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2IIt. RHODE'S CROSS-EXA-XINED-

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2IIt. RHODE'S CROSS-EXA- XINED- CLOSELY QUESTIONED ON THE IWAID. The Select Committee on South African Affaire, with special reference to the adminis- tration of the Chartered Company, held its second Hitting on Friday afternoon in the Com- itiasicn-hali at Westminster. Owing to the fact that Mr. Cecil Rhodes was again under examination keen interest was again taken in the occasion. If there had been admission to the public the vast area. of Westmineter-hall itself would! not have been more than sufficient to accommodate the crowd who would have desired to be present. There was, however, no space in the Committee-room for any except the limited and privileged few who had direct business, and for suoh members of either House of Parliament as desired to be present. The members of the Committee came in from the ante-room at 12.15, a.nd Mr. Rhodes, being at cxjce called by the CSiairman, took his sea-t at the witnesses' table, and the Chairman inti- mated that Sir William Haroourt would re- sume his cross-examination. Mr. Rhodes (interposing): I willh, Mr. Chair- man, to make a. statement before Sir William Harcourt continues. I notice that en Tuesday J. stated I had never seen a Mr. Holder or Holden. It has been brought to my recollac- I tion that five or six months before the raid a Mr. Holden passed through Cape Town and came to my house. To the best of my recol- lection I had no conversation with him upon this matter. I may also say that I think we broke off upon a question in which I asked for time to consider. Whether the word "chair- man" meant Sir Hercules Robinson Sir W. Harcourt: I am just coming to that, Mr. Rhodes, if you don't mind mv putting one or two questions first of all. You will find on Page 230 in the appendix to the Blue-Book this teiegram, which I wish to call your atten- tion to, dated December 2L It is from Harris to Colonel Rhodes, at Johannesburg—"A. Beit has telegraphed to Lionel Phillips last night to urge instant flotation of a new company. You must see it worked. Reply when you can float, in your opinion, so that I may advise Dr. Jameson." FIXING THE INSURRECTION. Am I right in concluding from this that 8It that time the exact date for the insurrection had not been settled, and that he desired that it should be settled at Johannesburg, so that you might advise Dr. Jameson? Witness: The whole of that matter was left in the hands of the Johannesburg Committee. Sir W. Harcourt: Very well, and when they had settled that matter you would advise Dr. Jameson? Witness: They would have communicated to Dr. Jameson- Sir Wm. Harcourt: The answer to that seems to have been, as far as I can make out, from Colonel Rhodes to you (December 21): — "Please inform C. J. Rhodes that it is stated that the chairman will not leave, unless special I letter inviting him. Definite assurance has been given by all of us that on the day of flotation you and he will leave. There must absolutely be no departure from this, as many subscribers have agreed to take shades on this assurance." You asked time to consider what you would say upon that telegram? Mr. Chamberlain: Pardon me. Looking at the date, I find the first telegram was handed in at 12.56, an-d the second, which you have suggested was an answer, was handed in. at 12.57, so that it could not be an answer. Sir W. Harcourt: It is rather an answer to the telegram from Harris. Mr. Pember, Q.C.: I do not think the hour will suit that, either. DID "CHAIRMAN" MEAN SIR HERCULES ROBINSON? Sir W. Harcourt then repeated the question as to whether "chairman" meant Sir Hercules Robinson (Lord Rosmead). Witness: I thought it was right that I should think the matter over. I may state to the Com- mittee that I had no difficulty in answering any questions ae to my own personal action. I have replied as plainly as I can in relation thereto, and will supplement it upon cross- examination. My difficulty hae been in my replies when some of the details have been left to others. At the same time, I do not wish to evade responsibility. The difficulty has been that anything I say should affect the interests or position of other parties. Now, with reference to this cable or telegram, the "chairman" referred to is certainly the High Commissioner. I had great difficulty in answer- ing that question, but after I had left the other day a certain cable was pointed out to me in the Btkne Book which quite frees me, in my own judgment, in answering. I refer, the members of the Committee to the Imperial Blue Book called "Recent Disturbances in the South African Republic," pappe 2. The telegram pointed out is as follows, "I learn on good authority that the movement has collapsed, owing to internal division, and the leaders of the national move- ment will make the best terms they can with President Kruger." This shows very clearly that the High Commissioner does not deny that, as far as Johannesburg was concerned, he was perfectly aware of the position