DENBIGHSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL. -......-.------.........-....|1897-02-06|The North Wales Times - Welsh Newspapers Online
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BOARD OF GUARDIANS.

TOWN COUNCIL. IP

DENBIGHSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL.…

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dff — culture, who stated that they could not se, Meir *• j,y at present to withdraw the order, but dconimendatiot in favour of its with- draw a would be borne in mind, and acted upon as soon as they would be justified in doing so. The report of the committee which in addi- tion to recommendations with regard to Swine Fever, entered minutely into the question of the maintenance of the Ruthin Borough Main Roads, and contained the contract entered into as between the County Council and the cor- poration, was then confirmed and adopted. THE OSWESTRY AND LLANGYNNOG LIGHT RAILWAY. The Light Railways Committee for the Wrexham District submitted their report which mainly dealt with the proposed light railway between Llangynnog and Oswestry. The committee were of opinion that they were not in a position to make any recommendation in the matter, with only the present informa- tion at their disposal; also that the clerk enquLe, whebher Montgomeryshire and Salop have taken, or proposed to take, any steps in relation to the application of the districts interested. The report of the Light Railways Committee for the Denbigh District contained no matter of special interest. THE DIVISION OF LLANRWST INTO URBAN AND RURAL DISTRICTS. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY. THE REPAYMENT OF LOANS. The Question of Advertising. The report of the committee of inquiry appointed to inquire into the proposed conver- sion of that part of the parish of Llanrwst, known as the Tre'rdre Special Drainage Dis trict into an Urban District was submitted for confirmation. The committee, consisting of Messrs W. Trevor Parkins, Samuel Moss, and Thomas Parry expressed themselves as satis- fied that such a proposal was desirable, and submitted a draft of the order which they recommended the County Council to issue for carrying such proposal into effect. Mr. Wynne Edwards, as chairman of the Local Government Act Committee moved the adoption of the report. In doing so, he said that under the regulations of the Local Govern- ment Board, it was necessary that public notice of the provisions of the order should be given in some local newspaper circulating in the district or parish affected, and that the clerk had, in consequence been instructed to enquire for what sum the order could be advertised in the following three newspapers :-The BANER, the Free Press, aiid, tFe, Carnarvon and Denbigh Herald. The tenders, he believed had been received, and were as follows:—The BANER 912; the Free Press, £ 6 6s.; the Carnarvon Her- ald 97. He {Mr Edwards) therefore begged to propose that the tender of the Free Press, which was the lowest, be accepted. Colonel Mainwaring seconded. The Chairman I find that the North Wales Times offers to do the work for f5, but the clerk was not instructed to write to the North Wales Times. Mr. Hooson I propose that the tender of the North Wales Times, being the lowest, be accepted. Mr. Lumley I second that. Mr. Wynne Edwards: But the clerk was not asked to write to the Times, and I do not see how you can get over that fact. Mr. Simon Jones: We have nothing to do with that, we ought to take the lowest ten- der. Captain Griffith Boscawen Might I ask Where the North Wales Times is published? Mr. Isgoed Jones: In Denbigh. Mr, Wynne Edwards Will it be in order to accept the tender of a paper not written to by the clerk, and not mentioned in the report of the committee? The Chairman: Yes, under standing order 34. Mr. Wynne Edwards: I should like to point out that the committee took into considera- tion the papers circulating in the district. Mr. Isgoed Jones: Fur the information of the Council, I must say that the North Wales .Times circulates in the district quite equal to any of the other papers mentioned. Mr. Steele IJ. Roberts: Did this tender of X-5 from the North Wales Times come in after the others ? The Chairman No, at the same time. Mr. Steele Roberts: Who asked for the tender ? The Clerk It was not asked for. Mr. Hooson: That is not the point. We ought to consider which is the lowest tender. Mr. Lumley Might I ask why the North Wales Times was not included amongst those papers which were asked to tender ? The Chairman That is not a matter for as now. The Council voted, the result being as fol- lows :—In favour of the North Wales Times 15 for the Free Press 11. Mr. Isgoed Jones then referred at length to the effect of the order on the Urban portion of the district of Llanrwst, and protested against the conclusions arrived at bý" the com- < mittee of inquiry in regard to the financial results of the division. One clause in the order recommended that the sum of f,700 be repaid by the Urban portion to the Rural District in respect of the loans negotiated to carry out the special drainage scheme, &c. &c. That sum was greatly in excess of the amount which the Urban portion ought, in justice, to pay, and the figures given at the inquiry were incorrect, and therefore misleading. Mr. Moss said Mr. Isgoed Jones was now trying to go behind, and to overthrow the figures given at the inquiry. That inquiry had been duly advertised solicitors appeared for both