Welsh Newspapers

Search 15 million Welsh newspaper articles

Hide Articles List

11 articles on this Page

.----GBEAT POLITICAL DEBATE…

News
Cite
Share

GBEAT POLITICAL DEBATE AT HOLYWELL. [FROM OUR OWN BBPORTBR.] The mos, successful public dfbate held in Holywell within the recollection of its p esent inhabitants was held on Thursday evening last at the Board Schools, Halkyn-stieet. Some three months ago a debate took place at the Flint Town Hall between the chosen representatives of the Flint and Holywell Debating Societies, at which Mr J. L. Muspratt presided, in the absence of Mr S. K. Muspratt, the president of the Flint Society. The meeting on Thursday evening ^<as the return debate between the two societies, when four gentlemen had been selected to represent each society :—Messrs J. W. M. Evans, J. Hall, T. Taylor, J. Slann, of Flint, and the Rev 0. Thomas, B.A.; Dr E. Owen-Price, Messrs J. Campbell Douglas and W. redr Williams, of Holywell. The subject was, Is Mr Gladstone's Government worth preserving" The interest of the gathering was augmented to a considerable degree by the fact that Mr P. P. Pennant, Nantllys, who contested the Flint Boroughs in the Conservative interest on the occasion of the last genenl election, and who is the president of the Holywell Debating Society, had very kindly p-o-nised to preside. Tue room was crowded by an excited and respectable audience, every seat in the spacious room being occupied at half-pass seven. Besides the president there were also on the platform Mr S. K. Mnspratt, Flint: Dr S. Williams, Castle-hill Mr P. Mwyndeg Evans, and the debaters. Amongst the audience we noticed the following: Mr H. A. Cope, Saithaelwyd; Mr J. Ll. Price and Mrs Price, Pandre House; Mr R. Baldwin and Mrs Baldwin, Green-hill; the Rev D. Oliver and Mrs Oliver; Mr R. H. Smedley, Perth-y-terfyn; Capt. Dyson, Messrs E. J. Hughs, S. T Edwards, T. W. Hughec; aad several gentlemen from Flint; Messrs R. E. Williamson aad W. Williamson; Mr G. Maelor Evans, Mr John Carman, and Mr John K. Evans; Mr 3. Garner, chairman of local board; the Misses Pugh, Pen-y-maes; Mr W. T. Pierce, and the Misses Foulkes. Bagillt; Capt W. T. Harris, Messrs Leigh Howell and David Owen, Bryn- hyfryd; the Rev J. Pugh, B.A., and several other well-known ladies and gentlemen. Mr P. P. Pennant, upon rising to address the meeting, was greeted with loud applause. He said that it would be imprudent on his part to occupy much of the time that evening, but he might be allowed to express his opinion that the advantages of such societies were inestimably great. The power of addressing an audience was a power with difficulty attained, yet a power which such societies did much to foster and develop. It would often strike them as a strange fact that they might meet with many young men, and old men also, who at the fireside could conveise brilliantly and easily upon a vast number of subjects, yet when brought face to face with an audience all fluency and ease immediately disappeared, and the best they could do was to stammer out a few sentences ia halting style. What was the cause of this ? It was the lack of practice. And in this a debating society excelled, inasmuch as it furnished an admirable opportunity for practising the art of speaking. The object of the art was persuasion. All style, matter, and elo- quence were mere servants of the one great object —to persuade men. And that man who could so arrange his facts, and so handle his arguments, as to convince others that what ha said was truth was in reality the true speaker. Mr W. Pedr Williams, in opening the debate in the affirmative, said they had met there to discuss whether one hand they were willing to return to the old policy of secret agreements and open agression, the policy which embarassed the finances of the empire, harassed our trade and industry, and threatened every day to involve Ul) in calamity and disaster, or whether on the other hand they were willing to support a policy, which had introduced a general sense of tranquility and confidence, and a Government which had been more united on the main principles which should dictate its action than any other Government presented with questions of equal magnitude and equal complexity. In foreign matters, Montenegro, through the exertions of the present Government, had received an accession of territory which for years it had justly claimed. Greece had received Thessally without a single drop of blood being shed. Our relations with Turkey and Russia were now entirely altered, and the Egyptian question had been dealt with effectually. In Afghanistan, instead of being as Sir F. Roberts had described ms, the objects of the bitter and determined hatred of every Afghan, our rulers h?d brought about a state of tranquility and confidence, and the Afghan was now the master of his own country. In South Africa, the Zulu war was terminated. In the Transvaal, the annexation of which, on the misrepresentations of our officials had proved such a fruitful source of anxiety and trouble, an unj ust and sanguinary war had ceased in consequence of the moral courage and just resolution of the I Government. Coming to Ireland, the speaker said that the hateful necessity of resorting to coercive measures naa Deen effectually in prevent- ing the increase of outrages, and in triumphantly asserting the sup emacy of law and order over aa organized tyranny. That was not all, for