The Principality

HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY, AUQURT 17. The Speaker took the chair at twelve, and proceeded with the reception of reports and other routine business until three, when an adjournment took place.

THE REGIUM DONUM. IN another column we publish the Report of the Parlia- mentary Committee on the above item of the miscellaneous estimates, and a selection of the most important points in the evidence of Dr. Thomas Rees, upon which the Report is founded. Dr. Rees was the only witness examined, and in the examination Dr. Rees appealed to no higher authority than himself. We are therefore left without much light on the subject of this paltry sum, by which whole denomina- tions are compromised to suit the avarice of a few ministers, and the indolence of a few churches. We have read with unfeigned sorrow that part of Dr. Rees's evidence which refers to Wales, and we are very sure most of our readers will participate in our regret. We have no objection to admit, and no desire to conceal the fact, that, ministerial salaries are very.low in Wales. Dr. Rees sup- poses the average to be considerably under £ 50 per annum. On this subject we find the following remarks in the Dissent and Morality, of Wales," p. 47 Every one who enters the ministry among us>«ets himself down a poor man for i life. I do not know of a single Welsh minister in the principality, belonging,to the Independents, Baptists, or Welsh Methodists, whose salary exceeds X120 per annum and I do not think that twenty ministers can be found in Wales in the three aforesaid denominations who receive £ 100 each annually. Among the three denominations which I have already mentioned, X50 per annum is a high average of ministerial salaries. Self-interest, then, cannot be a very powerful motive in our advocacy of Dissent." Dr. Rees then has made no peculiar discovery, but has merely stated what was already known. We feel assured that the Dissenting ministers of Wales are too noble-minded to be annoyed at the statement. They have much icork to show, for very little pay. We are only concerned at present with the doctor's assertions that the greatest number of recipients are Welsh ministers—and the congregations are well aware that their ministers receive donations from the Regium Donum fund. We are prepared to contradict both these statements. In pursuing our inquiries to the economics of Welsh Dis- sent, we addressed inquiries oil the subject of English assist- ance to the Congregational Fund Board, and to a dis- tinguished distributor of the JZegium Donum. We thought that we" showed cause" sufficiently strong to induce the Fund. Board Gentlemen to inform us how much of their money pass to Welsh pockets from year to year. It was then of considerable importance that we should be well informed on tho subject, lest we should take credit to Welsh Dissenters for more than they really do. The Board, how- ever, thought it better that we should remain in the dark, and be unable to contradict the calumnies of interested opponents. Very fortunately, however, for our present purpose, we were a little more successful in our heyium Donum inquiries. The object which we had in view was not precisely answered, but we gained enough, as it were by anticipation, to meet the present emergency. The state- ment we received is as follows: On the most careful comparison of the donations to necessitous minister* which pass through my hands as a distributor of the Par- liamentary Grant, the results are As to persons, nearly equal; the very small difference being in favour of the Welsh, being as 10 to 9. As to pecuniary aniount- .English. 48.. Welsh 45; It appears from this statement that the greatest number of recipients are not Welsh, though the difference is small; 0 1 and that the pecuniary amount is in favour of England. But we have strong reasons to suppose, that so far as the Inde- pendents are concerned, the reverend distributor in question would receive a far larger number of Welsh applications than either or even both his coadjutors. This being the case, we are warranted in setting aside altogether the estimate of Dr. Rees in regard, to the Independents. It would seem that the number of annual cases from that denomination are 148 from the Baptists 154; and from the Presbyterians 55. We canuot persuade ourselves that the Welsh Baptists apply in larger number than the Welsh Independents, on account of their constant and active hostility to State grants. We arc happy in being able to avail ourselves of the information and experience of the Rev. William Jones, of this town, on this point. In a letter which appeared in the Cardiff Guardian for January 29, 1848, after enumerating several churches