The Cambrian News and Merionethshire Standard

ABERYSTWYTH. TOWN COUNCIL. ROWDY SCENES. COL NOIL, Monday eveuing, April 16th.—Present: Captain Doughton, mayor, presiding; Alderman Peter Jones; Coun- cillors Wm Thomas, ex-mayor; Robert Doughton, C. M. Wuliams, Isaac Hopkins, Daniel Thomas. T. J. Samuel, J Gibson, J T Davies, Fred Mor- gan, Edwin Morris, and J Barclay Jen- kins Messrs A J Hughes, town clerk; J Simpson, asa-istant clerk; Rees Jones, bor- ough surveyor; Charles Massey, borough aicoount-ant; and James Evans, sanitaxy inspector. THE MINUTES. Before confirming the minutes, Mr Gibson said that the paragraph dealing with the Souvenir did not point out that two qualities were submitted and it did not show wh^t was the quality of the tender accepted at F,7 its. The Town Clerk sad it was fully specified, in the tenders. Mr Gifoscn—But it does not state here that we have anything better for £ 7 10s than the tender for E6 59. Mr Williams explained that it was a mis- take to refer in the minutes to the tender for E6 5s and the correction had been initialled by the Mayor. Mr Gibson—Then it is not correct. Mr Williams—No. Mr F Morgan—Why should Mr C M Wil- liams come here to sav what is correct and wht is not correct? The Mayor-I could have answered Mr Gibson, but it d'd not come to my mind. I remember initialling the correction. Mr Morgan again objected to Mr Williams giving the explanation and said that the Town Clerk should have been allowed to reply. The Mayor—Don't let us have a row at the commencement of the Council. Mr Gibson—We might as well have it at- the commencement as at the end. The Mayor—We don't want a row at all. Mr GibSon-You may have as much as you want. The Mayor—You will have the last word. Mr Morgan—You had it now. Mr Gibson—More last words. The minutes wero then signed M corrected. MISCELLANEOUS. Mr Nelson, solicitor to the Great Western Railway, wrote saying he could not give a definite answer about the Smithfield land until after Easter. The Town Clerk read & letter from Mr Baker saying the Committee having before them the Cambrian Railway Bill would meet en the 1st May and that he would report in due course. Lettem were read asking to be allowed to place chairs on the beach and to give ven- triloquial and punch and judy entertain- ments. Mr Hopkins proposed that the letters should be referred to the General Purposes Committee, but the Council agreed to follow the rule not to allow obstructions and en- tertainments on the beadh. A letter from Mr John Evans in respect of the pine end wall of the Library, sug- gesting that there should be a declaration that half of it belonged to the owners of No 15, was referred to the Finance Committee. A letter was read from Messrs Osborne saying they could not carry on business of brick-making at Aqua Terra on the condi- tions imposed by the Council and was referred to the Works Committee. Mr Morgan objected to anything being re- ferred to any committee and when Mr Doughton seconded Mr Wm Thomas that it »h<yoTd be so referred, said it was the usual matter of the blind following. The Mayor announced that he had sug- gested to Mr Grierson that there should be an excursion train run into Aberystwyth on the occasion of the opening of the Library and he had been kind enough to comply and deserved the thanks of the town. RIFLE SHOP. Mr Gibson said that- some time ago there was a d'scussion in the Council with regard to the purchase of a rifle for shooting animals at the Slaughter House. He would like to know if any correspondence had been re- ceived with reference to the fact that four or five shots were fired the other night in the Slaughter House from the rifle and landed in the signal box at the Station, as, he thought, it was stated at the time of the discussion that they would land somewhere. He under- stood that a communication had been sent bv the Stat;on Master. He asked for infor- mation for fear the Council would be liable m I, for manslaughter before they finished with the rifle. The Mayor and Town Clerk said they had received no communication. -Mr G'bson—Have you had anything ver- bally ? Mr Williams—We do not listen to gossip here Mr J T Davies said he was informed that when the riflf" was tested a shot was fired and it went through the signal box, through Piss Crag and up to the Buarth. (Laughter.) It must have been a good rifle. (Renewed laughter .> Mr F Morgan—It is not a matter for jok- ing. Something ought to be done to regu- late the rifle shooting. If the man was on duty at the signal box. he would have been killed. The Mayor—I suppose there will be a re- port. Mr Gibson—I do not suppose anything. 