the parties interested the figures given to the committee went unchallenged by the opponents of the scheme, and not only himself, but Mr. Trevor Parkins and himself took great pains to get the exact figures. After such an inquiry, he did not think it right on the part of Mr. Isgoed Jones to say that the figures now given in the order were incorrect. The time for him to make his protest against the order would be at the inquiry which would be held by the Local Government Board, and he would therefore ask the chairman to rule Mr. Isgoed Jones out of order. The Chairman If Mr. Jones is able to prove after further inquiry, that the figures are incorrect, I hardly think it fair to rule him out of order. I really cannot do that. Mr. Isgoed Jones Thank you Mr. Chairman I am mueh obliged for your ruling. My only object in rising is, to ask the Council to elim- inate article 39 from the order. Mr. Jones proceeded to show in what respect the figures were wrong, and gave the reasons why the dis- trict was moving in favour of an Urban Authority. He had the authority of Mr. Pierce, the clerk of the Union, for stating that the sum actually paid by the Rural District in respect of the water supply and drainage for a certain period—about eleven years -was X-410, would mean a profit to the Rural District of £ 290. Mr. Moss expressed his astonishment that Mr. Jones should speak in this manner, and to ask the Council on an ex parte statement to cast aside the figures arrived ab with so much are and trouble at the public inquiry. At the Inquiry, all the authorities in the district were Properly represented, those who gave evidence were subject to examination, and cross exami- nation, the figures given went unchallenged eVen by Mr. Isgoed Jones who was himself Present at the inquiry, and yet, he now came before the Council with an ex parte statement tried to piove that those figures were *ttcorre6t; in fact, he asked the council to Upset the figures without giving the other side t? of being present. He hoped r>f 1i UB would support the recommendation t the committee, because it would, be a most extraordinary policy for the Council to send tnen down to outlandish parts of the county, and the expense of a public inquiry, and «^King evidence from experts, and then, on the «*ere statement of an individual member to concIusions arrived »t by such a • Several members here requested Mr. Isgoed Jones to withdraw. Mr. Isgoed Jones said he had no vindictive feeling in Lhis matter, and if it was the wish of the Council, he would withdraw his amendment at present, but would most certainly bring the matter forward at the Local Government inquiry. The figures had been given under a misapprehension, and were incorrect. The Rev. H. Rawson W. Ilia ins then moved an amendment to article 6th of the Order. In that article only 7 parish councillors were apportioned "'■> the Rural District, and he beg- ged to move that the number be increased to 13. The Rural District would be a very large and important one even after the division. The rural district of Eglwysbach had less population, less area, and less rateable value, and if Eglwysbach were entitled to 11 members on the parish Council, the Rural District of Llanrwst out to have at least 13 members. Mr. Isgoed Jones seconded. Only six members voted in favour of the amendment, which was lost. Mr. Simon Jones then proposed that the number of Urban Councillors be increased to 15 instead of 12 as recommended in the order. Eight members voted for this amendment which was also lost. The report of the committee was then con- firmed and adopted. THE WREXHAM COUNTY BUILDINGS. THE ACTION OF THE STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE. MR. LUMLEY ON IRREGULARITY.' The Chairman moved, and Mr. Hooson se- conded the adoption of the report of the Fin- ance Committee, which contained the following resolution in reference to the alterations proposed to be carried out in the County Build- ings at Wrexham: 'That this Committee having reviewed the terms proposed to he entered into with the Treasury, and considered the plans and estimates, the County Council be recom- mended to confirm and approve of the pro- ceedings of the Standing Joint Committee in reference to the erection' of a Second Court House in Wrexham, as now reported to this Committee; and that the Council be further recommended to authorise the Clerk to negotiate a loan of £ 1,300 to en- able the Council to enter into a contract with Messrs. Turner Brothers for carrying out their tender, which has been condition- ally accepted by the Standing Joint Com- mittee.' Mr. Lumley proposed as an amendment that the resolution be not adopted, and that the plans already prepared by the Gounty Surveyor for the alterations and additions to the build ings be referred by the Council to the Wrexham Main Roads Committee, with power to adopt the same and submit them, through the clerk, to the Local Government Board on behalf of the county for their approval, and that the clerk obtain the necessary sanction of the Local Go- vernment Board for the loan required to cover the outlay; the Main Roads Committee to submit the plans when adopted by the Local Government Board to public competition and accept a tender on behalf of the County Coun cil for the work, the Finance Committee to make the neccessary arrangements with the treasury for the use for the second Court House by the County Court Judge, and to report the same to the County Council. That was his