there. This is sent two days before the raid. I would poirrfc out to the Committee that they must separate from their minds the knowledge of the raid and knowledge of the position of the people at Johannesburg. Sir W. Harcourt: It was sent one day after the raid. Witness: It was received on the day after- wards. Sir William Hawourt called the attention of the witness to a dispatch from Sir Hercules Robinson to Mir. Chamiberlain on Page 37 of the Bitue Book. Mr. Rhodes Following that, I feel I am justi- fied in making a statement 8A to what passed between Sir Heroulep Robinson and myself. I had many conversations with the High Com- missioner as to the position at Johannesburg. My view was that they intended to obtain their rights and to bring about a change, constitutionally if possible, but. if not, by un- constitutional means. I discussed that often with the High Commissioner, and I remember clearly that on one occasion be asked me what I thought he should do in the matter. I said I considered he should proceed to Johannesburg at once if there was a rising, end to mediate between the revohjtionittia and President Eniger. doing his best to oibtain for the people their civil rights. I gathered from him that that was the ocrurse he intended to pursue. A CTjEAN BREAST. Mr. Pope Q.O. (interposing), said that Mr. Rhodes, whom he advised and represented, was there for the purpose of making a clean breast of all his own actions with regard to the whole of this matter, but he was not prepared, and ought not to be compelled, to convert himself into a hostile witness againat others. Mr. Rhodes asked shelter under no man, but he ought not to be compelled to turn, himself into an accuser of others. Sir William Harcourt said this appeal was at thatt moment quite unnecessary. The Chairman said the point urged by Mir. Tope might better be left over until it actually arose. The evidence Mr. Rhodes had been giving was given under the shelter of authority, an excuse which in the view of witness, justified what he said. Mr. Rhodes said he was protected by no bill of indemnity, and he did not care for that for himself, but he did not think he should be forced to give answers and to drag in the names of third parties. Sir William Haroourt: I entirely accept that view. You apparently thought after your conversations with Sir Hercules Robinson, that you were entitled to give the pledge which the people of Johannesburg required, that he would go there if an insurrection took place. Witness: I gathered that from the answers he gave me as to the course he should pursue, and that is exactly the course he did take. Did you tell him that you were yourself actively employed in promoting the insurrec- tion?—Oh, dear no. The pledge was that you should promise the presence of Sir Hercules Robinsoi a* an induce- ment or on tihe insurrection taking place?— Witnesses from Johannesburg oan better tell what the position ?nd understanding was at that place. The people there wanted to know whether the Governor would go there in the event of a rising, and my judgment vras that he would. That was an inducement to them to bring about what is called the flotation ?—That is not so, but you can get that reply bettar from the people themselves. The revolution in Johannes- burg might have been merely a defensive one, without a shot fired, and the Go^rnment could have mediated as to the granting of civil rights. Judging by the various telegmns which passed, it seemed to be arranged ihat the insur- rection was to take place on the Saturday night ai twelve o'clock, and that Dr. Jaaaeaoa. should not start before eight o'clock, and that he was to secure telegraph office silence, which meant cutting the wires? Many of these details I was iot acquainted with, as the telegrams were from Johannes- burg. But these were your orders from Cape Town ? Mr. Pember: Thye simply passed through Cape Town. Witness: I don't desire to evade responsi- bility. I knew broadly what was going to happen, but not all the details. The Com- mittee must remember I was Prime Minister of the Gape, manager for the Chartered Ctmpany, with all its developments, chairman of the De Beers Company, with a capital r.f twenty- millions, and chairman of a company 0: eight, millions in the Grokifields, so that very many things came before me. I broadly sanctioned this matter, but was not able TO go into all the details. If some of my answers seem eva- sive it is not because I desire to shirk respon- sibility, but because I don't remember particu- lar telegrams. Sir Wm. Harcourt: I did not suggest that you were evading responsibility. Mr. Rhodes: But I have been told that I am not sufficiently frank. In reply to further questions, witness said Dr. Jameson was very anxious to move. and many of the telegrams urged upon him the desirableness of delay. In the telegram of the 26th of December, saying it was "absolutely necessary to postpone flotat::>u until we have C. J. Rhodes's absolute pledge that authority of Imperial Government will not be insisted upon." What was the, meaning of the letter phrase? Witness: