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WEDNESDAY'S MEETINGS. I

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WEDNESDAY'S MEETINGS. I The conference resumed its sittings in St. James's I Hall, on Wednesday when the Lord Bishop of the Diocese took the ehair, after allowing a time of grace for those delegates who had some distance to come. The attendance was rather smaller than on theprevions day. ACKNOWLEDGMENTS. I Before the commencement of business, the Bishop proposed a vote of thanks to Mr J. G. Talbot, M.P., for his attendance at the conference and for his address. They were deeply indebted to Mr Talbot for having come, whilst enjoying a well deserved holiday after a most exacting Parliamentary Session. They were indebted to him for great services rendered to the Church of England. (Hear, hear.) The resolution having been carried, The Bishop proposed a vote of thanks to the Very Rev. the Dean of Windsor for the sermon which he had delivered on the previous evening at the beautiful service in the glorious old church. The Dean had struck a trne note, and had struck it with so much I earnestness and taste that it couH not hare failed to go to the hearts of all. (Hear, hear.) I The resolution was carried with applause. CHURCH ATTENDANCE. I Captain D. H. Mytton opened the business of the I day by rending a paper upon Church attendance I how to secure a better attendance at public worship." He thought the first thing which militated against a good attendance at public worship was the growing opinion that the Sabbath was to be regarded as a day of pleasure or indolence rather than a day of rest and thankfulness. People were too apt to set apart this day for concluding the work or rectifying the omissions of the past week, rather than attending public worship and seeking a fresh supply of grace to enable them to perform the duties of the week. They could not prize the Sabbath too highly, for mind and body both required occasional rest, and every human being, be he the man of busi- ness, or one that toiled with his own hands all the week, should value the setting apart of this day for that purpose. Some of the excuses given for non- attendance at Church were too fiimsy to tie: i seriously but respecting the complaints about dull, lengthy, and uninteresting sermons it did behove the clergy to study the wants of the people, to show that his heart was in his work, and that he had taken pi: in" to prepare his sermons. The way in which the services of the Church were conducted was material towards securing a good attendance. The efficiency of the choir was a most important feature, and the greatest pains should be taken to secure it. People with influence should not forget that the force of example went a long way in inducing people to attend public worship, and those who too readily absented themselves were apt to deter others from attending. He thought that one means of securing a better atten- dance was by extending the experiment of Sun- day classes for young men conducted by ladies. (Cheers.) •J.iie liev. u. Jones, vicar of Uang-erniew, Proctor in Convocation, said anything was better than stag- nation in the churches, and efficient work could only be done if there were power to remove those men who did not faithfully discharge their duties in the parishes. (Laughter.) The recent tithe agitation- resisted by the clergy fighting in the interest of the Church-had caused some clergymen to become more or less unpopular. He considered it was the duty of the patrons to give such clergymen a fresh s.art in other parishes. (Hear, hear. ) He con- sidered that no one should be allowed to remain in a parish longer than seven years, but he should be allowed to remain if he desired it. How could a clergyman do good work, if he did not know where his bread and cheese was to come from. He thought that the incomes of all livings should be at least C200 a year. He strongly urged that the upper ten in the parishes should, by the regularity of their attendance at church, give an example to the rest of the people, and he thought the upper ten should alter their dinner hour 60 as not only to be able to come to church, but enable their servants to come also. (Loud cheers.) Mr Lucas Stubbs, Llansaintffraid Glan Conway, who had an experience of forty years in mission and slum work, said his opinion was that the question was to be solved by the clergyman himself working outside his church and in visiting the workingmen and other members of his congregation at a time when they could be found. If this were done, they would fill the churches irrespective of doctrine or service. The church should be bright and clean, the service not slovenly done, and a choir not too good nor too bad. Of course a well filled church depended upon the popu- lation, which was available. He ha.d been driven out of his own parish church because of the music, which, although of a very high class, was not helpful to him. He also objected to the words Bread of Angels," which was exhibited over the altar. During the latter part of the speech the audience became very restless. Mr J. T. Williams, of Llanrwst, complained that the Church had so lew farmers and farm servants connected with it. He lived in a large narish in which there was not a single farmer who was a com- municant, and something must be done to deal with the question. He professed to know his side of the question thoroughly, for he had discussed the matter with Nonconformists, even from Set fawr." The fact was that the farmers did not go to church at all, and he thought a staff of lay readers should be estab- lished to visit them. The farmers had some argu- ments which he could not answer, and, for example, when they pointed out that the parish church was three miles and over from their house. He believed the time had come when the subject should be grappled with. He did not think that the relation- ship of the Church to the State would ever be harmed by its opponents, but he did fear that it would be struck by its friends, for Brutus struck Caesar, not because he did not love him, but because he loved Rome more. Canon Thompson, vicar of Cardiff, who was intro- duced by the Bishop, said for thirty years he had been interested in the solution of the question before the Conference, but as was often the case a man was frequently at a loss to speak of what he knew best; so, too, he hardly knew what to sav. He believed that the parson should be a man of faith, of resource, and of earnestness. Such a man would stimulate similar virtues in the people