The Cambrian News and Merionethshire Standard

COUNTY COURT fjt1 th JUDGESHIPS. »h>lv 6 °rder of the day for going into Committee of Jj'i00 Priday. George rose to call attention to the recent IKof a County Court judge in Wales. He anything in the nature of a personal attack (if r-if»e6 £ etuleman whose appointment he had to V the manner in which the judge in question 8f°rd), treated all parties coming before his ,n 110 way open t0 comPlaint> but was in a a^iug district, and it was eisential for the Of j-ict ffcharge of the duties of a court in such a Cf. v, the judge should understand the langujjge °P'e with whom he had to deal. The County W?'Dg af. e88eutially the court for the artizan and the Mf. 18ses< t^e majority of these did not io0d English, and carried on all their business peo ^e'sh language. It was an injustice to tlj.& vrj? have to plead their causes before a it not untl°r8tan(^ their language, and ^.fcl-pf0).ptllight be said there was always a competent attached to the Court—and he wished to l^'ly derogatory to these gentlemen—they were ^r°fes8ional gentlemen, whose knowledge of than their knowledge of Welsh, and kn ltl fact, often fail to understand the Welsh V Mej Some interpreters had an exceptional ''its both languages, but these were ex- t^°\vtl g111611) and usually the interpreter had to form ^act'1^118''011 mfcan'ng a witness, so 1JHlly was jhg interpreter who decided the a 9,1111 g upon this matter the House in 1872 intp^O, t res°lution, on the motion of Mr Oeborue °f^le effect that it was desirable, in the due admiuietration of justice, that w°Unty Courts in districts where the Welsh .I18 8poken should, so far as the limits of Un °Wec^' be able to speak and understand the fN>ti0 (Hear.) But the judee to whom iHt reterre(i (Mr Bereeford) had no know ledge and while he was prepared to assert at least half-a-dozen Welsh-speaking if tt ûournnenUy qualified for the position of at least half-a-dozen Welsh-speaking th Oo,,eI!,1!nently qual'fied for the position of r tkfe HoUg iu^ge, he could only say the reaolutmn ^omm°n8 had not been complied with to tj, aPPointment, All classes in VVales were e aPpoiatment—men of all political partiea, anil men who did not hold strong political views, whilst in legal circles it was abo couden.ned, as he showed by a quotation from the Law Times. But he rested his case mainly on the resolution of Match 1872, and urged that the appointment was very like cc ntempt of the House of Commons. He formarly atjo\ ed- That this House, in the interests of the due ad- ministration of ju.tice, and in the face of the resolu- tion of this House of March 8th, 1872, regrets the ap- pointment to a judgeship of a County Court district in which the Welsh language is generally spoken of a gentleman who is unable to speak or understand that language. Mr David Thomas seconded the motion on precisely the same grounds. He repudiated any idea that the Welsh language required these measure* to support it, for it was a language having a strong hold on the people, and it was well able to take care of itself. He did not know what defence would be made, or if any would be attempted, but certainly it could not with truth be asserted, that the district in question was not a Welsh speaking district, and the necessity in official appointments of leuiring a knowledge of Welsh had been recognised in the Mines Act aud Factory Act. More than ever was that knowledge desirable in a judge (,f a County Court, where nearly all suitors spoke Welsh only. Against the other qualifications of Mr Beresford he had not a word to say. He and his friends timply protested against this appointment of a judge who could not <pewk Welsh to a Welsh district in the face of the resolution of 1872. There was ample selection from barristeis on circuit -ind from stipendiary magistrates. Tne Attorney General assured Welsh members that he sympathised to a g: eat extent with their national sentiment, and he had not the slightest intention of depreciating the glory of. the Welsh language, with which he was so unfortunate is to be unacquainted, or to underrate the ability of gentlemen who added that knowledge to their other accomplishments. But before using such teims as contempt of the House of Commons it would be well to recall a few facts in the history of the,e appointments. If there was contempt of the House in such an appointment then it was an offence of which the government of Mr Gladstone had been equally guilty. But indeed the two gentlemen in their stiictures had a little overshot the mark. After the passing uf the resolution referred to the first County Court judge appointed WAS Mr Horatio Lloyd-since Sir Horatio Lloyd-in October, 18S4. A more re- spected and honoured County Court judge never sat on the Banch, but he could otiifek Welsh or do more than understand a very little of it. It was but ten years since the resolution was passed, and a Con- servative Government had just come into office, when this gentleman was appointed upon his merits, and though Sir Horatio Lloyd had constantly been in Welsh speaking districts he was not itWare that there had evt r been a complaint of the conduct of the Court bUeinees based on the fact that the judge did not know Weish. In January, 1878, a very distinguished lawyer, the father of the gentleman referred to in the motion, was appointed. The late Mr B. r. sford never wore a silk gown, but he was one of the most distinguished barristers at the Bar, and for thirteen years he pre- sided over a County Court in a Welsh speaking dis- trict with general satisfaction, and he could speak not Welsh. Next, in February, 1884, when Mr Gladstone was Prime Minister, Mr Stevensou Owen was ap- pointed as County Court judge, he having no know- ledge (,f Welsh. He reminded the House that the