Messrs John Roberts, John Porter, Geo Bevan, Owen Williams, Hugh Hughes, Robert Evans, John Blud, William Davies, and Hugh Davies. Mr Amphlett acted as Clerk, in the absence of Mr James Porter and Messrs William Jones (Surveyor) and Benjamin Powell (Collector) were also in attendance. AN APOLOGY REQUIRED. After the minutes of the last Council meeting and a special meeting of the Council had been taken as read, the Rev W. Venables-Williams moved the suspension of the Standing Orders, adding that he had a question of privilege to bring forward. Mr Wm Davies Won't it come in on the reso- lution on the Agenda? The Rev W. Venables-Williams No, sir. The Chairman Won't you leave it till we come to the item General Business on the Agenda ? The Rev W. Venables-Williams: No, sir. I think it will arise from the minutes at the bottom of page 173 Surveyor's Salary: It was resol- ved that Mr John Roberts be permitted to with- draw his proposition made at the last Highway Committee herein.—It was proposed by Mr George Bevan, seconded by Mr John Blud, and carried unanimously, that a Committee be ap- pointed to inquire into the Duties and Salaries of all officials of the Council, and bring the same before the Council." My question arises out of that. I wish to ask, sir, for a copy to be produ- ced of the minute by which a testimonial was granted to the Surveyor of this Council. Mr Amphlett then read the minute referred-to, from which it appeared that, at the Council's general meeting held on the 14th January, 1896, the Chairman read a letter from the Surveyor, asking the Council to grant him a testimonial supporting him in his application for the Survey- orship of Buxton, and it was decided to grant the request, and a Committee was appointed to draw up the testimonial. The Rev W. Venables-Williams Well, in the face of that I wish to ask whether it is true, as stated in the report of the meeting which ap- peared in the North Wales Chronicle February 22nd, that that testimonial was given by this Council to Mr Wm Jones, our Surveyor, for the purpose of getting rid of him. It has been stated. The Rev J. G. Howarth I was present when it was passed. Mr Wm Davies It is not correct. The Rev W. Venables-Williams I think this Council ought not, under the circumstances, to stultify itself, and cast ridicule and obloquy upon an officer of the Council, by saying that they gave him a testimonial to get rid of him. Mr Blud I rise to a point of order. That motion (for the suspension of the Standing Orders) has not been seconded. The Rev W. Venables-Williams: Oh, I dare say it will be seconded. Mr John Roberts I will second it. The motion was put and carried. The Rev W. Venables-Williams I wish to ask an explanation. It is cruel in the extreme that such a thing as that should go forth in reference to an officer who, I do not hesitate to say, does his duty well, and conscientiously, and faithfully. I do think this Council is entitled to an ex- planation of such a statement as that. Mr Wm Davies Mr Chairman, I suppose it alludes to me under the circumstances you will remember. I asked a question to the Surveyor whether he had been with the reporters, helping them to put this report in the papers as far as the 120 speeches. I was told distinctly he was. Mr John Roberts That's not in order. The Rev J. G. Howarth (to Mr Davies, slyly) Unless your conciencc smites you. [Laughter.] Mr Robert Evans: I don't believe such a remark was made at that meeting. The Rev J. G. Howarth No, I would not have signed [? consented to] it. Mr John Roberts I don't remember any re- mark of the kind, and that made me stand up and propose some increase in salary. I look on the Surveyor as a very valuable man just now. He does all he can to make Colwyn Bay a successful watering-place. He has the plans of the fore- shore at present, and no doubt there is work there for three or four years, and it would be a great loss to the Council to lose a man who has drawn up all the plans, and who knows everything about the plans. I made a remark of that kind, but I never knew that any member of the Board said any such thing. I never heard it. The Chairman: I wonld never have signed such remarks. Mr Blud: Since this matter has been alluded-to, it is well to clear the air. The remarks made in that paper were made at a subsequent meeting of the Council, and if Mr Davies made strong re- marks which I did not agree-with,—we must remember he was very much provoked. He was asking the Surveyor if he concocted with the re- porters a report which was false and unfounded, and malicious, and tended to bring public ridicule upon this Council. The Surveyor answered him back, 'You can take it that way if you like,' and it was then Mr Davies made those remarks. I don't believe such a report would have been made and gone out to the Press if a certain gentlemen had been present at that meeting. A certain gentle- man was absent from the meeting, and they took occasion to fabricate a report which was false, malicious, and unfounded. That meeting was conducted in a businesslike way, and we got through the business of five hours in three hours, and, because you were present, sir, and because it is the end of the year, and the election is coming- on, the local Press, and Mr Venables-Williams's friends on the Press [The Rev W. Venables- Williams: Mr Chairman, I hardly think that is in order.], sought some occasion to throw ridicule on certain members. Mr Wm Davies And on the Chairman. The Chairman I don't care, thank God, what they say about me. The Rev W. Venables-Williams According to the paper I hold in my hand, the Surveyor said nothing more than this. [Mr Williams here read the report.] Those are the words of the report, and the Surveyor simply replied Those are your sentiments," and there the matter ends. I think this Council is entitled to an apology from the member who made such a reflection upon the Surveyor. The Chairman I don't think myself it is worth a minute of consideration. We, as a Council, at least the majority, have every confidence in the Surveyor, or else we should not have entrusted him with the work we have done. Mr Porter I think, if the words are true as uttered by Mr Davies, he should apologise. Mr Wm Davies If any body besides my very enemies would ask for it, I should not hesitate to give it. A pause ensued at this stage, when some con- versation (inaudible to our reporter) took place, after which Mr John Porter said, Is it right to pass this over in this way?" The Chairman I am not passing it over. Have you anything to say, Mr Davies ? Mr Davies I beg to ask Mr Jones if it is cor- rect.