The South Wales Star

THE PROPOSED ACQUISI- TION OF GAS AND WATER. RESOLUTION BY THE CHAMBER «. OF TRADE. A general meeting of members of the Barry District Chamber of Trade was held at Harry's Restaurant, Barry Dock, on Thursday evening, Mr. D. T. Alexander, Dinas Powis (the president), in the chair. The meeting was called to consider whether the Local Board are justified in taking steps to promote a Bill in Parliament for the pur- chase of the gas and water undertaking." At the commencement of the meeting Mr. J. Lowdon moved that the resolution passed at the Council meeting be endorsed Mr. G. Garnett, Cadoxton, seconded.—Mr. W. Llewellyn Williams moved as an amendment that the support of the Chamber of Trade be given to the Local Board in the proposed purchase, providing it be on fair and equitable terms Mr. Gould, Barry, seconded.—The resolu- tion. was declared carried by ten votes. IMPORTANT RATEPAYERS' MEETING. THE BOARD'S ACTION CONFIRMED. ENTHUSIASTIC PROCEEDINGS. On Friday evening a well-attended meeting of Tatepayers was held at the Public Hall, Thompson- 'street, Barry Dock, at the instance of the Local Board. Mr. John Robinson (chairman of the Local Board), presided, and there were also present General Lee, Mr. J. A. Hughes (clerk to the Local Board), Mr. Alderman Meggitt, Captain Davies '(dockmaster), Captain Murrell. Mr. D. T. Alex- ander (president of the Barry Chamber of Trade), Messrs. Benjamin Lewis, George Thomas and Dr. ■O'Donncll (members of the Local Board). John Lowdon (manager Graving Docks Co.), J. C. Pardoe (surveyor of Local Board), W. H. Morgan (Lloyd's Bank), S. A. Williams, W. Llewellyn Williams. T. M. Harris (manager Gas and Water Works), D. Roberte. Dr. Powell, Dr. Lloyd Edwards. Roberts, E. Rees, F. W. Taylor, Thomas Thomas. W. Copp, Herbert Morgan, T. II. Morgan, A. W. Morgan, D. T. Davies, Menaton, Smith Jones, W. Hosgood. D. Morgan, Johnson. D. Edwards, J. J. Moon, C. J. Flowers. C. Howe, E. Phillips, D. Gibbon. F. White. J. D. Davies, G. Garnet^ A. Found, D. Davies, W. Miller, and J. T. Danuo. Mr. J. A. Hughes having read the notice con- vening the meeting, The Chairman said this was a meeting convened under the Public Health Act, 1878, and only one resolution could be put to the meeting, and no amendments could be put, but an owner or rate- payer could, on giving a security of £ 70, demand a poll. The resolution he had to put was :— Resolved that this meeting of the ratepayers do hereby authorise the Barry and Cadoxton Local Board to promote a Bill in the next session of Parliament to acquire the gas and water under- taking of the Barry Gas and Water Company, and to charge the general district with the cost thereof. With regard to this resolution, steps had been taken to meet the Gas and Water Com- pany with a view to arranging the terms upon which they would part with their undertaking, and with their consent going to Parliament with an unopposed Bill. I f this could be done the Royal assent might be obtained in July or August next. He believed the undertaking had first cost £ 68.000, which had been increased to £ 85,000. The com- pany last year made a profit of £4,000, which enabled them to pay a dividend of 5 per cent. Whatever terms might be agreed upon between the Company and the Local Board, the money might be borrowed, and the re-payment extended over a. period of SO or 60 or more years. There would be some Parliamentary expenses incurred, and the re- payment of these would not be extended over such a long period. He thought they were all agreed that a good and plentiful supply of water was wanted for this district, particularly in view of new works being started amongst them, and whether the present supply would be sufficient it was very doubtful. The local authority should have the gas and water in their own hands. and he had always been in favour of that principle—(ap- plause)—and nearly everyone he had spoken to on the matter in this district were of the same opinion. (Hear, hear.) The only question raised was whether the time was appropriate or not. It was said there was a lot of distress in this district, but it was not more so here than elsewhere, and the longer they waited the more they would have to pay for the undertaking. If the cost of the purchase was distributed over a long period the ratepayers would not feel it so much. (Applause.) Alderman Meggitt said the Local Board had met the ratepayers on several previous occasions, but never with a stronger case than they brought before them that night. (Hear, hear.) If the Local Board had been in existence a few years before it had been so, they would not be there that night discussing this question, as they might have taken titeps to secure the gas and water in their own hands. The Company was formed in 1883, two years before the Local Board came into existence. He would divide what he had to say into three beads-1st, He wanted to find out what the Company had done to justify its continued existence 2nd, what were the reasons advanced against their acquiring the Gas and Water Company's undertaking and 3rd, what are the reasons in favour of their doing so at once. They would remember the meeting which had been held at the Public-hall, Cadoxton, when the Board had applied for certain powers, which the meeting granted, and they asked them that night to again give them their consent. In dealing with the matter he would first ask, what had the