The Welshman

f T.ANKUA- LOGAL BOARD ~OP HEALTH. l At a meeting of this Board held on Saturday last at the Town Hall, there were present—Messrs. B. Jones in the chair, R. Glasoodine, H. W. Nevill, D. Evans, R. B. Jonp, W. Rosser, J. George, R. Harries, R. T. Howell, W Thomas, and C. W. Nevill. I The minutes of the last meeting were read and Termed. The vouchers for payments then ordered were examined The balance in the Treasurer's hand was announced to be L30 18s 7d to the credit of the Estate account; to the credit of the District fund S2,260 14s Id, in which it BP- pears that it included interest on Douglas's account at five per cent., which should not be charged against the Board. The minutes of the Highway Committee of the loth were read and confirmed. The only items it contained was a statement that the Surveyor proposed to widen the road from Greenfield Chapel to the Iron Works within a week, and that the expenses of the reppirs of highways during I the last fortnight including manual labour, amounted to £ 18 0s 6d The minutes of the Sanitary Committee of the 16th mst. I were read. Mr. R. B. Jones opposed their confirmation. He did not approve the report relating to the building sites at Green- field, nor the Bury-street plans. After some general observations, the minutes were amended and passed as follows 1 he plan of John Powell to build a house at the Booth was approved. The plan of Douglas and Co. for the Roman Catholic Chapel at Greenfild was passed, subject to the drainage being at a depth of two feet, and that the boundary line at the back be removed ten feet, with a view to the formation of a back lane not less than ten feet in the clear, and in this case with a view to the proper drainage of the locality. Mr. G. Thomas' plan for a street at Glascorte was sent back for correction and Captain Ross' plan for a street at Cae- Glassion was referred to the Clerk and Surveyor to report thereon. The minutes of the Bye-law Committee were then dis- eased. Mr. R. B. Jones called attention to the resolutions of September 18th, 1858, and October 16th, 1858, which deter- mined that all new buildings should be under the direction of the Board, both as to quantity and quality of the mate- rials used in the building. The second resolution directed the Surveyor to report on all buildings erected within twelve months previously. He (Mr. Jones) urged the necessity of their Surveyor superintending the erection of all buildings, and that he should be paid by means of fees for extra labour. Mr. Itosser and others dissented from these views, and thought it was not the province of the Board to do the work of architects they had to do with the plans and specifications only, and not with the materials of the buildings. Mr. W. H. Nevill suggested that proof sheets of the bye- laws should be sent to the members before they were printed. It was then resolved to refer the above resolutions to the Bye-law Committee, with a view to prepare a bye-law on the subject; the Committee to report to the next Board on the whole question of the bye-laws. Mr. R. T. Howell, rose and said In bringing forward a resolution, which, in effect, is that of this Board, taking the initiative in procuring for L!anelly a Charter of Incor- poration, by saying that the necessary steps had better be taken by the Inhabitants with that view, I may state that I approach the subject with a great deal of diffidence, for I feel my inability to grapple, so successfully as I should wish, with a subject so important in its bearings, and so comprehensive in its results. I will however do my best to lay the subject before you for, although I have read much upon the principle of municipal government, my usual engagements have precluded me from devoting as much time to the subject as I could desire. However, I will do my best. A corporation is a political or civil insti- tution comprising one or more persons, by whom it is conducted according to the laws of its constitution. It may j consist of one person, or more than one-sole or in the aggregate. It does not lose its identity by means of a j change of its members. The whole of the political system L is made up of a concatenation of various corporations, ) political, civil, religious, social, and economical. A nation itself is a greatorporation, comprehending all the others, the powers of which are exercised in legislative, executive, and judicial acts, which, when confined within the scope of and line according to the forms presented by the constitution are considered to be the acts of the nation and not merely those of the official organs. Corporations are created, either by prescription or by charter, but most commonly by the latter. The British, and most European governments are corporations by prescription: all the American governments are corporation, by charter, that is to say their constitu- tions and so private