that received assistance from the Baptist fund of a recliie ioe England, he says. I know of but two Baptist ministers in Wales, that receive assistance from any other ipstitutions in England, unless there may he two or three individuals who ,U.d, the superintendence of the Baptist H&mo Mis- siooary., Society. Now we take the testimony of Mr, Jones to be conclusive so iar as his own determination is concerned. The majority of the 154 annual Baptist cases caonot come, from. Wales. In regard to'the our task is still easier. The annual number of Presbyterian applications are 55. The applicants, we are assured, do not receive their, grants oftener titah once in eighteen mouths, if possible, Now as there arç only SO, Preshyterian ministers in Wales qt: the y utmost, the majority of the cases cannot he Welsh unless they receive annual grants, and then, indeed, the majority would be very bare, supposing it to be received by every individual minister. We therefore submit that the doctor musf be more careful in charging his memory the next time. 0 C5 And bye the bye, perhaps it would do him no harm if he will -be a little* legs itftxious in future to show the desire of h the Independents and Baptists for the grant. His anxiety leads him to commit some statistical blunders. He telte u* in one place that no recipient," except by some oversight or accident, receives his j65 more than once a-year." Well and good, but if we fix the average of the grant at £ 1,650 per annum, and if as he says the money is equally divided be- tween the three denominations, of course the Presbyterians must receive annually £ 550. And if the number of Pres- byterian cases for three years was 166, then the annual average was 55 applicants. Supposing that all were eiigi- ble, X550 divided between 55 persons would give £10 a-year to each applicant. But if no single person receives more than his X5 once in the year, that would amount to only £ 275. What, then, has become of the remain- ing E275 ? Are there as many as 55 annual accidents" or "oversights" in the distribution of the Parliamentary grant among one denomination ? Dr. Rees has proved a little too much for his own purpose. He has proved that though the Presbyterians are far inferior in numbers to the Indepen- dents and Baptists, yet they receive the same amount of money, and that therefore the continuance of the grant is far more important to his own denomination than it is to the other two. Whilst the Presbyterian receives his Jlt) a-year, the Independent has £ 3 15s., and the Baptist only £ 3 lis. 5d. But as no person, generally speaking, receives from some of the distributors an exhibition twice within eighteen months, the individual aggregate becomes still less. It i; true that £1,650 equally (listribtited between 356 persons (the average annual number of applicants), would not amount to 0 f,5 each; but the distribution is not so con- structed. Verily, the mess of pottage" is but a very barn equivalent for the great principles compromised. Dr. Jvco is very confident that the reception of Heyium Donum, .by ministers is well known to their congregations. We wish it were. Our acquaintance with England is not such as .to enable us to speak of the state of thinks there but in re- gard to Wales the statement is a baseless fiction. The Churches do not know it, or the question would be soon de- cided. We could adduce a multitude of painful facts in re lation to this subject, if it were necessary. Suffice it to say that in some instances truth is even sacrificed to prevent the fact from being known. We write with sorrow, and our sorrow has a cause. The Churches and the denominations are compromised through the proceedings of a few indivi- duals. We trust every Church in Wales will make a direct ap- peal to its pastor on the subject, and let every minister who may in consequence relinquish his connexion with the grant be highly esteemed for so doing and be compensated for his. loss, by the free-will offerings of conscientious and high- principled men. The Independents and Baptists have pro- nounced against the foul stigma with great energy and power in their connexional capacity. Let them at last adopt practical measures, such as already mentioned; or let every Church desire its deacons to forward a letter, disclaim- ing all knowledge and approval of the reception of the grant, to the Speaker of the House of Commons. This, pet- haps, may settle the matter.

"7" < OOVBS.-OFBVT .OFFICB 1 he immense sum of 1: 7,450 6%. 8d. is.included in the :u;my estimates for,the current y.-ar for the payioent of retired clerHs frotn.the war office.One >«dk»j||||^iriBC#ifr«' £ .i.500 per* ajjoflm, tvro. £ 1,000 pet annum, $400, £ 50J, ai.d £ J00 per year.