the present Premier, with stnrdy and unflinching manliness, with all the resources of profound statesmanship, had dealt a blow at the cause of Irish discontent which would resound gloriously and effectually through all the history of that now unhappy country. Besides the Irish question two other great difficulties confronted the Government, extraordinary obstruction, and^ the Bradlaugh difficulty. He maintained that the Oppoaition were responoible for the latter difficulty. The position of the Government was well defln«d in the words of Sir George Gray in 1866, ««We will make no inquiry into any man's religious oonvictions, let the constituencies be the judges of that The position of the Opposition was that the debauchee, the drunkard, the blear-eyed blackguard who had defamed his name, might enter the house and legislate forthe country. But if a man had a puzzled head, instead of a depraved heart, if a man had a mind tempest-tossed with mysteries which have staggared the best and finest of men, then he was to be branded as a political leper, and shut out from the possibility of entering Parliament. He rejoiced to think that they had a Prime Minister brave enough to bid defiance to the black fiend of theoio £ ita malice, and the contemptible spirit of abhorrent bigotry, and who took his stand, with unsur- passable magnanimity, on the great principle d religions equality. Would they accede to the ruin of the ablest Government of modern time" because it sought to put a limit to the insane babbling ot Mr Biggar and the ridiculous waggeries of Mr Warton? In conclusion th" speaker said: Often is the Liberal party taunted for its lack of unity. Unity, sir! Why, has tint tnity so soon been forgotten which in 1880 hurled Beaconsfield from power and laid the peico with honour standard in the dust? Why, th, same unity is still alive, 81ld the same Uúitv s still ready, utterly to annihilate all opposition, and to demonstrate to the world that a Liberal Government and no other can*or shall guide the deitiniea of the British Empire. The British electors are still true, I believe, to Mr Gladstone With honest heart-felt ^emotion they thh>k of tha splendour of his services and the purity of his principles. Never was the Liberal par:.y so proud 0t him as now, when, with the irresistible fire of youth, and the calmness of age, he stands forth more grandly than ever to crush the wrong and to for the right. His enemies may thwart him worthless critics may mock him and audacious mediocrity may try to cheapen his greatness. But the one, earnest, solemn, unalterable deter- mination of the Liberal party is to keep Mr Glad stone in power as long as God may spare him. Mr J. W. M. Evans, Flint, in opening for the negative, a.id that they must lirst look at home, I and he was willing that the question as to whether the Government was worth preserving should ot- decided by its effect upon home trade. He would ask tradesmen whether their business had in- creased. He would ask agriculturists, were they better off ? The latter class, in fact, were simply worse oS; and now foreign malt was allowed to be sold in this country without any tax thereon, thereby ruining English producers By the promises made by the present Government before chey came into power one would have thought they intended to work wonders and quite enrich everybody. However, he would appeal to each person illy, had they not been woefully disap- pointed ? Referring to the Bradlaugh question, he denied that the Opposition were responsible for the difficulty. The Opposition had shown by their actions that they had no sympathy whatever w th the principles of Bradlaigh, which could not be said of the other side. He felt that this was a most important matter. The downfall of many nations had been proceeded by adeserti n from their God, and they fell, and England would also fall if she deserted her God. Mr Gladstone had refused to move in the matter of the attacks upon Jews in Russia. When the victims were Bulgarians he was loud iu condemning the attro- cities then, but now they were Jews, who were our own flesh and blood, he refused to inferfere. With regard to the Transvaal, he (the speaker) said that all there was shame and disgrace. The indignity offered to the British flag had been calmly passed by, and the prestige of England had suffered in the &ight of the world. Why, one would think from the previous speech the Boers were the most tender aud magnanimous people existing. Why, there did not exist greater tyrants under the sun The Boers had no more Tight in the Transvaal than we had. He could not help smiling at the present Government proferring for the acceptance of Parliament lule8 for quelling obstruction. Why, Ch imberlain, and others of the Government, ha1. been the greatest obstruetives in the house. The nation would not suffer their liberties to be invad- ed, least of all the liberties enjoyed by their representatives in tl\e House of Commons, and he condemned the Cloture as doing this. He did not believe that half the Liberal party were^agrccable to that rule, only that Mr Gladstone held a threat of dissolution over thdr heads, and they were afraid to meet their constituents. Even the Liberal party could only be frightened into voting for the G.oture. He condemned' the present Government as not worthy of preservation. Mr Slann, Flint, said that there might be some weak-kneed Liberals who would-be led