The North Wales Express

INQUIRY AT CARNARVON. THE ELECTRIC LIGHT MUDDLE. RATEPAYERS' OPPOSITION. On Wednesday, Mr A. G. Malet, C.E.. lield 1 <1 inquiry at tho Guild Hall, Carnarvon, into a application by the Carnarvon Town C'hxik 1 for sanction to borrow £17,000 for eleetr; lighting purposes. A large number °f the nrineipal ratepayers in the town were Present Mr E. J. Griffith, M.P. (instructed b.y the ro\vn Clerk) appeared on behalf of I the Town Council to make the application, *n<i Mr Marshall, K.C., opposed on behalf '4 Mr C. A. Jones and other ratepayers. -'1.1' Griffith reminded the Inspector that t was an adjourned inquiry. It was fixed i f°r the 22nd September last, and was for f certain reasons postponed. Proceeding, Mr I Griffith said that the question to be decided simply whether the application of the own Council should be granted or not. The I population of Carnarvon in 1901 was 9760; J assessable value £ 29.832, and the debta t f-o4.255, the great bulk of which had been I in('urred under the Public Health Act. the F fates at present were 8s Id in the £ The j Movement in favour of lighting the town Dy I 'tec-tricity was started in February, 19>)1 H aplication was then made by a Mr Petor- I fcon for an Electric Lighting Order, and i\ ( lJJ,ominent and eloquent supporter of <he i fccheme, under which it was proposed to I "pend £ 30,000, was Mr C. A. Jones, whom r •'I' Marshall now represented. The Town k Council opposed Mr Peterson's scheme, and it was clearly understood, and an under- takb g Was given at the inquiry that was held, that the Town Council themselves %vo«ld move in the matter, and on June 23rd, "Otild move in the matter, and on June 23rd. 1-9V2, they obtained a Provisional Order. It discovered, however, that there was no I transfer clause in it. They had two alterna- fives, either to promote the whole undertak- lllg themselves or to enter into an agreement Vvith some company or another to supply them with electricity. They came to the conclusion that they could not supply the town themselves without placing a serious burden on the rates, and the only course open to them was to enter into an agreement with 11 company to supply them upon certain terms. Ultimately an agreement was arrived at with ) t.he National Electric Construction Company. I I Previously known as the National Wiring I Company. But before these negotiations ^ere entered into, and during the time the ,legotiations were carried on. the Corporation I Consulted Sir W. H. Preece upon the details I the undertaking, and on the 25th March, ) 1903, Sir W. H. Preece, after going carefully through the specifications and terms, wrote I say that he was strongly of opinion that i tli»< terms offered were favourable and accept- able, able, Mr Marshall: Will you read the letter of 3rd March, received from Sir W. H. Greece? Mr Ellis Griffith read the letter, which was j fcs follows :— "It does not appear to me that the Cor- Poration is gaining very much in a scheme <>f this kind, and whereas they are saving Themselves the risk of slight losses in the 'first, few years they undoubtedly have to pay more heavily for the plant and materials than would be necessary if the whole under- ( taking was designed by a responsible en- gineer and obtained by public tender." But on the 25th March, added Mr Griffith, Hir W. H. Preece reported that the scheme '*B-s favourable and acceptable. Proceed- ing, he said that on the 9th of June, 1903, the Council met, and the scheme was brought under consideration. Nineteen members "vere present. Seventeen voted for the 8pherne, one was neutral, and one was against, and on the same date the seal of the Corpora- tion was fixed to the agreement with the ^tional Wiring Company. Mr Griffith read the most important clauses in the agreement y»d explained that the company had agreed to extend the period for which the agreement )Vould be in force from 20 to 25 years. I Mr Marshall: That has not been before the Council. Mr Grimth The agreement comes to this e ask you to recommend the sanction of a *°an of £ 17,000. There will be interest and s'oking fund amounting to £ 1020 a year. Ihere iB also 3 per cent., which, under the eircumstances. the contractors reserve to eircumstances. the contractors reserve to I tf»emsehes. This made £ 510 a year. The <J°mpany, and the company alone, would have to pay the £1020, whether they got it Or not. Not a penny of the loss, if the under- taking were not successful, would fall on the Corporation during the 25 years. During the first ten years, if the receipts are more than £1530, being the £1020 and £510 added together, the Corporation will get whatever Sl|rplue there is. If, on the other hand, the Undertaking is a success, at the end of 10, 15 or 20 years they are entitled to take it upon the terms mentioned in the agreement, and at the end of 25 years the Corporation will be ln, possession of the whole undertaking, and ^'ill