GEN. MACDONALD AND SMITH O'BRIEN. In the evening sitting, Mr. Maher put ^question respecting the conduct of Gen. Macdonald on. the occasion of the arrest of Mr. Smith O'Brien, which elicited a reply from Sir G. Grey, exone- rating Gen. Macdonald from tIle charge of misconduct (that of having used unnecessary violence, and having presented a pistol) implied in the question; Mr. Maher then complained of the mode in which the troops under the. command of Col. Taylor had en- camped within twenty yards of his dining^room? when there was ample accommodation for them elsewhere, in the immediate neigh- bourhood. Mr. Fox Maule informed him that the whole correspondence connected with the subject would be laid before the House.

DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH ROME. Lord Palmerston moved the second reading of the bill. Such a measure did not require at his hand anything like a lengthened vindication. Doubts—and doubts only—had arisen with regard to the power of the Sovereign of this country to hold any inter- course with the court of Rome. The object of the bill before the House was to remove these doubts. Nobody could rationally suppose that there was any danger of the Sovereign of this coun- try departing from the Established religion if diplomatic relations with the court of Rome were instituted. There? was no danger of the Sovereign becoming Mahometan from holding such intercourse with Mahometan powers. Why, then, should an exception be made in the case of the Court of Rome ? As to the advantages to be derived from the bill, the Roman power,, as compared with several of the Italian States, was a power of considerable impor- tance. Our commerce with it was daily increasing, but no power,, existed at present, in the (jovenrment of this country, to enter into any treaty or stipulation with Home, having a view to the re- gulation of our commerce with it. The measure before the House would remedy this defect. There was reason to believe too, that, in the course of a short time, when the railway system of Italy was more fully developed, the iiioa eligible-route to our Indian possessions would be through the lloman territories; There being, as he conceived, no constitutional objections to the bill, he would at once, in full confidence that the House would adopt it, move the second reading of the bill (cheers). Mr. Anstey moved as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time that day three months, which was seconded by Mr. Urquhart. Sir R. Inglis opposed the second reading. „ After a few words from Mr. Moore, Lord John Russell spoke in favour of the measure, saying in conclusion: "My hon. friend (Sir R. Inglis) says that great events, which have changed the position of the Pope, have taken place. Certainly those events do tend to shake the temporal authority ot the Pope but I for one hope that, iiow those eventrhave occurred, we will not say to the Pope, I -We were indeed anxious to have diplomatic relations with you he ou ver strong; but now that you are weak we.are i-euc > to w ft ud such relations, and we must .decline to, have jiticu now with you, (loud cheers). „ i Mr. Law, Mr. Napier, Mr. Palmer, and Mr. ISewdegate, addressed the House in iavour of the amendment, and Mr. II. Druminond, Mr. M. J. O Connell, and Mr. Gladstone, in sup- n.vs-t nf the bill. after which the House divided- For the second reading For the amendment. 4b—79 The other orders, which were of a routine lorm, navin0 oeen disposed of, the House adjourned at half-past one. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, AUG. 21. VANCOUVER'S ISLAND. In reply to a question from Mr. Ilume, Lord John Russell stated that it was the intention of Govern- ment to propose that certain, conditions should accompany the grant to the Hudson's Bay Company, with the view of promot- ing colonization, NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Mr. G. A. Hamilton then rose to move that an humble ad- dress be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that such a modineation of the system of national education in Ireland may be made as may remove the .conscientious objections which a very large portion of the clergy and laity of the Established Church enter- tain to that system as at present carried into operation; or otherwise, that means mav be .taken, to enable those of the clergy and laity of: the Established Church who entertain such conscientious objections, to extend the blessings of Scriptural education in Ireland. Sir. AV. Somerville opposed the motion. Captain Jones, Mr. Grogan, and Sir William Verner sup- ported the address. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the motion 11.6 ■ Against it I.i. 15-103