I thought there should be a plebis- cite, and that when a. change was made the people should themselves decide what should be their future Government. My :dea was for Federal Union. I thought it_ possible that local questions of railways, tariff, justice. &c., plight still be dealt with under the Republic, but that for other matters there might be a federal assembly. You may be sure I was not going to risk my position to change President Kruger for President J. B. Robinson. (Laugh- ter.) Why was the suggested postponement of the insurrection considered so serious a matter that the words are added in the telegram, "Too awful; very sorry"? That was one of the telegrams I did not send myself. Did you understand that it was the inten- tion of Dr. Jameson to start from Mafeking, even if the people at Johannesburg declined to rise?—You had better ask Dr. Jameson that. Sir W. Harcourt: Do you put it to me that you are speaking of yourself when you say "all our foreign friends are now dead against it, and say they will not subscribe a penny to- wards it?" Witness: In this case the "foreign friends" were the Johannesburg people. That is clearly 80. Further cross-examined with regard to Dr. Jameson's movements depending upon "what Captain Healy said," it was a popular error that Mr. Healy never came to him at Cape Town before going on to Mafeking. Healy was merely an agent. The whole thing de- pended upon the messages from Johannesburg. As to Dr. Jameson's message from Pitsani that he had received a telegram through Healy, and, unless he heard definitely to the contrary, would carry into effect a. second telegram, he prdferred that the doctor himself should be questioned upon that. Sir Wm. Harcourt: But does not that con- vey to your mind that unless Dr. Jameson beard definitely to the contrary from you he would go on? Witness i Yes, but I think if I am right you will get that from Dr. Jameson. The tele- gram did not come until the Sunday, and then the wires were cut. You will gather that from Harris and Dr. Jamecon. Mr. Pember, Q.C.: It was proved in the trial at bar that the first telegram and that of the 29th of December were delivered at one and the same time. Witness: I don't know, but I think that was 150. Mr. Pember: It was proved. Sir W. Haroourt: Was it ever suggested to you that Dr. Jameson should go to Pretoria, and not to Johannesburg? I don't think so. All I understood was that Dr. Jameson would go on to Johannesburg if required by the people. AN IMPORTANT POINT. Did you never hear Pretoria suggested as an alternative?—It might have been suggested, but my view always was that he should go direct to Johannesburg, but I would not say "yes" or "no." I am very doubtful about it. Sir Williaim Harcourt remarked that it was an important point, as to which was regarded as the best destination. Mr. Pope, Q.C., thought with great respect that aa a matter of interpretation, Mr. Rhodes ought not to be examined upon it. Sir William Harcourt repeated the question, and Mr. Rhodes reiterated his answer, adding: "I don't see the importance of it." Sir W. Harcourt: You must excuse me in seeing the importance of it. because it is a matter of tlha difference between assisting an insurrection at Johannesburg and making a direct attack on Pretoria). Witness: I do not think it was ever discussed between us, although some of the officers might have discussed it. Sir William Harcourt proceeded to cross- examine the witnes3 upon a statement made in a speech by the Colonial Secretary in the House of Commons on February 13 last year. Sir William quoted from the words, "There waa a. constitutional agitation going on which might sooner or later end in a serious disturbance." Mr. Chamberlain i I wiah to interpose here. Should not I be examined. and not Mr. Rhodes, upon my own speech: (Laughter.) I did not base my statements on anything that had passed between Mr. Rhodes and myself. THE RHODES-CHAMBERLAIN CHAT. Witness: When I saw Mr. Chamberlain we avoided all matters connected with what had occurred in so far as Dr. Jameson's raid was con- cerned. Turning to the right hon. gentleman: I think Mr. Chamberlain will support me when I state that his remarks were almost entirely directed to the situation at Johannesburg, and as to what course the Government should take. Mr. Chamberlain: I did not feel justified in subjecting Mr. Rhodes to any questions as to the circumetancee of the raid, because I knew they would be the subject of inquiry hereafter. Our conversation was devoted to the then existing situation, and to the future situation, Mr. Rhodes (to Sir William Harcourt): Read the speech again. Sir William said he would do so, and accordingly began "There was a constitutional agitation going on," kc. Witness: I don't see how you can say, "A constitutional agitation which might ooner or later end in serious disturbances," because mv view was that they would try to obtain their rights, and that if they failed to get them they would probably, refuse to pay taxes, and that if an attempt was made to compel payment they would resist. Sir