1 The Mayor—There is a supposition tl at a mm has been killed .or would be killed. Mr Gibson-There is no supposition at all. THE LIBRARY. The Committee reported that the tender of Messrs Edward Ellis and Sons, Little Dark- gate-street, for seventy-two chairs at eight shillings each had been accepted. A list was given of the newspapers and magazines (many of which were supplied gratis) to be placed in the Reading Room. The Chairman was authorised to purchase the best wire mat for the vestibule and also a revolving chair for the Librarian. The Committee discussed the arrangements for the opening ceremony of the new Library which included a proces- sion, the reception of Mrs Vaughan Davies, and presentation of key. The Chairman, assisted by the Town Clerk, were authorised to carry out the arrangements. Mr Gibson said he should like to ask why a few more members of the Council had not been asked to decide on the procession from the Town Hall to the Library. The whole thing had been cut and dried for them with- out asking them anything about it. It was ridiculous in a tea and coffee occasion like that that they should be asked to walk in procession from the Town Hall to the Library. The Mayor replied that he could explain and went on to say that he was away when the arrangement-s were made. Mr GibsoIl- Then you do not know any more about it than I do. The Mayor-When you are nnt a member of the Committee you can only accept their invitation. Mr Samuel said it was referred to the Lib- rary Committee to make arrangements for the 4opening ceremony. The report was adopted. THE HARBOUR. The Committee reported that they Cculd not recommend acceding to the request of Mr David Davies for a reduction of the rent of the shed held by him on Rofawr. It was recommended that the Harbour Master should be provided with a new uniform. The report was adopted. PUBLIC WORKS. The Committee approved of the plans presented by Mr J ORea of alterations to the White Horse Hotel and the shop adjoin- ing. The Town Clerk was directed to reolv to a letter from Mr Richard Davies, Corpora- tion-street, with reference to the claim for compensation in respect of the recent illness of his children. The Be-rough Surveyor was directed to report upon the application of the National Telephone Company fo- permission to erect two telephone poles in Queen 's-road. He was also instructed to report upon the i condition of the roadway between the house occupied (by Mr Tateham in Laurn-plac,, and 1 the Old Assembly Rooms and tue me-ans of di- verting the wnter surface with an estimate 1 of the cost, The Town Clerk was instructed to report upon the hoarding erected by the j Misses Owen at the rear of their premises in North-parade. The Committee recommended that the charge of 7s 6d. a vear for each; dwelling house and premises outside the j borough, the drains of which are connected with town sowers, should be claimed as and ] from March 25th last; "that 100 placards of 1 from March 25th last; "that 100 placards of } the posters issued by the Camberwe!! Corpora- tion on physical deterioration fnd alcoholism should be obtained at l*d. each and publ'sued in the borough that the plan of a cottage £ proposed to be erected bv Mr E Thomas, ttJlaSmith. near South Gate, should be ap- J proved; and that the Borau^h Surveyor } should order eighty tons of Portland cement s at 28s. lid. a ton delivered at the Harbour. The Borough Surveyor was directed to obtain further information from MeasrB Owen Brothers as to the materials to be used in the construction of the new roada proposed to be laid out by them in the "Lion" field. A further letter waa read from irir G D White calling attention to the continued default on the part of Messrs James, and the Town Clerk was instructed to again communicate with. Messrs James and, if necessary, to act upon the Council's instructions. The report was adopted. Mr Gibson said the contention of Mr Richard Davies was that thera was a. great nuisance from a shaft. There was supposed to ibe a report in reference to the matter. Would that come on ? The man went about and moant-busincss and he swore by all that waa right and just that his child died through the effects of the shaft. Something should be done in the matter. Mr Samuel said he had brought the jnatter forward several times, but the Medical Officer did not agree with him as to the nuisance. There had never been a report of the Com- mittee appointed to deal with the matter. To his mind there was a. nuisance and another medical man was of the same Pinion. The Surveyor said the Committee visited the place and he heard nothing "f it since. On the proposition of Mr Samuel, seconded by Mr Morgan, the matter was referred back, the Medical Officer and Surveyor being asked to report. The Surveyor reported that owing to the narrowness of the street where the National Telephone Company proposed putting the poles, he considered it unreasonable to grant the application and on the proposition of Alderman Joness, it was agreed not to grant permission. Mr W. Thomas rose to speak with regard to the charge for drains connected with town sewers after the Committee's recommenda- tion had been agreed to, and Mr Gibson pointed out that Mr Thomas was too late. Mr F Morgan—It is a bit Out of order. Mr Gibson—Put him down, sir. The Mayor having requested Mr Thomas not to speak, said he hoped all members would keep strictly to order. Mr Doughton—And listen to the chair. (Laughter.) The Mayor—We do not want any comment, Mr Doughton. FINANCE. The Finance Committee recommended the payment of bills as follows:—General district fund, £155 7s 4d; markets and slaughter house, J310 1st 6d waterworks, £92 