re- solution of 1872 had been disregarded by a Liberal Government, of which the right hon member for Eabt Denbighshire (Mr G. 0. Morgan) was a member. He admitted that in 1884 Judge Gwilym Williams, a Welsh speaking judge, was appointed. But when, in July, 1885, Judge Brynmor Jones, another Welsh speaking judge, was appointed for Gloucestershire, there was no remonstrance from the right hon gentle- man upon the appointment of a Welsh speaking judge to a part of the country where Welsh was not spoken. He (the Attorney Geueral) did not pretend that Judge Bore-ford was better qualified to be appointed than any other member of the circuit, but the circumstances we, e unusual. Mr Pereafoi d's fathered been a Coucty Court judge for thirteen years. He suffered from ill- health for some years, and his son acted as deputy w th universal satitfaction to suitors. A large number of thoe who practised before him, and others who could not have been ignorant of the desirability of appointing a Welsh speaking judge, signed a petition in favour of his appointment. He (the Attorney General) had taken some pains, in reference to the agitation got up against the appointment of Judge Beresford, to inform himself as to what happened during the time he sat in his late father's courts. When the question arose of his removal to Derbyshire, or some other Engliuh district, from all sections of polftics and the press came expressions of hope that the learned judge would not be removed. (Cries of No, no," from Welsh members.) He (the Attorney General) was speaking "hat he knew. It was only common fairness to suppose that the Lord Chancellor in making the appointment dealt with the case on its merits. The so-called contempt of the resolution of 1872 had taken place on no fewur than five previous occasions, but he did not argue that Welsh speaking judges in Wales should not be appointed. He fully agreed that they should, but he would point out that repeatedly witnesses who were examined in Welsh answered in English and asked that the questions should be put in English and over and over again interpreters had been found unnecessary, and the case had proceeded in English. He did not say that cases to the contrary did not arxe. Hon members from Wales lid well to press their views on the Lord Chancellor, by whom in future no doubt they would be borne in mind. Mr Osborne Morgan expressed disappointment with the Attorney General's speech. He contended that the resolution of 1872, in the debate in which he re- membered taking part, had once and for all affhmed the desirability of Welsh-speaking judges in Wales. But that question was being treated as a piece of waste paper. It had been said that former Govern- ments had erred in the same wAy, but he must remind the House that two blacks did not make a white. Unless they had in Welsh-speaking districts judges who spoke the language of the people, it was im- possible that perfect confidence could he felt in their administration of justice, which was so desirable. Sir John Puleston said he had been a member of the House between nineteen and twenty years, and during that time the appointment of Welsh-speaking judges for Wales had frequently been before it, and he had always voted in favour of their appointment. The right hon member for East Denbighshire had found it convenient, in view of the facts adduced by the Attorney General, to say this was not a party question. but he would not hesitate to call it one when he got outside the House, and would take care not to explain the want of Welsh patriotism which preluded his calling attention to appointments made in opposition tu hie own resolution. He sat in solemn silence when these jobs, as he called them, were perpretrated by the Government of w'lich he was a member. He (Sir J. Puleston) did not defend the appointment of Judge Beresford at all. On the contrary, he condemned it in the strongest possible way The Lord Chancellor probably did not have in his mind the resolution of the House of Commons passed in 1872, but did have the precedents set by the Liberal Government, and had reason to suppose Mr Beresford's appointment would be acceptable. He was strongly of opinion that the resolution of 1872 should be acted upon, so that Welshmen, all things being equal, should be appointed to Welsh county judge- ships. (Hear, hear). Mr Bowen Rowlands said he approached this ques- tion without the slightest bias in regard to the gentle- man whose appointment was being discussed. He must congratulate the Attorney General upon the admirable tone and temper with which he had dealt with the subject, and his respect for his hon and learned friend induced him to prophesy the very attitude which he had taken on this question, but he must say that in the Attorney General's speech he was unable to select anything like an argument. From first to last the Attorney General admitted with the mover of the resolution th»t a knowledge of the Welsh language was an important element in a County Court judge of a Welsh-speaking district, but he did not point to any distinguishing characteristics on the part of Mr Beresford that would justify his choice in the absence of his inability to speak the Welsh language. (Hear, hear). He (Mr Bowen Rowlands) had the honour of the friendship of Mr Beresford, and he had nothing to say that would give pain to him, but he thought that he (Mr Howen Rowlands) might say that he was acquainted with Welsh barristers quite as capable and quite as competent to fill the office and adorn the position. The Attorney General surrendered the whole case when he admitted that there were Welsh barristers as capable as Mr Beres- ford and he (Mr Bowen Rowlands) should like to hear from some other member of the Government the motive behind this appointment. If previous