W. Harcourt: There was a con- stitutional agitation which might be turned into an agitation which was unconsti- tutional, and I venture to suggest that the pressure which was put at Cape Town upon these people turned a constitutional agitation into an armed insurrection carried out by an armed foroe? Mr. Chamberlain: Then that. Sir Wm. Harcourt, you don't get from my speech. My speech was. of course, a description of the then state of affairs, as I believed it to be, and I pointed out that an agitation which up to a certain point was constitutional and was likely for some time to remain so, was under the pressure of circumstances, and by the inter- vention of Dr. Jameson, turned into an agi- tation which waa unconstitutional. SIR WILLIAM DOES NOT PRESS THE POINT. Sir W. Harcourt: I won't Drees the point further, but that is what I suggest as a fact from the evidence. Mr. Rhodes: What I venture to say is that no men in their senses would risk their lives and property unless they felt deeply, and if people are resolved upon obtaining civil rights and have obtained arms, even in a defensive revolution, I do not see how they can stop. Look at the oases of Italy and of Crete, and Armenia recently. It is difficult to say where constitutional ends and unoon- stitutional begins. Sir William Harcourt next examined Mr. Rhodes ae to the steps whioh he took after Dr. Jameson crossed the border. He asked: When did you come to the conclusion that he had actually gone in? I suppose before you saw Sir Graham Bower? Mr. Rhodes: Yes, on reoeipt of the telegram stating that be would leave that night. The moment you got that telegram you felt sure he had gone inf—Yes. The telegram said: — "Shall leave to-night for the Transvaal." Having reference to the former telegram that silence was to be procured, and the fact that the telegraph wire was cut, was to you sufficient knowledge that he had actually gone in?—What gave me the knowledrrp were the words, "Shall teave to-night for the Transvaal." I see it is stated in the Blue Book, "Sir Graham Bower informed me that Mr. Rhodes had sent for him at eleven o'clock on the pre- vious night to tell him thait Jameson that day had intimated by wire his intention of entering the Transvaal that evening with an armed foroe and then proceeding to Johannesiburg." Mr. Rhodes said he had been endeavouring to communicate with Dr. Jameson stopping such a movement, but found that the wires had been cut. He, however, dung to the hope, as messages had- been sent to Jameson depre- cating intervention, that Jameson might have abandoned his intention. Mr. Rhodes Quite ao. But still you felt sure on the the 29th that he had gone in?—Not quite sure, because Healy had gone round. Healy arrived at Mafeking between three and four on the Sunday morning. You tell me you never learned what message ha delivered ?—I would sooner you got that from Mr. Healy himself. The Chairman: I understand that Mr. Healy was to convey a message from Johannesburg, and not from you ? Mr. Rhodes: Yes. Mr. Pember: The telegram runs "Gould, Adams arrive Mafeking Monday, and Healy, I think, arrives to-night. After seeing him it is you and I must judge of flotation." It was not Jameson alone who was to judge. Sir Wiliam Harcourt: Yes, Mr. Rhodes and Dr. Jameson were to be governed by what Healy said. Mr. Rhodes: I am told that Healy gave a message to stop it, but it will be easy to ask him. The Attorney-General: The gentleman who received the message will also be called. Mr. Pember: My point is that Dr. Jameson did not wait to consult Mr. Rhodes. Mr. Blake: Jameson never communicated to you Mr. Healv's message? Mr. Rhodes: That is so. Sir Wiliiam Harcourt next examined witness as to why he did niot send a message after Jameson on the Sunday, when the wires w-re open, to Pitsani. Mr. Rhodes: It must be remembered that I lived five miles out of Cape Town. Sir William Harcourt: We have had it from Mr. Stephens that when he found he could nwt send the telegram through on the Sunday he never left any message to be forwarded on the Monday, when the wires were open. Mr. Rhodas; That; is what Mr. Stephens •ays- Is not that a remarkable thing in a message of such importance that there should be no directions- or no effort to send the message as soon as the wires opened? Dr, J:uue- son having left on the Sunday, really, as far as the message goes, it was hope- leas to expect to catch him, because he was riding 80 miles a day. It was practically im- possible to catoh him. The only way I could have caught him was to send round by Pretoria as the High Commissioner did. The High Oommitteioner, however, did not ask me to supplement his message. .What opportunity had the High Commis- sioner of asking you to supplement that mes- sage. Did you see the High Commwsto.i« cn £ eA7' 30th ?—No; I stopped at my PREFERRED TO REMAIN AT HIS HOUSE. T ^V0* ^gFed ^,2° ^to I*6 town?— I could do nothing at that moment, and I Preferred to remain at my hous^ TVJ 311 think the whole matter over. th?uL0K n0t receive the official requests from thLk eo rm3SIOMr to *° in?—I don't I3K" i?