be relieved of the £1020 interest and inking fund. Replying to the Inspector, Mr Ellis Griffith "aid that the works would be handed over k the Corporation in a proper state of re- Pair according to the agreement. The Inspector asked if there was anything the agreement stating who would find the capital for additions or alteraions. Mr E. J. Griffith said that he did not think there was. Proceeding, he said that the Corporation, under the scheme of the II firing Company, would lose nothing but 'Would gain a great deal. It might be asked Whether the company were in a position to ('<UTy out the undertaking. The Corporation were safeguarded in the course of construc- hon, and if the worst should happen, there Xvould be the installation and the works to ,hich the Corporation would be entitled. i -He would be in a position to satisfy them that V Council had not entered into the matter ^ith their eyes shut. They had made in- l ^niries, and were perfectly satisfied. Th« ^oupany was a sound company, and •was able f to carry out its undertaking by its capacity -l1d financial position. Further, they had t ■ the individual guarantee of the directors. M'iich put the matter beyond all shadow of H doubt. Mr Marshall: How many directors are *heve? Mr Griffith: Five. Continuing, he said that though the Council had decided by an I* ^Ve**whelming majority in favour of the J S('heme of the Wiring Company there ap- r P^ared to have been no finality in the matter. 1 5^noe the thing was settled it was thought ( p Was time to unsettle it; and when the ] government Inspector came to Carnarvon on lhe 22nd September last to hold an inquiry an application was made to have the inquiry ad- -t°Uvned on the ground that the Council ^'8hed to consider a rival scheme of electric '§ht. The Inspector then said that it. was tl°t part of his duty to express an opinion ^P°n any scheme, and agreed to adjourn the n<luiry. The Wiring Company, having al- *p&dy an agreement under the seal of the °*n Council, did not. stand upon their rictly legal rights, and suggested that the w° schemes should be submitted to an ex- \r' an(* *hev would abide bv his decision. Marshall: Is that in writing? ^Mr Griffith said that on the 30th October. ',e Town Clerk wrote to the Wiring Com- J!*1'?' statinf? that the Electric Light Com- Htee had decided to obtain jed-pf-ndent ex opinion. The Wiring Company wrote to this pour! and expressing thfir j.1 j 'oeftS to stake their whole position upon 's dependent advice. Mr Wilmshurst. I elect, rical engineer, of Derby, was the expert f appointed. He made a lengthy report upon I the two schemes. With reference to the scheme of the Wiring Company Mr Wilms- hurst said that it was the better scheme, and furthermore that it was a sound scheme, and presented the balance of advantages. This was in November. 1903, and now they were in April, and Mr C. A. Jones and other rate- payers were not yet satisfied. He (Mr Griffith) submitted that he had made a good case for asking the Inspector to recommend that the j Local Government Board should grant the j loan of £ 17,000. The scheme was one that could be recommended in the interests of I the ratepayers of the town. The £17,000 would be wisely spent with the minimum of risk and the maximum of advantage. j The Mayor of Carnarvon was called to give evidence. He corroborated the state- I ment of counsel. He added that from June, 1903, when the Council decided by a large ¡' majority in favour of the scheme of the Wiring Company, up to 29th February, 1904, Mr John Prichard was chairman of the Elec- tric Lighting Committee. That gentleman I was strongly in favour of the scheme of the Wiring Company in 1903. The schemes of the Wiring Company and of the Power Com- I pany were submitted to Mr Wilmshurst, who reported in favour of the former, and his re- port was submitted to the Council on the 5th December. 1903, and it was agreed to defer I the consideration of the matter for a month. I On the 29th February, 1904, the agreement was again before the Council. There were 19 members present; and 13 voted in favour I of the Wiring Company's scheme. It was then that Mr Prichard resigned his position as chairman of the Electric Light Committee. He (the witness) believed that there was no difference of opinion as to whether electric I light was required for the town. The ques- tion was which company was to have the pri- ( vilege of supplying it. Everything was plain sailing 'in the Council until the Power Company appeared on the scene. He per- sonally was in favour of the electric light, and he had satisfied himself as to the financial position of the directors of the Wiring Com- pany. Inquiries had been made by the chair- man of the Finance Committee, the Borough Accountant, and the Borough Treasurer as to the financial position of the directors, and the result had been satisfactory. Mr Marshall: When the matter came be- fore the Council in June last year the second scheme was not then submitted?