generally, and he knew of cases where working men had done noble work, and made great sacrifices for the cause of the Church. They wanted a spirit of hopefulness, of brotherly love and kindliness, of faith in their misistry, and with it he was sure the churches would be filled, as they deserved to be, and, as it was the dearest wish of every heart, they should be. (Cheers.) The Rev. Griffith Jones, vicar of Mostyn, urged that there should also be a spirit of co-operation in the laity, and strongly advocated visiting the parish- ioners. If the clergyman did not visit, he could preach until he was black in the face without doin" very much good. He had a good churchwarden, whom he would not exchange for two Marquises of Bute—(laughter)—and if a Patronage Board were established, he did not think anyone should have a seat on that Board unless he had been a Sundav school teacher for at least two years. (Laughter and applause.) The Rev. Canon Fletcher, vicar of Wrexham, said he hoped no word would go outside which would lead to the suggestion that the Church in Wales had failed, because his experience was that the congrega- tions were equally large on both sides of the border. (Hear, hear.) He did not think that the Church had lost its hold upon the masses of the people as some suggested. He believed that the Church had as strong a hold upon the people as the chapel had upoa those who attended the services in the chapels. Perhaps one reason why a larger attendance was not secured in churches, was because the clery preached above the heads of the congregation. He thought plain Church sermons if they were preached, ought to do a good deal. (Hear, hear.) When he was examined, he remembered the Archdeacon who did so, saying to him, Remember young man, you have to furnish one dish of theology to your congregation a week; see that it is properly cooked." (Laughter and applause.) Regarding the character of the services, he believed it was a mis- take to have them of too ornate a character in a Mission Church, which was attended by persons just coming over from Dissent. They might be choked off by it if this were the case. At the same time, where it was desirable, they ought to have the best music, the best architecture, and the best naedle- work possible. (Hear, hear.) The clergy should mix with their congregation, amongst rich and poor, high and low. It was his privilege to have as good a friend among the working classes as Sir Robert Cunliffe was. (Hear, hear.) If the clergyman could not climb down from his tree of respectability, then he bad mistaken his vocation, and should change it at once. (Hear, hear.) The question why did not working men come to Church was a very difficult one, and he could offer no cure, but he did know that some men who worked until twelve o'clock, came to the early celebration clean and tidy, to receive the Bread of Life. When he once held a mission in Wolverhampton, the present Archbishop of York came and asked how the mission was proceeding. He replied that they could get the men to to the Mission Church, but they expressed no desire to be con- firmed. Dr. Maclagan said it was his opinion that many men were cowards, and were afraid to stand up for their. Master. (Applause.) The Rev. T. E. Jones, rector of Hope, said the attendance at church depended very much upon the sphere in which the clergymen worked. There were some clergymen who had been working for years in spheres where it was impossible to get the people to church. He could see a clergyman present who had his church full, and church work was flourishing, but he had been an utter failure in the parish where he was before. He knew the case of another clergyman who had formerly had a full church, and excellent wurk was being done. But he resisted the tithe agitation, and now no one went to his church. It therefore followed that a small attendance at church was not always due to the clergyman. There were some parishes in which the church was dead, and unless a change was made there would be a similar state of things in others. What he advised was that the clergymen of these parishes should be move elsewhere, and no doubt they would succeed better. Some clergymen had told him that they liked their parish very well except on Sunday, because it was so disheartening to see so few at church. In order to gain the people he believed they must remove the clergy in such parishes as he bad indicated, and re- place them by men of greater faith, greater ability, an d greater earnestness. In closing the discussion, the Bishop referring to the speech of the Vicar of Hope, said he also had a knowledge of the parishes of the diocese, and could not accept the description given by Mr J ones. He agreed with Canon Thompson and Mr Stubbs that the attendance at the church would depend upon the clergyman. He reminded them of the words of in- stitution, by which they were given the cure and government of the souls of the parishioners." What was the cure, and how was it discharged ? There were the schools which the clergymen would attend each day in order to see that religious instruction was duly and properly imparted. He did not advise that the clergy should teach, because all were not fitted for it. In his own parish it was his custom to let the master give the lesson in his presence, because be knew the children better. Then there was the Sunday School. He did not ask the clergy to take classes, because the work they had to do on 'Sundays was very great, but they would of course be present in the school. His Lordship also laid emphasis upon the duty of pastoral visitation, reminded the Confer- ence of the saying, A house-going parson makes a church-going people." He agreed with Canon Fletcher that the clergy must mix with and have an earnest sympathy with the people. They wanted to know the men thoroughly, and be able to enter into their lives, if they wished to win them. Regarding the service, he agreed that they did not want an ornate service in the country, ner did he want country choirs to attempt too difficult music. All the services should be reverent. Everyone who went to church ought to be taught to feel that they were before the Almighty. There should be an absence of dust, the surplices should be in order, and the appearance of the clergyman should be such as to enhance this feeling. With regard to preaching, the Bishop quoted with approval the anecdote of Canon Fletcher about the dish being well cooked. The sermon which was successful was not necessarily the eloquent one nor the learned one, but the one which