^?30u2} read 4he oommunica- RW?^Sir.Graham Bower sent to Mr. hun of tbe "riew taken by Mr. CWberiam on the raid and also the -WW He then asked, on th-m a]-i various solicitations to you WW rvt T ycm no* take any measures to Jameson to return?" if u?°dTi.: 7116 « a very «lear one, counfcTJr- The suggestion made by .Mr. Schriener Wa6 ridiculous. The only n ? caught him was the way the fiign Commissioner did, viz., by sending rourd by Pretoria, and the High Commissioner did r.ot aek me to supplement his message. In reply to a further question, Mr. Rhodes said he did not leave his house at the time of the raid, or until he resigned. Sir William Harcourt: But you went to a Cabinet meeting? Witness: The Cabinet came to me. "T You sent the messages to tine South Africa Company in London for hvodays. from December 29 to January 3. Witness: I believe not. Mr. Pember: The cables were blocked by Government messages. Sir W. Harcourt: Thanks for that suggestion. How, then, were you able on December 30 to wire the whole of the Johannesburg letter to the "Tones" ? Witness: I did not see that anything was to be gained by telegraphing to the South Africa Company in London. Wae the event so unimportant, although the man who led the raid was the Administrator of Rhodesia?—Quite so. Perhaps I was wrong, but it did not strike me at the time. AFFECTING THIRD PARTIES. Did yoru make no communication to any person in London in reference to these pre- parations, and to the promotion of the insur- rection at Johannesburg?—I have made com- munications on the question, but I consider that comes within the range of questions thai affect third parties. Sir W. Harooort: You were the principal agent of the Chartered Company in South Africa, using their name, their money, and their men. Did you not make any oommu- nication to them as to the use being made of their name, money, and men in promoting an insurrection? Witness: I made no communication to the Chartered Company in London. Sir W. Harcourt: Or to any of its directors? —I communicated with my agent in London but not with the directors. Sir Wm. Harcourt proceeded to ask the same question with regard to the Duke of Fife, the Duko of Aberoorn, and other directors seriatim, bu-t Mr. Rhodes simply declared: "1 have made my reply." Either directly or indirectly?—I hav. said I had no communications with them, but you had better ask them themselves. I suppose a witness is entitled to make a reply in the language he thinks right and profper Who was the agent in London with whom you did communicate ?—Dr. Harris. Did you tell him substantially what you doing ?—He knew what was occurring Was any information communicated on the subject to Mr. Rochefort Maguire? -I don't know what Dr. Harris may have said to Mr. Maguire. CONFTDfENTIAL TELEGRAMS. In reply to a question, witness declined to assent to the production of certain telegrams which he regarded as confidential. Wu it in your capacity as a Privy Coun- j r that you exercised what you have described' as your right to mass troops with a view to insurrection ?—No. Wall it in your capacity as Prima Minister of the Cape that you claimed the right tjo make the preparations you did make for an insnrrec- tion in Johannesburg, and for its support by an armed force?—No. Was it in your capacity all manager tof the South Africa Company?—No. But as a private individual?—I thought I was doing the best in the interests of South Africa. How had you, as a private individual, apart from ytour position as manager for the South Africa Company, any such right?—Quite true. Sir W. Harcourt: What right had you to do this thing? Witness: In justice to myself, you must re- member that for years I had helped them | when they had no funds-the whole Matabele War, for instance. A SENSATIONAL ANSWER. Sir W. Harcourt: But what right had the Chartered Company to apply *heir resources to what was equivalent to making war upon a friendly State? Mr. Rhodes (after some hesitation): The best answer I can give you is that I cannot defend it. That's all. After a few interrogations as to the con- cessrone'account, Sir William passed on to the subject of the "Times" telegram, "a telegram," said the questioner, "whioh you used to influence the people of Johanneaburg. Those who sent that massacre supporting imnnediate( action, must have known what they were doing—that you were preparing an insurrection and inva- sion. That is the impression thait naturally! arises." Mr. Chamberlain: No. I don't think «o. The telegram does not refer, as I understand it, to invasion, but to the insurrection at Johannesburg. Sir W. Harooort: Weill, I will confine it to that. Mr. Rhodes: Well, that is just the difficulty. There is a case in point: and I do not think I had direct communication with that paper. You say the "Times" ha* telegraphed to you. —I think that waa about the eable, if I re- member rightly. At this stage the Committee again adjourned, Sir William Hanoonirt's cross-examination having closed.

HR. RHODES AGAIN UNDER EXAMINATION.

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