amendment, and he proposed it because the re- solution of the Finance Committee was irregu- lar, and could not be carried out. Mr. Gee seconded the amendment. The Chairman said the amendment was not quite in order. Mr. Lumley had just stated that the resolution of the Finance Committee was irregular, but he could not say that it was. In the amendment, Mr. Lumley proposed that the Finance Committee should make the neces- sary financial arrangements with the Treasury. It was for the Financial Committee to report on this matter, and not for the council to dic- tate to the Finance Committee. He was afraid that he would have to take this portion from the amendment before it could be put. Mr. Lumley asked to be allowed to make his observations first, although he had no objec tion to modify the amendment. This having been allowed him, Mr. Lumley proceeded to say that his reason for moving the amendment was to set this matter, which had been all through perfectly irregular, right. He did not do so in any way from any objection to the enlargement of the Wrexham Court House, and whatever addition was necessary, he had no desire to obstruct (hear, hear). However, he felt a certain amount of jealousy for the rights of the County Council as against the rights of the Standing Joint Police Committee, when the latter interfered in any matters not legally within their jurisdiction (hear, hear). Mr. Griffith Boscawen said 'hear, hear.' There would have been no necessity whatever for the amendment to be submitted to the council that day if he and the Standing Joint Committee had adopted the right policy with reference to this matter (laughter). He was indeed sorry that the Standing Joint Committee did not get better advice from their legal adviser upjn this question (laughter), because at the time it was taken in hand by the Police Committee, an appeal had been made to the Court of Appeal as to the rights of the Police Committee in matters affecting County Buildings, and Mr. Justice Cave distinctly stated that with mat- ters affecting the police, and the administration of Police Buildings, &c., the Standing Joint Committee were absolute in their control over them (hear, hear), but there was a clause in Mr. Justice Caves' summing up and decision where he said that, when the joint usage of any building came into question, then there was a doubt as to the right of the Standing Joint Committee to interfere with the authority of the County Council. That decision having been taken he certainly would have expected their legal adviser to be very careful in giving his advice to the Police Committee, because if he had acted upon the case submitted by the Somerset County Council to the High Court, he might then have seen that he was not on firm ground in giving the advice he did. Now, it had been clearly shown that the Police Com- mittee had been acting ultra vires, because when they sent their plans for adoption to the Local Government Board, that Board quite naturally told themlthey would have nothing whatever to do with them. The Local Government Board to his mind clearly defined their duty in this matter. He was not a lawyer, but he could form his opinion on some matters with as much accuracy, if not more so, than some lawyers at any rate (loud laughter). To his mind it was pretty clear what the duties of the Standing Joint Committee were. Clause 2 of the Act dealt with County Buildings, and transferred the same en bloc from the Quarter Sessions to the County Council. Therefore the County Council were the trustees of the County Build- ings, but the Standing Joint Committee under the section mentioned, were permitted to use them, and whatever further accommodation they required for the use of the police, they could order the County Council to provide it (hear, hear). But it was not for the Standing Joint Committee to provide it. All they could do was to order what they required, and the County Council was bound to provide it. But if the Standing Joint Committee asked for a building of marble, they would not be bound to provide it. They must stop the Standing Joint Committee from erecting only such build- ings as the County Council, as custodian of County property, were prepared to give them, but the accommodation they required, the Coun- ty Council were bound to give them. (Where the Standing Joint Committee made the mis- take was, in going to provide a second court house and enlarge the present buildings for the use of another authority, for other than police purposes (hear, hear). No idoubt, the altern- ations were required, but the County Council was the authority that should have been ap- proached to decide upon the alterations re quired for the accommodation of the County Court Judge. The Standing Joint Committee would not for a moment suggest that they had a right whatever to enter into any financial arrangements of this kind, and he did not know whether the arrangements entered into between the committee and the Treasury would stand or not. It was the County Council that was to make financial arrangements with regard to the revenue derived from, or in respect of county property. Then they had taken upon themselves to advertise for tenders for the work. Such an advertisement coming from the Standing Joint Committee was an illegal one, and the County Auditor would not pass such a bill. They had no right to submit the plans ef the buildings to public competition, until the County Council had given them per- mission and