away by the clap-trap of Lord Salisbury, such as in his recent effusion to a society of Conservative working men stating that Mr Gladstone is doing all in his power to destroy jail constitutional principles That letter of Lord Salisbury showed that a man might possess a historic name and be a hereditary legis Jator, without possessing some of the most essential attributes of a gentleman. He believed that the present Cabinet was the best they had had for a century, and if they compared each individual member of the Ministry with their immediate predecessors in the various offices they would find that they towered head and shoulders above them in the knowledge of good government. When the Liberals were returned to power, it became their duty to reverse the policy of vainglory abroad and of hypocrisy at home which Lord Beconsfield had initiated. In Affghanistan, were it was done at once,'it proved an unmixed blessing both to India and England. The accounts of the English and Indian treasury had been left in such an inextricable state of confusion that it required the genius of a Gladstone to balance them and bring them into such a state that they could be under- stood by the people. The Tory policy at present was nothing but a malignant hatred of Mr Gladstone. When in office the Tories had done absolutely nothing. But we had a Hares and Rabbits Bill, the Burials Bill, and that magnificent measure-the Irish Land Bill, all of which were bitterly opposed by the Tory party, and a reform in procedure was absolutely necessary. Spain, Portugal, and Norway were the only continental countries in which the principle of the Closure was not in force. The new-born zeal for freedom of speech was passing strange from the party which gagged jthe native press of India and Cyprus, and prevented newspaper correspondents from going with our army into Affghanistan. The Tories did not want an adequate reforai'of pro- cedure, because they were opposed to reform. Just as before 1832 the Tories declared that the system of government then in force was the best that human ingenuity could devise, so now it declared that everything that actually existed was 60 perfect as need no alteration. Mr J. 0. Douglas remarked that th1 numerous misconceptions which people were led into with reference to the Bradlaugh difficulty rendered them incapable of appreciating the real point at issue. Mr Bradlaugh had declared that the oath I to him was a meaningless form, yet afterwards ho announced his willingness to take it. The British Parliament, had refused to allow him, and justly too. He condemned the Irish policy of the Government. In his famous letter to the Diike of Marlborough Lord Beaconsfield had pointed out in words of solemn warning the dangerous condition of Ireland. Yet, at the same time, Mr Gladstone asserted that Ireland was never more peaceful. Very soon the truth of Lord Eeacons- field's warning was seen by the present Govern- ment, for misery and outrages sprang up in all directions. By their dilatoriness in enacting coercive measures the Government were respon- sible for the fearful state of things in Ireland. A Land Act had been passed, if it was the magni- ficent measure which it had been styled, why should the Government fear inquiry into its working ? The act, in reality, was a measure of robbery and confiscation. It enriched the tenants at the expense of the landlords. It was impossible that it should be as effectual as its promoters had promised. They were told that 100,000 occupiers intend to take advantage of it. Why there were 550,000 occupiers in Ireland, and before all could apply to the court 100 years would have passed. He condemned the action of the Government ;n appointing a gentleman who was solicitor to the Land League to be the solicitor of the Land Court. The Government ought to have suppressed the league with more promptness and efficacy. But no, they would not. Why ? Because the Govern- ment wanted to pass the Land Bill. Finally, ho disagreed with the Cloture because its object wa9 to pass Government measures with- out full and free discussion. Mr T. T&ylor, Flint, said that he would challenge 6 v j *n ^e civilized world a Government which had committed so many blunders, and wasted so much time as the present Government. 1 hat Gladstone should have introduced the Cloture, rhe veryman who had condemned it in Nineteenth, Century • f Lord Beaconsfield bad proposed the Cloture it uld have been condemned in a uaand pulpits and platforms. Th Consuvative party h&d th o jects in view—they venerated old institutions, ^LirtfiSPe<e? sovereign, they maintained the national rel-?10a, (jladstone now condemned obstruction, but it was Gladstone and his friends that ga^ e Pari MI8?'