r TO CORHESPONDÈTS. "Brodor Ger Mynydd Troed." The insertion of your letter would, we fear, lead to an angry, and therefore, unprofitable, dis- cussion. Two letters have already i ppeared-oiie on each side of the question. We believe it would be impolitic to prolong the dis- cussion, especially as the contending parties appear in masks., The Editor of the PRINCIPALITY presents his compliments to the Unpaid Inspector," and begs to say he does not know ot what he complains unless it he that' the Editor has expressed some doubts of his correct knowledge of the Welsh: If so; he must still cherish the same opinion,, as it has been his happiness, a few years ago, to have heard some oral proofs of the fact. Ho is sorry that he has not a copv of the work by him at pu-vnt. The copy for review was sent by a distinguished iriend. of Welsh literature, and has •^ft is^.ur invariable rule not to insert any eomm-anio^tion without possessing in conridence the leal name of the )yriter,

WEEKLY SUMMARY. SINCE our last, Parliament has been chiefly occupied in voting the supplies. Several discussions took place in re- gard to the various items; but no retrenchment lias been effected, though Ministers promise to lead a yery economical career in future. The estimates have been more discussed, this session, perhaps, than at any former period. The Noncon- formist says, We are convinced, from what we have seen in the House, that Ministers dare not pass through 1: such another ordeal as that to which tlu.y have been sub- ioct during the• last fortnight," The vigihmco-; of Mess2_ Hume and Cobden has done much to secure';a better state of things in future. The principal discussions havetieen on 'he foreign policv of Government," State education in Ireland, the opening of the Univerpities for Disjsentiers,*and'^Govern- ment education in England", In the course of the latter de- bate, the following episode took place..Mr, Morris (we presume the honourable member, for Carmarthen) said H that he considered that the Commissioners, who had been appointed to inquire into the state of education in Wales, had, in the report which, with such mischievous.effects, they had'published, greatly exceeded their instructions. He vin- dicated the Welsh people from the charge of extreme immo- rality which ihe Commissioners had brought against them. Sir John Walsh concurred in the opinion that the Commis- sioners had not exercised a very sound discretion in the sweeping censure they had passed upon the Welsh people.. Of his own knowledge he was prepared to JlfrifÙl that the statements of the .Commissioneys, as to the profligacy of the KWelsh" weref'^ltqgcther. j?3Kig}fep.tci3. Their stricture >ver^ both '.Hp, fe>pe4 some spe^iai provision w^idd wants of t he pnujcipality, Mr., J. "\Villianis said that theve but one teeling tlu'ougliout the principaiity> .that the report ot' -th& Commissioners .was a niei-e libel. He was prepared with at least.2(K> letters from different'ipartg of Wales to prove its gross imiccuraey. 1 One of the Commissioners had privately admitted to himself that the Welsh people Were at least equal in education and intel- liwejice to any persons of the Safne class in Etigland. The fault, however, was with the Government W116116A sent to iu- quire into the state ,dfr educftti(>n among the people gentlemen who were whqllv unacquainted with the language "of thiit people (hotu*, liear). Tlie best thing the Govermnent could do m Wiles was, to appoint none; as superintendehts-of; schools, or Bishops, who did not understand the Welsh Ian-1 »ua"-e. Sir G. Grey said tiiat the low condition of educa- tioiriij Wales Vjety" gcneraUy :a^mitteti Ha .^as eon- viuctd tiiat tilt? 