18s 8d; paving loan capital account, £13 14s lOd; harbour, R34 12s 4d Burial Board £10 4s 7d borough fund, public library, JS27 10s., a total of £357 Os 3d..th regard to an application from Mr R R Ellis for the field in Trefechan recently surrendered by Mr D C Roberts, the Borough Surveyor was in- structed to present an estimate to the Com- mittee of the cost of fencing the field. The consideration of the question of the Bale of additional land in Smithfield-road to the Edu- cation Authority was deferred. It was decided to apply to the Education Authority for a course of lectures in cookery and laundry during the coming winter months. The Committee recommended that the Council should adhere to the terms of the offer made with reference to tà application of Mr J J James for a renewal of the lease of No. 15, Portland-street; that the application to the Public Works Loan Commissioners to advance £1,275, the amount authorised in respect of public conveniences, should be withdrawn and that the amount should be borrowed locally and for that purpose a» advertisement should be inserted in local newspapers; that the applications of Mr Joseph Davies in respect of No. 5, Penmaesglas-road, and Mrs Bate- man in respect of No. 21, Portland-street, for an extension of time to ca.rr"" out altera- tions to those premises should be granted until May 12th, 1907; and that the Town Clerk should report upon the terms upon which Mr Garner was allowed to erect stables in Portland-road. The Borough Sur- veyor was directed to consult with the Town Clerk and report upon the openings made in the-tboundary wall between the properties of Messrs Edwards Brothers and the Corpora- tion. Mr Gibson asked the chairman of the Mar- kets Committee (Mr Davies) a question about the rifle. He had not seen the bill for it and he should like to know if it had been paid for. He should also like to know who provided the cartridges for that rifle which carried all that distance. The rifle was no good without cartridges. He supposed if somebody got killed, they would be told that the Corporation bought the rifle only. Mr Davies replied that a cartridge was used only about once a week and it was bought by the Corporation and for by the Corporation. An invoice was before the Committee on Friday evening and if Mr Gib- son liked, he could have seen about the car- tridges. Mr Gibson added that there was a definite resolution by the Council to purchase a rifle, but no resolution to purchase cartridges. He calied attention to that at the time. The rifle cost say a guinea, but cartridges in twenty years might oost £20. Mr Williams proposed that Air R R Ellis's offer at the rate of JB5 a. year for the field lately occupied by Mr D 0 Roberts should be accepted as well as Mr Ellis's offer to fence the held and give up the tenancy when the Corporation required. The proposition was seconded and agreed to. Referring to the cookery lectures', the Mayor said an auctioneer had his goods out- side the Town Hail to be taken inside for a! sale on the following day, but owing to the cookery classes being held there, the auc- tioneer was compelled to pay double as the goods had to be removed at night. The Borough Accountant knew nothing as to who gave permission or who were paid for the use of the Hall. Mr Williams said he supposed the cookery classes were carried on under the supervision of the old School Board and permission was given to hold the classes at the Town Hall in connection with the elementary school. Alderman Jones would remember that. Mr F Morgan asked why Mr Wm Thomas could not explain ? The Mayor—-Why do you want to speak ? Mr Williams—We do not want any more of this bickering. Mr Morgan—Why should I not speak as well as Mr Williams? The Mayor—Then why do you not rise on your feet P Mr Morgan—I will when you sit down. The Mayor—Then I give you the opportu- nity. Mr Morgan thought the explanation should have been given by Mr Wm. Thomas, who was chairman of the old School Board, and not bv anybody else. The report was then adopted and on the proposition of Mr Williams, it was also agreed to affix the seal to mortgages of £100 in fav- our of Mrs Margaret Evans, 28, North-parade and of £175 in favour of Mrs Bilen Vaughan, 28, North-parade, being part of the amount sanctioned for the purchase of the limekilns property; and to a mortgage c £ JB500 in favour of the trustees of the Penrhyncooh Friendly Society, (being part of the author- ised loan for public conveniences. WATER SUPPLY. The next subject on the agenda was to con- sider the estimate of the Surveyor as to the cost of providing a supply of water to the houses proposed to be erected by Messrs Owen in the Lion Field. Mr Morgan—I want to know how this matter came on the agenda. The Mayor—Do you propose it ? Mr Morgan—No. The Mayor—Then will you resume your seat until it is proposed and seconded. Mr Gibson—Who is the father of it? The Town Clerk asked to be allowed to make an explanation, but Mr Morgan ob- jected to the Town Clerk speaking on the ground that the Mayor hsd refused to allow him (Mr Morgan) to speak. The Mayor—You are out of order. The Town Clerk is an official Mr