•others lessons in obstruction. The good, indeed Why Ireland was now ^ever ? The landlords were wor.e off than ever. Theyheard a deal about Irish rents y were only half English rents r I* a land bdl iwas neces. eary for Ireland, it was necessary for England and Scotland too. What was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander. Gladstone was very clever, but clever to create mischief. The Liberals con- demned war, but during the present century they had waged more wars than the Conservatives. In conclv.si -u, lie said that with all his heart he con- demued a Government which had brought the honour o old England to the dust. The Rev Owen Thomas, B.A., did not think it fair to ju-ige the whole trade of a country by the trade of this locality or that, as one previous spf iker tal done Let them look at the grent ii:.iiidtri'a dt the country, and they would at once find thwt these were beyond doubt reviving. UtiC speaker a so bad made the somewhat astounding observat on th*t the Liberal Governments had DO I foreign policy. All he had to say to that was,- it would have been betterjforjthecountry and better fir the world if the Conservatives had no foreign policy either Too much had been made out of the vjloti're. t meant that the majority must rule, aud not be tyramzed over by a minority. Not a single argument had been adduced against this power of closing a debate. If, by means of the Cloture,f oreign Parliaments were enabled to enact useful leg'slation, why should we not examine whether we c.,Uld inot adopt some simular plan. Why sho ild wilful obstruction be allowed any longer? Many of the lablest members of the House of Commons were complaining that they were doomed to perpetual silenee by the unceasing persistenc y of a few. He yielded to none in his admiration for liberty, but when that liberty WHS abused, and when men refused to li-teu to the demands of decorum and common sense, when that liberty became license, it was time to extinguish Icquacity in a more summary manner. With regard to Ireland, he entirely dissented from 11K: remark which had been made that Ireland was worse off than ever. Why the accounts invested in Savings Banks, and other kindred institutions, proved the contrary. He was astonished to find the Premier spoken of in the reckless fashion some orators had indulged in. In conclusion, Mr Thomas said Surely, sir, does not half a century of political life count for something. Can we not rely upon this unrivalled statesman? Can we not trust to the greatest financier f modern or ancient times ? The very name of Mr Gladstone sends a thrill of momentary energy into the most inert soul. Attd though he is pa^t the age of man, though he bears the weight of seventy years, though his hair is white with the snow of many a winter, still his eye is not dim, nor his natural force abated, and as he stands ht the helm and pilots the ship of state, let us hope that when the division comes this evening, which threatens the existence of the Ministry, that he will be supported by a triumphant majority. Dr E. Owen Price was anxious that it should be understood that no one could be more desirous than himself to give Mr Gladstone's Government credit for sincerity of purpose. It was its in- capacity he condemned to carry on the affairs of this great nation in an honourable and dignified manner to a successful and prosperous issue. Their action in the Transvaal proved this In the Queen's Speech, 1881, it was stated that there had been a rising, and the authority of the Queen must be asserted. The British arms suffered three successive reverses. Now was the time for Mr Gladstone to carry out what he had pledged him- self to iu the address from the throne. But what was done? After having been defeated, the Government came to believe with Mr Peter Kylands that it would be better to negotiate an honourable peace. And so the rising, caused main- ly by the inflammatory speeches of Midlothian, culminated in peace with dishonour, by granting tLe Boars independence, by retaining what was called a suzerainty, but what was in reality a farce In Ireland again, the coercive policy was adopted too late. The result of this neglect was that in Ireland they had anarchy and disorder. Even if the Land Act were a beneficial law, which he denied, it would be no use in the present state of the country, and was now a pitiable failure. In conclusion he said: This Gladstone Ministry, the advent of which was heralded by the Liberal resurrection trumpet of Midlothian, came into power, filled brimlul of promises for the Irish people. I might say, if you will pardon the extraordinary figure, they came as a white summer cloud over a thirsty land to rain abundant blessings upon the unhappy people of Ireland. But we find this bright cloud of promise changed. It has become a threatening coppery storm cloud, and, instead of blessings, it emits thunder and lightning, the thunder and lightning of coercion. The rattle of musketry and the gleam mingling with the wail of discontent is heard and seen all around. And high abova all the din the voice of the Pime Minister is heard pro- claiming a message of peace. And behold.' out of the cloud descends a piece of parchment! It is the Irish Land Act. But it becomes scorched and shrivelled by passing through the fiery atmosphere of coercion, and of no more value is it than so much burnt tinder scroll. Such has been the con- duct of the Government at home and abroad that it is not worth preserving. A vote ot thanks was moved to the chairman by Mr W. Jones, seconded by H. Hamer, and unanimously and heartily voted. A call of "Three 7 cheers for the President" was lustily responded 1 to. Mr Pennant replied in most appropriate terms. A vote of thanks to Holywell and Flint Societies was passed on the motion of Mr Owen Jones, seconded by Dr James Williams, and responded to by Mr S. K. Muspratt. After the National Anthem had b.een united in, the large assembly dispersed.

WELSH BURIAL SCANDALS.

FEARFUL COLLISION AT SEA.

THE CONVICT LAMSON. -

----THE STATE OF IRELAND.

Advertising

SALTNEY.--I

RHYL.

MOLD.

I CONWAY.

[No title]