—Witness: No- On the 22nd September last an inquiry was held, and the matter came before the Electric Lighting Committee in November, and on the 30th of the same month the committee I voted upon it?—I believe it was so. I Are you aware that the majority of the committee, that is 7 to 3, decided that it was not desirable to proceed with the scheme of the Wiring Company?—I do not know I whether it was put in that form. It was not desirable to proceed at that time. Mr E. J. Griffith: The committee resolved that the matter be deferred for a month, so that the Town Clerk might, in the meantime, communicate with the Board of Trade as to the position of the Council under their Pro- visional Order. Mr Marshall: The matter, in consequence of litigation being threatened by the Wiring Company, was referred to a committee of the whole Council ?-Witness: Yes. It was on the 30th November that the Electric Lighting Committee passed a resolution adverse to the Wiring Company, and when litigaton was subsequently threatened the matter was dis- cussed by the Council in committee. It was in February that a resolution was passed in favour of proceeding with the scheme of the Wiring Company. Thirteen voted in favour, and five for an amendment. Two did not vote. And there were six members absent?—I am not sure. I do not know how far you have gone into the figures laid before the Town Council by the Wiring Company. You know that the total is £ 17,000. Do you remember that the profit which the company at that time said they would derive from the construction was £ 1352?—I do not remember. Referring to the Wiring Company's claim for £ 7000 for alleged breach of agreement, Mr Marshall asked whether it did not strike the witness as being singular that the com- pany should now claim so large a sum when at the outset they said that their profit from construction would be £ 1352? The witness replied that if the C7000 was claimed as profit it was singular. Mr Marshall: Does it seem right, that a loan should be sanctioned for £17,000, to in- clude £ 7000 profit to go into the pockets of the companyf-Witness: I am not aware it does so. Assuming it'to be so, what do you think?— It is a point quite new to me. The Council are acting on the advice of experts. It is a matter of common sense. Are you in favour of £ 17,000 being borrowed, to in- clude £ 7000 as profit to go into the pockets of the company?—They are allowed to take a profit of 3 per cent. Supposing their claim in respect of capital to be advanced for construction includes a profit to them of about S7000, do you think that that is a thing to be encouraged?—I do not think it would be a wise thing. I suppose you will agree that, if electricity can be supplied by another company without going into the expense of erecting the neces- sary works in Carnarvon to manufacture it, and if it can be supplied at a reasonable price, avoiding that outlay, it would be prima- facie desirable to take that course?—Yea. Are you aware that in Bangor they are losing from £600 to £700 a year?—I have been told so. Although they have had it for five or six years?—I do not know how long. Bangor has a population rather larger than Carnarvon?—Much the same. You have not worked out the figures of the Wiring Company as to how far it might pay them to supply Carnarvon under the scheme? —No. Are you aware that half the members of the Town Council are memorialising against the application to grant a loan of £ 17,000? —I am not aware. I hear a good many things. You were present at a public meeting on Monday night?—I was. A resolution was passed against this pro- posal with only yourself as dissentient?—I was the only one who voted against. There were many people who did not vote. An amendment was proposed by a gentleman named Mr Butler to the effect that the electric light was not required in Carnarvon, but the chairman ruled it out of order. The amendment was not seconded?-—I was publicly insulted, and was rather excited. Mv E- J. Griffith Whether the amendment was seconded or not. the chairman said that, the question raised bv Mr Butler was not be- fore th<> meeting?—Yes. Mr C. A. Jones is in favour of the electric light?