Govern- ments disregarde 1 the resolution of 1872 he was not responsible, but whether it was the present. Govern- ment or the Government that some of them expected and hoped to see in office before long, he would say that they were not justified in passing over qualified Welsh barristers, and especially when judges were to be appointed in Welsh-speaking districts. (Hear, hear). There had been a reference to Sir Horatio Lloyd, and it seemed to be thought by some that thit judga did not speak the Welsh language. He quite understood the I-anguage, habits and tone of the Welsh people, and he had proved himself a man of great ability, and that he had special qualifications for the discharge of his duties. The Attorney General had instanced the case of Mr Stevenson Owen, the County Court judge of Brecknock, as having surmounted the difficulties of the Welsh language. But the principal and overwhelming duties of this judge were at Cardiff and Newport, which were both large centres of Englith-speaking people. The Attorney General stated there had been a nemorial in favour of Judge Beresford. Weil, he (Mr B. Rowlands) would prefer the open election of a judge to a hole-and-corner appointment by a system of memorials. If there was a memorial in Mr Beresford's favour, that showed that there must have been a feeling in support of his being removed. The Attorney General said he might explain that he spoke from information supplied to him. There had been a correspondence and paragraphs in the news- papers in reference to the appoiutment, and stating that he was going to be removed, and the memorial that had been presented in the judge's favour had been got up in answer to speeches and paragraphs in the newspapers. Mr Bu-ven Rowlands sail he understood the Attorney General in a different sense. There was a strong feeling of dissatisfaction against the appoint- ment, and the Lori Chancellor, considering his con- nection with Wales and his desire to act justly and impartially towards the people, would not have passed fully qualified Welsh barristers if he had not had a strong motive behind this appointment. It had been said that Mr Beresford's father was an excellent County Court judge, but it would be too large an application of the hereditary principles to say that on thih ground this latest appointment should have been made. They all knew how frequently the cause of justice suffered by some judges requiring Welsh witnesses to give their evidence in English when they only knew the language imperfectly. It .seemed as if some over-mastering influence had been brought to bear or the appointment of Mr Beresford would not have been made. By doing so the feeling of the Welsh people, and a. solemn resolution of that House had been disregareel. (Hear, hear). Mr G. Kenyon thought the feeling of the Welsh people as well as their interests should have been con- sulted in this matter, He was a lawyer oimself though he never practised-(laughter)-and he knew the advantage of having a WeUh-sptaking judge on the Bench. The resolution of 1872 should be carried out, not only liti-ra ipssesidma verba, but with the sentiments of the Welsh people, and he trusted that all Governments in the future would act fairly and fully in this spirit. (Hear, hear). Mr Abel Thomas remarked that among the non- Welsh-speaking judges referred to by the Attorney General as having been appointed by a Liberal Govern- ment he alluded to Mr S. Owen. That gentleman was appointed to Mid-Wales, the very place where Mr Cecil Beresford was appointed, but within a month he was moved to his present district simply because he did not understand the Welsh language. He (Mr Thomas) was a member of the South Wales circuit. He knew the members of the circuit, and he could point to the names of six gentlemen, all of them of longer standing than Mr Cecil Beiesford, four of them with infinitely greater work at the Bar and three of them with as great experience. All of these six gentlemen spoke Welsh, and all applied for the appointment, but they were passed over for a gentle- man who could not speak or understand the language. It was absurd to say that this was an appointment upon merits. The Attorney General stated that petitions were received in Mr Beresford's favour, but were they going to have their judges made on petitions by the judge's friends ? (Hear, hear). One knew how easy it was to get up a petition for one's friends of that kind. (Hear, hear). The Attorney General also stated that the appointment had been received with acclamation. The Attorney General I have had copies of news- papers sent to me containing reports to that effect. Mr A. Thomas admitted that that might be the case, but he asked had the right hon gentleman seen other copies of newspapers, of which there were many, containing protests against the appointment ? He had seen injustice done operand over again in small cases owing to ignorance of the Welsh language by the judge who was trying the case. Almost the whole of the cases tried in the Court to which Mr Cecil Beres- ford had been appointed were small cases between persons who did Dot understand the English language. He trusted under the circumstances, they would have a majority when the matter came to be voted apon, and that the House would thereby show it was not going to have its resolutions set aside without any kind cf decent pretext. (Opposition cheers). Mr H. T. Knatchbull-Hugtsson said he should feel it his duty to vote against the Government on this question if it came to a division. (Opposition cheers). Mr S. T Evans observed that it was a curious fact that they were now discussing the appointment of a County Court judge to the very circuit in connection with which the resolution of the House of Commons was passed in 1872. Nobody had