-I-otily just answered him as I got the Mr Blud More than one apology will be if t!:i. 1t.ti.s. f The Chairman Have you ?ny answer, Mr Jones? The Surveyor: I think Mr Winter (reporter) answered him himself. Mr Davies Didn't you ask them (the reporters) to put it in the papers and make sport of me and others? Didn't I tell you, Mr Howarth, that something was going out ? Mr Howarth You told me something. Mr Wm Davies Of course, I knew about it the same afternoon. The Surveyor: Mr Davies, it is a deliberate falsehood, concocted, and the reporters will bear me out. Mr W. Davies: It is a fact you are well known, sir. The Surveyor And so are you too. Mr W. Davies As for the reporters —— (A dicsreet friend here pulled Mr Davies up, and his opinion of the reporters was not uttered, but he seemed to be on the point of resuming when several cries of "Chair" and "Order" were audible, and the Chairman's Now, Mr Davies," finally silenced him). The subject was then dropped. THE SPECIAL MBETING. The miuutes of the Special meeting contained the following items:— Foreshore Loan.- The Clerk read a letter from the Local Government Board as follows Local Government Board, Whitehall, London, S.W., 15th February, 1896.—Sir, I am directed by the Local Govern- ment Boardto acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 12th instant with reference to the application of the Urban District Council of Colwyn Bay and Colwyn for sanction to borrow X i^iooo for the construction of a promenade. As regards the question of constructing groynes, with a view to retaining the shingle in front of the proposed sea wall, the Board are advi- sed that, so long as the shingle is maintained at its present level, there is no risk of the base of the wall being undermined by the scouring action of the sea, but that the travel of the shingle along the foreshore in front of the wall will have to be closely and constantly watched, and if at a future date it ts found that from any cause the level of the shingle is seriously and permanently lowered, immediate steps must be taken to collect and retain the shingle by the construction of groynes carried out from the face of the wall at a suitable angle. The Board desire to ^be furnished with an assurancel that the precaution suggested will be carefully observed by the District Council.—The Board are further advised that, although the thickness of the proposed wall is sufficient where the ground at the back has not previously been disturbed, the wall should bestrengthened where filling isjrequired by counterforts of Port- land cement concrete, carried down to a depth of five or six feet, the space between the counterforts being filled in with shingle for purposes of drainage. The Board desire to be informed whether the District Council will carry out this sug- festion.—With respect to the arrangements to be adopted for draining off the surface water, the Board are still of opinion that the proposal to leave this to be effected by the slope of the promenade, so that all the water will run over the face of the wall, is open to objection, and will be more so if by the move- ment of the shingle a greater height of wall becomes unco- vered. I am to request that this matter may be further con- sidered bv the District Council, with a view either to the adoption of the suggestion made in the second paragraph of the Board's letter of the 6th ultimo, or to provision being made for the collection of the surface water by a channel discharging on to the foreshore, by one or more cast-iron pipes at a dis- tance of from 20 to 30 feet from the face of the wall. The Board should be informed of the result of the further consi- sideration of this matter by the District Council.-I am at the same time to state that the Board have not yet been furnished, as requested in their letter of the 6th ultimo, with a cross sec- tion through the proposed ornamental pond showing how the pond is to be supplied with water and how the overflow is to be dealt with this should be done without delay.-I am. Sir, Your obedient Servant, ALFRED D. ADRIAN, Assistant Secre- tary. James Porter, Esq." The Chairman reported that he and the Sur- veyor had gone into the matter, and the Surveyor presented a report as follows Surveyor's Report :Vith regard to the letter of the Local Government Board, dated the 15th instant, I would recommend that the Council undertake the construction of groynes as they suggest, being that they will be wanted in some part of the tore- shore sooner or later.—Also the adding of the counterforts might be agreed to, as the short depth of filling there is against the sea wall will not necessitate many.-With regard tothe draining of the surface water of the Promenade, I am not aware that this has been done in any other work of this description, and considering the short fall there will be for the same over the wall, it is rather an unnecessary expenditure, still as I am afraid that they will not be satisfied without com- pliance with this suggestion, I would carry out the same by half round channel bricks discharging through iron pipe as they mention.- In reply to the last paragraph, I may state that a large detail drawing across the Promenade at this point has been supplied them, but the pond was not shown on the same as the size of the culvert which will have to be constructed to carry Eirias Stream under the Promenade will not allow the formation of a pond, and being that the Promen- ade slopes seawards in 171, the pond would have to be 3 fret deep on the south side, so that the same might be a source of more danger than of pleasure." It was proposed by the Chairman, seconded by Mr John Blud, and carried unanimously, that an answer be sent to the Local Government Board, based on the Surveyor's report forthwith. The Surveyor also reported that the London and North Western Railway Company had refun- ded the rent paid by the Council in respect of the foreshore since the lease had been granted to the Council.—The Surveyor also submitted the plans which he had drawn for the purpose of supplying the information required by the London and North Western Railway Company.