manifestly came from the heart of the preacher. He asked the clergy when they wrote a sermon to put in it something out of their own feelings, and if they did this it would go home. Concerning the government of souls, the Bishop referred to the words of Sir W. Williams Wynn, and the high position he took. The PiLrson- the persona of the parish-was of great influence, and he himself, as a parishioner, felt the influence of his own vicar whom he saw before him. It was the duty of the parson to declare the truth despite the frowns of all, nor was he to vary it to suit the passing moods of the hour. (Hear, hear.) His Lordship having pointed out that tact, by means of which much difficulty could be avoided, might often be used with advantage, proceeded to say that there were a great that there were a great many Nonconformists, and a great deal had been said about proselytising. He did not think the clergy as a body set themselves to win over people fiom other religious bodies. He would have very great hesitation in inviting a person to leave one religious body and join another. (Hear, hear.) That sort of conviction must come itself. He would like to see all join the branch of the Church of Christ which he believed to be the purest, but he would be nervous how he shook any man's faith, and would fear that he would not make a good Churchman, but an indifferent Christian. But this distinction did not apply to those who did not go to Church at all. There was not a parish in which there were not some. He had suggested the answer to this problem, which was the example of the clerizy- man and his influence. (Applamse.) The discussion then ended. THE CHURCH SCHOOLS. The next paper was Elementary schools their difficulties and suggested remedies, e.g. (a) the Arch- bishop's scheme-from the consolidated fund (b) the Manchester schemes share in the school rate and (c) Newcastle scheme-by confederations." The reader was Archdeacon Thomas. Having given the causes of the difficulties which voluntary elementary schools have to meet, the Ven. Archdeacon proposes the following modifications and reforms: The withdrawal of the 17s 6d limit. This limitation was fixed when the cost of elementary education was much lower than at present. By the gradual but continuous addition of new subjects, elementary is now made to trench closely on the pro- vince of secondary education but the former limita- tion of the grant still remans, and it is aggravated by the further condition that the grant shall not exceed the amount of the school income from sources other than the grant itself, Again, the expenditure necessitated on alterations, even in buildings re- cently erected according to plans approved by the Department, is not even allowed to be reckoned in the year's income. Moreover, although the schools are not carried on for profit, but rather partake of of the nature of a charity for the public good, they are nevertheless rated and taxed, and in the cases of London and many large towns, very heavily rated, to their detriment and to the curtailing of their cap- abilities for educational progress. The Archdeacon then proceeds to discuss the various schemes of reform. Concerning the Archbishop's scheme, he explains that it proposes that The State shall pay the salaries of the whole teaching staff in all schools, board and voluntary alike but that in the latter the managers shall contribute towards it 5s per scholar in average attendance, besides the other expenses of maintenance and buildings, averaging from 5s to 12s per scholar and that they shall continue to receive the drawing and fee grants (the annual grant would altogether icease), and retain the appointment and dismissal of the teachers; but with a right of appeal to the Department. It is estimated that the increase of State Aid thus entailed would be iEl,892,357, an additional penny on the Income Tax." Regarding this the Archdeacon adds There is, indeed, a danger in this plan, that some day when there comes .another turn in the political scale, an adverse Government may rule that, inas- much as so large a proportion of the income is derived from public funds, the control also, not merely ordering and appraising of the work done, as is already the case, but the management shall also be in the public and we may suddenly find ourselves deprived of our schools altogether. This is a danger; but I think we may trust to the power and influence of the Church and the right feeling of the people to avert it." Continuing the Archdeacon explains that the Manchester or Rate Aided Scheme proposes to give a share of the school rate to Voluntary as well as Board Schools. It proposes that the rate shall be proportionately assigned to the Voluntary as well as Board Schools, or at least, that they shall be relieved from the rate to the extent of their voluntary subscriptions. In principle, this is a fair solution, and is acted upon in Canada, and is unanimously supported by the Roman Catholics.—The last pro- posal is the Newcastle Scheme, or Confederation. This scheme proposes that all the schools in the district should be under one management, which should have the chief control of the schools, receiving all grants and subscriptions, and from one common purse paying all the expenditure, so as from the sur- plus of some to help out the deficiencies of others. In closing the Archdeacon says The main ques- tion must be faced, and the sooner the better. Is definite religions teaching to be crushed out of our Elementary Schools ? Are parents to be denied the right of having their children taught in accordance with their own religious conscience ? Are our volun- tary schools to be punished, because they do not gave unseetai-ian" teaching? In a word, are onr schools to be preserved in efficiency and permanence ?" Mr Williams, J.P., Llwysog, who opened the dis- cussion, pointed out that the fear of increasing the rates had prevented the formation of School Boards in many places, but if the voluntary schools were to be the cause of an increase in the rates, then he thought the number of School Boards would increase. He was opposed to rate aid, but was in favour of the abolition of the 17s 6d limit. The Rev. T. Ll. Nicholas, rector of Flint, con- sidered it was the plain duty of the present Govern- ment to deal with the questions of the schools. He opposed rate-aid but approved of State-aid, and believed that what would be done would be the abolition of the limit of ITs 6d. Canon Wood Edwards, Ruabon, considered the just and obvious remedy was for the rates to be given