'Qomimssionei:^ ;^ai beeii aotuated ,itt theirj viuctd tiiat tilt? Vol ;^ai beeii aotuated ,itt their r inquiries by the strictest impartiality (hear, hear)." Sir George Grey, like every other gentleman, has a. right to his 0 convictions, though we must say that his conviction in this instance- is based upon what a learned contemporary of ours would call I., not knowing the difference between evidence' n and conversation. The sum voted this year for general education in England is E125,000, an increase of F-25,000 on the vote of last year. At this rate the sum will soon reach a million a-year. Lord John Russell has promised a bill on the subject next year. The difficulties between the Com- mittee of Council and the clergy are in course of being set- tled to the mutual satisfaction of the happy family. The endowment of Romanism also, it is rumoured, is likely to take place next session, with the support of the three in- fluential parties in Parliament." The priests pretend that they are not willing to put on State livery; but late proceed- ings on their part indicate that they understand where the golden kettle lies. The Wesleyans are about making several applications to Government for permission to dip their hands into the'Treasury coffers in divers ways. The Bishops of Bangor and St Asaph also have received E400 for the purpose of training Church schoolmasters in North Wales. Her Majesty has ordered that the name of the Prince of Wales should appear as contributor of £ 100 to the Church educational fund in Wales. We trust the executive com- mittee of THE Normal College for W ALES will put the sincerity of Royalty to the test, and afford the youthful Prince an opportunity of becoming the patron of that insti- tution, which is designed for the benefit of all, and not for the benefit of a sect. These events afford abundant indica- tion of the current of events. We trust our countrymen wid be well prepared to resist further aggression on their civil and religious freedom. In Ireland the Government has met but with very equivocal success in the State trials. They have twice tried Mr. Doherty, and the jury have twice failed to agree in a verdict, They may try him again on that account. They have transported Mr. John Martin for ten years. Thejury recommended him to mercy, but be informed the judge that he did not want mercy but justice. Messrs. Smith O'Brien, Meagher, and Gavan. Duny are to be tried for High Treason by a Special Commission in the county of Tipperary. Continental politics are far from being satisfactory. Charles Albert has been beaten by Austria, and an armistice has been concluded. We trust that the joint mediation of England and France will secure peace. The late Chartist rows, and the murder of the Ashton poli ce- man, seem to be shrouded in much mystery. We prefer waiting until a more convenient season before offering any remarks on events, which we fear have resulted from a very unsuspected quarter. But above all considerations the state of the weather now ex- cites the most serious apprehensions. From all parts of the coun- try, the accounts are most gloomy and disheartening; the potato blight also proves to be malignant and wide-spread. The conse- quences undoubtedly in Ireland, and among our own population, cannot fail to be disastrous.

THE NORMAL COLLEGE FOR WALES. WE should ill discharge our duty to the Normal College and the public, if we permitted the letter of the Rev. Daniel Davies, of Swansea, to J. H. Vivian, Esq., M. P., which ap- pears in another column, to go forth without entering our emphatic protest against its sophistical reasonings, unfounckjcL. assumptions, and mischievous tendencies. Though we feel ■. grieved that the name of Mr. Davies is appended to such a communication, yet on account of Free Education we rej oicc, that it is;so. If a man of his penetration and ability has net- stronger pleas to urge for State education, the prospect of" that monster hypocrisy must indeed be dismal. Mr. Davies is anxious to prevent the Normal Collere froni, being identified with the voluntary principle for ever. The' rev. gentleman does not like the idea of precluding the pos-. sibility of applying for State aid. Such a provisiori he some- what uncharitably pronounces to be the infallfhUit^ andJi- nality .oi the beast," which is so inimical to all civjd anC reli'J-ious freedom^ His own plan, to be sure, in ntfither in™ fallible nor final. He would allow the College managers to n ZD be a tribe of chartered libertines," with fullpowcl's to bar- gain with the State whenever whim or conceit may per-, suade them that such an arrangement may favour either; their pockets or prejudices. Mr. Davies assumes that the resolution of September last. was passed by less than one third of the then subscribers, without the consent and in opposition- to the convictions of" the other two-thirds. A very emphatic monosyllable will at once serve to give its quietus to this triumphant flourish. —it is simply NO. If Mr. Davies doubts our denial, we in-a vite him to prove his assertion. In June, 1846, the disc-UB- sion on State aid as adjourned, simply because the feeling of the meeting