—It was resolved that they be referred to the next Highway Com- mittee. Pillar Boxes.-The Surveyor read a letter which he had received from the Postmaster herein as follows "Post Office. Colwyn Bay, 31st January, 1896.—To Mr Jones, My Dear Sir, It has been decided to place a Pillar Box at the bottom of Rhiw Road, below Mr Powlson's shop, and it is also decided to remove the Pillar Box on Conway Road about 150 yards nearer to the Head Office at the bottom of Sueen's Drive. I shall be grateful for the sanction of your oard to enable me to give this facility and convenience to the town.—I am. Dear Sir, Yours faithfully, I JONES." It was resolved that the Council approve of the Pillar Box being placed at the bottom of Rhiw Road, but they object to the removal of the pre- sent one in Conway Road but they will have no objection to an additional Pillar Box being placed at the bottom of Queen's Drive. THE FORESHORE. The Chairman said that the Council was prob- ably aware that the advertisements for tenders for the foreshore works, were published, and the tenders were to be in by the 27th inst. He begged to propose that a special meeting of the Council be held-on that day, to open and consider the tenders. This proposition was agreed-to. Mr William Davies moved that a vote of thanks be passed by the Council to Mr J. Herbert Roberts, M. P., for his prompt action in this matter. Mr Bevan I don't think he said anything at all about it. ("Laughter.J Mr John Roberts seconded the vote of thanks, which he said Mr J. Herbert Roberts, M.P., fully deserved at the hands of the Council. Mr Bevan quite agreed, but felt obliged to say that, in his opinion, it was a mistake to request their Member to ask the questions he had done, in the House of Parliament. It only tended to expose the slovenly manner in which that Council did its work, and that exposure had gone whole- sale throughout the country. Mr Blud remarked that the putting of those questions, was no proof of slovenliness on the part of the Council in doing its work, for similar questions came from Parish and District Councils all over the country, and they had it from their own Clerk, that the Local Government Board had said they were overwhelmed with work in con- nexion with such questions. He was astonished at Mr Bevan making such remarks. The vote of thanks was unanimously agreed-to, and, after some further discussion, the Highway Committee's minutes were adopted. THE SANITARY COMMITTEE. The Rev. W. Venables-Williams moved the adoption of the Sanitary Committee's minutes, which, among others, contained the following item :— Cemetery.-It was proposed by Mr John Blud, seconded by Mr William Davies, and carried unanimously, that this Committee recommend that the Council proceed to put the Land Clauses Act in force for acquiring a piece ot land (4 acres) near the Gas Works, belonging to Colonel Cayley, for the purpose of using the same for a Cemetery. Mr Williams explained that this minute did not accurately state what was decided-upon at the Committee, as the original resolution did not specifically mention any particular piece of land. I itfr Willia'i" iiranKaineu a piece of land near the Gas Works, was specified. Mr John Roberts observed that he did not think that the Council could put the Land Clauses Act in force till November. Mr Blud said that, as the mover of the re- solution, he left it to the discretion of the Clerk as to the name of the owner of the land, because he (Mr Blud) did not know it, but certainly a piece of land near the Gas Works" was specified. Mr William Davies thought that, if Mr Bevan would look at the minutes of the last meeting, Mr Bevan (wearily) Oh, I have had quite enough of those. [Laughter]. Mr William Davies Well, I can quite believe you only came here as obstructor. [Cries of Order, order "]. Mr Bevan That's a libel. [Laughter]. The Sanitary Committee's minutes were con- firmed. THE FINANCE COMMITTEE. The minutes of the Finance Committee, of which Mr Bevan moved the adoption, contained the following, among other items :—Surveyor's Cash, £93 12S 1 id; Collector's Receipts, L183 15s id; Treasurer's Receipts, L643 15s id Treasurer's Balance, L210 4s 8d Payments, £ 217 Os 2d Promenade, L677 Sewerage, L384 Street Improvements Loans, Lio,ooo. The Clerk sub- mitted Tenders for these Loans, and he was in- structed to write to Messrs E. O. Preston & Co., asking them to reduce their terms for negotiating the loans, &c., from Li 10s od to Ll 2s 6d per cent. Main Roads Account, r896-97.-A letter was read from Mr Llewelyn Adams herein.—It was carried unanimously, that this Committee recom- mend the estimate of the amount of maintaining the main roads at L120 per mile, and that the Council be also recommended to enter into an agreement for the maintaining of the main roads with the County Council for a period not exceed- ing three years. Vote of Thanks.-It was proposed by Mr John Roberts, seconded by Mr John Porter, and carried unanimously, that a vote of thanks be extended to the Chairman of this Committee for the able way he had executed his duties as such during the past year.—Mr George Beven responded, and thanked the Committee for the assistance rendered him by the members of the Committee during his term of office. NOTICES OF MOTION. VIOLENT AND DISGRACEFUL PERSONALITIES. In pursuance of notice given, Mr Bevan moved That the resolution passed at a special meeting of the Council, dated 21st January, 1896. stating that the majority of the Council voted for the members of the Cowlyd Board under understand- ing that we elected them for ensuing year, &c. be rescinded." Proceeding, Mr Bevan said,—I think, sir, it will only be necessary for me to state the circumstanoes under which that motion was put on the books, for you to see that this is not a resolution of the majority of this Board, nor can it possibly embody the opinions of the majority of this Board, because at the special meeting at which it was put upon the books, the business was understood to be over, by the majority of us, and we left the room, with the exception of four members, and of these four members, there were only two who voted for it,—one was in the chair, one did not vote at all, and the other two sup- ported it,—and so this opinion, sent up to the Local Government Board as being the opinion of the majority of this Board, was really the opinion of two men only, and I say it was false and wrong, and should be