proportionately to the Board and the elementary schools according to the average attendance. There were reasons why the salaries of teachers should not be paid by the State, and one was that they might refuse to do work which they might consider beyond that for which they were engaged. He suggested that a grant per head should be made, and this need not be more than 6s. As a matter of fact such a grant in Ruabon would come to 6s 5d per head. A capitation grant of this kind would prove a great help in maintaining the schools, the building being provided by the managers. One manager could be appointed by the Government or the School Board, but he would be one of the sa.me denomination to which the school belonged. He also urged that the managers of voluntary schools should be able to borrow money from the Public Works Loan Com- missioners. (Hear, hear.) This ended the morning sitting. Luncheon, provided by Messrs C. K. Benson and Co., was afterwards provided in a marquee on the Vicarage grounds. THE AFTERNOON MEETING. I The discussion on Elementary schools was con- tinued by the Rev. Hamer Lewis, diocesan inspector who said there were several reasons why voluntary schools should receive help from Government. The question was what that remedy was to be. One con- dition was that it should be such as to cause the slightest amount of friction in those he might cail the enemy. Any scheme which would produce antipathy in the country would be doomed beforehand. There were three schemes before the country, and he though they should confine themselves to them. TliLA question of payment out of the rates was entirely beyond the possibility of consideration. It had been discussed by authorities who could not be gainsaid. The Archbishops and their committee had decided that the idea could no longer be entertained. If they fell upon the rates for further aid, they must have the ratepayers taking part in the management of the schools. The question of con- federation was not inconsistent with the Bill being promoted by the National Society, and based on the recommendations of the Archbishop's committee. The last clause stated that where two er more managers agreed to associate and elect a committee, when approved by the Education Department, the schools might be treated as one school for the pur- pose of the Elementary Education Acts, provided that a Board school should only be associated with a Board school. He need not point out that federa- tion was a thing on which voluntary schools must largely rely. (Hear, hear.) It was of no use for them to discuss matters in a general way unless they crystallised those opinions into something tangible for the benefit of their schools. The whole difficulty centred round one clause of the Bill, that relating to the appointment of teachers. According to the Bill, all the teachers in elementary schools were to be supported mainly by a grant of the Educatoin Department. All other grants were with- drawn, and in place of them they had put before them the suggestion that the teachers of all schools were to be paid mainly by the Government. At least 5s per head on the attendance must be found, as before, by voluntary institutions. That had been produced by the consideration that Board schools had a great advantage over national schools in the appointment of teachers. The School Board had more means to obtain the best teachers in the country, who were rapidly drifting into those schools. There were many examples however of the best teachers who had stuck to the National Schools in spite of the difference of payment. (Hear, hear.) On the Archbishop's com- mittee there was no teacher, and he thought that a very serious omission. The reference made to it in the meeting of the district union of teachers at Leamington, showed the feeling of the teachers with regard to the National Society's scheme. The publication of it had set practically the whole of the younger teachers in opposition to the voluntary method. Any scheme carried in opposition to the people of the country was sure to fail. (Hear, hear.) The Rev. Lloyd Williams, vicar of St. Asaph, said that in Wales half the schools were voluntary, and nearly half of them were church schools. They were taunted by their opponents that some of the voluntary schools had been built by public mouey. The num- ber so built was 1,672 at a cost of £ 312,000. The Government only gave that money to bring out an immense amount from the pockets of churchpeople- a total of £ 1,348,169. How did the 5,081 Board Schools come into existence ? Those schools first borrowed £ 29,411, and now at the end of twenty- five years you would think there would be an end of loans. The amount of loans was however now doubling itself, and in the last seven years had trebled itself. The voluntary subscriptions were only 6s 6d per head on the attendance in Eng- land and Wales, and in Wales only they were 6s lOd. Even now there was free education, the parents were asked to pay 2d Id per child, but in Wales they were only asked 6;d per head. (Cheers.) Besides the 63 6d per head, there was the money spent on new class- rooms, &c., which was not taken into account. It had been said that the Archbishop's scheme would effect not only voluntary schools but also Board schools, which had not asked to be relieved. If the ratepayers were to be consulted, many of them would say they would be glad to be relieved of the rates they had to pay towards the Board schools. (Hear, hear.) At first the ratepayers thought they would not have to pay much. The rates varied from Id in Montgomeryshire to Is lid in Glamorganshire. If the Board schools would benefit by the scheme let them do so, as they certainly deserved it. V?ht had brought the crisis about was the undobted competi- tion there was between the Board and National Schools. The amount paid to the principal teachers I in Board schools exceeded that of the same class of teachers in voluntary schools by no less than JE40 a year. Out of every four principal certificated male teachers in Board schools, one has received iC250 a year, but in the voluntary schools only one in seventeen was paid that amount. It would be well that the best men should not be put under a disadvantage, but they should feel that they were treated as well as in Board Schools, and have the same salaries. With regard to the drawing money from the rates, they knew that the ratepayers owned only one-tenth of the property of the country, as the real property was only one-tenth of the whole property. It was unfair that one-tenth should pay the rates, and