corporations may be established in either of those ways. The improvements, among the moderns, in civil liberty, arts, and commerce, took their rise in private corporations. We may read in history of the manner in which municipal corporations and communities contributed to the amelioration of the condition of the great mass of the population in the western part of Europe. I will read a short extract from Blackstone, who says As all personal rights die with the person, and as the necessary terms ot investing a senes of individuals, one after anotner, with the same identical right, would be very inconvenient if not impracticable, it has been found necessary, when it is for the advantage of the public to have any particular rights kept on foot and continued, to constitute artificial persons, who may maintain a perpetual succession, and enjoy a kind of legal immortality. These artificial persons are called bodies politic, bodies corporate, or corporations, of which there is a great variety subsisting for the advance- meat of religion, of learning, of commerce, in order to maintain, entire and for ever, those rights and immunities which, if they were granted only to those individuals of which the body corporate is composed, would, upon their death, be utterly lost and extinct. After a corporation is so formed and named, it acquires many powers, rights, capacities, and incapacities, which we are next to consi- der. 1. To have perpetual succession. 2. To sue or be sued, implead or be impleaded, grant or receive by its cor- porate name, and do all other acts as natural persons may 3. To purchase lands and hold them for the benefit of themselves and their successors. 4. To have a common seal." But I will not attempt to wade through the whole of my notes that I have made, or I should weary you. Blackstone defines municipal law to be "a rule of civil conduct prescribed by the supreme power in a state, com- tnanding what is right, and prohibiting what is wrong," and Mr. Sergeant Merewether gives a long legal disserta- tion on the same subject, the facts of which are, that, originally, the country was divided between rhires and ( boroughs the people into bond and free. The former had few, if any, civil rights; the latter enjoyed all the privi- leges of the State and bore all the burdens. They submit- ted themselves to the law by taking, in the public court, before the o Mcers of the King, whether Shire-reeve o'; Port-reeve, the oath of allegiance. They gave pledges for their good conduct, and they were enrolled for the sake of publicity, for the security of their privileges, and for the j imposition of the public pecuniary payments of Scot, and the performance, in due rotation, of the public personal duties of Lot. As neither of these were or could be im. posed on any but householders—they only, being free sworn, and enrolled, were, in the counties at large, the liberi et legales homines eomitatus; and, in the boroughs, the burgesses. When the distinction between bond" and 1, free" ceased, the rights lost their substantial importance. In point of practice, in the counties, and in many of the i boroughs, as well as in these charters, the inhabitants generally—subject to their being householders, sworn, en- rolled, and paying Scot, and bearing Lot- were substituted for the old and more limited class of freemen. The abuses existing in municipal corporations had, for more than two ( centuries been a matter of constant and nearly universal complaint. Any general remedy was, however, imprac- ticable, while abuses in the representation of the people in Parliament were to be maintained. The passing of the Reform Act led to the appointment of a commission under the great seal, to twenty gentlemen, to proceed with the utmost dispatch to inquire as to the existing state of the municipal corporations in England and Wales. These commissioners in their general report remarked: 41 We feel it to be our duty to represent to your Majesty that the existing municipal corporations of England and Wales neither possesses nor deserve the confidence nor re- spect of your Majesty's subject?, and that a thorough re- form must be effected before they can become what we hambly submit to your Majesty they ought to be-usef-ii and efficient instruments of local government." Mr. Booth was the commissioner who visited Llanelly, and from his report, with extraneous information, I learn that this borough has no charter, but is a borough by prescription. Two Courts Leet are held annually by the steward of the lordship of Kidwelly, and the jury are selected by him from among the burgesses present, and are sworn in by him. .The members of the corporation are—the portreeve and all indefinite number of burgesses. I should but tire you were .1 to wade through the document of Mr. Booth suffice it for me to bring to your recollection that, in the year 1807, an Act of Parliament was