been able to deny that this was a Welsh-speaking district with a vast majority speaking Welsh alone. Therefore it could not be said that the appointment was not within the purview of this resolution. It was difficult to under- stand what the case was for such appointment by the Lord Chancellor. They did not attack the Govern- ment at all unless they choose to carry upon their backg the sins of the Lord Chancellor. The appointment was made by the Lord Chancellor. It might not be known to the House generally that the hon member for Devonport would not seek the suffrages of the electors of Devon- port at the next election, and he thought it was very pertinent to the question they were now discussing to know that the hon member was the future candidate for the Tory interest in the Carnarvon boroughs, which was the very centre of the district to which Mr Cecil Beresford had been appointed. Sir John Puleston said he had made his opinions thoroughly well understood on the subject long before the hon member had given any attention to it. Mr Evans (continuing) said the hon member (Sir John Puleston) must know the circumstances of the district round Carnarvonshire. The Attorney General said, following the lead of the hon member who submitted this motion, he declined to discuss the merits of Mr Cecil Beresford. That must not be turned into a suggestion that Mr Beres- ford was not considered the l-est candidate on his m M^Evans said they had now heard for the first time that the applicants for the post who could understand the Welsh language were not legally qualified. (Hear, ^The Attorney General—Not so well qualified. Mr Evans ventured to say that they were. The hon member went on to point out that when county courts were first established in Wtles the county court judges were men who perfectly understood the Welsh language. All that the motion asked was that that House should express regret that the Lord Chancellor had acted in disregard of a resolution passed by the House twenty years ago. The Attorney General had expressed his sympathy with their national sentiment, but yet would voue against them. What they wanted was practical sympathy like that offered by the hon member for Devonport and the hon member for Den- bigh boroughs. (Hear, hear). This was not only a matter of sentiment but a very practical grievance, (Hear, hear). Me Darling opposed the resolution. Mr Alfred Thomas said it was absolutely necessary that a judge sitting in Wales should be able to speak the Welsh language indeed, it was almost impossible that justice could be done under any other circum- stances. He remembered a case where a man was tried for murder. The prisoner was sentenced to death, but he did not know that such was the fact un- til he was told by the gaoler as he was being taken to the cell. He (Mr Thomas) was sorry the Lord Chan- cellor had not followed the precedent set in the case of the appointment of Judge Gwilym Williams, one of the most popular appointments ever made. Mr Ratidell reminded the House that the indispens- able qualification of an Englishman who was appointed to a judicial post in India. was that he should have a knowledge of the native language. Why shoul,l iot a similar state of things obtain in Wales ? Mr W. Abraham believed that in reality the occu- pants of the Treasury Bench hAd the fullest sympathy for the motion of the hon member for Carnarvon. Unfortunately, they felt themselves compelled to de- fend the bungling and stupidity of the Lord Chan- cellor. (Laughter). He was glad to find there was such unanimity of opinion on this question, which was a national question. (Hear, hear). Gentlemen of all shades of politicjl and religious belief were at one. In the House of Commons there was a wonderful com- bination. In the first place there was the right hon gentleman the member for Denbighshire (Mr 0 Morgan), who was a Gladstonian Liberal the hon member for West Denbighshire (Mr Cornwallis West), who was a Liberal Unionist; and the hon member for the Denbigh Boroughs (Mr Kenyon), who was a Con- servative. The three were one on this question. Take another group. There was the hon bart, the member for Swansea (Sir H Vivian) as representing the Wales that was with no professed knowledge of the Welsh language the hon bart the member for Devonport (Sir J Puleston)as representing the Wales that was not—(laughier)—with a smattering of Welsh, but not sufficient for a continuity of speech, arguments, or con- versation—(renewed laughter)—and the hon member for Merioneth (Mr T E Ellis), a real Welshman, aud son of the land who was able to speak the language perfectly, and make no mistake about his f's and his double l's. (Renewed laughter). These gentlemen, too, were one on this question. It might truly be said that the Radicals and Nonconformists of Wales, on the one hand, and Conservatives and Churchmen on the other hand—the lions and lambs of Wales—were prepared on this occasion to he led by his young friend the member for Carnarvon. This was a matter of justice and necessity. He was not a lawyer, but he was told it was a maxim in law that a man should be tried by his peers. He was also told that the maxim was observed as a general rule almost everywhere but in Wales. Why should Welshmen he placeel at a dis- advantage that no other inhabitant of the British Empire was placed at ? His position as a miner's agent had given him occasion oftentimes to appear in courts with some of his legal friends elefeneling the cases of workmen, and he could point to two or three special occasions whereby the kindness of the late Ju 'ge Falconer, who was not a Welshman, but a kind- hearted man, allowed him to interfere between the Englishmen and Welshmen, and explain difficulties that had arisen. Mr Bryn Roberts remarked upon there being