the others go scot free. Therefore it was well that the money should come from Imperial sources. (Rear, hear.) Let them not say they were going to federate themselves. They tried that three years ago, and in that diocese they found managers were unwilling to join the federation, if they could get no advantage trom it. Therefore they must more or less depend on the Archbishop's scheme. and throw themselves heart and soul into it. Let all managers of voluntary schools come into one line and march in one body to the House of Commons, and long before they come there they would be ready to say, We grant you your request." (Applause.) The Rev. E. Jones, Llanllwchhaiarn, said he had no objection to popular control, but there was a grow- ing necessity for a complete re-construction of their present method of local rating. That was in itself sufficient reason why they should not make any further charges on local rafes. He thought there would be considerable outcry when they came to de- mand that the teachers should be paid from t4e public funds. Instead of having the salaries paid as suggested there was no reason why the fee grant should not be extended, say to about fifteen shillings. He hoped ail of them who had the welfare of these schools at heart, would try to appreciate the gravity of the situation, so that before next session had passed, they should have a bill relieving the voluntary schools. (Applause.) The Rev. T. Davies having briefly spoken, the Bishop said they might pass a resolution stating that they agreed in the main with the Archbishop's com- mittee's bill, and expressing a hope that assistance would be given to the voluntary schools. He felt that they should not get any assistance for voluntary schools unless the friends of them were united in their action. The Bill had come from representative men in the Church of England, and therefore he thought that it was only a matter of loyalty that they should accept it. (Hear, hear.) The resolution was put and carried unanimously. THE POSITION OF VESTRIES. Mr Llewelyn Hugh-Jones, of Wrexham, read the following paper on The Position of Vestries under the Parish Councils Act Amoii,- -.tll the ques- tions which are interesting the Church at the present day, there is none that comes so frequently and so prominently to the front as the question of the position and rights of laymen in matters ecclesias- tical, and I think that however much we may some- times feel that lay work is shared rather by the few than the many, yet it is the fact that the laymen of this country do desire to have their share and voice in the affairs of their Church—they both know and value their rights and privileges in this respect. Possibly this is due to the antiquity of the vestry, and to our having been accustomed for so many years to take some share—even though but a small one-in Church affairs. The vestry is an institution whose very name shows how our Church and our State have grown up intertwined with one another .from the earliest times. It was, therefore, fitting that after the important change effected last year. the position of vestries should be placed amongst the subjects for discussion at this Conference, more especially as it is I a Conference of which the very key-note is reform. The Local Government Act, 1894, leaves to the ancient parish vestry all its powers, duties, and liabilities so far as relate to the affairs of the Church or Ecclesiastical Charities (section 6.) All its civil powers, duties, and liabilities are by the Act trans- lerred to the Parish Council, or some other authority. The Act contains no definition of what are the powers, duties, and liabilities of vestries relating to the affairs of the Church, and they must be ascer- tained by a reference to the common law and to casual references in various statutes. The Vestry is the assembly of the whole parish, met together for the despatcn of the affairs and.business of the parish. It is summoned by notice signed by the incumbent or a churchwarden, affixed on the doors of every church within the parish for three days prior to the meeting, and including the preceding Sunday. The incumbent has the right to preside, and every rate- payer has the right to attend, whether he resides in the parish or not, and women, provided they are rate- payers, are not excluded. The voting is plural, every ratepayer having one vote up to X-lib rrteable value, and an additional vote up to six for every X25 addi- tional rateable value. The vestry invariably appoints some if not all the churchwardens and a custom for the incumbent to appoint all the churchwardens can- not be upheld. In many places the parish clerk and sexton are by ancient custom appointed by the vestry, though in some places they are appointed by the in- cumbent. The vestry, too, has the right to appoint the organist, although he is subject to the directions of the incumbent. It is important that all these officers should be properly appointed in accordance with the custom and law of the land, for in the case of churchwardens, defects in their appointment may give rise to difficulties in dealing with Church property or ecclesiastical charities of which they are trustees, and in the case of sextons and parish clerks, difficulties might arise from a similar cause in con- nection with their exercising the rights and recover- ing the dues of their respective offices. The fees of the sexton are enerälly settled by order of the vestry, and the consent of the vestry is required to any table of fees of the parson, parish clerk, or sexton fixed by the Church Buildings Act, 1819. The consent cf the vestry is still required to the enlarge- ment, repair, and building of churches, to any addi- tion to or alteration of churches or their ornaments, and to the disposal by the churchwardens of any goods appertaining to the Church. The church- wardens who may be said to be the officers of the vestry, have the right of assigning seats. It is their duty to repair the Church and to maintain and repair closed churchyards. They have the custody of the goods of the Church, the distribution of the c'ffertories (at any rate of the offertories made at the celebration of Holy Communion), and they are trustees of eccle- siastical charities. They are to see that curates are duly licensed that unqualified strangers do not preach, and (if need be) they are to 0 present the minister for non-residence or irregular living. Should the incumbent use nnlawfnl ornaments or fail to observe the directions of the Book of Common Prayer with reference to the