Davies proposed the adoption of the words of the agenda, remarking that they were harmless. Mr Gibson- Ye-s. on the face of them. Mr Morgan said he should like to ask the Chairman of the Works Committee whether he was the means of putting the notice on the agenda and whether the Surveyor had the estimate. Alderman Jones replied that that matter was considered by the Committee a fortnignt or three weeks ago and the Surveyor wanted further information as to the s te moftt j^uit- able to command that and adjoining property and the Surveyor was asked to mature a scheme embracing the advantage of the dif- ferent matters and report to the Committee. Mr Williams proposed that if ..1e Surveyor had his ^ptimate and report that they should be referred to the Works Committee. Mr Morgan said he wanted the Surveyor's renlv. The Surveyor he had the estimate and report with him in that meeting. Mr Gibson (1,: d not think that Mr Morgan had had an answer to former question and he (Mr Gibson) should like to have the an- swer. How came that matter on the agenda ? That waa a plain-sailing question. (There being no answer, Mr Gibson said "Nobody.") Mr Wm Thomas—Let the Town Clerk an- swer. Mr Hopkins-Perhaps one of the sleeping partners. The Mayor—Really, I am thunderstruck with the conduct of members of the Coun- cil. Mr Hughes will you reply? The Town Clerk replied that for the moment he had not the resolution of the Council before him. There was an instruc- tion that the estimate should be placed on the agenda for consideration. He misunder- stood the effect of the resolution and placed the notice on the agenda M it appeared that day. He was entirely responsible for the form in which it appeared and it arose out of a misunderstanding. Mr Davies-So really you are the father of it, Mr Hughes. Mr Gibson—But not before it came before the Committee. Can we have the wording of the resolution ? The Town Clerk—I will refer to the re- solution. It was placed on the agenda on my own responsibility acting in conformity with the resolution which I find I have mistaken Mr Wm Thomas—Were you prompted by any member ? The Mayor—Never mind that, Mr Thomas. Mr Gibson—Oh, no, of course not. Mr Morgan—Why should you, Mr Mayor, al!ow Mr Thomas to impute motives? The Mayor—I will not allow Mr Thomas or anybody else. Mr Williams proposed that the report and estimate should be referred to the Commit- tee. Mr Hopkins asked that the report should be read out so that the ratepayers might get hold of it and see what was going on. Then t'hey could be considered at the next meet- ing. The members would not know what the report was on Fridav night. He proposed that it should be read by the Surveyor that night. Mr Samuel said he had no objection to that. At the Committee meeting he suggested that the Council should negotiate with the Rev John Morgan for land at a higher elevation and the Surveyor was directed to commu- nicate with him and bring in an amended scheme. That would appear in the report on the agenda for the next meeting. Alderman Jones said it would mean an out- lay of between JB600 and JB700 and it was im- portant that the report and estimate should appear on the agenda for the consideration of all the details. The matter was then referred to the Com- mittee whose report will appear on the next agenda. LEASE. An application by Mr D 0 Owen for a re- newal of the lease of 54, North-parade, was referred to the Finance Committee. ABOLITION OF THE GENERAL PUR- POSES COMMITTEE. ROWDY SCENES. The final matter on the agenda was the fol- lowing notice of motion by the Mayor:— "That inasmuch as the majority of the mem- bers of the General Purposes Committee have declined to attend any future meetings of that Committee unless certain offensive re- marks made by Councillor J Gibson (the ohairman of the Committee) affecting them are withdrawn, and as the business of the said Committee has been in consequence de- layed owing to the difficulty in fonning a quorum, it is desirable that the said Com- mittee be dissolved. That the resolution ap- pointing the General Purposes Committee for the year 1905-06, be rescinded." The Mayor—Well, gentlemen, I regret very much that this resolution had to be put on the agenda. The responsibility, I can as- sure you, is off my shoulders'. I wrote on March 31st from London to Councillor Gib- [ son —— Mr Gibson—Very impertinently, I thought. | The Mayor—It does not signify what you thought. Mr Gibson—But I thought so. I wish to say here before you leave it that I deny Captain Doughton's right to be my judge or to ask me anything about my conduct on this Council. T am one of sixteen members of the Council and the ratepayers are my judges and I deny the right of Captain Doughton in his impertinence to judge my oonduct on the Council to suit his conveni- ence. The Mayor asked the Town Clerk to read his letter together with Councillor Gibson's reply. Mr Gibson—There is no need for the Town Clerk to read my reply. I have it here and I can read it. The Town Clerk (reading the Mayor's let- ter)—■" 6, Prospect-street, Piccadilly, Lon- don." —— Mr Gibson—Where ? The Town Clerk" having repeated the