rescinded. Mr Evans What is the quorum on this Board? [A Member: Four.] Then if there were four members present, it was the opinion of the majority of the Board. The Rev W. Venables-Williams I will go a step further The Chairman Are you going to second the motion ? The Rev W. Venables-Williams Yes, sir; but I will go a step further than Mr Bevan, and say the word should be, not rescinded," but removed from the minute-book, expunged. I have a distinct recollection that the Chairman had left the chair, and that the whole business was over, and upon that understandiug four of us went out. Mr Evans Where to ? The Rev W. Venables-Williams: We went out. Mr Evans: Where to? The Rev W. Venables-Williams We left the room. Mr Evans But where to? You went to see Mr Howarth. The Rev W. Venables-Williams Was the Clerk present ? Mr Evans Yes, the Deputy was here. The Clerk's clerk here explained that only he was present. The Clerk had gone out to swear some affidavits. Mr Evans: The Chairman was in the chair. He swore the affidavits after the Surveyor's report. The Surveyor said that there was no Surveyor's report. Mr Bevan intimated his willingness to accept the words" remove from the minutes," instead ot the word rescind." Mr Evans, rising to speak, was asked whether he intended to mo\e an amendment, but he thought that it was necessary to call the attention of the Council and of the Local Government Board to the fact of the first election of the Water Board. The majority of the Board really was even then against the three members who were elected. The Clerk pointed out that the instructions con- tained in the resolution which Mr Bevan wished to rescind had already been carried out, and a reply had been obtained from the Local Govern- ment Board. Mr Bevan What is the reply ? The Clerk read the reply, which was to the effect that the Board above, were not prepared to re-open the question. Mr Bevan Oh, well. The sooner it is rescinded the better. Mr Evans: We ought to reply to that reply [Laughter], and (looking fiercely at the Clerk), if you don't reply, I will, as I said before, and nobody can blame me for doing it. The Clerk (quietly) I act according to the instructions of the Council, not according to the wishes of any single member. I The Conncil divided, Mr Bevan's motion being defeated. THE WOODS. Mr Beavan next moved "That the resolution of the Highway Committee adopted by the Council on the nth February 'to put the Land Clauses Act in force as to the purchase of the Woods be rescinded, and a deputation of 3 or 4 members of this Council be appointed to interview the Directors of the Pwllycrochon Estate Co., to negotiate with them as to their terms for purchase by the Council, of the Woods, and, failing that, for keeping the same open to the public as usual." Mr Bevan said, "Since the last meeting of the Board, it has been very freely expressed by rate- payers that it will be the ruin of Colwyn Bay if our Woods are closed in June as threatened. Well, in order to obviate that, I have moved this resolution, firstly, because we are not in a position as yet to put the Land Clauses Act in force,—and we have not yet really exhausted the resources of civilization.' [Laughter]. We have not got to the Company, since the negotiations were broken-off at our request, to re-open the matter, and the least thing we can do, will be to send a deputation of three or four of our best men, and re-open the negotiations in an amicable and friendly way." Mr Blud I rise to order, and call your at- tention to Standing Order Number 9, which says that every member shall be seated except the member who is speaking. I find a gentleman on my left who is not sitting. This referred to the Rev. W. Venables-Williams, who had originally been sitting at,the end of the table farthest from the fire, and had afterwards come to the fire, where he was partly hidden from the members by the screen, and had then moved from the fire, and was standing behind the row of members sitting on Mr Blud's side of the table. Mr Blud's intervention in the discus- sion on this ground, evoked a burst of laughter, and the Rev. W. Venables-Williams procured a chair, and sat down where he had been standing. Proceeding, Mr Bevan said, 1 think if this d^pwtalion went and re-opened the negotiations with the Company we should find them in a friendly spirit, and thai will be found that it was their intention that these 'W^jwds should with the Company we should find them in a friendly spirit, and that it will be found that it was their intention that these--s should lJ-a- handed over to the public, but, owing to the way in which the Council have been going about their business the last few meetings, with threatenings I and threatenings, and breathings of slaughter [laughter], the Company have had their back put up a bit. I Mr John Roberts (indignantly) I never threatened, or slaughtered, or proposed to cut down the Woods at all. Such language is not re- quired for the occasion, unless somebody was slaughtered here. It is the extravagance of the English language, and I am very glad I don't understand as much of it as you. Mr Bevan I think I am in order, sir, and that I am addressing the Council. Mr Roberts You are not in order in saying that I said anything ———— Mr Bevan I never said anything about you, and I had not the slightest idea ot injuring your feelings by anything I said. Mr Roberts (contemptuously) You don't in- jure my feelings, I never proposed to slaughter them. [Laughter]. Mr Bevan The Company look upon this pro- posal on our part, as a threat to take the Woods by force, so to speak. Well, I am quite sure the Board itself has no idea of negotiating in that manner with the Company, and I feel that, failing to buy, we should negotiate with the Company, for keeping the Woods open till we come to some arrangement with them, even it it is to pay a small sum per annum, but of course that can be better done by the deputation. Mr Porter seconded the motion, and was sorry to tell the Council that already the news that they were going to be bereft of one of the attractions of Colwyn Bay, had spread all over the country. It was a great pity that they should close those grounds. He believed that a friendly discussion would still tend to avoid that. [Hear, hear]. The Rev. W. Venables-Williams supported the motion, and endorsed every word Mr Porter had said. He had received a letter