passed for enclosing the waste lands within the boroughs. Prior to the passing of this act .the burgesses possessed a right of common or pasturags over the w8,te land, which, however, yielded but little profit to the persons interested therein, ami the rents and I profits were directed to be applied to the improvement of the port of Llanelly. This, gentlemen, is a familiar subject to me. Many years have passed by since the subject of the mode in which the trusts of this act had been administered by the 1 ruktres for the burgesses was submitted to the consideration of the chamber of commerce. I have a pleasing recollection of the part which devolved on myself, month after month, and of the active and talented manner in which my then colleague in that institution conducted to a satisfactory because highly beneficial termination sub- jects, some of which I had the satisfaction to introduce and to support to the utmost of my humble ability. Applica- tions, one after another, for funds towards some public and useful purpose and suggestions of public improvement were made, month after month, to the Trustees, by an association of which they did not seem 'to comprehend the nature, but which they did not dare to treat with entire con- tempt because it was backed by the force of public opinion and of right. When the public health act was passed, it was at once seen that the clause empowering inquiry into local acts would be the fortunate means by which tne Tius- tees, who seemed to regard themselves irresponsible, might be brought to account. We are all familiar with the mode by which the trusts of this corporate property were trans- ferred to the Local Boar i bv the provisional order of the General Board of Health, confirmed by Act of Parliament. I allude to this, because I kno.v full well that at the time (about the year 1S50) there was apprehension that the rates of the town would be considerably increased indeed, I have only recently heard the remark, that the promotes of 'he petition in favour of the Public Health Act had mis-led the town as to the expenses which were to be incurred by its introduction, and that the same apprehension exists at the present moment in relation to a municipal corporation. Thig I deny, and am prepared to support the denial M' proofs, which are ready at hand ;-but I liough. I tJ!' 'vn■, will pardon Ibis digression. Mr. Booth's repoi t cferrly 1 showed that the old Trustees ha t regarded themselves asihe I objects of improvement, instead of the town, and that the Corporation of Llanelly neither possessed nor deserved the confidence or respect of the general inhabitants. The result of this inquiry was that, when, on the 5th of June, i 1835, Lord John Russell brought in the Bill for the Regulation of Municipal Corporations, the borough of LlaneUy was included in Schedule A; and it was hailed .T m as an important benefit to the town. The bill passed the House of Commons but, by some secret and importan! influence, the Lords spiritual and temporal thought fit, in their wisdom, to strike out Llanelly, and five other boroughs, from the bill. On the 31st of August in thr I same year Lord John Russell presented a petition to the House of Commons from Llanelly, praying to be included in the bill. Llanelly the largest and most considerable of the six boroughs struck out by the Lords, was restored .by the Commons in their amendments, but the inexorable Lords, who had too strong a predilection for the rem- nants of feudalism, struck it out again consequently, Llanelly was excluded from the bill. (The Chairman I am afraid some of our old Trustees had something to do with that. ") I regret the part taken by some influential and respected inhabitants on this question. I lament when I reflect on the sometimes inert and otherwise active sup- port which they gave to the old burgesses, who deputed one of their body to give evidence at the bar of the House of Lords; and no surprise can be felt at the fact of some of the honest and independent inhabitants of the town being dissatisfied. Much was said but, as is usual where there is much talk, little was done. Immediately after the passing of the bill, it was proposed to send a petition to the King in Council; but I cannot learn that anything was done until about December, 18-56, or January, 1857, when a petition from the inhabitant householders of this borough was pre- sented by Mr. Lewis, of Stradey; and after due notice in the London Gazette it was considered by the Privy Council on the 28th of February, 1857, and they determined not to grant, for the present, a Charter of Incorporation for Llanelly. From the legal recognition of abuse, corpora- tions had become great practical evils, for exclusive and irresponsible bodies are inconsistent with the spirit of the day, and at variance with the first principles of the Con- stitution. It was absolutely necessary that the municipal institutions should be made subservient to the growth of feelings, the development of principles, and the changes of every kind produced by time. The Municipal Incorpora- tions Act was the result of such a state of things, und most properly recognises the original principle of the reciprocity prope. 