performance of the services, rites, and ceremonies ordered by it, or if nny altera- tion in the ornaments or furniture of the Church has been made without lawful authority the church- wardens have no right to interfere, but they may (and it is their duty to do so) present these to the Bishop under the Public Worship Regulation Act, 1874. These officers have also the care of bene- fices during vacancies by death or otherwise. The ecclesiastical office of the churchwarden is unaffected by the provisions of the Local Govern- ment Act, but they are relieved of the civil duties and liabilities with which they were formerly charged; they cease to be overseers, and the duties cast upon them in conjunction with overseers by various Acts of Parliament are transferred to the overseers alone (section 5, sub-section 2.) The legal interest in property vested in the churchwardens alone is not transferred by the Act, but the legal interest in all property vested in the overseers, or in the church- wardens and overseers, other than property con- nected with the affairs of the Church, or held for an ecclesiastical charity, is transferred to the Parish Council. The obligations of churchwardens with respect to repairing and maintaining closed church- yards is transferred to the Parish Council onlv in one event, and that is where the churchwardens, after the passing of the Local Government Act, seek to obtain the repayment of the expenses of such maintenance out of the poor-rate in the manner set forth in the Burial Act, 1855 (section 6, sub-section 1) (b.) That is to say, that, even where closed church- yards have hitherto been maintained aLa repaired at the expense of the poor-rate, the obligation of main- taining and repairing them will not be transferred from the churchwardeus to the Parish Council, unless the churchwardens seek, :le fjth March, 189-1, to recover those expenses out of the poor-rate. The other powers, duties, and liabilities, which are still left to vestries by .the Local Government Act, have reference to ecclesiastical charities. It is possible that questions may arise as to what charities are 'ecclesiast.ic't.l.' The description contained in Section 75 of the charities to which that expression in the Act is to extend only recognises one test of the character of a charity—namely, the purpose for which the endowment is held—thnt is to say, held at the passing of the Act. for this may happen to have been altered by some scheme or Act of Parliament from the purpose for which it was originally given. The description of the purposes, which are to mark charities as ecclesiastical, appears to have been largely taken from the City of London Parochial Charities Act, 1883, Section 5, though it is more csmprelleiisive than the description there given. Under that section the Charity Com- missioners have issued several reports, in whish they have classified as ecclesiastical charities devoted to the following (amongst other purposes) :-Repair of the Church and its ornaments preaching sermons, payment of lecturers, sextons, parish clerks,; and organists). Thanks to the amend- ments introduced into the definition of ecclesiastical charities during the passage of the Bill through Parliament I think we have no reason to complain of its being too narrow. I think that the administra- tion of every charity which can by any means be known to be for the purpose of maintaining the Church, her buildings, services, ministry, or officers, or for the benefit of her members distinguished from the members of other religious bodies, will remain in the bands of the Church's officers. Dole charities which are not for the express benefit of the members of the Church as distinguished by such membership fron- o he lest of the community, will be transferred to C e parish c mncil, and I think every incumbent am churchwarden will be glad to be rid of them. It is !j be noted that the ecclesiastical charities which are still within the purview of the vestry are not confined to charities connected with the Church of England, but include charities for the benefit of Unitarians, Jews, Roman Catholics, Baptists, 1rvingite, Methodists, and other dissenting bodies. The word "charity" in the Act would be held to have the restricted meaning which it has in the Charitable Trusts Acts and would not include for instance charities supported by voluntary contribu- tions or places registered as places of meeting for religious worship. The Act does not in any way extend the charities in respect of which the vestry exercises any functions, nor enlarge the powers of the vestry with reference to them. Those powers are not very extensive. By the Charitable Trusts Act, 1855 (Sec. 44) it is required that a copy of the accounts furnished by the Trustees of Charities to the Charity Commissioners shall in the case of parochial charities be sent to the churchwardens of the parish with which the objects of the charities are identified, and the churchwardens are to present the same at the next general meeting of the vestry, and to insert a copy for public inspection in the vestry minute book. In many places schemes have been settled by tne Charity Commisioners under which vestries have the power of appointing trustees, and in some cases of electing the beneficiaries of ecclesiastical charities, and these powers the vestry will still retain. Whether it is an assembly suited to the needs of the present day is open, I think, to question. Even as regards those matters which are within its jurisdiction, it has not been a success, as witness the loss of many valuable charities, and certainly as a power in forwarding Church work in the different parishes it is a com- plete failure. Now we do not need a general as- sembly of the Church in each parish. The parish is the unit of the Church's organisation, and yet the Churchmen of the parish never meet except when called together by the parson, and as those occasions generally mean a subscription, laymen generally stay away. It is really not creditable to our Church that recently when she was called to a great effort in her own defence-though we have reason to be deeply thankful for the conspicuous success of that effort- it was necessary to set about forming large com- mittees in each parish. There ought to have been, after all these years the Church has existed, in every parish some permanent and well recognised assembly of Churchmen, to which an appeal could have at once been made. Now what ought to be the characteristics of such an assembly. (1) Its con- stituents ought to be sufficiently well