from a Birm- ingham gentleman, who wrote that the loss of the Woods, would be the destruction of the charm of Colwyn Bay. Mr John Roberts I think the idea was—the price for the Woods was £8000 for 40 aeries. Of course, we all know the Woods are beneficial to Colwyn Bay, and we all know this, that news- paper editors run to the Estate Company, and then wrote those articles to the papers. I think it wrong of the Company to allow the papers to run the place down that way. I read the article in the Carnarvon & Denbigh Herald on the sub- ject. They have not the good of Colwyn Bay at heart in doing so. The Rev J. G. Howarth said that the Estate Company were most friendly. Mr Roberts Of course they ought to be. How can we stand before the the ratepayers, and have to pay ^8000 ? I don't like the way they are going to force these Woods on us, by threatening to close them up a certain date in June next, and that after the paths have been opened so long. And how can we face the rate- payers and pay Z200 an acre for these Woods, when better land is to be had, close by, tor £ 100 an acre ? I say we are responsible to the ratepayers. I quite agree to take them on lease till we can see our way to buy them. But the Woods are not everything. The Rev J. G. Howarth said that he happened to be one of the Estate proprietors, and he knew the Company had the most friendly feelings to- wards Colwyn Bay, and it was a great mistake to talk about them as had been done somtimes, and to suppose they would get newspaper editors to write something defamatory of Colwyn Bay. He did not believe they would do such a thing, and he could tell the Council that, when he came there first, he found that the Company were prepared to give the Council a piece of land. And more than that, they offered the Woods, and he dared say the Council might have got them for less money than was asked for them. The Rev W. Venables-Williams No, no, sir. They refused to budge from the price they first fixed. Mr Blud This Woods question is a very old question, and I think it is time we came to an under- standing about them. I agree with Mr Roberts. We know the value of the Woods as an attraction, and we know the value of the Woods for building purposes, and we know all about the paths, and we know these paths belong to the public, and that these paths detract from the value of these Woods for building purposes. Now we don't deny that it would detract from the attractions of this district if these Woods were closed, but we have evidence that they have no right to close them, and, if they close them, I for one will make one of half-a-dozen to pull down any obstruction they may place on the free use of the paths. Talk about friendly feelings We don't want to hurt their feelings we are prepared to give them market value. But it appears to me they want to impose on us. The idea of ^8000 for these Woods, with the restrictions they wish to impose! The idea is monstrous And I object to go, cap in hand, to these people, as Mr Bevan proposes. They have sponged on the place for years, and made a pretty good thing out of it. And, besides, we have got to face the future, and sit down and count up our resources, and take into considera- tion all the other expenditures we have to meet in the near future. Mr W. Davies I second putting the Land Clauses Act in force. Tim iiev W. Veuables Williams Mr John Roberts 1-as just informed us that we cannot put the Land Clauses Act in force till November. Mr Roberts Well, let them play their fiddles, I will make one of half-a-dozen. Mr W. Davies I will be another. [Laughter]. Mr Bevan Its a very serious matter. There is no doubt the Estate Company can prevent us opening the Woods if they like. Mr Blud Can they keep us out of the paths ? Mr Bevan They can keep us out of the Woods. I should like to ask this, do you expect to get the Woods cheaper after a valuer has goue through the Woods, than the Company have offered it for ? We know that the land at the top is selling for tlOo an acre, and I don't think you can get it there for the price now. We know that land just under the Woods is selling, and is snapped up immediately, for .£600 an acre. Now is it likely that an arbitrator taking into consideration the value of the Woods, do you think it likely that he will put it at less than X200 an more ? If you think so, go in for the Land Clauses Act. But the way you are going about the business, is just the way to send the price up. The Council then divided, 5 voting for Bevan's motion, and 6 against. The motion was therefore lost. Mr Bevan Who is the sixth ? I only saw five. The Chairman: Me. THE COWLYD BOARD AGAIN. The Chairman then called out Number 10 on the Agenda," whereupon the Rev W. VenfL bles- Williams. bowing, said, Mr Chairman, I beg to bid you and the Board a respectful good morning, isir." Mr Blud (furiously) I hope the Chairman of the Cowlyd Board will stand to his guns, and not run away. The Rev W. Yenablee-Williams (laughing sarcasti- cally, and still bowing): Good morning, gentlemen. (With that the rev gentleman made his exit). Mr Blud (still more furiously) Don't be a moral coward. The Rev J. G. Howarth (indignantly) Order, order. Withdraw. Mr Blud (furiously) Why does he run away ? The Rev J. G. Howarth (sternly) A man is not obliged to remain to be insulted. Mr Blud (defiantly): I am not concerned about your opinions. Mr Bevan That motion is entirely out of order. It has nothing to do with the Board, and, if the Chair. man allows an opportunity of bringing motions of that kind before the Council on other men, you will have nothing but that sort of motions brought here, and I say it is entirely out of order. The Chairman (indignantly): Mr Bevan, I have ruled that Mr Blud is quite in order. Mr Blud then read the motion of which he had given notice, which was as follows:—"That this Counoil, after reviewing the History of the Cowlyd Water Scheme, is satisfied that the Rev Venables- Williams no longer represents the views of the major- ity of its members or the ratepayers in general, and so calls upon him to resign his seat on the Board." Pro- ceeding, Mr Blud said that, undor the circumstances, when some people were very anxious to entangle members in their talk, so as to send them lawyer's letters, and following the example of some greater people, he had written his remarks on paper, and he would neither add to, nor omit from