instruction to do so. But the Police Committee'never approached the County Council at all in the matter. If they had come in a proper manner to ask for what they wanted, the County Council would never have refused their request, and this after all was what Captain Griffith Boscawen had said—'We will go on until we are stopped' (laughter). He (Mr. Lumley) had stopped them (cheers and laughter). It was the remark made by Mr. Griffith Boscawen that induced him (Mr. Lum- ley) to take this matter up, and he was very glad that he had stopped them (loud laughter). What he wanted was, that the coach should be put on the right wheel, and that the County Council should have everything to do with the erection of the building, and also placing the plans in the hands of jhe public to be tendered for, and thab the County Council should also let the tender. The County Council was the authority to do this, and not the Standing Joint Committee. After the explanation he had given, he hoped they would not object to the clause in the amendment which referred to the Finance Committee, because it was quite necessary that the question should come again before that committee. This matter came now for the first time before the County Council, and it should go from the Council to the Fin- ance Committee and not from the Standing Joint Committee in the first instance. That was the only reason he asked the clause to be let in the amendment. It was quite immater- ial in one way what authority provided the buildings, but he o.ily asked that the rights of the County Council should be protected against the incursions of the Standing Joint Com- mittee (hear, hear). Mr. Thomas Gee seconded the amendment, because he was extremely jealous of the rights of the County Council. As a body represent- ing the ratepayers, he thought they should have entire control of all matters connected with the buildings of the county. Of course, an opinion Ihtd, been given that the Stand- ing Joint Committee had certain powers within certain limits, but he did not think they ought to have even these powers, and that the County Council should have entire control where money was to be spent. Mr. Lumley's amendment had hisentire sympathy. Captain Griffith Boscawen, on behalf of the Standing Joint Committee, entirely disclaimed any illegality on the part of the body in the matter now under discussion. They had not endeavoured to go behind the County Council, but he begged to say that the statement made by Mr. Lumley to the Local Government Board was an ex parte one, and did not give the Board the whole of the facts. The Finance Committee had practically adopted a tender for carrying out the work, and the question had only been adjourned in order that the County Accountant might get the lowest terms upon which the money could be obtained. Mr. Lumley, some- what irregularly, tried to throw over at the Finance Committee what had already been done in the matter, but his action was over ruled by the County Council at a subsequent meeting. In the adjoining county of Chester, it was the practice of the Standing Joint Com- mittee to advertise for tenders, and to decide which one to accept. It was a great pity that attempts were made to delay the work. The Board of Work had already agreed to pay 4 per cent on the outlay, and 130 a year for the use of the buildings. He believed they were within their rights in accepting a tender for the work, and send the plans to the Local Go- vernment Board. He would admit that these plans were sent somewhat hastily to the Local Government JBoard, and that, so far as he could see, was their only fault. But their rea- son for doing solwas not to delay the work. Mr. Lumley had already delayed it for three months, and now it would be six months. Mr. Lumley had raise d the storm—although it was but a SGorm in a teapot, and he believed that it was raised so as to cause friction between the County Council and the Standing Joint Committee. He, as chairman of the committee, and member of the County Council only wished to carry out the law in the matter. Mir. Simon Jones said he did not think any useful purpose could be gained if Mr. Lumley's amendmentment was carried. The matter had been put right by a rosolution passed at the last meeting of the Standing Joint Committee referring the plans and specifications to the County Council and the Finance Committee. If the plans were referred to the Main Roads Committee, nothing could be gained. They had already met with the approbation of the Board of Works and the County Court Judge. He thought it would be unwise to defer the question. Four tenders were received and that of Messrs. Turner Brothers, Wrexham, for XI,250 had been adopted, and. the Finance Committee recommended the County Council that day to accept this tender. Mr. Moss said he wished to make a sugges- tion. There was a great necessity for another court at Wrexham. Both Mr. Lumley and the Standing Joint:Committee had had their say The committee were determined to go on until they were stopped, and Mr. Lumley stopped them (laughter). That should satisfy both (re- newed laughter). He was going to suggest that this matter be allowed to go on, and that a small committee be appointed, which in con- junction with the clerk, should prepare a case for the High Court with a view of meeting such matters in future as between the two au- thorities. They certainly ought to know the rights of the Standing Joint Committee and the County Council