detined as to exclude professed enemies of the Church who would attend it. only to subvert its objects. (2) It ought not to be so limited as to exclude the poor, the young the new comer to the parish, the lodgers or the women,—none in fact, who might wish to join the Church or could be useful to her. (3) On the other hand its constituents ought to be sufficiently well de- fined as to make it possible to be the electoral assembly of the Church for if you have an electoral assembly you must have the means of determining with some degree of accuracy, who is to take part and who is not. It sbouldfilan,e the right not only of appointing all the officers of the Church, but also of sending delegates to the ruridecanal chapter. (4) It-s constitution should be the same in every parish— not like the parochial councils or synods whose con- stitution differs in every parish according to the set of rules, which may happen to be introduced there. (5) It should have well defined powers and rights- strictly confined to the temporal affairs of the Church, and without any right of control over the services or ceremonies of the Church except the right of presentment to the Bishop in the case of the introduction of irregularities. It should have even larger rights than the present rights of the vestry over additions or alterations to the fabric or orna- ments of the Church, for these afford a most whole- some check on hasty and ill considered improve- ments, and extreme changes of ritual. On the other hand, we don't want an assembly which is consulted or not at the fancy of the incumbent. It should have a legal existence so that it could be recognised in the ecclesiastical and civil courts. No lay work of any importance involving tlie contributions of the parishioners should be undertaken without its con- sent, and it should have the right to call for the accounts of any lay agency within the parish. Such a meeting should be protected against hole and corner meetings by strict requirements as to the notice convening it, and the time at which it is held. As to the time of meeting we may take a leaf from the Local Government Act, which forbids the parish meeting to be held earlier than six p.m. If such, meetings could be established in every parish it would be possible to found upon them a complete edifice of Church organisation .culminating in the House of Laymen, so that in every parish, in every rural deanery, in every diocese, and in either province there should be a well recognised body or council of laymen who could be appealed to [for sup- I port, for advice, and to take responsibility in Church matters within those respective areas. "Whether in ¡ order to establish such a Church parish meeting the vestry should be ended or mended is a matter on which opinions may differ. In either case an Act of Parliament would be required. In considering the question it must be remembered that as regards all those matters which I have described as being still within the jurisdiction of the vestry, we are for better or for worse still tied to the vestry and nothing but an Act of Parliament can alter i:. I do not think that such an Act of Parliament offers in- superable obstacles to the draughtsman, or that it would meet with great opposition in Parliament. I believe it would be a great benefit to the Church if there were such an assembly established in every paiisli, though I don't imagine for a moment that it would be a panacea of all ills. It migh: appoint the National School managers, and carry on the work of Church defence, temperance. Sunday Schools, cloth- ing clubs, mothers meetings, and local missionary auxiliaries by means of committees, who would annually lay before one or other of its meetings a. report of their year's work. This vvouia :end to unite the workers in different snheres more closely together, and each would be encouraged by hearing what others were doing. To a new incumbout. too, I it would be a great advantage on his entering a parish to find a meeting which he could at once call together, and thus be placed in touch with all the lay woik in the parish. At present a new incumbent practically takes over the parish from his predecessor. Incumbents might come and incumbents might go, but the machinery cf thfc parish should go on for ever, being in fact the Church. At some meetings some portion of the time :?ii_rht be reserved for free and open discussion upon matter? affecting the Church at large or the Church work cf the parish. Of course the aggrieved paii=honer' would come to the front, but much better fiat he should come and vent his grievances in public and have them redressed if they are real, or if they are imaginary have them crushed by the good-humoured chaff or combined opinions of his neighbours, than that he should go about the parish hugging his woes ana spreading misunderstandings. There is nothing to be feared from diherences of opinion, and there if nothing deplorable about a dispute in Church affairs, if only everyone is actuated by the sincere desire tc do the best thing in the best way. and tu credit their neighbours with being actuated by at least as good motives as their own. Ths cxainple of n. healthy difference of opinion, carried by fair and legitimate means to a legitimate end, is one that the world if much in need of at the present day. The incumbent would End in these meetings an excellent opportunity of getting on good terms with his parishioners, of understanding them, and they him. In th3 hands of a tactful and patient parish priest tney would be a more powerful means of influence than a sermon or a bible class. A parson has zuauy opportunities oi talking to his parishioners, too few of iearuing their opinions and hearing them discuss matters from their own point of view. Should any change be made in the direction of giving to the parishioners any limited right of veto upon the presentation to the cure of souls within the parish, the parish meeting would afford a ready instrument by which it might b3 ex- pressed. How exactly such an is to bc hroght into being more experienced heads than mine must say. but I venture to assert that nm!t to the requirements the clergy must be true to their ministry and to the doctrines of the Prayer-book there is nothing upon which the welfare of the Church in future more depends than upon the interest and responsibility which laymen take in her work. Hiw this is to tie increased and developed is a matter wen worthy of the earnest consideration of both clergy and laity. The President, after waiting Rome inmates for others to begin the discussion, said he thought ;.herc was a vestries' bill prepared last session iu wn.cli t1:lf prominent idea was, he believed, the same as Mr Hugh-Jones had so ably brought before them. The old vestries had become, through lapse of time, of little use in church work, aud now legal powers and temporal work had been largely taken away by the Parish Councils Act. They had to consider whether the situation afforded by the partial removal of this oi l institu- tion was not a good opportunity for building up something new. (Hear, he".)