no ex- tenuating circumstances attaching to this appointment, and he declared that without a satisfactory statement from the Government the question would be raised on the Estimates. Mr A. J. Balfour thought that everybody must have heard the speech of the hon member for the Rhond la. Valley with very great sympathy, and, so far as he was personally concerned, he heard that speech with a large measure of agreement. The hon member had two points of view—the sentimental, or national, and the practical and legal point of view, the difficulties of conducting the business of the court where the presid- ing judge diel not understand the language of the parties in his court. As to the first point, he believed all the jedges appointed to county court judgeships in Wales were Welshmen, although they did not all speak the Welsh tongue. Certainly there had been nothing in any of these appointments to hurt the feel- ings of the most sensitive of Welshmen. The most important issue raiseel was that connected with the language, and here he laid down the general proposi- tion that he entirely agreed with every word used on the other side of the House, that other things being equal it was an advantage that the judge should understand the language of litigants and witnesses appearing in his court. He did not believe that the Lord Chancellor or any of his predecessors had taken any other view of the situation, though the terms of the resolution o'f 1872 may not have always been pre- sent in full strength to their minds. But, while affirming that general proposition, they could not, therefore, deduce therefrom that any county court judge appointed in Wales should be a gentleman speaking the Welsh language. Look back on the debate of twenty years ago, and it would be found that the terms of the resolution originally proposed were qualified before acceptance, and the Lord Chan- cellor was allowed a discretion to meet the demands of justice and the interests of legal administration, and this qualification had been interpreted by successive Governments deprecating all raising of party strife. He remarked that since 1872 successive Governments had appointed county court judges in Wales, of whom not more than two or possibly three had spoken the Welsh language with facility. Rightly or wrongly, success- ive Lord Chancellors had proceeded on the idea that though there were real objections to appointing a man who did not know the Welsh tongue, those objections were outweighed by other qualifications possessed by candidates. Some such licence must be left to the Lord Chancellor, unless the area of Welsh speaking districts were strictly circumscribed, as they were not by the resolution of 1872. In the particular circuit in question certainly a large proportion of the population knew English as well as Welsh, and many did not know Welsh. The majority, he believed, in the Aber- ystwyth district spoko English as well as Welsh. Mr T. Ellis-Not cutside the towns. Mr A. J. Balfcur could not compete with the hon member's local knowledge, but he was proceeding on the information he had. The district around New- town and Welshpool was English, rather than Welsh, speaking. Radnor was almost entirely an English- speaking county, and Hereford, of course, was situated in England. So even in this Welsh speaking district there was an enormous population speaking English. Observe that a great injury would be done to the Eng- lish-speaking part of the circuit if the Lord Chancellor were limited to the relatively restricted members of the bar who spoke Welsh. If the House meant to lay down the position that only a Welsh-speaking county court judge should be appointed in Welsh-speaking districts than there must be a^delimination of area such as there has not yet been. But in 1872 the House was advised not to draw the line too strictly, but to allow the Lord Chancellor some licence-a licence of which he admitted successive Lord Chancellors had largely exercised. It was no doubt a question of individual judgment and responsibility and discretion. The gentleman appointed had considerable experience, and language apart, was well qualified for the post. It was then but a narrow-pointed weapon, which cast a slur on the Lord Chancellor and the gentleman selected, and it would in no way strengthen the posi- tion taken in 1872. On the part of the Government he declared full adherence to the resolution of 1872. Note would be taken of the present debate should it fall to the Government to make another appointment. But to pass the resolution would be to pass an undeserved slight on a member of the Government and the gentle- man whom he had appointed. Sir W. Harcourt recalled the attention of the House to the fact that the resolution of 1872 did provide a limitation to Welsh-speaking districts. The Govern- ment had failed to justify their action in this appoint- ment. Mr T. E. Ellis said the Lord President of the Coun- cil on Education, in his appointments of school inspectors, and the Home Secretary in appointing factory and mining inspectors in Wales, had ".admitted into Acts of Parliament the principle for which the Welsh members contended, and the Prime Minister in appointing bishops had recognised it, but in two State Departments it was not recognised—in the Inland Revenue Department and the Lord Chancellor's De- partment. The appointment of non-Welsh-speaking county court judges, clerks of assize, and revising barristers in Wales was a scandal to the administra- tion of justice. That was no excuse whatever for this appointment of Mr Cecil Beresford. He asked the Government for a proiaise that his Honour would be removed to an English district, and that at the first opportunity the Government would appoint a Welsh- speaking barrister to this Welsh-speaking circuit. If not, he hoped his hon friend would press the motion to a division. THE DIVISION, No reply coming from the front ministerial bench, The House proceeded to a division, the division re- sulted as follows: — For the motion 143 Against 166 Ma-iorit-v a-,aiiist.