—I believe he is strongly in favour of it. Mr Griffith: But it must be Peterson's (laughter). Mr A. HoTden, Borough Accountant, said that he had gone into the scheme of the Wiring Company, and his opinion was that it would supply electric light in the town in a proper way. He had made inquiries fntp the financial position of the company, and had bfen satisfied. By Mr Mm-shall; H* made the inquiries i.!»rr,ugh the finaucial agencies, and the reply Ik* t^-eiv-'d was that each director of the company was quite sound for the amount 1 named. Three years ago the company paid a dividend of 5 per cent., in 1902 2! per cent., and for last year it had Dot been declared. The difference in the dividend would depend upon the nature of the work upon which they were engaged. With regard to the area pro- posed to be covered by the company, he be- lieved that the mains would be taken through the principal streets of the town. Mr Marshall: The compulsory area is small ? The Inspector: It nearly always is. Mr G. H. Humphreys, manager of Lloyd's Bank, Carnarvon, said that he had also made inquiries with reference to the financial posi- tion of the directors of the company who gave a personal guarantee, and the result of his inquiries were favourable and satisfactory. Answering Mr Marshall, witness said that he made the inquiries through the chief office in London, but he could not say what was the nature of the inquiries made. Alderman D. T. Lake said that he was assessed at £ 450 and employed 150 people. He was in favour of the electric light in Carnarvon, and he believed that there was a desire for the light in the town. Of the schemes submitted to the Council he con- sidered that the best was that of the Wiring Company. He Ifad favoured the scheme of that company from the start. He was at present using the electric light in his factory, but he hoped to be able tQ get the light cheaper from Carnarvon. Mr Marshall: You are not an elected mem- ber of the Town Council?—Witness: I was elected an alderman in the way that all alder- I men are elected, namely, by a majority of the Council (hear, hear). As a matter of fact, you were not elected a member of the Town Council?—I was, other- I wise I would not be on the Council to-day (hear, hear). I Were you elected by the ratepayers?—I was elected by the representatives of the rate- payers. If I had been asked whether I had been elected a councillor I would have said no. I was never rejected by the ratepayers. Is it because you think this is a sound agreement, and that the Wiring Company are likely to benefit the town financially, or because you are desirous of avoiding litiga- tion that you favour the scheme?—Apart from the question of litigation I am in favour of the company. Don't you think that the erection of works here is likely to be more risky and expensive than if electricity were supplied by the Power Company?—I believe in a small company in the town. We can get the scheme of the Wiring Company without any risk to the rate- payers. I At any rate, it would be rather expensive to borrow £17,000 for the purpose?—I do not say so. I have Sir W. H. Preece in my favour, and am also guided by others. The electric light at Bangor is a loss is it not?—Yes, but that cannot affect us at Car- narvon. Though the electric light is not a success at Bangor and Colwyn Bay you come to the conclusion that it will pay in Carnarvon?- Yes. Whatever loss is incurred the com- pany will bear it. Supposing it did not pay, and the company was wound up?—We have a plant which would be good value for the money. j Do you believe in a proposal to put R7000 ¡ in the pockets of the company?—There is no I such proposal. Replying to Mr E. J. Griffith, witness said that he was satisfied with the financial posi- tion of the company. Mr Griffith: I do not know whether an alderman is less competent than a. councillor to form ap opinion. Mr Marshall: I do not say that. Mr Griffith: A councillor is more amenable to public persuasion than an alderman. Alderman Edward Hughes said that he was strongly in favour of the electric light, and had hoped that it would have been intro- duced into the town before now. He was greatly pleased with the report of Mr Wilms- hurst, and thought it would be a good thing for the town if the Wiring Company's scheme II were carried through. Questioned by Mr Marshall. witness thought that the scheme of electric light would help to make the town more attractive to visitors. Though he was not an expert he believed that the scheme of the Wiring Com- pany could be worked on a sound basis. pany could be worked on a sound basis. Mr Marshal!: If it is a fact that this P,17,003 includes £7000 for profit does that strike you as being a bit off?—Witness: It is very hard to say what profit they would make for years. By Mr Grimth He knew that the com- pany, according to agreement, would have to I keep the works in repair. Mr E. Hall. Borough Surveyor, said that the plans of the buildings proposed to be erected were in strict accordance with the j bye-laws. Mr W. B. Cowney. manager and secretary of the Wiring Company, said that the company had done extensive work for the Government at the War Office, Aldershot, and the General Post Office. During the last 18 months the company had devoted itself more to con- struction work, and had entered into contract with municipalities with reference to this class of work. These places included Bo'ness I (Scotland), Paignton, Wisbech, Basingstoke, Holyhead, Kildare (Ireland), Louth, and Mus- selburgh. Five or six of these schemes meant an expenditure of £ 200,000. He produced the balance sheet of the company for 