what he bad written, one word, so fe'.iat there could be no mistake ga to what he intended to may. Mr Bevan I think, sir, it is out of order to allow a member to read his speech. We are not here to listen to essays on anybody's ideas. We are come here to work. Mr Blud (sarcastically): It is very evident which side Mr Bevan is on. Mr John Roberts I quite agree with Mr Bevan, that Mr Blud is quite out of order. It is not right to censure the Chairman or other members of the Cowlyd Board here Mr Blud: Who has the right? Mr Roberts Not you. It is the ratepayers. You censure the whole Board in censuring the Chairman, and we stand by him. [Hear, hear]. Mr Blud (contemptuously) You can take it as you like. Mr Bevan I beg to propose that Mr Blud be not heard. Mr John Roberts And I second it. Mr Blud (confidently) I am in tho hands of the Chairman. Yon are not the Chairman. Mr Bevan You are certainly out of order. Mr Blud: And you are not the Chairman. The Chairman I have ruled Mr Blud is in order. Mr Bevan And you are wrong. The Chairman: According to my legal adviser, I am not. If you are the legal adviser to this Council, you had better take the job, and get paid for it. Mr Blud then proceeded to read his speech, and said, Mr Chairman, I think if we were to-day to put to the ratepayers of this District two questions, what is the most costly work connected with your district, and what is the most unsatisfactory, the immediate answer would be the Cowlyd Water Scheme. And then the question arises, Who is chiefly responsible for that Scheme ? Well, sir, we were told here in this room on December 13th, last year, by the Rev Venables-Williams, that he was chiefly responsible for that Scheme. Well, sir, we all know much more about the Scheme to-day than we did twelve months ago. Some of us new members on this Council have never ceased making efforts to learn something of its history, and what we have learnt has caused us to appeal to the Local Government Board for an Inquiry. The Rev Yenables-Williams has again and again defended the Scheme, has boasted of it as being one of the finest Schemes of the Kingdom. He tells us how, at the very commencement, he at once consulted his Conway friends, and how he and Mr T. K Parry obtained the cheapest Provisional Orders ever secured from Government, the Orders only costing X6 8s 10d. Well sir, facts have proved that these precious Pro- visional Orders were £6 8s 10d too dear, that they were not worth the paper they were written Dr.. The reverend gentleman, when he talked about these Pro- visional Orders only costing X6 8" lOd, did not comprehend what he was talking about, because any Provisional Order giving compulsory powers to buy land for the purpose of Public Works, must, of necessity, cost hundreds of pounds. The very paper of a proper Provisional Order would cost more than X6 8s lOd. These Provisional Orders did not contain compulsory powers, hence followed actions for tres- pass, and costly litigation. But, apart from this, the worthlessness of these Orders arise from the fact of their vagueness with regard to the supply of this District. The majority of the Cowlyd Board declare that their responsibility for a supply of water finishes at Sarn Mynach. If so, I ask how can this be called a Joint Water Supply, and where does Llysfaen come in ? Llysfaen is one of the Constituent Authorities contributing to the cost, while we contribute nearly two-thirds. And yet, practically, Con way has almost full control of the main and the main supply. In fact, we find ourselves dependent on the mercy and goodwill of Conway Corporation, for that vital necessity, a supply of good water. And what we may expect from them, may be judged by past experience, by last summer's irregular and pre- carious supply. When we enquired about this short supply, we were told there must be a great leakage somewhere, and then that the pipes were corroded. But we have now discovered that the water was never allowed to come, else we should have got it as we are getting it now. We may also judge as to what we may expect from Conway, by last week's meeting of the Cowlyd Board, when every reasonable and just demand by this District was met with scorn and derision. [ do not find, by the reports, that any of these demands were in any way supported by the Chairman of the Board, although all in ac- cordance with the wishes of this Council and the Ratepayers of this District, and this is one rea- son why I moved this vote of censure. One of the demands made at Conway last week, was for a copy of all documents relating to contracts, etc., being supplied to this Council. The Chairman of the Cowlyd Board told us in this room he courted the fullest and most searching Inquiry into this in tttar then why 11 ¡t let us be supplied with these documents ? We must have the evidence if we are to form a judgment. The tact is, he has never courted any Inquiry from the first. He has never consulted the Colwyn Bay people at all in this matter, never once submitted this Scheme in its earlier stages to tne judgment of this District. Had he have done so, the great majority of our people would have stid Let us have a supply independent of Conway; it will be better, and it w.ll be cheaper." But no, no sooner is the S<:heme th-jugii I aooat, thia the reverend gentleman trots off to that Gamaliel of the Law, T. E. Parry, of Conway, and gets tied up our flourishing young town to one decrepit with age and decay. Now, I neod not go into the working of this Scheme, inasmuch as the Chairman of this Council has laid it bare before a town's meeting here, in all its ugly nakedness. On the statement he gave us there, he showed how the ratepayers' money had been recklessly squandered. That statement has never been answered. The statement has been called mere rhetoric. But I am here to say that that statement was plair. English to all who heard it, and the response to it was a unanimous vote in favour of a Government Inquiry. I gave my opinion of the Scheme at that meeting, and I repeat now what I said then, that this Scheme was corruptly conceived, born in sin, and shapen in iniquity. I believe that, in moving this vote of censure this morning. I am voic- ing the opinion of the people, a people labouring under heavy burdens, tradespeople, and lodging-house keepers, whose life is one constant struggle to meet the demands of heavy rents and heavy taxes. The Chairman of the Cowlyd Board has made those burdens heavier by his disastrous Water Schhme, a SJheme that may prove to be the last straw to break the camel's back. And what makes matters more hard and more exas- perating, is the fact that the reverend gentleman still ignores our wishes, and treats all our demands for justice with contempt, and so I say he has fully for- feited our confidence and support. I therefore move the resolution placed before you, and I appeal to you to vote according to your convictions in this matter. Mr Davies seconded the motion, and said, I said, before I was on the Council, that 1 thought the Kev Venables-Williams was not in the position he ought to be as Churman of that Board. 