- 23 The announcement of the numbers was received with loud Opposition cheers. Mr Webster advocated the abolition of the clauses of the Ballot Act which permitted the illiterate vote, and while Mr Keuny was speaking the House was counted out. HOUSE OF LORDS MONDAY. In the House of Lords on Monday, Lord Knutsford informed Lord Kimberley that the Government had agreed, at the request of the West Indian Colonies, to negotiate with the United States Government in reference to an intimation that unless the Colonies reduced their duties the American Government would increase the duties on West Indian produce imported into the States. The Colonies had agreed to abolish certain duties aud to reduce others. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY. In the House of Commons, on \1, inlay, Mr C uipli in introducing a Bill for ti ( acquis:; uu f s rail holdings of land in the a J cutual nit* ricti of England and Scotland, saiii tha the 111 must be of the nature of an experiment, II o the Government had decided, after full consideration, that it was both right and expedient to make. The Bill empowered the Public Works Loan Commissioners to lend at a rate of inter- est not excediDg 31 per cent., and the County council to borrow fiom them, or others, money for providing small holdings for persons who were resident in the county in which the land was acquired, and who would themselves cultivate the land. The amount to be borrowed was not to exceed a sum involving a charge 011 the county rate of one penny in the pound, a rate w hich would produce in England and Scotland, exclu- sive of London and the county boroughs, something like ten million sterling. A small holding was not to be less than one' acre, and not more than fifty acres in extent, snd. its annual value was not to be greater than fifty pounds. The County Council was the body to put the Act into operation, and, on a petition by one or more county electors, it was empowered to appoint a Committee which should inquire into the circumstauces and report to the Council. The land was to be acquired by the Council, not by hire, but by purchase, and the price to be given was not to exceed what they might reason- ably expect to receive from it themselves including ex- penses, when the land was disposed of in small hold- ings. The Bill did not confer compulsory powers of purchase on the County Council. To assist agri- cultural labourers to rise who could not pay down a fourth of the purchase-money, the County Council was empowered to let land to them in quantities not ex- ceeding ten acres. Any buildings required was to be erected by the purchaser, power was given tothe Conucil to lend three-fourths of the purchase money to the tenant where he had made his own bargain with the landlord. A prolonged discussion, which was opened by Sir W. Harcourt, followed, in which the chief objections raised to the Bill were that the working of the schema should have been entrusted, not to County Councils, whose administrative arias were too large, but to small lo^al d parish councils that the giving of voinpulsory powers to the local authority was indis- pensable that some latitude in the hiring of land should be allowed and that the restriction of building on holdings under twenty-five pounds a year should be withdrawn. The Bill was otherwise favourably received, and Sir W. Harcourt professed a hearty desire to make the Bill a living and workable one. It was read a first time, and the second reading was fixed for Monday next. Mr Jackson explained the provisions of a Bill which he asked leave to introduce for improving National Education inl reland. The Bill required Town Commis- sioners to apply the principle of compulsory attend- ance, but it ieft it optional to the new County and Baronial Giuucils to apply the principle or not. The ninety thousand pounds due to Ireland for the current finauciil year would be handed over to the Teachers' Pension Fund, and the sum of two hundred thousand pounds, which was the equivalent of the grant given to England and Scotland, would be applied to making an addition to the class salaries of tne teachers to improving the pay of assistant teachers of seven years' service; towards improving the *position of the smallest schools; and, lastly to makingacapitation grant practically of the balance of about one hundred thou- sand pounds. In return, all schools, the fees of which did not exceed six shillings a year per child, would in future be freei from school pence. The Bill was discussed at some length, and the Debate was notjConduded when the twelve o'clock rule came iuto operation. HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY. The Bill for the protection of persons under age in matters relating to betting and loans was read a second time, on the motion of Lord Herschell. The Clergy Discipline Bill was re- introduced by the Archbishop of Canterbury, and read a first time. HOUSE OF COMMONS TUESDAY. The Home Secretary stated to Mr J Ellis that he had replied to a request of the Watch Committee of the Eastbourne Town Council for permission to withdraw police protection from the Salvation Army in the streets of that borough, and had informed the Committee that he could sanction no measure which would have the effect of allowing disturbances to continue unchecked. Mr Balfour gave notice that on Friday he would move that Mr De Coliain, having failed to obey the order of the House to attend in bis place on the 23rd instant, and having fled from justice, be expelled from the House.