..) The real point was, who were they goiug to get to chose this new body, which he understood Mr Hugh Jones thought should be elective. Were they going to have ail the young people in the parish who wc-ie Church workers, as well as the ladies ™nd men, and what would be the test for a vote ? He did not like the idea of making any sacrament a qualification. lie had not the slightest objection to their electing uilicers to deal with temporal matters.—Cauoii Roberts said ho would like to refer to the working of such a council in his parish. The members Let to be attendant?, but not necessarily oil, of the churches in the parish. Un the executive committee all had to be regular communicants. He could honestly recommenù such a council as tnat to a. parish. They were building .1 schoolroom and were responsible, and were the guarantors. He could nof. think of zinythin., more hopethan an incumbcnt trying to work a parish without the co-operation ot the people. (Hear, hear.) Thv. very tact of such :1 meeting being held would keep them more up to the mark. His mind was open as to whether there should be a new legal body established. Canon Fletcher said that ii any parishioners were voters the Nonconformists might come in and interfere in purely church matters. If only communicants were voters they would throw up their position as a National Church.—Mr Hugh- Jones said they must have some rule by means of which persons who were not church members siio,.ild not be allowed to attend. He certainly did not think there was need for fear that "Nonconformists would wish to try to interfere in Church matters. The assembly he suggested would have nothing to dc with spiritual matters, except so far as a vestry had control over church edifices. Canon Wynne Edwards said they were now re stricted to ecclesiastical parishes, and there woult! hardly be the same objection to the restriction of tbe ecclesiastical electorate to communicants, or to those who had declared themselves not to be of any other denomination. (Cheers.) Mr J. Darlington, Chirk, said it seemed :o him that to interfere with the powers of the vestry might be tempting Providence as it were with regard to the position of the Church in the parish. He thought it would be very unwise to put spiritual affairs into the hands of an elective body such as Mr Hugl- T:nes had foreshadowed. He thought they should e in their parishes what use they could of the present legal position of the parishioners and the vestry if the parish. He thought to further the work oi tho Church upon thclegal position of the vestry they might have the council that Canon Roberts had suggested called into operation in every parish to assist in carrying out the details that Mr Hugh-Jones had spoken of. He thought theic must be two bodies theiega.Ione and a body constituted voluntarily. Then without interfering by Act of Parliament they could add to the present legally constituted bodies the Church Council or whatever they might be pleased to termit to deal with the other details ilr ltln<<h- Jones had suggested. Another speaker having addressed the meeting ih* discussion closed. The President thought it desirable tc have the opinions of those present whether the Conference should be held every two years cr every year. Archdeacon Thomas said it was a difficult thing to organise a conference year after year, and after a few years the subjects got rather worn. Tho President would have the power to summon a con- ference for any special object, such as when a Bill was intoduced into Parliament, or on any special questions the Archbishops thought right. There had been a much better attendance at the conference than he remembered at any ether, and there had been stronger interest in the subjects. Mr Wynne Jones said that at first the conference was biennial for some years. There WII. a difficulty in finding ermnoii i- wlnr- a „,i 3 aiiu speakers yeir after year.—Mr J. ° 0. Pugh.Cc.weo thought the Conference should be hjld a.mu?ify, M there were some stirring times before them. Mr Gibson, Buckley, believed that once a year was i:ot too often to hold the Conference. He suggested that all the papers should be printed and distributed, so that they could be replied to more rea(1ily.-CaJlon Fletcher was in favour of having the Conference triennially. He thought some members were not aware how much work there was to prepare for it — One of the lay members proposed that some time should be set apart for the hr. men by themselves.— The Rev. H. Holbech said he was strongly in favour of tne annual Conference. With regard to finding subjects of genera] interest, if the Church Congress could meet every year and find the subjects, sureir the Conference could do the anc,-Canon Wynne Edwards thought that if it were possible to and the. places for the delegates, he thought r.e woul'd be in favour of an annual meeting.—Mr Gibson moved that the executive committee should endeavour te arrange for a Conference next vepr—Tho President said he was delighted to hear th-it the laymen appreciated the Conference. Most of them had expressed themselves in favour of an annual conference, and it being so he did not think the clergy would raise objections, although it took several days of their time. The resolution proposed by Mr Gibson was carried. Archdeacon Thomas proposed a vote of thanks to the Vicar of W" rexham and the members of the local committee, and esnici- ally to the local secretaries. Mi Ll. Hu"h-Jones *.nr> the Rev. L1. Wynne-Jones. He said thlre were vaine places where the Conference had been held and there were five or six others in which it might take place. The resolution having been passed amidst cheers, a vote of thanks was given to the inhabitants of Wrexham and neighbourhood for their hospitable. reception of the delegates. Colonel Standish Hoare proposed, and Canon Fletcher seconded, a. vote of thanks to the president, which was heartily accorded, and the conference came to an end.

GREAT PUBLIC MEETING.

ST. ASAPH; : DIOCESAN CONFERENCE.