com- pany done to justify its existence? First, the directors and shareholders made it their aim to make the affair a. paying concern. In 1886 they obtained a Bill almost for exactly what they wished, .and they had taken advantage of their power to exact high rates for their gas and water. (Hear, hear.) As far as he could find out the water'charges were higher in this district than in any other part of Wales, and it was nearly so with the gas. The water, also, was not of the best quality. It was particularly hard—harder than usually was the case. Those present who had boilers connected with their kitchen ranges would know how unfit it was for use. There were times when the gas had not been so good as might be ex- pected. The company had made a charge on each house of 4:1 for laying on water to each house. He knew of no other town in the United Kingdom where such a charge was made. Whilst they were willing to put gas to any house without charge, they had made and sustained a charge of £1 for laying 011 water. Taking the case from another point, the Local Board and ratepayers had reason to complain that whilst the local authority had a large number of lamps in use, they had to pay at just the same rate for the gas they con- sumed as the proprietor of that room did for the small amount he consumed. In other towns there was a difference made by the companies to the large consumers of the gas. There were other things he ,could mention, but there were others who would lay their views before them. The Local Board came to them that night to ask for power to promote a Bill in Parliament to take these things in hand. (Hear, hear.) It would be the duty of the local authority, if this thing came to pass, to see that they had a good supply of water, and to lower the rates both for gas and water. (Hear, hear.) Some of the diffi. culties raised were imaginary ones. It was said this was not the right time to take up the subject as trade was so bad. He acknowledged that trade was bad, and that fact hit some of them very hard indeed but, on the contrary, that was the very strongest reason why they should go at once and purchase. If gentlemen at the Docks at Cardiff wished to purchase ships they seized the oppor- tunity when the ships were laying up in hundreds, not when there was not a single ship idle. If they wanted to invest their money in house property there they would not wait until all, the houses were full, but when they were empty. So with the cras and water. So that argument fell to the around. (Hear, hear.) Again it had been said that if the local authority took over this com- pany's undertaking it would cripple the borrowing powers of the Local Board. It would do nothing .-of the kind. They had power to borrow, under the Public Health Act of 1875, to the extent of double the rateable value of the district, and that did not include remunerative works. There were ^remunerative works such as roads, sewering,&c„ but gas and water, cemeteries, &c., were remunera- tive works. and would not affect their borrowing powers. They could borrow up to £ 9(>,000, and up to the present they had borrowed £49,000, part of which had been expended on private improvements which would be repayable in time. The money borrowed for purchasing the gas and water would be totally distinct from that. Therefore that argument was of no effect. The next objection raised, and he thought there was mortf in this than in the others, was that the terms would be too onerous, and would lay too heavy on the rates. There was no doubt that if they could remove the difficulty of the purchase of this undertaking being a burden on the rates they would practically remove all opposition. His opinion was that this undertaking in the hands of the Local Board would not be any additional burden on the rates. (Applause.) lie had in his hand a list of 122 Acts of Parliament passed during the last 10 years, and in every Act the towns had been allowed a term of from 20 to 25 years' purchase. They could not tell what the cost of the undertaking would be until experts had gone into the matter, or what the extra charge would be. They must not forget that a part of the money which had been spent by the company had been abortive, and they must hare these things enquired into before they went definitely. into the matter. They must have in this district a supply of water of less hardness than they had at present. Even if it came to a question of a two-penny rate, he would still urge the rate- payers and the Local Board to take over the matter. If they took it in five or ten years hence, they would have to pay a much higher sum for it. It was said that the Local Board could not work it so economically as the directors had done. Even if they exceeded the present workiug expenses by a small margin, the directors received a remunera- tion of £1,000 per annum, whilst the Local Board did not get anything for their work, so that really there was a possibility in favour of the Local Board working it cheaper. (Hear, hear.) He would next deal with the reasons why they should y purchase it at once. One of the strongest reasons was because the directors did not wish to sell. (Loud cheers.) The directors were gentlemen whom he wished to hold in the highest esteem, but they were not the consumers of either the water or the gas. Their aim was to consider their own interests, and the interests of their shareholders. Their aim was wealth, and the aim of the Local Board was health, which, to his mind, was far better. (Applause.) He had a table of the returns -the latest he could obtain, although published some years sinre-or towns wnere tne local autho- rities had taken over the gas and water. Sixty local authorities had taken the gas supply in their own hands, and everyone of them was worked at a profit. (Applause.)