was so decided against it. It was well known, that the meeting of September, 1847, was to decide the question. Fifteen months had passed since the adjourn- ment of the debate-the subject was eagerly and ably dis- cussed in the Welsh periodicals, and it was well known that of all places in Wales Brecon was most conspicuous for its State aid leanings. Yet at this meeting, held in the strong- hold of the Government men, after due notice had bQi-i.. given, when it was well known fhat the question w as to be, decided, there was not a single- subscriber, present who ut- tered a solitary word or thought it worth while to hold up his hand against a resolution irrevocably pledging the insti- tution to the voluntary principle! True it is that two or three gentlemen from Brecon, and two or threeW esleyan: ministers, entered the room some time afterwards, when the discussion was most irregularly re-opened by one of the Brecon gentlemen, but the attempt to produce a reaction, most signally and decisively failed. What then becomes of. Mr. Davies's fundamental assumption? Mr. Davies next assumes, that Welsh Dissenters are too poor to support the Normal College. To this our only reply is, prove it. Do not deal in reckless assumptions without, some reasonable data. The rev. gentleman very wellkocws- that he flatters the indolence of many of our congregations by telling them of their poverty. We venture however to say that if all Dissenting Church members at Swansea and; within ten miles to the town, would devote what they now. pay for tobacco to the interest of the Normal College, its income would far surpass Two Thousand pounds. We could disclose some telling facts on this point but we prefer With-* holding them for the present. The idea that the poverty of in the great bulk of the people of Wales is a barrier to their education is really a groundless dream. Poverty indeed when one town pays 470,000 per annum; for intoxicating drinks, and £ 48,000 to one dealer in tobacco during the same period! What we want is moral elevation andnot State aid., We also beg to remind Mr. Davies that whatever may 1xt the opinions of the Welsh sects on State Education in the .abstract, that the majority of them are fully convinced that the voluntarg is the only practicable principle for the sup- port of the Normal College. The Wesleyans have acquiesced in it. The Welsh Methodists in a very few days after the passing of the resolution of September, 1847, determined to give their support. The Independents have hailed the de- cision at almost every conference held ever since, and the Baptists have not been slow to give their assistance. True these denominations are more or less divided on the propria, ety of receiving aid for day schools and the .purposes of general education; but as the support of the Normal College, where religious instruction is to be given, would devolve. upon them in their corporate capacities, .they,-can.,w&rm dream of receiving Government grants without admitting the principle of State support to religion. In the name of common sense, what difference can there be in principle between tencWDg-l-t fuJrtithe desk and teaching it from thtt pulpit? The whole matter is so preposterously absurd a*, > not to admit of serious argument. Mr. Davies very well knows that there are thousand* ot Dissenters in Wales that will never ftppört the Govern- mcnt system, and if he wishes to deprive the Normal Col- lege of their assistance, he has only to draw on his great powers of imagination to frighten M.: Viyian and other beiievolelit individuals at Swansea, with the desolating pros- pects of. a College without Government aid, and get them to agitate for it. How specious is the appeal! How pite- ous is the crY I HYour own liberality, "the "hard ings of your honest workmen, are line and high-sound- ing claptrap expressions, but we must bear iu niind that the libera-lity of persons in more strai^tei|e4

turned right arid left on the potatoes,; thus securing them from the frost, and when the •Vsreather.was likely to be severe, he would cover over with straw (fern is best) such space as he thought would be wanted, in order to render the digging of them easier. Deponent believes that, if persons having ground to spare would adopt the same plan they will pre- serve their potatoes in a, wholesome state for use; for it is well known that anything having a tendency to decompo- sition, when exposed to the air soon perishes, whereas if left in the ground itkeepsperfect.A lVelshman, August 5.