ad- dress, proceeded—"Dear Mr Gibson,—I have as you will have seen by the agenda, placed a notice of a resolution with a view to dis- solving the General Purposes Committee. I have taken this course in what I believe to be the interests of the ratepayers. You have on several occasions referred to certain mem- bers as The Blind Following" —— Mr Gibson—Quite right, blind following; and they are blind too. ( The Town Clerk—" And this has given of- fence to those members and they have, as you know, declined to attend any further meet- ings of the Committee unless those remarks are withdrawn. I have done my utmost to induce you to withdraw them, but 'have failed so far. Owing to my absence in London, I shall have to ask that 4he notion may stand adjourned and it has occurred to me that this will afford another opportu- nity of ending what is to my mmd a dis- creditable state of things. I appeal to you to reconsider the matter and to comply with the reasonable request made and it is hardly (necessary for me to add that I shall be only too pleased to ask permission to withdraw the notice. Kindly reply.—Yours truly, T. Doughton."—The Town Clerk also read the reply of Councillor Gibson, which was dated 26, North-parade, April 2nd:—" Dear sir, I did not receive your letter until six o'clock to-night (Monday). According to the date, I ought to have received it earlier. I believe there is a Blind Following in the Coun- cil, which acts greatly to the detriment of the ratepayers and is moved by unworthy personal animosity. I will not withdraw anything I have said and you can mova your resolution to abolish the General Purposes Committee when it is convenient to Oll. I am acting in the interests of the tatepajers and am prepared to take the consequences." Mr F. Morgan—Hear, hear. The Mayor—Mr Gibson has time after time repeated remarks with regard to the Wind following which is obviously meant to be in- sulting and humiliating to certain v,embers of the Council ——— Mr Gibson—It is nevertheless true, sir. The Mayor—Simply because ihey ao rot see as Mr Gibson wishes to dictate to them Mr F Morgan—Do not read, Mr Mayor. Speak out your speech. Mr Williams—Order, order. Mr Gibson—It is all right. The Mayor-I do not read. Mr F Morgan—Then do not read. The Mayor—I expected this. Mr Davies objected to Mr Morgan inter- rupting. At present speeches were read in Parliament. He did not know if Mr Morgan I was so thick-headed that he could 11 ,)t read hL own remarks. Mr Gibson-I object to that. Mr Morgan—It is not parliamentary usage to read speeches. I object to the remark of Mr Davies. He cannot speak at all. Mr Davies—You cannot speak. Mr Wm Thomas (reprovingly)—Mr Davies. Mr Gibson—What more do you want than to allow one member to call another thick- headed ? The Mayor-Following vour example. Mr Davies—If I have a speech in front of me. I am not to be told I shall not read it. Mr Gibson-Quit-e r'l^ht. The Mayor (proceeding to read)--Mr Gibson has time after time repeated the remarks as to the blind following which is obviously, meant to be insulting and humiliating to cer- tain members of ths Council. Mr Gibson—Well done. That is well- learnt. The Mayor—Simply because they cannot see as Mr Gibson wishes to dictate to them. Mr Gibson has had every opportunity of avoiding this coming on. Mr Gibson—And pray who are you ? (Order, order.) Did you ever hear such a thing in all your life? Mr Morris—He is mayor of the town. Mr Gibson—It is gross impertinence. The Mayor—In order to prevent any dead- lock in the business of the town, I thought it my duty to place this notice on the agenda and have it passed and dissolve the commit- tee of Mr Gibson is chairman. Mr Morgan—I rise to a point of order. The Mayor—You are out of order. Mr Morgan—I beg your pardon. I am in order. Mr Gibson (to Mr Morgan)-Let him go on. I going to reply, The Mayor (shouting to Mr Morgan)—Re- srmo vour seat. Resume your seat. Mr Hopkins—Mr Morgan can rise to a point of order. Mr Morgan (shouting)—I rise to a point of order and I defy you to stop me. I want to know how he says he is going to pass this. (Uproar.) The Mayor (to the Council)—If you don't support the chair. (Cries of "chair.") I am not going to vacate the chair. Mr Morgan (still shout ng in order to make himself heard above the uproar)—I want to know how the Mayor says he is going to get this motion passed. How does he know he can get it pamed ? Mr Daniel Thomas—He does not say so. Mr Morgan-He does say so. (Uproar.) I I am in order and I am not going to s'it down. I am in order and the Mayor is out of order. The Mayor-Are you going to support the chair ? Mr Morgan-No, if you are going on in this way. You say I am going to propose and pass this motion. I want to know whether the Mayor is in order when he gets up and says he is going to pass it? (Uproar.) The Mayor-I appeal to members not to take any notice of Mr Morgan's remarks. Mr Morgan (still shouting)—And I appeal to the Council not to take any notice of Captain Doughton. (Uproar). You can go on and I can go on at this too. I am going on a point of order and I am perfectly en- titled to do it. We have had enough of this business. The