WELSH DISESTABLISHMENT. Mr S. Smith rose to move That, as the Church of England in Wales has failed to fulfil its professed object as a means of promoting the religious interests of the Welsh people, and ministers only to a small minority of the population, its continuance as an Established Church in the Principality is an anomaly and an mjustice which ought no longer to exist." The hon member, who was received with opposition cheers claimed the indulgence of the House on the ground that he had risen from a sick bed to be present in his place. He approached the subject of his resolution with a great sense of responsibility, for it was hardly possible to do justice to the intense conviction of the Welsh people on this burning question. The hon member then dealt with the arguments in favour of dis- establishment with which our readers are too familiar to need them to be recapitulated. Mr Dillwyn, in seconding the Motion, said the Welsh Church had practically disestablished itself, as it forfeited the position which it had occupied in con- sequence of the immorality, corruption, idleness and venality of its ministers in years gone by. Although the Welsh clergy had now reformed, and contained many earnest, moral and hard working men, still, the people, having established places of worship, did not intend to leave them (Hear, hear). He could not understand how anybody could assert that the Welsh people were desirous of returning to the Church. The Solicitor General delivered a long and eloquent speech and was followed by Colonel West, Mr Kenyon and Mr Lloyd George who pointed out that not one of the members who had spoken in support of the Establishment had quoted statistics to justify their contention that the Church had made progress in Wales Nonconformity was increasing both in numbers and in influence and it could not be eradi- cated without disfiguring and mangling the national character. During the last twenty years the number of Nonconformist adherents had increased by 50 per cent. and their contributions by 75 per cent. In the tithe agitation it was made clear that the Church was buttressed by police truncheons. It was high time, in the interests of the Church itself, that it should be rescued from its false position by conceding the small measure of right which was loudly demanded in the Principality. Mr Byron Reed followed with a speech with which our readers are already familiar. Mr Osborne Morgan said that it was idle to deny Welsh nationality. The Solicitor General had dealt with statistics. There was nothing more unreliable than figures, unless it was facts. A test might, how- ever, be found in the ballot box. Out of thirty Welsh members no fewer than twenty-seven were pledged to disestablishment. Many Churchmen in Wales were in favour of disestablishment, and believed that if the Church had stood alone fifty years ago, it would have, like Aaron's rod, swallowed tip all the rest. Mr Balfour then rose and was followed by Sir W. Harcourt. when the division was taken For the motion 220 Against 267 Maioritv aizainat 47 The figures wsre received with loud Ministerial cheers and counter cheers. There was nothing new said on the subject and our readers are well acquainted with the stock arguments against disestablishment.

THE APPOINTMENT OF MAGISTRATES IN WALES. In the discussion in the House of Commons on Mr Seale-Hayne's Bill, the Erne Secretary said it was said that the present system did not lead to the appointment of as many Nonconformists and as many working men as hon. members desired. He had urged the lords lieutenant in Wales to do their best to appoint qualified members of the Nonconformist body, who might be recommended to the Lord Chancellor. Mr Thomas Ellis-Quite in vain. Mr Matthews-No, not quite in vain. though not so many have been reccommended as I could wish. Mr CornwaHis West, as a lord-lieutenant, felt it was unfair that any suspicion should go from the House that the lords lieutenant of Wales were actuated solely by party feeling in the appointments they made. He had endeavoured in this matter to the best of his ability to discover gentlemen who differed from him in politics. He had asked persons conversant with the county to give him the names of emine.it Nouon- formists who they thought ourrhb t > o pllù on the commission of the peac •, whenever he had dis- covered such gentlemen lie had put them on the com- mission but s) l ing as the property qualification remained as it was it was almost impossible to find Noncon- formists with the necessary property qualifications. (Ironical Opposition cheers). He would not at all object to see that qualification either considerably reduced or done away with —(cheers),—but it was absurd to throw stones at lords lieutenant, and to say they did not appoint Nonconformists, when as a matter of fact gentlemen coming from Wales knew that the majority of Nonconformists were not in a position in life to be able to produce the necessary qualifica- tion. He had been fortunate enough to find some Noncon- formists who had made most excellent magistrates but he never paid the slightest regard to a man's religious opinions. If a man was just, a1' a in,111 of standing and education, he would in all probability nhtain the confidence of the com- munity amongst whom he dwelt and it was unfair to say that lords lieutenant were actuated in the appointments they made solely by I)ol: ical or re igious motives. Helooked with the greatest possible mistrust upon any proposal for the election of magistrates. (Ministerial cheers.) In a country like Wales, where party spirit ran very high, if they were going to give the api»iintment of magistrates to the County Councils, they would have gentlemen of means and position who did not happen t" be members of the dominant party in the country excluded altogether from the business of the county in which they took very great interest. (Hear, hear.) Even now those gentlemen, being largely excluded