—Not one of the autho- rities had ever turned it up, and Barry would be no exception in this case. (Hear, hear.) Thete were 69 authorities again on this table which had the water in their own hands. Some few of them showed a deficiency, but these towns which snowed a deficiency on the water account showed a contrary balance on the gas. (Hear, hear.) By taking the gas and water in their own district over he thought they would not add to the rates. especially as gas was always more profitable than water. There was not so much waste in gas. but a great waste of water 60 authorities had the gas. and 69 the water, but only seven were worked at a loss. There might be a few undertakings where the water might be a loss, but nearly always the contrary balance on the gas more than counter- balanced that loss. (Applause.) Then as to their borrowing powers. For roads, sewers, &c. they could borrow for 20 years, but Parliament always allowed a longer time for gas and water. ThGI,) Acts he had in his hands allowed from 40 to 90 years. Derby had 65 years, Cardiff (for water) 80 years, Birmingham 90 years, Stafford 80 years, &:c. In the same list, the time allowed to pay back the costs of the Act was extended to a term of 15 years. Newport was allowed 20 years, and other towns the term of 10, 15, to 20 years. He believed that if they delayed to purchase this undertaking for five or ten years they would be simply playing into the hands of the directors. (Hear, hear.) Last year, when the company were promoting their new Bill, some of them saw the directors before they saw them officially, and they then hinted that if the Local Board would not oppose they would put in a clause, stating that if the Board liked they could buy the undertaking in five yean. Of course the Board refused as they wanted a much shorter period, and he could not help thinking that if they .did not go to Parliament at once they would be playing the shareholders game for them. (Hear, hear.) There had been great talk in this dis- trict of new industries, manufactories and works; but they would never have them here until they had a b itter supply of water. Even for their own little steam-roller they had been obliged to piy nearly £ 100 for repairs, which were almost entirely due to the water. Let them get the water in their own hands and then they would be able to get a better supply. (Cheers.) Neither the Barry Com- pany nor the Graving Dock Company could use it. Take the case of Cardiff. They knew what was going on about the gas works there, and was in- formed that the waterworks at Newport could have been purchased for £ 100,000, but they delayed the purchase until 1890 when they had to give £ 270,000 for the same supply. If they delayed they might have to pay a fabulous price, such a price which must make the undertaking unremu- nerative. Now was the time to buy. (Loud cheers.) There were two more reasons. Any additional capital raised by the Company in any new Bill they might promote, any new capital expenditure, they would have to pay for at a very much higher rate perhaps for every hundred pounds they would have to pay one hundred and fifty. The company had not redeemed its character. The profits now went in dividends, but the result of the purchase would be that due arrangements would be made for a sinking fund consequently they would be able to provide at a cheaper rate by wiping off the costs year by year, whilst the corn panv, on the other hand, were reaping in thei dividends. He hoped the ratepayers that nigh would sanction the efforts of the Local Board to go to Parliament in order to get the control in their own hands. By going to Parliament now they would have a much cheaper rate. (Loud applause.) Mr. D. T. Alexander arose, and said he was there, not to give voice to any opinion of his own for or against the question, nor in an individual capacity, but simply as the President of the Barry Chamber of Commerce, to give utterance to the views of the Chamber of Commerce meeting held the preceding evening, when the following resolu- tion was arrived at — That the Council, while approving of the broad principle of local authorities purchasing undertakings for the supply of gas and water in their dis- trict, they do not consider the present time as op- portune for the purchase by the Barry Local Board of the gas and water." This resolution was carried by 16 votes against 6. Mr. W. LI. Williams (editor of the South Wales Star') said he came there as President of the Young Wales Society, which had passed a resolution by a large majority in favour of the Local Board acquiring the gas and water undertaking. (Loud applause.) Mr. Benjamin Lewis, in a characteristically humorous speech, spoke in favour of the purchase by the Local Board of the gas and water. He was satisfied that every intelligent and sensible man in the town who had no interest in the Company was thoroughly convinced that the Local Board were moving in the right direction. Some people were afraid that if the Board moved in this matter