Mayor—Now, gentlemen, what are you going to do ? Mr Morgún-I want to know whether the Mayor or anybody else is in order in saying he is going to propose and get it passed? ¡ Mr Davies—Speak plain, man. J Mr Gibson—Yes, it is all out and dried. The Mayor—I appeal to ever-" member of the Council not to take notice of any offen- sive remarks from Mr Fred Morgan or Mr Gibson. Mr Morgan-And I appeal to the Council to take no notice of the remarks from Cap- tain Doughton. I am perfectly entitled to rise to a point of order. Mr Gibson—Let somebody second it and I will have a go. Mr Hopkins rose to a point of order., but Mr Morgan said the resolution had not been seconded. The Mayor—Well, I propose the adoption of the resolution. Mr Gibson (after a pause)—Come. Some member of the blind following will second it. Somdoody will back it up surely. If nobody will, I will back it up myself. (Laughter.) Mr W Thomas-I rise. Mr Gibson—Now we have it. Mr W Thomas—I rise to second the resolu- tion and I am not going to follow in any direction that is to the detriment of the town. Mr F. Morgan accentuated the remarks, sarcastically imitating the marks of approval as if in chapel. Mr W. Thomas-It is time to be cool and collected. Mr Gibson—Especially collected. Mr W Thomas-I cannot help throwing my mind back-- Mr F Morgan-Where to, Salem ? Mr W Thomas—Looking over the support received by Aberystwyth in times gone by and is still receiving from people outside, if we only 'look round to the gran building on the Buarth. Mr Gibson-Oh, rubbish. Let him speak to the resolution. We do not want to travel all round it. Mr Morgan (to Mr Thomas)—And you tried your ebest against it. Mr Thomas-It was weil supported by ot her people and we are fortunate in many ways. My own opinion is that the wav certain gen- tlemen act—if they were paid for it they could not serve our enemies any better. Mr Gibson-The blind following, for in- stance. Mr Thomas-And I do feet that the time has come in the interests of tl10 town when we should put an end to this mode of con- ducting the business of the town. (Hear, hear.) Mr Morgan-You helped it. The Mayor—Order. Mr Thomas—Do not trouble, Mr Mayor. Mr Morgan—Everywhere you have been, you have been the same. Mr Thomas—Coming to the question dir- ectly before us, I do not believe that the Chairman of the General Purposes Committee would wish that those whom he has spoken of not only in the terms you referred to, but in other terms as well-- Mr Gibson—I rise to a point of order. Is Mr William Thomas speaking to the resolu- tion? There is a particular wording in this resolution. I suppose he will stick to it. I. you are going to travel all over the world, I can do the same. Mr Thomas-I do not think that the Chair- man of the General Purposes Committee would wish such,monlibers to attend the Com- mittee at afi. I for one give him credit-- Mr GibsOlll- You need not give me credit. I would not have your good wishes for any- thing. I told you before what you are. You are a pious hypocrite and nothing else. Mr Thomas—I do not think he is anxious te see members of the Council he has referred to upon his committee at all. Mr Gibson-I do not want anv patronage. Mr W Thomas—On the other hand- Mr Gibson-Yes, let us have the other hand. Mr Thomas-I take it that the majority of the Council—— Mr Morgan-The blind follotwing. Mr Thomas—Have no desire to attend the Committee. Under these circumstances, I have great pleasure in seconding the pro- position. Mr Gibson-no only sincere word you have uttered to-night. I am SUr" you have much pleasure in seconding the proposition. Mr Wm. Thomas—If this is oarried- Mr Morgan—Oh, you say "U" now. Mr Wm Thomas—If we require any further proof of the need of this resolution, we have it amply to-night. It is proved up to the hilt to-night. Let mq remind you- Mr Gibson-You have not another hand to go on, have you? Mr Williams—Order. Mr Wm Thomas—We are accused of doing something behind the scenes. There is some- thing behind continually. It is well known that we are accused of that. On the other hand, when we are anxious to bring things before the public such as the bih of costs in the case of Fear, we are accused again of doing wrong. Mr Gibson—Oh dear. Mr Hopkins Mr William Thomas is a much better man on his knees than on his feet. Mr Morgan.—It is very funny. Why do we not have the bill ot oosts on the other side too. The Mayor—Order. Mr Morgan-I call Mr Wm. Thomas to order. I have asked heaps and heaps of times about the other side of the bill of ooste and I think I am entitled to credit for get- ting everything open. °* Mr Gibson—Stick them to the resolution Mr Mayor, or you will never get through the business. The Mayor—Never mind. I am prepared to go on all night. Mr Gibson—So am I. The Mayor—Go on, Mr Thomas. Mr W IhDmas-I would have sat down be. fore now were it not for the eloquence of cer- tain gentlemen. Mr Morgan—You have no eloquence. Mr Wm. Thomas—Where they have been this afternoon I do not know. They have been having tea somewhere, but where they have had their tea I do not know. (Laugh- ter.) Mr Gibson—They have not had tea. They have had stout