'Tln and benefit, creating the qdalification for a rg.?' to burgess-ship. In fact, whatever may be the difference of opinion entertained as to the practical details of that statute, it is, in principle, a measure of constitutional restoration, and one that will ultimately be attended with immense benefits. The advantages which will be conferred on the town of Llanelly from the application of this Act are suggested in a great measure by the observations which I have already made. The corporation at present existing in our borough is incompatible with the spirit of the age, and the progress which the town has made during recent years in popuiation, intelligence, and wealth. The objects of municipal government have been generally defined to be the appointment and superintendence of police, the admi- nistration of justice, the lighting and paving, and, generally, the good government of the borough. The Municipal Re- form Act renders the functionaries of municipalities eligible by and responsible to the persons whose interests they are appointed to watch over and protect. I feel naturally a certain restraint in referring to the administration of jus tice, lest I might be supposed to reflect on those gentlemen to whom we are so much indebted for the time and atten- tion which they have devoted to such important public du- ties-and of which duties they would be considerably re- lieved, but not discharged, were the Act applied to Llan- elly, as, although the Act extends the power of borough justices, it leaves that of county justices unimpaired. The Mayor and ex-Mayor would necessarily be justices of the peace in and for the borough but it does not follow that there need be a commission of the peace by which other inhabitants might be appointed justices of the peace. For my part, I am not unwilling to confess my awn impatience of that feeling of jealousy which exists in the minds of some of the smallest country 'squires, who would keep aloof from the contaminating influence of commerce. The day has arrived when men should be measured not by the weight of J their purses, nor by the extent of their broad acres, but by | their intelligence and moral conduct-and I am persuaded that when towns reach the population and opulence of Llanelly, it is full time to assert the rifcht of self-govern- ment, and independence of those blighting and humiliating feelings which proceed only from those of the rural gentry who are incapable of appreciating the march of intelligence and mind, and who would treat with a certain measure of contempt the pacific honours of trade and commerce and while I would assert a worthy independence, and stand out in defence of my order, I would do all in my power to re- move the prej udices supposed to be fused in the separate interests of the two populations. Gentlemen, I know no town which requires the application of the Municipal Re- form Act so much as Llanelly. There is not a single ma- gistrate resident it; and were it not for the two gentlemen who are members of this Board, the inconvenience of detain- ing offenders, and the incidental expense would be seriously felt and acknowledged. Beyond this, in our local assem- blies, and in all public questions, we require an acknow- ledged head and I am persuaded that there will be found a supply of good men and true. who will, in their turn, serve the honourable office of Mayor of this town without fee or without reward. I had at first, when I intended bringing forward this motion, purposed declining ever holding any office of honour or profit under the Corporation of Llanelly, lest 1 mignt be charged with vain glory in bringing the matter forward; but in obedience to the advice of friends whose opinions I value, I now take a different course, and assert boldly that the office of Chief Magistrate is one to which I will aspire, and which I trust I may be considered by my fellow-townsmen worthy to hold. (Applause.) I would add that I would hold out the office as a post of honour to which the humblest apprentice or clerk in the town might aspire as a reward for perseverance, industry, and frugality. The Mayor, or presiding officer, should necessarily be selected with care and caution, as holding a highly responsible situation. The office is all-important in other respects. The Mayor, as the elected representative of the town for the time being, takes precedence in the town by law, and thus disarms all petty jealousy, which frequently interrupts, if it does not prevent, the progress of matters of great public importance. With respect to the police, I am clearly