1902, which showed assets £ 90,000, and liabilities £ 4000. Their dividend in 1902 showed a de- crease as the result of making an alteration in the business. Huge dividends were not al- ways signs of a sound financial position. The terms offered by the company to the Town Council of Carnarvon were more favourable than those offered to other places. The price A it was proposed to charge for the light was 5d per unit, and this was estimated upon a certain consumption. In all these under- takings there would be a loss for the first few years. The company had undertaken to pay yearly a sum of £ 1020 by way of interest and sinking fund. This was estimated on £ 17,000. It might, be a little more; it depended on tho rate of the loan. At the end of 25 years this sum disappeareo frort the calculation. Origi- I nallv the agreement provided that the under- taking was to be taken over at the end of 20 years, but the company were willing to ex- tend the term to 25 years. The company must carry out the agreement whether the undertaking proved a failure or not. By Mr Marshall: The total capital of the company was £250,000, and £ 180,000 had been called up. Questioned regarding the statement of claim, the witness said that the damages asked for amounted to £7000, but he could ¡ not exactly state how it was made up. The solicitor for the Construction Company at this stage interposed, and said that Mr Marshall had no right to ask these questions. He told the witness not to reply. Witness then declined to give particulars, and Mr Marshall said he would comment upon that later on. Mr Cowney said that the shares of the Con- struction Company stood at 138 to 16s. He could not name 20 persons who had promised to take electric light.. In the afternoon evidence was given by Mr Wilmshurst, the electrical engineer of Derby. who said he went into bot emes, nn came to the conclusion that the sbeme of the Construction Company was. on sound en- gineering lines. He had made a report upon the two schemes, »nd hf recommended the Construction Company s ^ving based his figures upon a cUrge of 6d per f unit, which he understood had been reduced to 5d. In reply to Mr Marshall, he said that he had not been connected with any power scheme except in opposition. Generally speaking, small towns lost on the production of electricity, but there were some places where it paid. and the loss in other places did not amount to much, and it was becoming less every year. The cost of a supply in bulk was experimental so far. They wanted an experience of several years before they I could decide upon it. He would not admit that his objections were speculative, for in the case of one scheme everything was on sound engineering lines, adopted with success elsewhere, whilst the other was to a certain extent problematic. No similar scheme for the utilising of water and the transmission of power by overhead wires for long distances had been adopted in this country. Mr Ellis J. Griffith said that there was no need to enter into the merits of the rival I schemes. 1 Mr Marshall agreed, but added that up to a certain time only one scheme was before the Council. Another scheme was then brought forward, and it behoved the rate- 1 payers to make the best of the inquiry in that direction, and that might go very far to the root of the decision when the Commissioner made his recommendation. The Commissioner: You state that you may have a more economical scheme, but there is no need to go into the details of the other scheme. Mr Marshall said he would be wanting in his duty to the ratepayers if he did not make use of this opportunity to get out what he could. In reply to further questions by Mr Mar- shall, Mr Wilmshurst said he had several ob- jections to the supply in bulk and to the Power Comoany's scheme. They did not pro- vide for a battery of accumulators to keep the light steady and a constant supply of it as a standby in case of a temporary break- down. Accumulators were far more neces- sary in the Power Company's scheme than in the other, owing to several elements of un- certainty. He did not know that the Power Company had since arranged for accumula- tors. If they had, their price per unit would have to be increased. He also objected to the carrying of high pressure electricity by/ means of overhead wires. Two sets of run- 'ning machinery would also have to be put, down, one at Snowdon and the other at Car- narvon, and consequently they had a double risk of a breakdown, besides the question of the uncertainty of water supply in this coun- try. Proceeding, he said that last year Col- wyn Bay made a small profit, selling at 6d per unit. The Construction Company pro. posed to sell at 5d per unit, but they did not hope to make a profit the second year. At Fareham they were in their 12th year, and made a profit of JE138, selling at 7 £ d, and at St. Ann's a profit of £95 was made, selling at an average price of 4.2d, but