1 think thi*, that really he was more a friend of Conway than he was ot Colwyn Bay, and time has proved ever since. 1 am glad to hnd that you (the Chairman) are having a little support now from your colleagues. The ratepayers of Colwyn Bay, have, by Mr Blud and me, raised this question so often that they are inquiring into the matter, and 1 very much doubt that it is not them th it have forced these gentlemen to help you. And, according to the proceed- ings last Saturday, we are fairly going to be on the finger- ends OfCoilway. I find Mr Roberts moved Mr Roberts (hotly): I moved it 14 months ago, and 1 am not in the hands of Mr Blud or you. Mr W. Davies (sneeringly): i dare say you did, but the ratepayers have told you something, 1 think. Mr Davies here added some remarks which the reporters did not catch, but which elicited loud cries of Order." The Chairman (to Mr Davies): It is no use going into that. Mr John Roberts 1 am surprised at you, as Chairman of this District Council, allowing such remarks on members atter going to the Cowlyd Board. These are electioneering speecnes. Mr W. Davies: Then you will hear more electioneering speeches, if we have any more of your impudence. Mr Roberts: The ratepayers trust us-- Mr VV. Davies here again made some observations which the reporters did not hear, but which brought down oil him the rebuke of the Chairman, who told him th it he must not be personal. Mr Bevan Mr Chairman, I think sir, with due deference to you, you have allowed this matter to sink, from a discussion of a matter of policy, into a personal attack on the Chairman of the Cowlyd Board LHear, hear], and, whatever gain we have derived from the advent among us of new members on our Council, I leel convinced, and t say it with regret, that they have considerably lowered the tone of discussion on this Board, tor during the last twelve months it has descended to nothing but personal bickerings and quarrellIngs Lhear, bear], and this is the crowning scene. Mr Robert Evans As a new member 1 object to that. Mr Bevan I did uot say anything about you. I say this is a fact. I am on my feet, and you can speak after 1 sit down. [Interruptions.] It the Chairman will kindly keep order. Mr Blud in his speech said that the Provisional Order would cost more in paper than the sum named by the Chair- man üf the Board. 1 have a Provisional Order here. Mr Blud That's a copy. Mr Bevan 1 will ask Mr Blud this question, Of the mem- bers ot the Cowlyd Water Board, who was, and who is more fitted by knowledge, from experience, by business capacity, than our worthy Vicar, to occupy the post of Chairman of the Cowlyd Water Board?" I can t suggest a better man. [Hear, hear]. Of course. Mr Biud may be able to point one out. Mr Davies What knowledge has he had ? Mr Bevan What knowledge have they all ? They are not all builders; and a jolly good job. [Laughter], Weil, sir, Mr Blud has been repeatedly asked m our local paper to formulate any charges against the Chairman of the Cowlyd Board he may conceive there is ground for, in plain and definite terms. 1 have not heard them to-day. He has not mentioned a single mistake or wrong thing that he has done. Although I don't say the Cowlyd Board has not made mis- takes, and very 5ieriOIc; ones, but they were unanimously made, and every member voted for them, and the first few mistakes .thai were made, were made by the whole 01 the ifteiTlbers, and therefore they are all responsible, and not the Chairman alone, and, as Mr Roberts has said, this vote of censure is not on the_Chairman only; it is a vote of censure on every memr of the Cowlyd Board, though Mr Blud tries to narrow it down to the Chairman only. 1 say that we, as a Board, know nothing about the matter, and are not in i, position to say whether they are wrong or not. [Hear, hear]. 1 have no doubt the members of the Cowlyd Board have done their very best. and to say they have been wilfully neglectful, -1 will not believe it for one second. I can't, in looking over the career of this town, AIr W. Davies: We never said wilfully." Mr Bevan You did. Mr John Roberts 1 hope you will not push this into a vote, and I hope Mr Blud will be satislied now that he has read out his essay. [Laughter]. I think it is very wrong to blame us as new members of the Cowlyd Board. There was a great deal ot something, I do not say wrong, but unexpected things cropped up which the Board could not foresee. And we know very well, sir, that you have been a member of the Board, too, from the beginning, and you yourself, if you could see something wrong, you would speak out [Hear, hear], and you were Chairman of the Finance Committee. Mr William Davies: There was no Finance Committee at the beginning. Mr Roberts: I tell you that there was. Ir Davies I ask the Chairman. Mr Roberts I hope the ratepayers in this District will not be foolish enough to think we are going to Conway to wrong the ratepayers of this District. [Hear. hear]. We go to do the greatest possible good we can. This Scheme is a very large Scheme, and will cost perhaps £ 36,000; but it is one of the very best Schemes possible. We have a natural lake of pure water, and that water will be our own. Further, we actually derived benefit from the Scheme last year. The Surveyor: The previous year, we paid £ 800 to Llan- dudno for water; last year we only paid £200. Mr Roberts: So we had a benetit. last year alone, £ (xx>. Mr W. Davies (to the Surveyor) Did it not cost vou about .