and decidedly of opinion that if it be found, as 1 believe it will be found, more economical to continue the rural police, the Town Council would do so; and I would therefore state that there need be no additional expense incurred under this head. There would be an economy and an advantage in availing ourselves of the machinery devised by the county of which we form a part, and to which we contribute our rates. With respect to the duties of Town Clerk: beyond the implied duties of the office, the special duties are neither so considerable nor so onerous as to justify the expectation of an increase in the salary now paid to the clerk of the Local Board'of Health, the same person should discharge the duties of the two offices. The business now usually transacted by the estate committee would, in the event of the contemplated change being ca- ried out, be conducted by the Town Council. I cannot see that there will be any grounds for increased expense in respect of any advance in the salary of the clerk, nor in any other way beyond the expense of a charter of incorporation, which I have reason to believe will not be considerable, unless there be strong opposition offered to the petition to the Queen in Council. I have received a letter from our borough member. Mr. Morris, on the subject, and although I am not quite cleat as to what he means, he says that the expences of the privy council would be £500; those of the Home office 9210. Whether the latter charge would be made exclusive of the former or whether it would be merged therein, making, in the aggregate, JMOO, I am not in a posi- tion to state. However, the expense altogether would not be great, unless, as I have stated, there happened to be strong opposition. I am deeply impressed with the import- ance of the measure I advocate. I feel assured it will be a boon to the town—that it will confer on it a social and public status among the boroughs in England and Wales which at present it does not possess. It will give us the right and privilege of self-government, without control, and without being subjected to any central authority. It will con- fer a generil name by which we may take hold of, and grant lands. It will have-and that view is by no means a minor one —the effect of cOllfirming; if confirmation be necessary, the tenure of the public property; and of maintaining to ourselves and children, all our rights, privileges, and possessions, by perpetual succession. Another great improvement which I see looming in the distance is a public market place for the borough. No one who walks out on a market day and beholds the crowded streets, and numerous standings in chaos round about, will gainsay that this is a want. By the 50th section of the Local Government Act, local boards in non corporate districts, with the consent of the owners and ratepayers of the district (a cumbrous and inconvenient means) or in corporate districts, shall, with the consent of two-thirds of the Local Board, have the power to provide a market-place and otber convenience and it is of import- ance that such property should be held in trust for its purpo- ses by a corporate body with perpetual succession. The same remark will apply also to the tenure of public build- ing, schools, and memorial erections, with respect to which it is essentially necessary and important that there sLojld be no chance of lapse, or of becoming involved by reason of the incapacity or inability of individual trustees. I have already said that Llanelly was deemed worthy of being included in the original Bill, at a period when the population in the previous census in 1831, numbered 7,616. This was the population of the pariah and in 181-5 the parochial population including that of the borough, numbered 13,516, having nearly doubhd in twenty years. The population of the borough alone, in 1831, was, I believe, 4,00t) odd in 1851 it was 8,568, more than double. The number of houses, according to Ir. Booth's report, in 1830 was £ 10 and under X20, 48 £ 20 and upwards, 8 total, 110 and upwards 56. In 1851 the number of £10 houses and upwards was, I think, 489. In the register of voters for 1832 were entere. d ;Elo householders for Llanelly, 125; in 1850 over 250. From these figures we deduce the conclusion that LUnelly has greatly increased in popula- tion and importance: that, in 1831, Llanelly, with a popula- tion of only 4,000 persons within the borough, was deemed worthy of beinu; included in the Municipal Reform Bill; -in(I that the further conclusion is only obvious, that, with a population at the present moment of nt least 10,000 in the torough alone, it not onlv is desirable, but it is absolu- tely necessary that there should be a change in the corpora. tion which at present exists. One argument against rtiy j motion is/ that we are not yet ripe for the change: that we are not yet sufficiently matured to be entrusted with