at the present time they would have a very heavy rate. He thought nothing of the kind. (Ap- plause.) It would take from twelve to eighteen months to get the whole business completed, even if the company consented to the acquisition of the gas and water by the Local Board, which he had no doubt they would doas sensible men, when they saw that the Local Board were backed up by the rate- payers. (Applause. ) Then after the matter was settled there would be no instalments due on the loans for six months, so that if it took eighteen months to complete the business it would be two years- before the ratepayers would feel anything of the loan. But they were going to have better times. (Applause.) A little bird whispered to him that day that the Barry Company were going to pro- mote a Bill in Parliament in the next session for an extension of the railway. (Applause.) Some- one had spoken of the incompetency of the Local Board, and the splendid ability of the Water Com- pany. (Laughter.) He would like to answer his friend that neither the Local Board nor any sensible Water Company would ever make a reservoir without putting in a filter-bed. (Hear, hear.) They had engineers and architects and others on their Board who would direct things in the right way. (Applause.) He would challenge them, whether they belonged to that district or not, to find a district which had got on as this district had done. (Applause.) Mr. Roberts said that the General Manager of the Barry Company (Mr. Evans) had intended being present that night, but was prevented by an engagement from doing so. The Board asked him to attend this meeting, and express their satisfac- tion at the way in which the Local Board had carried on its work in this district since its forma- tion, and that there was a lot of work still to be done. They did not. however, consider the present a right time to go in for the purchase of the gas and water. They, therefore, asked them to pause and be careful before they launched into this vast scheme at the present time. Mr. John Lowdon said he was afraid they hadn't given this scheme the consideration they ought to have done. He had not heard any figures put before them. nor any financial statement. Before giving them the powers they asked for. the Board should take them a little into their confidence. They were told the water supply was a very bad one. How were they going to get a better one ? He should like to ask the chairman if any advance had been made to the company to see if they would consent to sell. The Chairman read some correspondence which had taken place on the matter between Mr. J. A. Hughes and Mr. Harris, the manager of the Gas and Water Company. The latter gentleman wrote stating that he would lay Mr. Hughes' letter before his directors, but nothing had been heard since. Mr. George Thomas said that in reply to Mr. Lowdon's request for figures, Mr. Meggitt gave some figures which if he wanted he would re- iterate. The capital of the Gas Company as published in the balance-sheets was £ 68.000. which had since been increased to £ 85.000, and the total of their share capital ihad been paid up. They had power to borrow an additional £ 25.000. The capital expenditure up to June had been £83.850. That expenditure, after paying working expenses, produced a net revenue of £4.000, which paid 5 per cent. Last year, in addition to the revenue, the shareholders voted their directors an extra £500, making it £1,000, which, if the affair was in the hands of the Local Board, would b* saved. They could not give any iisrures as to what the undertaking would cost the district. The Local Board did not wish to approach the shareholders in a hostile spirit. They had come there as speculators they had obtained an Act of Parliament, and it was on that Act of Parliament and their expenditure they would have to deal. They were perfectly entitled to any profit they might make on the speculation. (Hear, hear.) He had always been opposed to members of com- panies having the control over the water. Water was a necessity of life, and by granting power over the water Parliament granted a monopoly. They could not blame the company for getting the best price they could. With regard to what Mr. Roberts had said—they all had a great deal of respect for what was said by the Barry Company— but they did not forget the fact that neither the Barry Company nor the Graving Dock Company, were consumers of the water. The consumers were the people who had a great deal of interest in getting the control of the matter. He thought the question asked by Mr. Lowdon had been com- pletely answered by the letters read by the Chair- man rVint tlifi T.nfi.l Honrcl would make everv arrangement to meet the company in an amicable way. The question came to this—it was one of confidence in the Local Board. If they had not confidence in the Local Board they must vote against them, but, if, on the other hand, they had confidence in their representatives they would support them in their efforts. Mr. Lowdon had raised the question as to where they would get a better supply. That was a serious question. Cardiff had had to go to the Brecon Beacons. The large towns, such as London and Birmingham, were pro- moting Bills to take water from their water-sheds. but the Glamorganshire County Council were fully alive to the necessity of preventing large cities getting a monopoly of the water, so that smaller towns