under the table. Mr Morgan-We have not been to the Guardians' committee this afternoon. Mr Wm. Thomas-I propose this resolution as a matter off duty. Mr Gibson—Oh, you propose it now. You want to propose as well as second it. Mr Hcpkins—Are you sure you are correct in the way you put this resolution on the paper—"That inasmuch as the majority of the members of the General Purposes Com- mittee have declined to attend any future meetings." How can you prove that the majority won't attend the meetings? The Mayor—Whatever remarks you have to make, make them and I will answer after- wards. Mr Hopkins—You are taking advantage of the members who were ill and could not come to the Committee. There were Mr. Palmer, Mr David Roberts, myself, and others who were ill and could not attend. You took advantage with the rest of the blind following to fool them and qto- the Com- mittee going on. Is that right on your part ? The Mayor-I will not condescend to answer. Mr Hopkins—No, you are too big to answer anything. The Mavor-I am very glad I am. Mr Hopkins—I know you are. You do not want a vote to-night for the secretaryship of the lifeboat or for the aldermanship of the Council. The Mayor—You are out of order. Mr Gibson—Not a bit. Mr Hopkins—If you wanted a vote you would visit me half a dozen times a day. Mr Davies-Mr Hopkins. vou are going out of the resolution. The lifeboat has nothing to do with this. Mr Hopkim-He is too big to answer me. I have been in the chair before him and con- ducted the meetings better than he has. He has only got the Council out of order and Mr Wm. Thomas before him. Are vou going to do away with the best man on the Council, the best chairman that has been on a com- mittee and who carried on the business of the Finance Committee when he was chairman and left Cl,200 behind or else we would not have the rates so low this year. The Mayor-Hear, hear. Mr Hopkins—And Mr 0 M Williams got the benefit of it. Mr Williams would not have taken the Committee twelve months ago but for that, when all the tblunders had been got away. Mr W Thomas—Do not shout. You mako our heads ache. Mr Daniel Thomas—Did he give that money out of his own pocket? Mr Hopkins'—No, he got the money. Mr Daniel Thomas—Where did he gf't it from ? Mr Hopkins—I will not answer you. You are not worth answering. He is < he one that got the books and accounts of the Council put right. I do not know where you would all be if Mr Gibson was not there to )-ut the books and Mr King to put the rccounts in order. The Mayor—Oh, the Lord save us Mr Hopkins—Yes, save you. He hos you for many years. (Great laughter.) It' he had not saved you. I do not know wlHe you would be. Mr Gibson (to the Mayor)—Before you put it to the vote, I should like to say a mrd. I take it that your resolution is practically a personal attack upon myself. The Mayor-Not at all. Mr Hopkins—Nothing else. Mr Gibson—Whether so or not I will ti(at it as' such. I don't care twopence for the chairmanship of the General Purposes Com- mittee any more than I cared when I was turned out of the chairmanship of the Fi- nance Committee; but you have been gl. od enough, sir, to go on and say that I am to be turned out because I have said in this Council there is a blind following. That -'s a perfectly harmless thing to say unless some people are very irritable indeed. I do not think I have done wrong in say:ng there is a blind following. But the point is this, that certain members know there is a blind fol- lowing. There is a certain diffidence in the Council in bringing things up to the public. There are certain members 'who think tl ev would frighten me by putting th's on the agenda. You gave me an opportunity of be- ing frightened a fortnight ago, but I was not frightened. I was very much amused at your gross impertinence. Still, as we have gone into the sins of members of the Council and the fact that one member has called a set of members a blind following has been taken to heart, I have taken the trouble to take out from the papers an account of the discus- sions when you, sir, were not one of the at- tached—one of the men who could not be dic- tated to. Mr Morgan-Or bought. Mr Gibson—When you, sir, were yourself a free lance. On November 10th, 1893, Cap- ta/n Doughton said "We can get on very well without Mr C M Williams." I never said that. When I said "blind following," I never got quite so far as that. On November 24th you, who have made yourself my judge and censor, said, referring to Mr Williams, "that if ever there was an office grabber he was one." I have never said that. That is not my offence. All I said was that there is in the Council a blind following which has neither body nor soul. Capt Dough'on on that occasion said that Mr C M Williams was nothing but an office grabber and he repeated it. "Alderman Williams," con- tinued the report, said he knew that Captain Doughton oould so've diffi- cult problems, but how could a man attend two meetings at the same time? Captain Doughton replied that his eonduct in all parts of the world could be looked into. Mr Will'.amis was a foreigner and had a history. He had better shut up. (Laughter.) I have never to'd anybody to shut up. "Mr Wil- liams," continued the report, said he came to Aberystwyth a respectable man and meant to stop there. He did not mean to go away until he died. Aberystwyth was a very nice place." I quite agree. "Captain Doughton then said—referring to Mr Wil'iams—YTour star sir, has passed its meridian and is going down the western horizon very fast." You remember those happv days, sir, when you were a free lance? (Laughter.) The Mayor-Yes. Mr Gibson-And to-day you are my judge and my censor. The Mayor—That is a little bit original. Mr Gibson—We will have a little bit more. The report goes on—" Alderman Williams: I must say that Captain Doughton is a great authority on manv questions.