the management of our own affairs. But let me asic Whilt i j is the criteiion of fitness? Is it population? The small orough of Tenby, of Llandovery, of Neath, and of Cardigan, j in Vales, and numerous other small bofouhs in England, re mended in the Municipal Act, and I am convinced they have derived much advantage from it. In 1831, the population of the borough of Tenby was 1942 and in 1851 it WAS ZJsZ. In the borough of Llandovery 1831, the popu- lation was 1, ,6. In Neath, 1831, the population of the borough was 4,0-3 and there were 132 householders at £10 and upwards. In 1831; the population of the borough of i Cardigan was 2,725, with 37 honses at JEtO ami upwards. Iii the same year the population in the following boroughs was as follows Monmouth, 4,91G New pott, Montnout h- shire, 7,062; Swansea, 13,256; with .599 houses at i;io !'nd u pwards; Carmarthen. 9,9,5,5; Haverfordwest, 4,!39;! anu Cardiff, 4,187, with 275 bouses at £ 10 and the population, however, increasing three-fold in 20 years, numbers 18,294 in 1851. In the borough of Llanelly, as [ have already stated, the population in 1831 was 4,000 odd. The whole number of tenements in llanelly, was, in ISal, as follows C5 and upwards, 11,43; under Ei, 1,110; xlu and upwards, 489. I have thus far attempted to that there is no ground of apprehension for much, if any. increased expense, from the application, to Llanelly, of the j L I.,J" 'l)i .¡.}t 't. Municipal Refrom Act. I believe the question of expense will rest entirely with the To «n Council; I am further con- vinced that this fear of increased taxation-of heavier burdens-is the only grouud for opposition. I feel that I am advoi-ating a measure which, at the present moment, is unpopular, on accont of this apprehension of the imposi- tion of heavier rates, but I trust I have removed such an impression from your minds. Whether, however, I have suc- ceeded in doing so or not I would urge that the measure which I advocate stands far above and beyond such views. The power of money is doubtless great-great beyond con- ception but there are some things which money cannot buy, which the most powerful reasoier cannot supply by acquire- ment. Who can support patriotism, or the love of country, pa- rental or filial love and duty, by acquirement? What money value can be placed on the love of liberty and independence which antimates the breast of an English patriot ? I con- demn that vaunted liberty which has been discribed by By- ron as the wish, in man, to have no mastrr, but his mood. I abominate that prating cf equal rights which man never knew But there is a liberty, there is a freedom, which, precious as life, havebeen secured to us by the institutions of our land, have been handed down through a long and unbroken vista of years, and have earned for our country the admiration and regard of every civilised nation under the sun. (Hear.) Foreign statesmen and politicians, experi- encing the evils of centralisation, have expressed their ad- miration of our corporate institutions, and an eminent politi- cal writer has'declared that the English is the only natior, where political and civil liberty are the direct end of its institutions. The resolution which I am about so submit to you should not therefore, be met entirely by a question of cost. I suggest no novelty. I seek only to restore to its purity the corporation of Llanelly, which has existed by prescription. I desire that it should become a borough by charter, in order that we may obtain (as has been saiby Mr. Serjeant Mereweather) that system of municipal ?o. vernment which deeply founded in the early principles of uur law, and connected with the maxims and analogies of our constitution, has at least the merit of consistency and the practical benefit of simplicity. (Hear, hear ) I regret that a subject so important should, as I feel it has, have suffered at my hands from my inability to treat 'it as it deserves but I deemed it my duty, in bringing the motion before you, & through you to the public, to treat the subject historically, both as regards municipal corporations in general and the history of the present question in particular. The motion which which I have to propose is this That this Board is of opinion that the necessary steps should be taken to prepare a petition, from the inhabitant housholders of this borough, to the Queen and Council, for a Charter of Incor- poration. in accordance with the 111st section of the Muni- cipal Incorporation Act." Mr. R. B Jones said he would second Mr. Howell's motion with great pleasure. He thought Mr. Howell had clearly established the propriety of petitioning the Queen in Council for a charter of municipal incorporation, and he could conceive of no valid reason against such a step. They had remained too long without it. The fact that the House of Commons would have admitted them in Lord John Russell's bill in 1835 