of 20 or 30 thousand people, who could not afford to go to such a large expense, would have a chance. It was, therefore, import- ant that small towns like theirs should get the water into their own hands, so that by and bye, they could continue to get pure water, which would be out of their reach unless they combined to share the expenses. He was not going to say that they would not have a small increase on the rates, but there was no doubt in his mind that very little, indeed, would have to be put out of the rates. In conclusion he asked them to put their confidence in the Local Board, and give them the power they asked for. (Loud applause.) Mr. J. S. Johnson said that when the Graving Dock came into existence the Water Company was utterly unable to supply the water required for the Dry Dock, and the consequence was that the water had to be supplied by the Barry Company. Many of the ratepayers did not object so much to the Local Board acquiring, on their behalf, the under- taking, but they wanted something to go upon as to what they had to pay. In a matter like that, he thouerht that the Local Board had not given them the figures lie thought they might have ex- pected from them. They ought to give them some idea. as to what the directors of the Gas and Water Company were prepared to do. He believed the directors would meet them in a liberal spirit in the matter. He thought they should approach the company in a proper spirit, and then convene another meeting and'tell the ratepayers something as to what they would have to pay. Mr. F. W. Taylor said they heard what the heavy ratepayers had to say, and, as a small rate- payer, h? should like them to hear what he had to say. Water was a necessity of life, and he declined to allow the right of any company to ftep in and have an entire monopoly of what he was bound to have. Stress had been laid on the fact of what the heavy ratepayers had to say, but they were better able to meet the expense than the small ones. They must bear in mind-the lower their houses were rated, the heavier water rate they had to pay. (Hear, hear.) He did not think the working classes of the district were opposed to the acquisi- tion of this affair. (Hear, hear.) They had heard a great deal said lately about the flushing of the district—(uproar)—and the question of flushing eisterns had come up-(continued uproar)-and he wished to remind them that the more water they used the more they would have to pay for it. He thought the Local Board should be congratulated on the action they had taken in the matter, and that they should be supported right and left. (Ap- plause.) Mr. Smith Jones said he thought the aim of Ae speeches they had heard was to mislead and raise false impressions. The question for them now was to consider the desirability of the public authority to have control of the present water supply. In the first place, it. was not desirable for them, at the pre- sent time, to contemplate making the purchase, as the financial state of their neighbourhood was very unsatisfactory. The Local Board also had a number of other costly schemes in hand, and he should like to know what thair balance would be when these schemes were matured. They had only been sowing the seeds, and he thought that bye and bye.instead of the Is. 2d. rate it would be a 3s. 8d. one. The present undertaking was one which it would not be right for them, -as wise men to think of buying. The pumping system was used, and every undertaking worked by that system in the kingdom had proved unsatisfactory, and it was condemned everywhere. General Lee said Mr. Meggitt had given them statistics, and put everything clearly in a nutshell, and he asked them to put their Local Board in possession of the required powers. What better statistics could they have ? They had heard that 69 towns had taken this thing in hand, and not in a single case where the gas and water had been taken over had there been a loss. (Applause.) He thought they could not go deeper into the business than that. They must have some reserve flower—and he, as an old soldier, always liked to have some-in their hands. They were asking for certain powers for certain occasions, and they did not wish to do anything outside their scope on this- occasion. (Hear, hear.) A previous speaker objected to the purchase of the present water supply. He had overlooked the fact that the present water supply was a monopoly, and as long as it existed they could not alter the fact of its existence. The interest of the company was the interest of pounds, shillings, and pence, but the interest of the Local Board were the interests of the district. He thought what Mr. Meggitt had said was right. If it was not a good concern why did the directors when asked refused to deal with them—(applause)—and he wished to again impress upon them the value and importance of the water and gas being in their own hands. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that they would put their trust in the Local Board, which had not served them badly in the past, nor would they do so in the future. (Hear, hear, and applause). The Chairman then put the resolution to the meeting, and after the votes had been counted by the Chairman and Mr. Hughes, the Chairman announced that 63 had voted for the resolution and 23 against, the resolution being carried by a majority of 40. The result was hailed with applause, and the meeting terminated.