respectively. If Mr. Lum- ley's amendment was withdrawn he would move his suggestion as a rider to the committee's report. Mr. Lumley contended that his resolution would not in any way hinder the work. The Council then divided when four voted in favour of Mr. Lumley's amendment, which had been somewhat modified. These four gentle- men were Messrs. Lumley, Gee, Story, and Steele L. Roberts. THE NEW LOCK-UP AT HENLLAN. STRONG PROTEST BY MR. STORY. The Standing Joint Committee having pur- chased two houses at Henllan for fl70, the Fin- ance Committee now recommended an expendi- ture of £ 100 for the purpose of converting the houses into a lock-up, and requested the Coun- ty Council to provide the money. Mr. Story: I move as an amendment that the recommendation to spend this £ 100 on the Henllan lockup be referred back to the com- mittee for further consideration. I propose the amendment in protest against the expendi- ture of this money, and also the policy adopted by the Standing Joint Committeee in this matter. I know the village of Henllan as well as any member of this council, and in my opin- ion, it is not necessary or desirable to build a lockup there. It is a peacefull little village, and the inhabitants are as peaceful and law abiding as can be found in the whole of Wales. If a lock-up is built there, it will in my opinion cast a slur upon the inhabitants. Hitherto, the policeman has lived in a cottage, and up to now, it has never been found desirable to have a lock-up there, and I really protest against the expenditure of this money as recommended by the committee. The Chairman I really think your amend- ment is out of order. The Standing Joint Committee require the work to be done, and we are powerless in the matter. Therefore your amendment is out of order. Mr. Story: But I have a, right sir, to make observations on any matter touched upon in the report of the fFinance Committee which is now before us, and with your permission, sir, I will proceed. I again enter my protest against the spending of this Eloo. f this pro- ject is carried out in Henllan, w1 r should a lock up not be built in every othe village or hamlet throughout the county? In my opinion, if anything is to be done to the He'lllan lock-up it should be taken down. Captain Griffith Boscawen having explained the position of the Standing Joint Committee in the matter, The Chairman ruled Mr. Story's amendment out of order, and the discussion dropped. THE EXTENSION OF. THE ASYLUM. A paragraph in the report of the Finallpe Committee embraced a statement by the Com- mittee of Visitors of the North Wales Lunatic Asylum, estimating the contemplated expendi- ture of enlargement, furnishing and water sup ply at zES0,000, and a further expenditure in providing temporary accommodation at £ 3 350. Of the first sum the amount required from the county of Denbigh was £ 22,833 6s 8d., and of the latter £ 927 12s. Id. The report of the Finance Committee was then confirmed. ALLOWANCES TO WITNESSES AT INQUESTS. A letter was read from Mr. Thomas Griffiths, Ponkey, complaining of the allowance made to him and five other witnesses for attending to give evidence at an inquest held at Wrexham on the 20th November last. The writer said he and the others referred to had been paid by the coroner Is. 6d. each for the loss of time, I and they were recommended to apply to the County Council for any further allowance. A letter from the coroner (Mr. Wynn Evans) stated that he had paid these men Is. 6d. each, including 3d. for railway fare. On the motion of Mr. E. Hooson (Rhos), se- conded by Mr. S Jones, it was resolved that it be a recommendation from the County Council to the East Denbighshire coroner to pay the witnesses who attended the inquest the maxi- mum sum of 2s. 6d., and a mileage of 6d. per mile one way, making the amount up to 4s. In reply to questions, the Chairman said he did not think they had the power to compel the coroner either one way or the other; it was a matter for his discretion. RAILWAY RATES ON THE CHESTER AND HOLYHEAD LINE. A discussion took place on a resolution passed at a joint meeting of the Flintshire and Car- narvonshire County Councils, held at Conway, to consider the London and North Western Railway (Wales) Bill, session 1897, to the effect that it was 'unjust that higher maximum rates should be charged upon the Chester and Holy head line than upon the main line of the com- pany.' Mr. Thomas Gee (Denbigh), said he thought the Council ought to stand by the agriculturists and tradesmen of the county, with the view of securing, if possible, more reasonable rates for the transit of agricultural produce and other merchandise. It was absurd to think that goods could actually be shipped from this coun- try to New York and thence back to London at a cheaper rate than from Liverpool to Lon- don, and yet a Flintshire gentleman had assured him that this had been done. He begged to move :— 'That this Council protests strongly against the rates which are charged by the London and North Western Railway on their Welsh lines, and that a committee be appointed to give evidence, if necessary in support of any petition which may be presented by any of the North Wales counties, with a view of having such a reduction in the rates as will place them on an equality with those upon their other lines; the committee to consist of Colonel Main- waring, Mr. Foulkes (Abergele), and Mr. J. Roberts (Denbigh).' This was seconded by Mr. R. E. Graessar, and agreed to.