was a sufficient reason for the petition for a charter of incorporation, which would give them the control of their own affairs. He then spoke of the present anomalous position of the town with regard to a local governing head. He believed that a corporation would relieve them from this anomalous position and would advance the interest of the town at large. In no town was the damaging influence exercised by private interests greater than Llanelly. They were practically exercising the func- tions of a municipal corporation without a legal right to do so. A prescriptive corporation existed at the present who from apathy-or it might be ignorance-allowed the Board to exercise those fnn ctious. They were in the posi- tion of holding property which did not belong to them. The property might revert, as matters now stood, to the old Trustees. They held possession of the Town Hall on suf- ferance, so they did the pig market and the cattle market, and it was in the power of the corportion to disinvest the Board of this property, and the sooner this anomalous posi- tion of the Board was put an end to the better. He re- membered when the property was held by the old Trustees that they guzzled up the whole of it. He did not mean to say that all of them did the same, but many had done so. He now came to the question of power to purchase land- which was one of great importance at present. Any land which they might purchase might be taken to, by prescrip- tive right by the old corporation. They had borrowed money to construct a pig-market which might be taken from them, and the Board had no power whatever to levy tolls; there were only two persons that could-Earl Cawdor and the Portreve of Llanelly. They had spent money in different ways and were in the same position with all of them, and he had long felt the necessity for some legally organised local body to remedy these defects and he was convinced that a charter of municipal corporation was the best thing they could have as to the expense he could not see how it could be greater than under the present regulations. He thought the business might be done with the same officers, and, under a municipality, it would be done legally. lie feared that the old corporation would bring the Board by and bye to account, unless it was avoided by a municipal corporation, and ho would place it seriously before them that they should do something to get out of that anomalous posi- tion. The Chairman said if they did come to any conclusion at all they must simply recommend the subject to the inha- bitants. For himself, if the people of Llanelly thought a charter of incorporation beneficial—and he thought it would be-be would give them all the assistance irijhis power to obtain it. Mr. C. W. Nevill said that he had attended the meeting in the hope of learning some information which might con- vince him of the desirability of such a step proposed by Mr. Howell. In reference to the increased powers which was said they would obtain, he could not see that they would obtain any additional powers. Re must confess that ho was reasoning from very imperfect data, but his views had not been altered by anything which Mr. Howell had said. He believed that they now held all the powers necessary for practical purposes If any attempt was made to go back to the system of the old trustees, then he thought it would be desirable to obtain a charter of incorporation. He did not, however, agree with Mr. Jones that the property would revert to the old burgesses. Mr. R. B. Jones observed that he did not say that it would go back to the old trustees; he said they simply held their property on sufferance, and that they had not the pro per control over the application of the funds. Mr. Nevill said he had misunderstood Mr. Jones, and con- tinued—In reference to the powers to purchase land they had those powers under the Local Board of Health Act, but there was no land wanted except for a market place, and he thought they had sufficient powers to get that-but if not, that might be a sufficient reason for obtaining a charter of incorporation as ti the borough magistracy it was one that he looked upon with favour, and he would be as happy to sit there as a borough magistrate as a county magistrate. He did not think any inconvenience arose from the present state of things, and he did not think the town was willing to incur the expense for a municipal corporation. The question of expense was one of the chief objections to it. If they could be assured that there would not be any m" creased expenditure then they would perhaps prefer a charter of incorporation. There would be first the preliminary ex- penses, and then the current expenses. He believed it would be E-500 to obtain the charter. This was the in- ference ftom Mr. Morris's letter. That miht include the whole or it might not; it did not appear quite clear that it would be, but