£50 in carriages in running after the water ? Mr Roberts Well, I hope the visitors will not run awav with the idea that the water is not tit to drink. I think it'is proper to put before the public that we have a °rand water- supply [Hear, hear]. It seems to me that Mr Davies is blaming me more than Mr Venables-Williams. Mr W. Davies: I didn't. Mr Roberts You told the Council something that I played into the hands of Mr Farrington and the Cierk. Mr Davies Last summer. Mr Roberts Well, last summer. I don't remember that I received a benefit from any in this town. Mr Davies I never said so, Mr Roberts Well, what then V Mr W. Davies Friendship. Mr Roberts (scornfully): Do you mean to say that I would sink Colwyn Bay into debt, for the sake of friendship with one of these officials V [ hear], Mr W. Davies You defended them at any rate. Mr Roberts I defe ided them when I thought they were right. I hope the Council won't censure the Chairman of the Board, who has stuck to it for the last four years. The Scheme will will soon be finished, and I hope Mr Venables- VVilliams will still be the Chairman of this Board I hope he will be spared to see the opening of this grand Water Scheme- and have the thanks of the District, tor the work he has done. I am certain that neither he, nor Mr Porter, nor vour- self, Mr Chairman, during all the time you have been on the Board, all these years, never went there with any purpose to spend money in vain, and I am sure of this, that, if there was anything wilfully wrong going on, you would have laid it down on the table, and gone before the ratepayers. I think this motion is wrong entirely. I am sorry to hear Mr Biud. He can't censure the Chairman without censuring the who'e Board. I did my best last Friday,- i Mr Blud I gave you credit for that. | Mr Roberts: It is nothing new. It was not you, gentlemen, I that prompted me. It was done 14 months ago, and I am glad to tell you that some of the gentlemen who voted | against us last Friday will vote for us next time. [Hear, hear.] I can't say much in the English language; 1 can't express myself properly in it. Mr Blud: You express yourself very well. Mr Roberts: It is a foreign language to me. Mr W. Davies It is these foreign reporters we have [Cries or "Order. J. Mr Roberts: It is not the reporters. Fair play to the reporteis, they have done me justice many times, and more than justice, and I have to thank them for it. I don't care whether I am sent on the Cowlyd Board or any other Board again. I am here because 1 am elected here, and. while I am here, I shall do my very best, and I am sure the Chairman is the same. I don't quite agree with the Vicar in everything and I am not afraid ot him not I indeed, and I will stand in his face it I think he is wrong, but he is an able man, and I think his motive is good. He did his very best I am certain, and he got up last Friday, and expressed his regret at the friction between the District Council members, and the Conway members, and the way they voted against each other in our request to have a 12-inch main to our boundary. Mr Porter I regret very much I ever went to that Board because I never went there without having the interests of the ratepayers at heart, and I think it is very hard that we are now told, w.ien this grand Scheme is nearly finished, that we deserve to be censured. We have made mistakes (we all admit that), but unwittingly and unintentionally, and I will )n say this, we have stayed there hour after hour, and there was "r/-°?C ot V,S not Wlsh to do justice to the ratepayers ot Colwyn Bay We are ratepayers ourselves, and large rate- payers, and I don't think we should be judged so harshly, x ou can t censure the Chairman without censuring us all and I think that is cruel. Mr Blud: Mr Bevan has challenged my right, again and again, to criticise the public policy of a pubi c man. I never heard of such an absurd contention from a Councillor in 111V life, He refers to the challenge which has been thrown out to me by the local Press. They have the right to and to criticise me, but I have no right, as a new member lo criticise such a great and reverend man as the Rev V. Venables-Williams Mr Bevan I did not say anything of the kind. I said wui had no right to read your speech. Mr Blud Well, I accept all challenges, and I shall have an opportunity of criticising Mr Be. ans conduct, and to show that the only thing I ha e found about him is that he has been a special pleader tor all the vested interests in the District. [Laughter] A good deal has been s lid about the Rev Venables-Wi hams s knowledge. It is a good thing when used rightly, but, as regards the Cowivd Water Scheme. I say it has not been used to the interests of this Council. I don t include the young members of the Cowlyd Board, because I hnd they are trying to do their best, and I gave Mr John Roberts credit for what he did last week. The Re.' J. G. Howarth And tiu Chairman also. Mr Biud Not the Chairman of the Cowlyd Board Mr Bevan: Well, Mr John Roberts said he did his best. Mr Blud: Well, he said something about friction. I say the Chairman is responsible for tying us up in this Schem \Vith regard to these "serious charges." 1 call Mr Bevan's attention to the tact that I did not make these "serious charges. They were made by a public man in a public meeting. It is all very well to call them "rhetoric." if vou place those docuuents on this table, I will tell you whether I they are serious charges or not. f Mr Bevan: You can get them by going to Conway. Mr Blud: I object to go to Conway. They ought to be supplied, as requested by this Board. Why not have this Scheme in our own hands at Colwyu Bay. Mr Bevan: That's not the Chairman's fault. The Chairman I will not vote in this motion one way or another, because I am one ot the interested parties. Mr Roberts: Well, so long as Mr Davies has mentioned me, and Mr Blud has mentioned the Chairman neither of us can vote. Tho Clerk: It is not a vote of censure You are only calling upon the Chairman to resign. Mr Blun I beg to contest that statement. If we are not moving a vote ot censure, how can we call upon him to resign (savagely, and leaning over the table, and glaring into the Deputy Clerk's eyes): You must not get talking to me such absar i bosh and nonsense. The motio.i on being then put to the Council, and received two votes, h e votes bjnig cast against it. The motion was therefore lost. Mr Davies demanded that the names of those voting for or against the motion be taken down. This was done, and our reporter left.

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