—Captain Doughton I tell you you had better be quiet. -Alderman Williams: Your conduct is too shameful. I appeal to members if you are going to allow this.—Alderman Green: What is all this about?—The Mayor (leaving the chair): I close the meeting." (Laughter.) That is about you, sir. my censor to-night. The Mayor—Nothing at all to do with it. Mr Gibson—So you have broken up one meeting since you have been on the Couno l. You who are now the sreat stickler for abso- You who are now the sreat stickler for abso- lutely straight conduct. However, let us have a little bit more. "On April 24, 1894, Captain Doughton reminded Mr Williams that he was not infallible and it was dimply disgusting to hear such long-winded speeches. It was enough to disgust anybody.—Mr Wil- liams said that Captain Doughton was unfair in trying to mislead the public. He ought to be ashamed to make such remarks.—Capt Doughton: You ought to be ashamed. My conduct ia known all over the world. You are a foreigner." Mr Williams) did not mind that much. Then on August 10th, 1894, Captain Doughton retorted that it was ridi- culous nonsense to propose gates and asked Mr Williams not to run away with the idea that he was the only wise man in the Coun- cil. Mr Williams replied that at any rate he was not the only unwise, man in the Coun- cil. Captain Doughton then thought it a great pity they had not landed Mr W-illiams in Carmarthen Asylum." You said he was not the only wise man. I have never said anything so hard, particularly about my friend Mr Williams. And then Carmarthen Asylum. Surely I have never said anything as bad as that. "Mr Williams replied that he should be glad if Captain Doughton was in the Asylum, as he did not appear to have more sense than those who were there. He ought to be ashamed of himself. Captain Doughton said he was not ashamed, but would he if he was a man like Mr Williams." Let those who put this matter on the agenda think of that. I do not look up to you as a judge or grant you have any right to ar-k me to withdraw any words I have said in which I only called some" people a Mind following. You are the man to question mv right to withdraw any words' I have sa.id in ihich I only called some people a blind following. You are the man to question my ight to speak. Mr Morris is getting impatie.it. Be patient Mr Morris. At this stage, Mr F Mor and the Mayor were passing remarks across the table and pointing their fingers at cue -tnotber. Mr Gibson-Lt't me go on. Fred. (Laugh- ter.) "Alderman Williams said that Captain Doughton was hardly fit to mix up with re- spectable men. Captain Doughton replied, when there were loud cries of Order.' Cap- tain Doughton, however, continued to say that it was ridiculous; that Mr Williams acted as if he was a lord duke: and that he would I \vrir m fc name that would stick to him. Mr Williams replied that he was not auite up to Captain Doughton's standard of foolishness. it WO-" sheer madness. Captain Doughton ,id that Mr 0 M Williams was nothing bet- ter than a Carmarthen sweep and that he had f £ m<Tv,r the smut in his face." That is vou, the Mayor of the town. who thinks he can nictate a oourse of conduct to a man who has only called a bunch of members a blind °Tn.W1Tvlr' a not name you then. Ihe Mayor—Go ahead. a Packed one, but I may s^lsfy«ven y°u. "On December T' 1895, Captain Doughton Ccont:nuin^ after being interrupted by Mr C M Williams) tion ofl188i:thJ1St m Town Council Sec- tion ot 1881 the very same person was rejected by the whole town and at the last Board of Guardians election he was rejected in his ravourite ward where the tea and pennv bun is distributed yearly. Fancv the very Chair man of the said Board of Guardians kicked out unceremoniously m his very stron^hoVI Mr Williams: Oh, leave him alone to read hTs penny sermon." Mr Morgan accuses vou to night< of that. "Captain Doughton: Oh thrt is the dictator of the whole^Coimo'l — Alderman Palmer: Then somebody is a liar Captain Doughton: You are a liar yourqelf. (Uproar.)" That is you yourself. You called a member of the Council a liar. On January 1R96, the report co-nt C,.ptqiil Doughton (rllu'ding to Alderman Palmer): The statement of Mr Pannier is nothing bnt •>. fabrication of falsehood. Later on, Captain Doughton to Mr Robert Dousrhton (contempt- uously): You are ;1, fine bodv! Ever since I have been on the Council you have been no- thing but a laughing stock." That is from (Continued on Page 7.)