ceatainly not less than E-500. He had been informed by the Clerk that Hartlepool had cost t047 19d lOd exclusive of any other expenses that they might be subject to. Mr. R. B. Jones said he could easily conceive why Mr. Brown tried to swell the costs of a charter, but he had been advised by his parliamentary agent that a charter of incor- poration had been obtained through him for 1270, and he had this information from a reliable source. Mr. Nevill continued that the current expenses con- templated by the act were the payment of a ma3 orl a _?on" Cjerk, Treasurer and police. He imagined that the town clerk would be much the same as at present. There need be no increase in reference to that, but there being two offices, he feared that it would be made a loophold for an advance of salary. There would be councilmen, who would like office on the same ttrms as Mr. Howell, had stated with great credit to himself without any emolument whatever. But there would be another loophole for an increased expense, as gentlemen, who might object to the office, would be obliged to serve. With regard to the police, he did not see his way clear. One of the first acts of the eorporation would be to appoint a watch committee, and if they had a watch com- mittee they must have a borough police. One fourth of the co,t of which wou'd be borne by the country but they would first require, that the police be kept up to a certain state of efficiency. The treasurer, the mayor and police would he though create loopholes for an increased expense. The town objected however to the Local Board, because it had increa- sed their expenses, but he thought that reasoning was false for the town bad received more than its moneys' worth in the great benefits that had been conferred upon them in sanatory and other improvements. But he did not think, that the town would consent to open any more loopholes for further increase of expenses, and he should move an amend- ment to negative the proposition of Mr. Howell. Mr. W. H. Nevill declined voting on the question, and would not give his opinion on the subject, as he thought a public meeting would be the proper place to express his viel's. I Mr. H. B. Jones was satisfied, that the Local Board was the proper authority to take the preliminary steps The possession of the public property conferred that riht, and he did not see that they would require a watch com- mittee as Mr. Nevill had said for they had already an equiva- lentin the lighting committee. The Chairman said they certainly had, so far as the pro- perty was concerned, a right to take steps to get out of the anomalous position they were in. At present there was no local head to take charge of such property except the vicar and churchwardens. The same remark applied to public buildings. The Athenaum, for instance, was at present held by those whose heirs it would go to after their death. Mr. Rosser, as a member of the Board, would not offer an opinion but he felt much obliged to Mr. Howell for the information he had given them, especially as to the right of holding public property. That, to him, was the most weighty point which Mr. Nevill had not touched upon. And he quite agreed that it would be for the advantage of the town to settle such a question as that on a firm basis. The Chairman said it was a question for the ratepayers to consider whether the advantages to be derived would com- pensate them for the expense of obtaining it. Mr.Glascodine hardly felt inclined to negative the motion, neither did he wish it exactly to pass, because he feared it would pledge the Board. The Chairman said it would not: it was only to take steps for a preliminary inquiry. Mr. Glaacodiiie continued that he looked upon the motion as a slepping-stono to a stipendiary magistrate (which he thought of much greater importance than some gentlemen), and it would give them responsible trustees to hold public, property. Mi. Howell replied and iulher ridiculed the visionary loopho'cs which Mr Nfvi 11 had pictured uut. lie was quite satisfied that there need be no additional expense beyond the cost of obtaining a charter. As to a paid treasurer, that would arise whether they had a corporation or not, and he thought it would be well worth the expense of a paid treasurer to have the accounts properly kept. The votes were then taken as follows-For Mr. Howell' motion R. G. Glascodine, D. Evans, R. B. Jones, R. T9 » i • I Howell, and the Chairman. Against: John George, Rees Harris, and C. W. Nevill. Neutral: W. H. Nevill, W. liosaer, and W. Thomas. The motion was therefore earned by a majority of two. Mr. W. H. Nevili gave notice that he would call the at- tention of the Board to the grant to the Athenajum, and that a resolution be come to as to the mode of payixg the grant, and also that a railing be (reeted to protect the building from injury. The signing of cheques concluded the business,