he supposed that coal was cheap there. At Bangor, the cost of production was greater because of the refuse destructor. He could not give the name of any other town of the size of Carnar- von showing a profit. He considered that the high pressure would be dangerous to life, and loss of life was a frequent occurrence abroad. A sum of E1500 would be required to be spent on accumulators, and then they would not be as efficient, because there would be a con- siderable loss of energy in transmittance. In order to provide 150,000 units for the con- sumers they would have to supply about 200,000. CASE FOR THE>OPPONENTS. Mr Marshall then addressed the Com- missioner on behalf of Mr C. A. Jones and other ratepayers, and said that though he did not wish to compare one company with an. other, he was bound to do so in order to prove his case; and in order to do so, he would have to call the engineer of the Power Company to show that electricity could be supplied to the town at a far less cost and quite as efficiently. Having gone through the history of the movements of the Town Council, he said that the matter was now being litigated upon, but that had only an indirect bearing upon the inquiry. It was a very startling fact that the Construction Com- pany should claim £7000 damages when as a matter of fact they said at one time that they would be the losers during the first few years, and when the manager was asked to explain that he declined to do so. Therefore, the'Local Government Board were asked to sanction the borrowing of £17,000, of which £ 7000 would go to the pockets of the Con- struction Company. Mr Ellis Jones Griffith explained that this meant the loss of profit on ten years' working as well as the loss on the construction of the works and wiring. Mr Marshall then commented upon the risk that would be incurred, and said that when the Town Council.inquired into it, and even- tually refused to adopt the recommendations of the Electric Lighting Committee, the chairman resigned. Uptil then the rate- payers had not been consulted, and this in- quiry was one of the ways by which the rate- payers were allowed to express their opinions. A public meeting had been held on Mondoy night, and the hall was crowded, and a re- solution was passed with enthusiasm against the proposal. A petition and a memorial had been signed very largely in the town, by shop-keepers and hotel keepers and large ratepayers, and by eleven out of the 24 mem- bers of the Town Council. In the face of this strong opinion he believed the Local Government Board would pause before sanc- tioning a loan which the bulk of the inhabit- ants did not recommend. The ratepayers did not ask them to decide between the two companies, but they believed that the scheme of the Construction Company was not the best, and they might be able to make a better bargain out of the Power Company. Already the debt of the town was £60,000, and the rates 8s Id in the k. and evidence would be given that the town was not under-assessed. Municipal taxation was becoming a burden, and in the teeth of the expression of opinion of half of the inhabitants of the town he did not think it would be wise to sanction this loan. He could not say that the evidence of Mr Wilmshurst was perfectly impartial. Mr Marshall then commented upon the fact that if the loan was granted, the Corporation would eventually have to take over the works. and if they had to take it over when it did not pay it would be a serious thing for the town. At Bangor, where electricity had been used for two or three years, they lost E600, and -he failed to see how it could be made to pay in Carnarvon. At Colwyn Bay they made a small profit, but they charged more than it was proposed to charge at Car- narvon, and at Fareham the charge was larger still. Not a single town of the size of Car- narvon had been mentioned where a profit had been made, and the opinions given as to the nrobable success at Carnarvon were purely speculative. Besides, there was no- thng to bind the Construction Company to charge only 5d. He pointed out that one of the chief causes of the heavy expense in generating electricity was the price of coal, which represented l;\d per unit. The Power Company would use no coal. but water power, and a considerable saving must result. Pro- ceeding, Mr Marshall dealt with the financial standing of the Construction Company. In 1902, according to the last balance sheet, they said that if they were now to realise then onsets as a going concern on the most fa vonvablr termi tb"v wronld only just sufficient to pav their fihareholdnrs and their debts, whilst their profits seemed to have ) dwindled from 5 to 21 per cent., and the 2 price of their shares stood at 10s to 15s. As to the guarantees, he held that these were not at all satisfactory in the event of the company coming to grief. What did they know of the directors? And it was only a limited company, forsooth. If