from the County Councils, elid not take the interest in the county that they used to do, while some of them were actually going away from the district. He preferred to retain that class of persons in the county. As far as the county with which he was connected was concerned, the magistrates were actuated by a desire to do justice and he beliered that at the present moment there was no actual dislike or suspicion against the magistrates m the counties, although unfortunately there were those who, from political motives, went about raiding suspicion against them with a desire to exclude them not only from the judical work, but, if they could, from every other work in the country. (Hear, hear.) Mr T. E. Ellis said the allegation of the hon. member (Mr Llewellyn) that the objections to the present system on which magistrates were chosen came more or less from those who were anxious to write -F. I'. after their names was not in itselfan argument of a very honourable kind to throw out against hon. gentlemen sitting on the Opposition side. Mr Llewellyn must be allowed to explain. He did not say that the objections of hon. members opposite were that they were not magistrates, but that out-of-doors the objections very often raised came from such persons. Mr Thomas Ellis was glad that the hon. gentleman had withdrawn an insinuation which the whole House under- stood to be applied to members on the Opposition side. ("No, no.") The hon. gentleman the member for West Denbigh- shire was the Lord-Lieutenant of that county. There were among the magistrates in that county a clergyman from an adjoining county, a baronet from Scotland, and gentlemen from Deroyshire and Chester, and a Lieutenant-General from Somersetshire. Mr Cornwallis West (interrupting) explained that the probability was that the names referred to were those of gentlemen who once resided in the county and had now left. (Hear, hear). Mr Thomas Ellis retorted that, if these gentlemen merely figured in the list of magistrates and were never seen in the county, then one purpose of this Bill was well served. Gentlemen who lived in Scotland and Somersetshire shoulel become magistrates and attend to magisterial duties in the counties in which they resided. In the county of Denbigh, as in several other counties, it was only by the operation of the Local Government Act that the Chairman of the County Council had been made a magistrate. Mr Cornwallis West—The Chairman of the County Council has been offered the position two or three time anti has refused it. Mr Thomas Ellis said he did not know it, but he could quite understand that that gentleman had refused to be made a magis- trate under the present system. [Laughter. I The honour had been offered to himself two or three times, but he did not thi'lk it right to accept it simply because he had been elected for the county, when he was without the necessary qualification and when he knew it would be impoe-iible for him while in the House to discharge the duties of the otfice. In Flintshire the Chairman of the County Council was a magistrate simply because he had been elected to the chairmanship. There were very few Liberals on the bench, and the Lord Lieutenant had refused to put any Nonconformist upon the Commission of the Peace for the county. The Chairman of the Anglesey County Council likewise was only a magistrate ex-otfieio. The Home Secretary was indeed un- happy in going to Wales for his illustrations. The Chairman of the Quarter Sessions in Cardiganshire was a Worcestershire barrister who happened to have a fishing lodire in the county, and the main part he had taken in the work of the bench was as a member of the Joint Police Committee, on which he had used his ingenuity as a lawyer to endeavour to frustrate the wishes of the County Council. The Nonconformists were an overwhelming majority in Carmarthenshire, and yet on the bench there was oniy one Noncomformist who was only appointed after he became a Liberal Unionist. In Carmarthenshire the liarl of Cawdor had followed the example of the Lord Lieutenant of Flintshire, who had refused to place any Nonconformist on the bench. There- fore his son, Lord Emlyn, having to bear the sins of his father, was ousted from the representation of the county and had to seek a seat in Manchester. There was nothiti- against him personally, but he represented the system which boycotted the majority of the people of the county. There was no analogy between the American system, as the Home Secretary described it, and the system proposed by the Bill, for in America the election ,À9 by the people, and by the Bill the election was to be m&de by an elected body of representatives. Those who were called faddists were only terrible people at the time of an election, and when that was over they had little iufluence over the proceedings of an elected council. When it was said that minorities would be ex- cluded altogether, he ventured to think that no exclusion could be carried as far as it had been carried by the lords lieutenant tlready-ihear, hear] ;-and there couli be no doubt that Churchmen would be elected hy County Councils even in the counties where Nonconformists were in an overwhelming inajorit3.

DIE-STAMPING, AND LITHOGRAPHING OF EVERY DESCRIPTION AT THE CAMBRIAN NEWS OFFICE, CAMBRIAN NLWS," PRINTING WORKS, MILL STREET, ABERYSTWYTH, PRINTING. GILT-EDGED Calling Cards GUMMED Papers for Labels. CIRCULARS, Pamphlets, Business Carcig, C Reports. ORDER Books, Receipt Books, etc., paged and perforated. ENVELOPES at low price j^ANGY PAPERS for Bills and^Circulars. pLAIN and Printed Tea Papers. STATEMENT of Claim and ptfrer Legal Printing. ^JOLOURED Papers for Wrapping Bottles m OURNING Cards and Envelopes. SPECIAL Ruling done on the Premises. AUCTION Bills, Catalogues, Conditions of Sale. CLOTH Lined Cards in different colours. BALL Programmes. INVOICE Headings Memorandum Forms Time Sheets. DONE QUICKLY AND CHEAPLY m ANILA and other Labels.