the total amount of the guarantees were paid, the rate- payers would have £ 12,000 afterwards to meet, and they would be in a helpless state, .and saddled with a debt they would not be able to get rid of. Some of the ratepayers foresaw such a contingency, and were con- cerned about it, and in view of. that he thought the loan ought not to be sanctioned. Mr John Prichard, Victoria Mills, then gave evidence, and traversed the history of I the electric light in the Town Council. He said that he formed one of the deputation to go up to London to meet the representatives of the Construction Company with a view to coming to terms on the basis of the Town Council paying them reasonable out-of-pocket I expenses, but they would not treat upon those grounds. At first he thought the scheme was a good one until he compared it with others. He had made inquiries as to the financial status of the company, and considered them satisfactory; but he suggested a guarantee by an insurance company, which was not I entertained. There was a pretty general feeling in the town against the scheme, and against the expenditure of the Council gener- ally. and especially Z2500 for baths. Then the Aber Bridge cost the town about E500 a year, and was a very expensive luxury. Mr E. J. Griffith You have not a very high opinion of your colleagues?—Witness: There are a good nimy besides myself who don't (laughter). He admitted he had t'aken a prominent part in the electric light ques- tion. You were a reluctant convert to electric light?—I wa-i. And ware intimidated by Mr Peterson and Mr C. A. Jones iii,+,t) getting a Provisional Order? (laughfce?)'—You can put it in that war,, if you Like. Mr LIlis, J. Griffith then cross-examined the witness on the views held by Sir Wil liam- Preece, and the witness replied that Sir- William had gone into the matter from an engineering point of view, while he had looked at the financial aspect, and did not ipose as all expert, and whilst agreeing with some points he differed on others. At first She. had no idea that they could get what they wanted for less than £17,000, but he got wiaeu as he got older (laughter). Sir Wil- liffiia Preece had advocated the Power scheme two years bofore it was introduced, and he had consulted him regarding this scheme, when Sir William Preece said that if the Council could buy electricity at 2!d. it would j be cheaper to buy it than to generate it, but that unless the current was gpod it would not; be cheap at any price. How many schemes have you now under consideration?—I cannot tell. A dozen?—Not. fat' off it (laughter). And you think this is the best 1-1 am open to conviction if there is a better scheme than the Power Cotiipjiiiy's. j You have had several previous convictions? --N,I. In reply to further questions, Mr Prichard said that a similar scheme of transmission at Alloa had not been successful. He would not admit that the town would be in a bad way if anything happened to the Power Com- pany, for the mains laid down would come in useful, and a new station could be erected in six mouths. He would not admit that Mr Wilmshurst had been decided upon as an arbitrator between the two companies, nor was he satisfied with the reasons he gave in favour of the Construction Company's scheme. He wanted independent evidence, but he was not bound by it. He did not lead the Construction Company to believe that the views of th2 expert would be conclusive, but he wanted his views in order to help the Council generally. It did not follow that people accepted every advice that was offered to them (laughter). The next witness called was Mr J. Menzies, who said he thought the proposal to borrow £ 17,000 very ill-advised, as Carnarvon was not ripe for electricity. It was an old- fashioned town, with very few large institu- tions or residences in it. He had made in- quiries among a lot of latepavers, and had found hardly one who favoured getting elec- tricitv at the price quoted. He did not think there would be a sah of an j thing approach ing 150,000 units and would be surprised if 60 ratepayers would take more than 400 units each. There were no works, and very few shops, and the matter might very well postponed for four or five years (applause). The guarantee of the Construction Company was not satisfactory, because it was the guar- antee of a limited company. In reply to Mr Ellis J. Griffith, the witness said he would be glad to have electricity in his house, if it could be obtained at 4d a unit, but at present he was opposed to both schemes (applause). But he supported the 'Power Company on the ground that a gen- eral distribution of "lectrictty through the district would benefit the town. Mr John Fletcher said he was one of the largest employers of labour in the town, and objected to the loan being sanctioned, be- cause there was a possibility of electricity being brought into the town at a cheaper rate. He had not gone into the figures of the two companies, but according to the supply that ho would require he found that the Power Company could supply electricity far cheaper. He thought it would be better to adjourr. the matter for a time. Mr E. J. Griffith: Adjourning seems to be your remedy for most things (laughter). Is rot the Power Company going to Parliament. for power to supply the town?—ies. And doa't you oppose it in Parliament?— We are making a friendly opposition. And then you will adjourn it? (renewed laughter)—The Town Council is making an appearance against the bill in order to get favourable terms. Mr Alfred H. Richards was next called, and said he was the secretary of the Rate- payers' Association forme'd to oppose this application. He presented a memorial, signed by leading ratepayers, including twelve of the members of the Town Council: Messrs M. E. Nee, R. E. Evans, J. T. Roberts, John Prichard, Edward Parry, J. Davies, Peter Angel, R. Newton, W. Hamer. J. Fletcher. G. R. Griffith, and Richard Thomas (cheers). The general feeling in the town was strongly against the loan. and lie believed an equally good supply of electricity could be obtained at one-third the cost. The population and the rateable value of the town had decreased during the past ten years, but the Corporation debt had increased by £ 15,344. the bulk of which had been spent on unproductive undertakings. The rates had been increased 5d in the £ owing to the Aber Bridge. Mr E. J. Griffith Have you formed a high opinion of the intelligence of the rate- payers?—I know a little about them.' They take an intelligent view of the ques- tion?—They do. Have you been before them for their suf- frages?—I have. Were they quite as intelligent then?— Quite (laughter). I should not be afraid to go before them again to-morrow on this question (cheers). if any mem{)er of the Town Council in favour of' spending £ 17.000 will resign I <\iil contest the seat to-morrow (cheers). Has your election address finished there? (laughter).—I am not afraid. That is a little shorter than the other one? —I have not issued three as yet. The third is to come. Proceeding, Mr Richards said that each member of the Ratepayers' ) Association paid a substantial amount each towards opposing. Mr E. J. Griffith: Are you supported by the Power Company.-I decline to answer that. Can you deny that you are helped by the Powr Company? Mr J. R. Hughes Don't answer. Mr E. J. Griffith: Really, Mr Hughes, we are not in the Town Council now (laughter). Mr J. R. Hughes: I beg your pardon. Mr Richards: I decline to 1 j know I will have to pay out of mv owj. j pocket. Mr E. J. Griffith: You cannot expect the Power Company to pay the whole. Mr Itichards I never asked them to do anything. Proceeding. Mr Richards said he considered the scheme of the Power Com- pany the better one. but he did not pledge I himself to support the Power Company. He believed several members of the Town Council supported the Construction Com- pany's scheme because they were afraid of litigation. The memorial presented had been drafted by the committee. He did not tell the signatories that the £ 17,000 would come out qj the rates, but he knew there was a risk. At this stage Mr John Jones, saddler, and Captain Jones Williams said they signed the petition under the impression that the £17.000 would have to come out of the rates. The Inquiry was then adjourned to the Institute, and the Commissioner went to view the site. Mr C. A. Jones was the first witness called at the evening sitting, and he gave the account of the meeting held in the Guild Hall on Monday night, and produced the resolution passed. He did not approve of the £17.000 scheme. The financial position of the Power Company was satisfactory. In cross-examination he said that he had a small private installation of electric light of his own. but if the £ 17,000 scheme was carried through it would not help him. It would not come near his house. He had I favoured Mr Peterson's scheme for the spend- ing of £ 30,000. but that was a speculative scheme. Asked whether the Power Com- pany had given substantial support to the opposition, Mr Jones said he had been told that they had made a small subscription towards the expenses. Mr Marshall: But you were all responsible for the expenses? Witness: Yes. The expenses will be borne between us. Expert evidence was then given by the en- gineers of the two companies, and counsel addressed the Inspector. The Inspector said that he could not re- commend the Local Government Board to sanction the borrowing of the money unless he got evidence that there was a demand for electricity in the town, and so far he had not obtained evidence of that kind. Mr Griffith said that several witnesses on the other side had said that there was a demand. On the motion of the Mayor, seconded by Mr C. A. Jones, a vote of thanks to the Inspector was passed, and tho inquiry, which had lasted ten hours, terminated.